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Posts: 72
| I just went on my first guided trip to a trophy musky lake and I feel like I learned a lot. My guide has won several tournaments and has fantastic reviews, but there was one thing that really has me questioning him. He didn't want to switch to different lures. We were both throwing jerkbaits over a weed bed. We could see musky on the side imaging. After about 4 or 5 hours I asked him if we should maybe try some rubber, bucktails, crankbaits, tubes, or something else and he said that jerkbaits work great in these conditions on this lake and it was a matter of finding the bite window. We then trolled for 2 and a half hours before returning back to the previous location to cast for another hour. I really likes the guide and learned a lot, but I just feel like his persistence in only using 1 lure was strange. Do you guys think this is a red flag? |
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Posts: 32800
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | In answer strictly as to whether this was a 'red flag': No. If you learned a lot then he did his job well. Did you bring your own tackle? |
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Posts: 2280
Location: Chisholm, MN | As a guide, I feel this pressure a lot from clients. Even if they don’t say it, I can feel them thinking it. Of course I’m biased, but I would not consider it a red flag. They know what baits the fish will eat and they know it’s about timing. I sometimes let them change baits just to appease them honestly. We usually end up throwing the baits I want them to by prime time though. |
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Posts: 72
| Kirby Budrow - 8/20/2023 6:55 PM
As a guide, I feel this pressure a lot from clients. Even if they don’t say it, I can feel them thinking it. Of course I’m biased, but I would not consider it a red flag. They know what baits the fish will eat and they know it’s about timing. I sometimes let them change baits just to appease them honestly. We usually end up throwing the baits I want them to by prime time though.
Ok, thank you. I wasn't sure, this lake is about 6 hours from where I live, so I'm definitely not familiar with it while my guide has won tournaments there, so he is definitely more experienced and I took his word for it. I just thought it was a bit odd that we both were throwing the same exact lures the whole time except for when we trolled. Whenever I fish, after a few hours I often go to a different lure. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong since I haven't had too much luck on my home lake yet. I just went with what he said since he's more experienced, but it did raise some questions for me. I just asked "You think we should stick to these jerkbaits?" And he said they work the best in that lake. Although I will say, even though we didn't get anything, I really liked this new jerkbait and I definitely am going to buy one myself because I like how deep I'm able to get it. |
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Posts: 8720
| Absolutely not! If a guide lets you throw the same lure for hours, it's probably the lure they would be using if you weren't.
I've taken it upon myself to change lures when I'm bored with the same old thing and I've gotten responses like: "What are you doing?! Put that ___ back on!!!" to "Changing up, eh? Well, gimme that ____ then. If you don't want to throw it anymore, I will!" to "well, that's an interesting choice. You want to actually catch fish or just mess around with lures??"
Granted these are guys I've known for a long time, so I would hope that's not how they respond to all their clients, but they got their point across. |
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Posts: 72
| esoxaddict - 8/20/2023 7:25 PM
Absolutely not! If a guide lets you throw the same lure for hours, it's probably the lure they would be using if you weren't.
I've taken it upon myself to change lures when I'm bored with the same old thing and I've gotten responses like: "What are you doing?! Put that ___ back on!!!" to "Changing up, eh? Well, gimme that ____ then. If you don't want to throw it anymore, I will!" to "well, that's an interesting choice. You want to actually catch fish or just mess around with lures??"
Granted these are guys I've known for a long time, so I would hope that's not how they respond to all their clients, but they got their point across.
Alright, it was my first guided trip so i just wasn't sure if that was something unusual or not. He was telling me about all the fish he's caught theee with jerkbaits and how he often catches fish at the last minute. When the trip was over and we were headed back to the ramp he was telling me how well I did and he can tell I'll be a great musky angle with some more practice and he's sorry he couldn't get me one. I just told him it's the fish of 10,000 casts for a reason, you can't guarantee anything. That's just fishing, there's days you get nothing, especially with musky. |
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Posts: 1203
Location: Walker, MN | For me, some days are for experimenting with lures(fish are located but not eating). Some days are for experimenting with new spots(need to find new fish).Some days are for doubling down on what's been working.
I can see questioning throwing the same lure all day, or fishing the same spot or area for a long period and not seeing fish...it's best to trust the guide's process, and not throw a wrench into his/her plan. |
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Posts: 1971
| Fish can be caught in tough conditions, and a guide can get in a rut of what "should work" just like any muskie angler.. guide and client throwing the exact same lure for an 8 hour day with nothing in the bag seems silly to me! |
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Posts: 166
| If you wanted to change lures, you should have. Don't forget you're paying him. Unless we've nailed the pattern down for the current conditions, buddy and I rarely throw the same bait with the same cadence, etc.
Edited by BillM 8/21/2023 7:57 AM
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Posts: 1195
| I've fished four times with big name guides and have gone 0 for 4, all on big fish lakes. I can a smaller fish on my own. I think of it as Muskie lessons. First trip my dad lost one and got a 20 pound class fish. (guide had a cold and didn't fish), this was a August night fishing trip. Next trip June, dad got a 30" fish and the guide got a 35" fishing behind us. Two different October trips nothing. I've caught Sailfish in Mexico, Salmon in Alaska, both Pike and Walleye here in Colorado with guides. I have four days this October booked with a guide in Wisconsin. I did fish with a off duty guide on the lake my grandparents had there home and I had the only action. I missed a fish that hand cuffed me on a Glidebait. |
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Posts: 32800
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I guided for over 20 years, 10 full time. A few times I had clients argue over the lure I asked them to throw, and I would explain why that lure was the best choice for conditions and the bite we were on. I remember several times when the client argued several times, but stuck with the program and scored big time. If the client brought their own lures, I limited them to 5. I learned that from having 25 baits scattered around the boat by noon and more client time changing lures than fishing.
If the client couldn't or wouldn't work the bait correctly, that was an issue. I always paid attention to what my clients were doing and helped them adjust if necessary, but some just couldn't do it. An example is casting left arm, retrieving right with a bucktail or spinnerbait over submerged cover or just being physically unable to work the lure. The bait was always started late and was not in the strike zone most of the cast, plus was frequently fouled. That client got a floating dive and rise or crank, or if conditions were good, topwater. Rubber or other rapidly sinking baits over weeds or wood with that issue would have been not good. Were you both throwing identical lures, and did you provide the bait or did the guide? Did the guide provide the rods, or were you using your own? Some days the clients wanted to use only their rods, but the action/length/speed/something was wrong to work certain lures. There are too many variables to make a blanket statement fit.
You were paying that guide for his knowledge and expertise. If you used a lure he did not recommend (decided to go rogue on his program) the results would be on you and could make a mess of his program if you were having issues. I buffered that possibility based upon the client's experience in the sport, if the guy was a stone-cold muskie slayer I'd make my recommendations and shut the heck up.
I have caught a tremendous number of big fish on Creatures. To me it's the easiest and most enjoyable way to fish, but I grew up a jig fishermen. The gear is very specific, so if that was the hot program I either had to provide all the gear or not have them fish a jig. Teaching that technique could be....interesting.
Some anglers only had one speed, topwater, bucktail, whatever, it's wide open with a 6 to 1 gear ratio. I'd hand that guy my 4.3 to 1 and hope.
I miss guiding some days, then think maybe I am missing the best of the experience, not the whole deal. |
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Posts: 72
| Well, I threw one jerkbait and he threw another jerkbait. Then we switched and threw each other's jerkbaits, then he switched over and used a different jerkbait. So we used 3 separate jerkbaits over 8 hours. So it wasn't the exact same lure, but same style. |
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Posts: 517
Location: WI | Wouldn’t have been a fan of it but certainly doesn’t make it wrong. Based on your description, he seems like he probably has it dialed in and was trying to have you on the fish with a lure his experience indicated would be high percentage when a window opened. I wouldn’t like just throwing jerk baits all day but I doubt I increase my chances every time I switch lures. |
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Posts: 105
Location: Alberta Canada | I have guided but not for musky and different situations call for different approaches. It is hard to judge if the guide handled things correctly or not as I was not there and I don’t know the lake
I can say yes I have taken out multiple clients at once river fishing salmon all using the same lure/presentation. I knew it was more a matter of the fresh run coming in then the right or wrong lure. Also used slow time to teach my clients to hit the seem correctly so they were ready when the fresh run arrived. During slow periods I would let clients experiment with different lures if they wanted with the recommendation of “when I say it’s time I recommend you switch to x lure/presentation”.
Guiding is partly knowing how to manage your clients well keeping them happy in my opinion and it’s an art. You also have to respect they are out there to have a good time fishing and bend a little at times
I also picked up the odd trick from clients well they were experimenting with things I may not have considered and this only made me a better guide/fisherman in the end. It doesn’t matter how much knowledge you have on a body of water or experience fishing you don’t know everything
In the end if you enjoyed your day it was a success |
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Posts: 72
| raftman - 8/21/2023 2:27 PM
Wouldn’t have been a fan of it but certainly doesn’t make it wrong. Based on your description, he seems like he probably has it dialed in and was trying to have you on the fish with a lure his experience indicated would be high percentage when a window opened. I wouldn’t like just throwing jerk baits all day but I doubt I increase my chances every time I switch lures.
He said this lure has worked very well and I've heard a lot of other people say this lure works well on their lake. I was just taking his word for it because he knows better than I do. I was just questioning if it was unusual to only use 1 lure for the whole day even though we had no follows or hits. |
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Posts: 7010
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Guides and guide trips have many different foci (good word, eh?). Some guides just want to put you on fish, some are more than happy to teach and put you on fish, and sometimes they are there to show you the lake.
What I have found is that the first category "just put me on a fish" doesn't really "do it" for me. I may suck at chasing muskies, but I always want to get better at it, learn a bit and have something to take away from that trip other than the one/two/seven fish we caught.
Sounds like this was the attitude of your guide "we're fishing here with this because it gives us the best chance to boat A fish". Next time, if you want a little different experience, TELL your guide what you're looking for. My experience is MOST guides would rather teach, share knowledge and give the client the experience they want, versus just hammering the water.
The best guide trips I have had (regardless of fish catching) have all been when I said "i want to learn the lake" or "I want to try this section" or "i know the the community spots, maybe show me some areas others don't hit as much" OR "i suck at throwing tubes, let's figure this out".
Then I get what I want out of the day (it is my charter, my money) and everyone is happier.... |
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Posts: 72
| Slamr - 8/22/2023 9:58 AM
Guides and guide trips have many different foci (good word, eh?). Some guides just want to put you on fish, some are more than happy to teach and put you on fish, and sometimes they are there to show you the lake.
What I have found is that the first category "just put me on a fish" doesn't really "do it" for me. I may suck at chasing muskies, but I always want to get better at it, learn a bit and have something to take away from that trip other than the one/two/seven fish we caught.
Sounds like this was the attitude of your guide "we're fishing here with this because it gives us the best chance to boat A fish". Next time, if you want a little different experience, TELL your guide what you're looking for. My experience is MOST guides would rather teach, share knowledge and give the client the experience they want, versus just hammering the water.
The best guide trips I have had (regardless of fish catching) have all been when I said "i want to learn the lake" or "I want to try this section" or "i know the the community spots, maybe show me some areas others don't hit as much" OR "i suck at throwing tubes, let's figure this out".
Then I get what I want out of the day (it is my charter, my money) and everyone is happier....
Yup, that was definitely it. He asked what I wanted to do and I said I wanted to do whatever would give me the best chance of getting one. |
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Posts: 309
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | PennsylvaniaMuskie - 8/21/2023 6:44 PM
raftman - 8/21/2023 2:27 PM
Wouldn’t have been a fan of it but certainly doesn’t make it wrong. Based on your description, he seems like he probably has it dialed in and was trying to have you on the fish with a lure his experience indicated would be high percentage when a window opened. I wouldn’t like just throwing jerk baits all day but I doubt I increase my chances every time I switch lures.
He said this lure has worked very well and I've heard a lot of other people say this lure works well on their lake. I was just taking his word for it because he knows better than I do. I was just questioning if it was unusual to only use 1 lure for the whole day even though we had no follows or hits.
I wouldn't take that lesson with you into your own muskie fishing. Hot bait or not, muskies have different personalities and there is always going to be fish that will reject the hot bait and chase or bite something else. It is not a productive strategy to have both anglers throwing the same thing - except when one bait is clearly irrestible.
Edited by Angling Oracle 8/22/2023 10:07 AM
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Posts: 8720
| I've had much the same experience as Andrew. Some guides (wish I could name names) just drive around their milk run, say nothing about the lake, the spot, the time of year, where the fish should be and why, and you just cast when the boat stops. Not my bag. Others go as far as to talk about seasonal bait migrations, explain how the spot lays out, what's adjacent that makes it good. Some run and gun, and others camp out on a spot and pick it apart from different angles. With some, I've felt like I should have brought a notebook. Others I feel like I should have brought a magazine. I've found the old timers with 40 - 50 years under their belt to be much more enjoyable to fish with over the hot shot young guys with something to prove. Fun to watch a guy who pulls up to a spot, throws 3 casts says "Nope" and then goes on to another spot where you stay for an hour and catch 3 fish. |
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Posts: 32800
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If the 'jerk baits' are from different companies and are of differing designs, that throws in a conversational wrench or two. Also, the guide set a couple hours apart to troll the edges (crank baits, I believe) and seems to have been offering the best hard bait selections to stay above the cover when casting.
To Andrew: 'Cast over there by that rock'. |
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| I guess what was asked of the guide before the trip should be considered as well. A few years ago, I booked a half day trip with a local guide to help me on one of the lakes in the chain where I live. I knew the fish were there but I really did not have much luck there. So that was his focus, spending time on a few areas and explaining why he liked the spots. My daughter and I threw different lures, but only changed once each.
I got what I wanted, a better approach to the lake. My daughter had follows, in the same spot, both at the start and at the end. Just couldn't get the fish to commit. |
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Posts: 1670
| My cash, I'll fish the way I want. However I won't blame the guide if I get blanked. |
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Posts: 1208
Location: E. Tenn | I took a couple of guided trips a few years back, and even though we zeroed, I learned enough about the lake, and some techniques that paid off nicely down the road.. |
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Posts: 7
| After several years of chasing muskies on Lake of the Woods with little success, I went to the Angle and hired Doug Johnson as a guide in late October. We trolled shorelines with his equipment, with the rods in the rod holders. This was so I wouldn’t set the hook on a rock, but rather let the big Jakes bounce through them and pop free. I really wanted to hold the rod, but Doug convinced me otherwise. We caught some great big muskies and had a great time visiting in the boat, talking muskies and other stuff. I’ve used these lessons for the next 15 years with a lot of success.
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