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Posts: 46
| DWR successfully hatching, raising tiger muskies using unique new method
https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/1795-dwr-successfu...
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Posts: 536
Location: deephaven mn | its has ben documented that using female muskie eggs and northern sperm. the reverse method that is used in minnesota, that the results create a tiger that is canabalistic and eats the other fish in the ponds which they are reared. i have always said why waste time an effort trying to raise tigers that dont live as long and dont grow as big as pure strain. Dollar for dolar it costs the same to raise tiger as i does a pure strain and you get a better product when raising a pure strain. |
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Posts: 455
| Some states want the sterile strain to ensure no chance of reproduction. I think Washington and Utah fall in that category.
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| Do Tigers tolerate a greater range of water temps? |
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Posts: 1187
| North of 8 - 11/14/2023 9:06 AM
Do Tigers tolerate a greater range of water temps?
I'm not sure, but like many hybrid animals, they are more vigorous, and can do better in more varied water conditions. |
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Posts: 490
Location: NW WI | Just hear-say now mind you from persons in the profession. There's a less than 200 acre lake by me that was known as a great walleye lake (no muskies present) but it had a boom in perch population that was greatly declining all other species and the perch were stunted. So Tigers were brought in as Fry and a few years later as eggs in order to cull the perch and the tigers would eventually die off. Somehow pures got into the mix and the lake now has successful natural reproduction of pures on accident.
My slight point being that Tigers can get used as temporary means of fisheries management, very similar concept as to how some lakes without muskies have been placed with stringent Pike harvest regulations in order to grow larger pike in the hopes of larger pike eating larger and more of a overpopulated panfish population. |
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Posts: 20180
Location: oswego, il | Colorado uses tigers as a means for temporary management. They are not viewed by the state as a game fish.
It would be interesting to see what a barred or clear strain crossed with a leech lake strain would do.
Edited by ToddM 11/15/2023 5:42 AM
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Posts: 977
| kap - 11/14/2023 8:28 AM
its has ben documented that using female muskie eggs and northern sperm. the reverse method that is used in minnesota, that the results create a tiger that is canabalistic and eats the other fish in the ponds which they are reared. i have always said why waste time an effort trying to raise tigers that dont live as long and dont grow as big as pure strain. Dollar for dolar it costs the same to raise tiger as i does a pure strain and you get a better product when raising a pure strain.
which sex is crossed between which species has absolutely nothing to do with cannibalistic tendencies...they all do it and do it often especially in rearing pens. Muskies, pike, female pike crossed with male muskies, female muskies crossed with male pike, hell even bass, etc....they all eat each other.
And also it does not always cost dollar for dollar the same. Tigers will take to pellet rearing much more readily than muskies will so depending on how they are reared in which states (entirely on pellets, pellets then finished on baitfish, or entirely on baitfish), it can be significantly cheaper not having to pay for enough baitfish to feed them.
And in states/waters where muskies aren't native, tigers are a viable sportfish option because they're sterile and if no longer wanted in a system, they can just be left to age out. |
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Posts: 120
Location: Twin Cities Metro | kap - 11/14/2023 1:28 AM
Dollar for dolar it costs the same to raise tiger as i does a pure strain and you get a better product when raising a pure strain.
At least one MN DNR area supervisor disagrees with that statement. He indicated in a talk that it was easier to produce hybrids than pure strain muskies. I didn't ask him to elaborate, but it was during the the part of the talk when he was discussing the cost of the stocking program. It could have been due to lower expenses to feed the hybrids, greater tolerance in rearing conditions, or being able to use extra/leftover gametes from pure strain muskie "egg-take" operations (ie not enough milt for eggs or vice versa). Apparently pike gametes are readily available and storable, on demand.
Also, the pure strain muskie stocking program in MN is intended to produce a self-sustaining population. That is why they typically don't introduce muskies into lakes with inadequate water quality and little to non-existent spawning habitat (ie fully-developed shorelines). The lakes with tigers being stocked are lakes that do not tick all the boxes for a self-sustaining population. The goal of the tiger lakes is to provide more opportunities for anglers to fish for "muskies" in the state, especially in places with a large population of muskie anglers (the Twin Cities Metro area). Tiger lakes don't have to qualify as being capable of sustaining natural reproduction.
Think of the MN tiger muskie program as a bonus program. We (maybe?) use leftover muskie gametes to more cheaply produce hybrids that grow faster and go in lakes where pure strain muskies won't ever be stocked. |
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Posts: 105
| Good response Robert.
I target tiger muskies in the Twin Cities area, specifically. There are days I simply prefer to fish for them instead of pure strains. Its nice to have both options available relatively close to where I live.
Its my understanding that tigers exhibit a much faster growth rate than pures. While their lifespan may not be as long, they can reach quality size much quicker. That trait is probably more desirable when you need to remove a lot of small northern pike, which many lakes here have. |
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| This is an interesting discussion. Did not know that tigers were sometimes used to reduce population of unwanted species. Makes sense that by putting sterile fish into a body of water, you are not creating another resident species, at least for a long period of time. |
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Posts: 536
Location: deephaven mn | RobertK - 11/15/2023 11:25 AM
kap - 11/14/2023 1:28 AM
Dollar for dolar it costs the same to raise tiger as i does a pure strain and you get a better product when raising a pure strain.
At least one MN DNR area supervisor disagrees with that statement. He indicated in a talk that it was easier to produce hybrids than pure strain muskies. I didn't ask him to elaborate, but it was during the the part of the talk when he was discussing the cost of the stocking program. It could have been due to lower expenses to feed the hybrids, greater tolerance in rearing conditions, or being able to use extra/leftover gametes from pure strain muskie "egg-take" operations (ie not enough milt for eggs or vice versa ). Apparently pike gametes are readily available and storable, on demand.
Also, the pure strain muskie stocking program in MN is intended to produce a self-sustaining population. That is why they typically don't introduce muskies into lakes with inadequate water quality and little to non-existent spawning habitat (ie fully-developed shorelines ). The lakes with tigers being stocked are lakes that do not tick all the boxes for a self-sustaining population. The goal of the tiger lakes is to provide more opportunities for anglers to fish for "muskies" in the state, especially in places with a large population of muskie anglers (the Twin Cities Metro area ). Tiger lakes don't have to qualify as being capable of sustaining natural reproduction.
Think of the MN tiger muskie program as a bonus program. We (maybe? ) use leftover muskie gametes to more cheaply produce hybrids that grow faster and go in lakes where pure strain muskies won't ever be stocked.
Dirk Peterson the had fisheries in Minnesota (fifteen years ago) agreed with me.
And did reduce the production of Tigers based on what we thought. Tiger production went down and some Tigerlakes have never been stocked since. Because of this Minnesota has lost Muskie lakes because the dont introduce pure strains into lakethat were Tiger lakes. Maybe is should have kept my thought to myself |
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| I find it interesting that baitfish are required in rearing. The pen raised salmon from Europe are raised entirely on fish meal, pellets, no baitfish. Are musky that picky? |
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Posts: 1195
| I live in Colorado and a generation ago it had some world class Tiger Muskie Lakes, every year the biggest Tiger caught by Muskie INC member come out of Quincy Reservoir in Aurora Colorado, I used to know a lot about Tiger Muskies but with the passage of time and head injury I've forgotion more then I know.
A few things about the Tigers of Colorado and in Tigers in general.
1. Tigers can be reared on pellets not live fish like Trues.
2. Tigers grow faster then Trues.
3. we have Northerns some Mountain Lakes left over from stocking in the 1950's and they used melt and sperm from Muskies from Pennsylvania.
First and foremost Colorado is a Trout State and everything comes after that.
In the early 90's guy's from the local Walleye Club would have to go out of state for there events. I don't know any one from the Club now but there are places in metro Denver where you can catch a hundred Walleyes a day.
The gentlemen who brought Tigers to Colorado has passed on and the people he worked with are retired from Division Of Wildlife or also passed.
I will look thru all my books and research Tigers this winter and I will go down and talk with the people from Division Of Wildlife see what's going on. Also the local chapter of Muskies INC is long gone.
With the Northerns we have problem with Bucket Biology.
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Posts: 120
Location: Twin Cities Metro | Hey kap!
Definitely don't pipe down! If you know stuff I don't, I want to hear about it.
There's a little overlap in what you and I both said. Pure strains don't get stocked in lakes that get tigers... true! But I think the reason is that tiger lakes don't meet the DNR's requirements for water quality, spawning habitat, etc... I'll be interested to read MN's long range plan for muskie management, which is in production right now.
The past 20 years, muskie fingerling production in MN is way way down. Most of this is due to funding limitations. The DNR is trying to come up with creative ways to increase stocking effectiveness. One of the ways is to overwinter fingerlings and stock them as yearlings. In their study of that, they've been able to figure out that one yearling is worth 3-5 fingerlings (due to predation of the larger yearlings being MUCH less than predation on smaller fingerlings after stocking). The outcome is that now the MN DNR is trying to figure out ways to overwinter a certain portion of their muskies for stocking as yearlings. So even if they produce the same number of muskies for stocking, the fish that are stocked will be much more likely to reach maturity.
Tiger production has definitely gone down, but from what I can see, it went down at about the same rate as fingerling production of pure strain muskies. If it was a state-wide decision to reduce tiger production in favor of pure string production, that's news to me. Is that what you're saying? I know that the tiger lakes that were dropped from the stocking requests for a number of years were dropped because certain area supervisors were inattentive to muskie stocking in general for a while.
Anyway, glad to learn something new, if you know stuff I don't! I hope you didn't take offense to my thoughts about the tiger program. If so, it wasn't intended!
Edited by RobertK 11/17/2023 2:24 PM
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| I think within the musky fishing community there is a great deal of interest in stocking, what it takes to raise musky, both pure and tigers, in a hatchery. I wonder if an entity like Muskies, Inc. might be able to do some sort of online Q&A with a hatchery expert in this area.
I have a chronic illness and the non-profit group that focuses on patients with this illness arranged to have a zoom meeting yesterday, where an expert (who is my doctor at Mayo) answered questions submitted online and selected by a moderator, who is also a patient. Not a free for all like at a club meeting, but an expert answering questions that are of broad interest to the community. Someone like Steve could serve as the moderator. I participated yesterday through Zoom, but it was also available through FB.
Just a thought but I think there would be a lot of interest, maybe even enough to attract a sponsor or two to cover any costs. |
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Posts: 8721
| I remember hearing that they were cheaper to raise because you can feed them trout pellets or something like that in a seminar many moons ago. I know they did really well in a few lakes in CO and Utah but it's been about 20 years now since I've heard much about them. My guess they never caught on with the fishing public at large. |
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Posts: 1195
| In some of the lakes in Colorado where they did not do well two reasons. They were stocked in Lakes and had high numbers of mature Walleyes and Wipers and birds too. they never got a chance to grow. Later on they tried to hold them over and stock them at a larger size. (that helped but it was also expensive) And on some of the Lakes on the Eastern Plains the water got too hot for survival. |
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Posts: 20180
Location: oswego, il | I seen a pic of an upper 50's tiger caught on Quincy about 20 years ago. Amazing such a small lake could hold a fish that big, probably ate a lot of 18" carp. They are so numerous on the plains lakes they don't get too big for a musky to eat. |
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Posts: 1195
| I used to live across the street from Quincy and at 204 acres there were Muskies everywhere. Most trips you would see a 50" a least swimming in the water if not chasing your lure. We all seen a large fish pushing 60", and a kid caught and released a 58"
(he got a Master Angler for it.) The picture was lousy. Even though I've seen fish pushing 60" I don't think this fish was even close to that. We had the kid and his father at one of our Muskie INC meeting and my Dad was the president and we were to keep our mouths about our opinions to our guest. State Record came out of there 53" 40 pounds +. And many 50 inches caught. They ate a lot of Crawfish and Spot tail Sinners. |
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Posts: 536
Location: deephaven mn | pellets statrted being used to feed muskies fry at the Waterville hatchery about 10 years agowith great succes as a cheaper way to feed the small ones. They are still studying results as to see how it afffects growth rate. Size is huge as stated above.
Studys do show that a 17inch plus muskies survies at a higher rate then a typical 12 to 13 inch fingerling. data says that stocking a 17 inch wintered over fish is like stocking 3 12 to 13 inchers. Wintering over has been succesful the previous 5 years in Minnesota. This year was not so good as close to 70% where lost. Waterville has improved ability to winter over more fish this fall. Only a small percentage of fingerlings get wintered over as there are not enough ponds to do this. So the way to help would be to get private partyies to dig more rearing ponds |
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Posts: 120
Location: Twin Cities Metro | Great info there, kap. It aligns and expands on what I’ve heard and read.
Question though. Why private parties for rearing ponds? Wouldn’t it be better for there to be expanded DNR facilities to do the rearing and overwintering? That would seem like a great ask for part of a state-wide bonding bill to improve long term fisheries infrastructure. |
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Posts: 1195
| No secret to grow Muskies and Tigers! Minnesota did it before they bowed down the no more Muskies /Walleye fishermen, and Colorado did it before they went back to being a Trout State. Muskie fishermen are seen as a small group of elitist. |
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Posts: 536
Location: deephaven mn | RobertK - 11/19/2023 8:45 AM
Great info there, kap. It aligns and expands on what I’ve heard and read.
Question though. Why private parties for rearing ponds? Wouldn’t it be better for there to be expanded DNR facilities to do the rearing and overwintering? That would seem like a great ask for part of a state-wide bonding bill to improve long term fisheries infrastructure.
BINGO |
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Posts: 497
Location: Ludington, MI | I'm in a group that rears walleyes in a 6-acre pond. We get the small fry at 1/4" and we have to get them out by 1.25-1.5" or cannibalism goes wild. It's 45 days, give or take. Individual fish of the same species and even the same genetics grow at different rates. Maybe it's where they're stocked in a pond or that their particular raceway in the hatchery is warmer/cooler has more shade/light... |
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