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| Message Subject: state record catches and forward facing sonar | |||
cabbage |
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Posts: 30 | Should State and or World Record catches that were caught utilizing Forward Facing Sonar be considered legitimate? Should they be going forward? Boone and Crocket sets limitations on similar technology (cell phone trail cams for instance) when it comes to hunting as it infringes on the idea of what is considered a "fair chase" hunt. I agree with Boone and Crocket's philosophy when it comes to record fish catches. I'd go as far as to say utilizing live bait also infringes upon the "fair chase" idea. | ||
| North of 8 |
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| So only forward facing sonar? But you are OK with sonar, Mega DI/SI? Maps provided by a third party for a hefty price are OK? Pre pandemic I attended a seminar where a well known guide showed screen shots of two musky below his boat on standard sonar. Clients dropped suckers down to the right depth and boated both. Would that be ok? I understand forward facing sonar is a hot topic. It is something I don't have and at my age am not likely to buy. But not sure how you make just one electronic aid out of bounds while leaving all others in bounds. | |||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | VV Edited by Angling Oracle 3/22/2024 3:21 PM | ||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | This Hank Parker take is interesting. As far as making rules - lots of limitations. https://youtu.be/3FJVq90_CYU?si=8bzV4yOxosXmqOzb&t=178 Another take right off the Bassmaster site: https://www.bassmaster.com/column/keith-combs/the-effect-of-forward-... Sort of comical out on Lake Winnipeg here watching the FFS equipped snowbears and ice castles do merry-go-rounds checking holes with FFS "Yup, enough fish in range." "Nope, move along - to the the next predrilled hole." "Fish here now, set it down." What a disgrace! Everyone else knows exactly what's going on - if the snowbear stops briefly, no fish in area and best to move on. If it stops...well. All you need is binos, you don't need to do any work on your own. For our main trip we go where no one in sight (or within 10 miles) fortunately. The dark side (aka FFS) has a strong appeal. It can only get worse. The idea that we should embrace new/technology, what the new kids on the block desire is nonsense. Look at the fly fishing world, they stuck to tradition and fair chase, so can everyone else. Should be banned. Edited by Angling Oracle 3/22/2024 3:22 PM | ||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | North of 8 - 3/22/2024 2:22 PM So only forward facing sonar? But you are OK with sonar, Mega DI/SI? Maps provided by a third party for a hefty price are OK? Pre pandemic I attended a seminar where a well known guide showed screen shots of two musky below his boat on standard sonar. Clients dropped suckers down to the right depth and boated both. Would that be ok? I understand forward facing sonar is a hot topic. It is something I don't have and at my age am not likely to buy. But not sure how you make just one electronic aid out of bounds while leaving all others in bounds. So when you come up here and you watch two $120K Rangers with 20-somethings chase a musky of a reef topping out at 1 ft out over into 100 ft of water where they commence to start rip-jigging around it with bondies and bulldawgs, you are content with that being okay? (not a typo - two boats at once from different angles). I couldn't believe my eyes... Happened on a spot I fish up here (a community one). FFS is a disgrace Edited by Angling Oracle 3/22/2024 3:28 PM | ||
| happy hooker |
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Posts: 3136 | If your fishing with a guide and you catch a record should you get credit for it or the guide | ||
| North of 8 |
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Angling Oracle - 3/22/2024 3:26 PM North of 8 - 3/22/2024 2:22 PM So only forward facing sonar? But you are OK with sonar, Mega DI/SI? Maps provided by a third party for a hefty price are OK? Pre pandemic I attended a seminar where a well known guide showed screen shots of two musky below his boat on standard sonar. Clients dropped suckers down to the right depth and boated both. Would that be ok? I understand forward facing sonar is a hot topic. It is something I don't have and at my age am not likely to buy. But not sure how you make just one electronic aid out of bounds while leaving all others in bounds. So when you come up here and you watch two $120K Rangers with 20-somethings chase a musky of a reef topping out at 1 ft out over into 100 ft of water where they commence to start rip-jigging around it with bondies and bulldawgs, you are content with that being okay? (not a typo - two boats at once from different angles). I couldn't believe my eyes... Happened on a spot I fish up here (a community one). FFS is a disgrace Again, can't you see something similar with SI? My point is not to defend FFS but just pointing out that all electronics give you an edge. Two years ago I was crossing a lake to hit a reed bed, noticed a bait ball on my SI and just past the bait ball, a big fish mark. Continued on, rigged a trolling rod and on my second pass caught a musky 30 yards past the bait ball. Without SI would not have seen either the bait or the fish out to the side of my boat. The OP would allow a record fish caught using SI in that manner but not FFS. How do you draw a line that fine? | |||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | I know where you are coming from North of 8. I think I can pull you to my side of the anit-FFS argument still, so I see you as more a potential ally on this issue than not. Sure, all these advances prior have given us anglers advantages as I laid out in the PMTT ban thread that is currently in the recycle bin. FFS is this sort of perverse fish-radar system that takes most of the skill out of fishing - as shown by the Bass tournament results, crappie populations being decimated, the walleye stuff I mentioned, and so on. Is everyone ethically challenged that are using it? Of course not. But it's taking fishing to a place that is not good, that is for sure. As far as the OP - I'm saying the technology itself should be made illegal - so my argument is indirect. As far as the world record, if legally caught, then it's legal. Then it would have to meet the standards of the world record authority being applied for. Edited by Angling Oracle 3/22/2024 4:22 PM | ||
| North of 8 |
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| Not really on any side. Just an old guy that remembers when folks thought trolling motors should not be allowed, too big an advantage to wealthier anglers, you should either drift or row. First sonars, same thing. I do get that FFS is different and perhaps is not sporting. But need to remember, just finding a musky is only part of it. About 10 years ago, I was getting boat ready to go out, standing on my dock. Neighbor about 200 feet away had been casting, thought he was killing time until his brother got to the boat. He called over that there was musky cruising the shore, headed my way. Grabbed a rod and there it was, about 20 ft away. Pulled a double 8 with brass blades past his nose 4 or 5 times, with only a slight movement on the fish's part. Grabbed a rod with a top water on and on the fourth pass got a follow out of it before it turned away and headed for deeper water. Neighbor put 20 or more casts right in front of it. Same result. | |||
| cabbage |
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Posts: 30 | Yes. I am ok with sonar. Trolling motors. GPS etc. I think Forward Facing Sonar takes away from the mystique and spirit of "the chase" and gives the angler a more significant edge than the other technologies discussed. The next technology to come out will give the angler an even greater edge than even FFS. At some point we have to decide where to draw the line and ask ourselves what are we really doing. To each their own I suppose, but most importantly we have to be honest about the impact it has on the resource and how that effects everyone who would like to partake. This little discussion I think is a great illustration or microcosm of societies relationship with technology (AI included) at the moment and how it is effecting the human experience for better or worse. It's difficult trying to do the right thing as technology advances in its capability and complexity at an exponential rate. Discussions need to be had before we end up somewhere we didn't expect. | ||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Great take Cabbage. Instead of enjoying chatting your buddies and watching the eagles, ravens and otters you can do this: https://youtu.be/pttXok0HTQU?si=1g6_yWx5yFqDFNXf&t=646 "The future is here." No thanks. Edited by Angling Oracle 3/22/2024 5:38 PM | ||
| Kirby Budrow |
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Posts: 2276 Location: Chisholm, MN | I guess I don't really care how the record is caught. I just like to see what the potential of the species is. But FFS should be banned. If we're talking about technology being "cheating" from the start like trolling motors, then we should go back to nets and spears or maybe a cane pole. The line needs to be drawn at FFS. It's too much. If you haven't used it then your opinion isn't really valid either. Unless the fish are pinned to the bottom you can almost drive around and take a population estimate of an entire lake in a day. That takes away the mystery and takes away any challenge in catching them. | ||
| North of 8 |
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| Kirby, I have not used FFS. But, they have marvelous technology today that allows you to see folks using it, with screen close ups, etc. Larry Smith did a segment for instance on fishing for salmon in the MKE area using FFS and catching salmon after salmon while nearby boats were not catching anything. They actually had two units operating. So, yes, you can still have a valid opinion if you don't have one. I don't know if FFS is evil, or not. Over the last 40+ years I have heard a lot of folks condemning new technology. 50 years ago, compound bows were the devil's work. When was the last time you used a recurve or a long bow? Separating Luddites from those genuinely concerned about a resource is always a challenge. | |||
| Baby Mallard |
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| I think any new record catches using FFS deserve at least an asterisk or even a whole separate category of records. Just like in MLB baseball with the steroid area and all the homerun records also got an asterisk. I'm actually in agreement with everyone in this discussion but I will say FFS is a bigger advantage than any other technology invented related to fishing up to this point. This winter in MN I saw over half the anglers using FFS on the lakes that I was fishing and to me that was alarming. Great discussion and responses. Edited by Baby Mallard 3/22/2024 7:31 PM | |||
| raftman |
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Posts: 516 Location: WI | I feel like this conversation is less about “fair chase” and more about “fishing is changing from what I feel it should be and that’s not fair.” Tough. You all want GPS, side imaging, sonar, 1 foot contour maps, stealthy trolling motors, and whatever else to help quickly learn water and catch more fish but it should just stop at FFS because it’s not “fair chase”? Creating a line at this point seems disingenuous. You all have been feeding the demand for better technology so find another hobby if you don’t like today’s fishing. Fishing will be fine. Edited by raftman 3/23/2024 8:02 AM | ||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | raftman - 3/23/2024 7:37 AM I feel like this conversation is less about “fair chase” and more about “fishing is changing from what I feel it should be and that’s not fair.” Tough. You all want GPS, side imaging, sonar, 1 foot contour maps, stealthy trolling motors, and whatever else to help learn quickly learn water and catch more fish but it should just stop at FFS because it’s not “fair chase”? Creating a line at this point seems disingenuous. You all have been feeding the demand for better technology so find another hobby if you don’t like today’s fishing. Fishing will be fine. Ha! I don't need tech, neither does Kirby, Mallard, North of 8 et al. We'd all get along fine without it. Did you read your own post? "at this point" What does that mean? You are implying there is a line. But you are fooling yourself, YOU DON'T HAVE A LINE. We care about the resource, you care about you (in the collective sense, you being the detached from nature crowd). Take a moment to think about what is really important and why you enjoy being outdoors; maybe you will start to get where we are coming from. FFS and whatever the future developments in it are are not going to be making the collective fishing experience better, it it only going to get worse, much worse here on out. This is why we have made it a line, for no other reason. "So find another hobby if you don’t like today’s fishing!" Needs to be put on a t-shirt. Edited by Angling Oracle 3/23/2024 8:56 AM | ||
| North of 8 |
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| Oracle, can you provide some specifics on how FFS is going to make the collective fishing experience worse? I have no plans to purchase, but would like some objective data on what the technology does to harm the fishing experience. I have read how in one instance a team in a PMTT event cleaned up using the tech, but in other cases those using it did no better than teams without. It seems that in every tournament before FFS someone figures out a pattern, a bait, etc. and has an edge. My neighbors from IL a few years ago won the Hodag Musky Challenge, a multiple lake event, by committing to a small section of one lake in the chain I live on. They spent the whole tournament in an area with a less than 200 yard radius. I saw them pre-fishing the weekend before, doing the same thing. No special tech, just deciding that they had a good idea. | |||
| 7.62xJay |
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Posts: 480 Location: NW WI | Per the few Archery analogies, the archery communities have been having this exact discussion for a long time. Kinda think of it like this. Boat motor=traditional bow Trolling motor=Compund Sonar= Xbow Modern Sonar = Modern Xbow(Ravens,Mission 1, Ten Points,etc. Capable of 100yd) FFS=Airbow The current analogy discussion there is the evolution of airguns/airbows. Fair chase archers argue against Airbows and of those in the "Nay" some are against Modern Xbows and Some argue "what's the difference? Both are just a trigger pull". In my personal opinion the archery season should be managed kind of similar to Spring Turkey. Give the Traditional guys the 1st 1-2 weeks, than weeks 3-4 open to traditional and compound, and than weeks 5-6 open to traditional,compound,Xbow. Than 7-8 open to everyone. Handi cap has entire season. Or something of that nature . I bring this up because last year Whitetails unlimited and various other archery clubs showed up in numbers and put in the work to have a poorly written bill shutdown because it would've opened Airbows to the entire archery season. The other week Gov Evers did just pass a bill, I have not read the bill yet which I really need to because alot of states have had some just assinine ways of writing these new airgun bills, it's been blatantly obvious those writing them don't have a ****ing clue. But the summary of the new bill stated that airguns are now allowed in any season open to centerfires. So, all that being said, kinda where I sit concerned on FFS. I do not like the fundamental idea of banning products. I do not like depriving the handicap or the guy that never gets to go out of a successful fun time. But I also don't like that at the end of the day we're talking about a product that has the potential of great negative impact to a resource we all care about, and that truly trumps my prior two opinions at the end of the day. The argument of "the way it was and the way it is now/fair chase" is benign. That's not what legislation cares about. This conversation needs to be had purely on impact. So the way I figure is we sit and wait and gather data and either A:find out we're wrong or B: Find out it's too late and the damage is done and have an even harder time combating a popularized product. Or...we gotta nip it now. It's gunna be an uphill battle, that I'm not sure we'll win, but I'd be willing Settle for the "Sanctuary Lake*" idea. My county would have no problem I don't think Sanctuarying 10% of its lakes with launch access. *Someone on here proposed the idea, and I REALLY liked it. Basically the lake does not allow the possesion or use of Sonar or trolling motor. | ||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Thanks for the question North of 8. I'm coming at this from a macro holistic viewpoint - that where this FFS tech is going is taking fishing to a place that is "bad" for the fishing experience, not just the micro musky perspective. One has to define what bad and good fishing is though. FFS and what is to come will mean very high catch per unit effort (CPUE) for those using that tech, and reduce it for everyone else. This is already demonstrated objectively by these tournaments (bass, crappie, any tournament where it is allowed). I recommend anyone to just type in Livescope, FFS etc and just view anything to with it, including the ocean, watching seals, herring, sharks, tarpon, anything. So mean CPUE up for those that have FFS, mean CPUE down for everyone else. Fish can only take so much pressure, can only be caught so much, if they are caught today "out there," they probably won't bite in that weed-bed in the morning. More caught, more mortality. More mortality, less fish to catch. Less fish to catch, worse fishing. I don't define catching necessarily as good fishing, but from a fish management catch rates are going to be the measure. So what is the line that has been crossed? Did you read the book about the Kon-Tiki expedition as a kid? Middle of the ocean, where are the going to get food? Flying fish, mahi-mahi, tuna, sharks. Bounty. The line is - the Pelagic Zone.... This is the line that has been crossed and taking us to a bad place. I've mentioned before, but will mention again here that I did my M.Sc on the ecology of pelagic zone in oligotrophic lakes. Most folks intuitively know there is lots of life out there, but it is sort of comical to listen to some of the bass tournament guys talk like FFS has permitted some sort of revelation that huge bass are out roaming the middle of a lake. Everything is out there. Most of the production in a lake is in the pelagic zone: algae grow from the sun/nutrients, small zooplanton eat the algae, big zooplanktan and larval fish eat the little plankton, bigger fish... etc. Stuff dies, sinks to the bottom where chironomids, mysis shrimp, scuds, mayfly, caddis nymphs, eaten by sculpins, darters, troutperch. Then we have the ciscos/whitefish, burbot, perch etc. Finally the big predators. Most of the fish biomass is out in the pelagic zone, with the next most in the benthic zone (bottom). The majority of big predators are there too. Before FFS - sure we could get lucky. North of 8, you spotted that bait ball on your SI. Bait ball = scared baitfish. Scared baitfish = predator. Add in FFS and you follow that fish around, figure out how big the baitfish are, drop your bait into the ball and fall out it, bingo! FFS you just scan around for the next fish, like Kirby said. Who needs a guide? The pelagic zone was a refuge. The fish you are catching in shallow are the same fish that were in the refuge. Doesn't matter that the FFS folks are not fishing your spot, they are fishing your fish. And they are relentless about it. Take out "musky" and insert any other species, including rough fish. The pelagic/benthic zone is the big line, but of course FFS can be used in the littoral zone and in cover, even watching fish come in on topwater. And it is only going to get "better," or worse, if you agree it is a bad thing. "So find another hobby if you don’t like today’s fishing!" * I could go into more detail as to what it can do (what you can learn), but I don't want to sell anymore of these freakin' things ** Edited by Angling Oracle 3/23/2024 11:51 AM | ||
| North of 8 |
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| Thanks for the response. I do see where you concern comes from. | |||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | North of 8 - 3/23/2024 11:27 AM Thanks for the response. I do see where you concern comes from. No problem, North of 8. I agree with Randy here, can't really be on the fence on this issue. Spotlighting has got to go. Randy's comments from 6:20+ is the other line crossed. Just as I mentioned about Jay Siemen's glasses video. https://youtu.be/9tcKuLJG5wo?si=74w3P9yUswYimdUP&t=225 "So find another hobby if you don’t like today’s fishing!" Edited by Angling Oracle 3/23/2024 1:10 PM | ||
| raftman |
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Posts: 516 Location: WI | Angling Oracle - 3/23/2024 8:30 AM raftman - 3/23/2024 7:37 AM I feel like this conversation is less about “fair chase” and more about “fishing is changing from what I feel it should be and that’s not fair.” Tough. You all want GPS, side imaging, sonar, 1 foot contour maps, stealthy trolling motors, and whatever else to help learn quickly learn water and catch more fish but it should just stop at FFS because it’s not “fair chase”? Creating a line at this point seems disingenuous. You all have been feeding the demand for better technology so find another hobby if you don’t like today’s fishing. Fishing will be fine. Ha! I don't need tech, neither does Kirby, Mallard, North of 8 et al. We'd all get along fine without it. Did you read your own post? "at this point" What does that mean? You are implying there is a line. But you are fooling yourself, YOU DON'T HAVE A LINE. We care about the resource, you care about you (in the collective sense, you being the detached from nature crowd). Take a moment to think about what is really important and why you enjoy being outdoors; maybe you will start to get where we are coming from. FFS and whatever the future developments in it are are not going to be making the collective fishing experience better, it it only going to get worse, much worse here on out. This is why we have made it a line, for no other reason. "So find another hobby if you don’t like today’s fishing!" Needs to be put on a t-shirt. LOL. At no point in my post did I say I needed the technology. I don’t have FFS and I don’t have any plans to own it. I have a line. Is it legal? Fine with people fishing for whatever reason they want rather that be nature (which is why I participate) or use some fancy technology. I find your “you care about you” comment a bit hypocritical though as you are the one preaching about how fishing should be done. You may profess it to be concern for the resource but seems more of a concern of what people are doing when they fish. | ||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | raftman - 3/23/2024 1:52 PM LOL. At no point in my post did I say I needed the technology. I don’t have FFS and I don’t have any plans to own it. I have a line. Is it legal? Fine with people fishing for whatever reason they want rather that be nature (which is why I participate) or use some fancy technology. I find your “you care about you” comment a bit hypocritical though as you are the one preaching about how fishing should be done. You may profess it to be concern for the resource but seems more of a concern of what people are doing when they fish. Thanks for clarifying. Not sure how you get that take from any of my posts. All of my posts on the subject explain my rationale and position which has steadfastly been against this specific tech for reasons of conservation and to ensure a quality of fishery experience for all. I am fighting for you and everyone else, not me. Me? I will do just fine just doing what I do with my hunting and fishing buddies. We fish and hunt in the best place in the world. Edited by Angling Oracle 3/23/2024 2:33 PM | ||
| fatturtle011 |
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Posts: 39 | Tried to bring this up (improved technology) sometime ago and where it might take us in the future but it got a little uncomfortable. Glad to see that many of you are still asking questions and willing to discuss it. | ||
| colinj8899 |
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Posts: 165 | raftman - 3/23/2024 7:37 AM I feel like this conversation is less about “fair chase” and more about “fishing is changing from what I feel it should be and that’s not fair.” Tough. You all want GPS, side imaging, sonar, 1 foot contour maps, stealthy trolling motors, and whatever else to help quickly learn water and catch more fish but it should just stop at FFS because it’s not “fair chase”? Creating a line at this point seems disingenuous. You all have been feeding the demand for better technology so find another hobby if you don’t like today’s fishing. Fishing will be fine. People aren't worried about there fish catching ability with or without FFS. They are showing concern for the resource and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't agree on everyone's take whether for or against FFS. But your take comes off way more selfish and disingenuous than anyone's take that is against it for good reason and that is protecting the resource and the outdoors. | ||
| raftman |
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Posts: 516 Location: WI | colinj8899 - 3/23/2024 4:33 PM raftman - 3/23/2024 7:37 AM I feel like this conversation is less about “fair chase” and more about “fishing is changing from what I feel it should be and that’s not fair.” Tough. You all want GPS, side imaging, sonar, 1 foot contour maps, stealthy trolling motors, and whatever else to help quickly learn water and catch more fish but it should just stop at FFS because it’s not “fair chase”? Creating a line at this point seems disingenuous. You all have been feeding the demand for better technology so find another hobby if you don’t like today’s fishing. Fishing will be fine. People aren't worried about there fish catching ability with or without FFS. They are showing concern for the resource and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't agree on everyone's take whether for or against FFS. But your take comes off way more selfish and disingenuous than anyone's take that is against it for good reason and that is protecting the resource and the outdoors. Not sure where I’m coming off as disingenuous or selfish. Calling it as I see it with folks trying to draw lines with technology. FFS was not created in a vacuum. Technological improvements to make catching fish easier has been an expectation in our community so let’s not pretend we can put the toothpaste back in the tube and ban it. Concern for the resource in this chat could probably be more accurately described as concern for their fishing experience. At no point have I disagreed that FFS could have a negative impact on mine. I’m still happy to defend FFS. This resource is as much mine as it is somebody drawn into fishing by the technology and what some idiot influencer did with it on YouTube. | ||
| CincySkeez |
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Posts: 591 Location: Duluth | Its hilarious that some see resource management as an infringement on their freedoms, truly brain poisoned country. As stated many times before, if we wait to gather the data it will already be too late.. The largest cause of musky mortality is handling, FFS means more fish handled. Not a hard chain of events to understand. | ||
| Brian Hoffies |
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Posts: 1668 | I didn't read all the posts as I think this is a personal question on what is fair chase. I know guys who think that Barry Bonds is the MLB homerun king. I also know guys who think Alex Rodriguez is a stand up guy. FFS is a personal thing in how you look at the fishing resource. I think you will find those who make money off of fishing favor the use if it puts money in their pockets. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32789 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Proclaiming your belief, one way or the other, is fine, and debating it is necessary. NO ONE posting here is anything beyond a person sitting behind a monitor with an opinion, most even using a board name. Post your opinion without being rude and without personal attack. I shouldn't have to ask. I am VP Communications/Marketing for Muskies Inc. This subject is hotly debated, and a position statement seems necessary as there is little question sharpshooting is adding to the downward pressure on muskie populations. I have no problem accepting the fact the tech is here, I own it both winter and open water. I do believe that the tech is here to stay. There's considerable debate as to whether MI should react officially at this point. Personally, I think there is a need for all of us to strongly recommend the ethical use of a product that can be used in a manner that can be reasonably argued will damage the muskie population. In the current atmosphere with negative stocking issues so paramount in WI and MN, I'm concerned that on some lakes, enough unethical use of the tech will create a tipping point we will not be able to recover from in my lifetime, if ever. I would place sharpshooting in the top 3 threats to sustainable muskie populations IF it becomes widely used in an unethical manner, so I would say yes to the *. | ||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 309 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | sworrall - 3/24/2024 10:02 AM Proclaiming your belief, one way or the other, is fine, and debating it is necessary. NO ONE posting here is anything beyond a person sitting behind a monitor with an opinion, most even using a board name. Post your opinion without being rude and without personal attack. I shouldn't have to ask. I am VP Communications/Marketing for Muskies Inc. This subject is hotly debated, and a position statement seems necessary as there is little question sharpshooting is adding to the downward pressure on muskie populations. I have no problem accepting the fact the tech is here, I own it both winter and open water. I do believe that the tech is here to stay. There's considerable debate as to whether MI should react officially at this point. Personally, I think there is a need for all of us to strongly recommend the ethical use of a product that can be used in a manner that can be reasonably argued will damage the muskie population. In the current atmosphere with negative stocking issues so paramount in WI and MN, I'm concerned that on some lakes, enough unethical use of the tech will create a tipping point we will not be able to recover from in my lifetime, if ever. I would place sharpshooting in the top 3 threats to sustainable muskie populations IF it becomes widely used in an unethical manner, so I would say yes to the *. Thanks for that, Steve. Agree that paramount to keep the discussion cordial and polite so we can keep it going and not put on the back page. Obviously things may veer a bit from the OP. In Canada with natural reproducing populations (no stocking) the issue is potentially more acute. Although it may seem the pressure is lower (and in some places it is very low, but always very educated), there areas that are very vulnerable to this tech at times. Obviously people having great success do their best to keep it mum, but what I have heard is very concerning. I think a strong position from Muskies Inc. / Muskies Canada sooner than later would be extremely beneficial to put peer-pressure on the community and perhaps allow some of the lodge owners/guides a justifiable reason to not use it and/or allow it out of their camps. As as a position on it, one must do what's best for the fishery. Does it improve, detract or is there no change? Not just muskies, but it seems most other species are at risk from FFS. The board of MI and MCI should also consider that there are going to be bottom and top up effects from shifts in population structure of prey and other predator species. Not just musky anglers using the tech, but for example crappie/perch/bluegill anglers affecting those populations which may affect a musky population indirectly. I think being against it is the only wise choice, not half measures. Edited by Angling Oracle 3/24/2024 11:27 AM | ||
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