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Muskie Fishing -> Muskie Boats and Motors -> Buyer's Remorse
 
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Message Subject: Buyer's Remorse
sjk
Posted 11/7/2022 2:52 PM (#1014389)
Subject: Buyer's Remorse




Posts: 3


While I rarely participate in the message boards, I have been a long time reader of them because I highly value the opinions and expertise of the many anglers who regularly contribute. Consequently, I would appreciate some feedback on my situation.

Earlier this year, I was able to purchase a Minn Kota Mega 360 imaging system and a Helix 12 unit which I hooked up to my Ultrex. Also in the bow, I have a Vexilar flasher and a Lowarance LCX 27C which I use primarily for GPS/waypoint guidance.

I spent a lot of time on You Tube attempting to understand and program the Mega 360 and also on a local lake actually using it on known structures. On my one Canadian muskie trip this year, I went up with high hopes that perhaps on clean rock structure I might be able to scan the water looking for fish before we even took a cast.

Well, the exact opposite happened. Not once during the entire trip did I spot a muskie first that we would then cast to. And this was despite the fact that fish were occasionally present on spots we were casting. So to say I am disappointed would be a big understatement. My first thought on this situation is my problem involves "operator error". Perhaps I just need to do more reading and get more on the water experience. Also, in my area is a fishing electronics expert who will, for a fee, go out in your boat and provide you with hands on instructions to get the most out of your electronics. Hiring him next spring is something I'm likely going to do.

So any thoughts or comments regarding this situation will be greatly appreciated.



sworrall
Posted 11/7/2022 3:44 PM (#1014390 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 32800


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
sjk,
It's an operator error issue as long as the install is correct. Might be a wire that needs to be placed correctly. Settings are everything. We have two rigs with the Mega 360 and Mega View on them, and both required careful tweaking. Where are you located? I'd be happy to take you out next Spring and get her set up right, no charge.

https://www.facebook.com/1crappiefirst/videos/?ref=page_internal
North of 8
Posted 11/7/2022 5:06 PM (#1014392 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse




I think an awful lot of us are not getting full use of our electronics. Story a while ago about a young fishing guide in WI who is getting more gigs as an electronics tutor than as a guide. Goes out on the water with clients and teaches them how to effectively use their electronics, rather than taking them out fishing. Started with a client saying something to the effect of 'I know how to fish, but I don't know how to effectively use my expensive electronics'.
Makes sense to me.
BNelson
Posted 11/7/2022 7:31 PM (#1014394 - in reply to #1014392)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Location: Contrarian Island
I have pretty basic electronics. No 360. No panoptix. No live. Still have over 100 in the boat this year. Guys should learn to fish first... my 2 cents.
pstrombe
Posted 11/7/2022 7:46 PM (#1014396 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 189


I picked up a unit late last year and had similar learning curve issues. I did have the benefit of initially fishing with a guide. He didn't give me much advice, but I could see what the screen should look like and how to back out the clutter. This fall I was able to finally get it where I wanted it. A couple guys I fish with every fall really wanted to pull suckers. The suckers gave me a known target to practice on and I kept keep adjusting until I found the setting that fit my rig. I moved the transducer down 2 notches from the F - forward setting and after getting the unit adjusted, I could see the sucker, the egg sinker 2 feet above and occasionally the bobber. On several occasions I could clearly see the fish come up from the bottom and move on the bait. Sometimes the suckers would be going nuts and I would glance at the screen to see a fish following the bait. I have not had much success seeing muskies suspended in the water column other than at night when they are following bait. I see many more on my side scan which is on full time. However, It's a whole different game with walleyes, crappies etc. I realize there is some controversy out there, but the technology adds a level of enjoyment to my experience. Personally, I'm strictly catch and release - it's all about the hunt and adds a level of enjoyment to my experience. This year my wife and I have had eaten a total of 6 - 17" walleyes. In summary I would hang a big bait like a bull dawg on a bobber some 50 feet away and start with the auto settings and tune from there. BTW the Hummingbird software update released last May was a big improvement. Good Luck
CincySkeez
Posted 11/7/2022 10:20 PM (#1014397 - in reply to #1014396)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 596


Location: Duluth
I agree with BNelson.

But opinions like that dont pay the bills

Edited by CincySkeez 11/7/2022 10:22 PM
Slamr
Posted 11/8/2022 8:03 AM (#1014402 - in reply to #1014397)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 7010


Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs
w - 11/7/2022 10:20 PM

I agree with BNelson.

But opinions like that dont pay the bills


ME TOO BUT....

-you guys MIGHT have a LOT more years under your keel and therefore accumlated knowledge? - yes, this is a short cut, but if you can afford it, enjoy it, why not use it? it's about everyone's fun. right?

-you guys MIGHT just travel more, farther, and with greater overall intent than MOST on this board? most of the water I fish, BNelson wouldnt put his boat in as he's travelling the world to GREAT fisheries. I am travelling to very EH waters becasue I like to be home as well as fishing. So with the high end electronics I think I just say....

Yes this is a short cut, but if you can afford it, enjoy it, why not use it? it's about everyone's fun. right?
BNelson
Posted 11/8/2022 10:15 AM (#1014410 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Location: Contrarian Island
I travel 2 miles to Madison lakes and over half the fish are from home waters. Yah that stuff is neat but in the grand scheme of things besides using Panoptix finding and hovering over fish getting them to bite (which to me is pretty lame) like I hear some Vermilion guides and others do that stuff doesn't magically put a very large % more fish in your boat per year... if a guy is simply relying on that stuff to put more fish in the boat I think they will end up with buyers remorse. Imho there are some very basic things a guy should be doing that are free that will put more fish in the boat. one thing watching the weather...

Edited by BNelson 11/8/2022 10:16 AM
Slamr
Posted 11/8/2022 11:15 AM (#1014414 - in reply to #1014410)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 7010


Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs
BNelson - 11/8/2022 10:15 AM

I travel 2 miles to Madison lakes and over half the fish are from home waters. Yah that stuff is neat but in the grand scheme of things besides using Panoptix finding and hovering over fish getting them to bite (which to me is pretty lame) like I hear some Vermilion guides and others do that stuff doesn't magically put a very large % more fish in your boat per year... if a guy is simply relying on that stuff to put more fish in the boat I think they will end up with buyers remorse. Imho there are some very basic things a guy should be doing that are free that will put more fish in the boat. one thing watching the weather...


absolutely....but used correctly, it can be a quick fix to at least the question of "where are they?"
BNelson
Posted 11/8/2022 12:00 PM (#1014417 - in reply to #1014414)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Location: Contrarian Island
if they are out in open water... I see VERY few we catch in Madison on SI simply from them being IN the weeds. you can't see them...take the $5,000 a guy spends on fancy stuff and hire the best guides for the waters they fish and spend half as much and learn 1000% more

Edited by BNelson 11/8/2022 12:00 PM
Angling Oracle
Posted 11/8/2022 12:22 PM (#1014420 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse




Posts: 309


Location: Selkirk, Manitoba
We don't know your Shield lake experience and background there, so you will have to fill us in.

Guessing here:

If you are watching guides showing how effective this tech is on Youtube or something along those lines and thought this would be a shortcut to finding and sharpshooting muskies randomly, then BNelson is entirely correct, this is tech actually is not only not going to be that useful, it is actually reducing the number effective casts you make during your trip.

Effective casts on intelligently predicted locations and times => knowledge => more fish seen => more fish caught. If you are defaulting to marginal habitat to suit the tech, you are bound to have the consequences that you had. If you are staring at a screen you are not casting into the 4 inches of water you need to to pull out a musky that is there lying in a crease or crevice in the slab but you can't see on your tech. Even worse, you are not casting into the weeds or beside the big boulders or ledges where the majority of muskies are laying - clear rock is not good habitat up here.

If you have all the knowledge (spots, lures that are going, cadence, where fish like to be with wind x and sun condition y), and if you are handy with interpreting 360, then as per Slamr, it then help you make effective casts by saving time on a spot you are very familiar with where a fish doesn't appear like you expect - i.e "The fish we saw yesterday and the day before is not making an appearance, lets scan off this ledge a bit to see if we can mark it, maybe it is laying out in this current seam or on the deep break." Honestly though, even though possible, this would not be a game I would pursue unless taking a break and having a sandwich or something.

If you are not using for some other kind of fishing, then yes, I think not a good investment if solely for sharp shooting musky up here in Shield country.

Edited by Angling Oracle 11/8/2022 12:37 PM
sjk
Posted 11/8/2022 2:44 PM (#1014428 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse




Posts: 3


Well, I guess it's time I jump back into this conversation. First off, I would like to thank Steve for offering to meet with me and fine tune my setup. Since I live in Waukesha County, Wisconsin, I might have to consider doing this. I do believe I installed the components correctly and it is more probable I am way off on the settings.

Regarding BNelson's comment one should learn to fish first, I couldn't agree more and I believe I have done that. And to address Angling Oracle's thought that more information about me is needed, I will try to comply however this is somewhat problematic as I have traditionally preferred to keep a low profile but here goes.

I am 67 years old and caught my first muskie in northern Wisconsin when I was eight years old. I first fished LOTW in 1969 when I was fourteen. I hadn't missed a trip to NW Ontario for muskies until the Covid year of 2020. I am just two or three muskies short of having caught fifty legitimate fifty inch class fish, all without the help of a guide. When you include the fifty inch fish caught by friends of mine fishing with me in my boat, the number is even higher. These fish have come from Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Ontario across a fairly big variety of lake types.

The last twenty-five years or so, I have backed off some from chasing muskies as hard as I used to. Instead, I have done much more international fishing for many of the great game fish this world offers. Fish I have caught include Peacock Bass in the Amazon, Golden Dorado in LaZona, Trout in Patagonia, Tarpon in Florida, Trinidad, and Costa Rica, Tigerfish in Africa, Niugini Bass in Papua New Guinea, Yellowcheek Carp in China, giant catfish in Thailand, and Arctic Char and Lake Trout in the Arctic Circle.

I feel very comfortable in fishing shield lakes for muskies and I believe I understood the limitations of the Mega 360 system prior to buying it. I have many rock only structures on the Canadian lake I fish which consistently produce nice fish and I was really hoping the system would allow me to take fewer casts on those spots and to actually place targeted casts on some spotted fish. I do appreciate how some fishermen would consider this "cheating" and, quite frankly, I haven't come to terms with it myself. The stories we hear about targeting fish on Vermilion and Mille Lacs are very concerning to me. That being said, this new technology is not yet illegal and I really do not want to be left behind as things advance. Yet, I will also state the last piece of electronic equipment I would give up would be my Vexilar flasher although giving up the GPS with all the waypoints would be very painful too.

Going forward, I will give the Mega 360 a chance to fit into my fishing style in a productive way. Should that not pan out like I hoped, perhaps one of you will be buying if off me for a nice discounted price in a few years. Finally, thanks for the input you have all provided so far.
BNelson
Posted 11/8/2022 2:57 PM (#1014431 - in reply to #1014428)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Location: Contrarian Island
More thoughts... I use side imaging all the time.. I don't know that I have ever spotted a muskie in rocks/boulders on lotw but we catch a ton of those on those spots. I don't believe mega 360 will spot them any easier. I have seen muskies in and on the edge of cabbage beds. I don't know that anything short of using Panoptix to spot muskies is going to make your cast count go down on lotw.. maybe / maybe not. I've got just shy of 200 some fish in the boat in 65 days since 2011 with 15 or 16 over 50 and don't know there is a short cut using 360. Even some of the guides using Panoptix I doubt are casting much less per day... to me, when I was in the boat with 360 the time it took for the 'radar' to spin one full revolution was too slow to really utilize casting for muskies... I still take the belief that the more casts you make on good spots per day wins....not less casts per day.

Edited by BNelson 11/8/2022 2:58 PM
North of 8
Posted 11/8/2022 3:21 PM (#1014434 - in reply to #1014431)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse




Side Imaging has shown me structure that I did not know was there and MEGA SI shows it more clearly. Few years back Steve Heiting was one of the presenters at a musky seminar. He told the story about having caught muskies several times on spot that really didn't seem to have anything going for it. After he got SI, realized that there was tree or part of a tree stuck in the bottom there and that was what was holding musky in the area. He guessed the tree provided cover to bait fish in an area without much in the way of cover.
sworrall
Posted 11/8/2022 4:34 PM (#1014438 - in reply to #1014428)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 32800


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
sjk - 11/8/2022 2:44 PM

Well, I guess it's time I jump back into this conversation. First off, I would like to thank Steve for offering to meet with me and fine tune my setup. Since I live in Waukesha County, Wisconsin, I might have to consider doing this. I do believe I installed the components correctly and it is more probable I am way off on the settings.

Regarding BNelson's comment one should learn to fish first, I couldn't agree more and I believe I have done that. And to address Angling Oracle's thought that more information about me is needed, I will try to comply however this is somewhat problematic as I have traditionally preferred to keep a low profile but here goes.

I am 67 years old and caught my first muskie in northern Wisconsin when I was eight years old. I first fished LOTW in 1969 when I was fourteen. I hadn't missed a trip to NW Ontario for muskies until the Covid year of 2020. I am just two or three muskies short of having caught fifty legitimate fifty inch class fish, all without the help of a guide. When you include the fifty inch fish caught by friends of mine fishing with me in my boat, the number is even higher. These fish have come from Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Ontario across a fairly big variety of lake types.

The last twenty-five years or so, I have backed off some from chasing muskies as hard as I used to. Instead, I have done much more international fishing for many of the great game fish this world offers. Fish I have caught include Peacock Bass in the Amazon, Golden Dorado in LaZona, Trout in Patagonia, Tarpon in Florida, Trinidad, and Costa Rica, Tigerfish in Africa, Niugini Bass in Papua New Guinea, Yellowcheek Carp in China, giant catfish in Thailand, and Arctic Char and Lake Trout in the Arctic Circle.

I feel very comfortable in fishing shield lakes for muskies and I believe I understood the limitations of the Mega 360 system prior to buying it. I have many rock only structures on the Canadian lake I fish which consistently produce nice fish and I was really hoping the system would allow me to take fewer casts on those spots and to actually place targeted casts on some spotted fish. I do appreciate how some fishermen would consider this "cheating" and, quite frankly, I haven't come to terms with it myself. The stories we hear about targeting fish on Vermilion and Mille Lacs are very concerning to me. That being said, this new technology is not yet illegal and I really do not want to be left behind as things advance. Yet, I will also state the last piece of electronic equipment I would give up would be my Vexilar flasher although giving up the GPS with all the waypoints would be very painful too.

Going forward, I will give the Mega 360 a chance to fit into my fishing style in a productive way. Should that not pan out like I hoped, perhaps one of you will be buying if off me for a nice discounted price in a few years. Finally, thanks for the input you have all provided so far.


Come on up, we'll fish for a day and get it dialed in. Plenty of room for you to spend the night if you like, Sue might even make crappies fir us if we are lucky.
sworrall
Posted 11/8/2022 4:37 PM (#1014439 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 32800


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Far as disdain for electronics goes, suit yourself. I think I learned how about 45 years ago, so no need for me to worry about that. I use the 360 and mega live more for boat control and positioning than anything else. Don't want one? Fine, just don't dis those who do, they ain't you and might not want to be.

Each to their own, keeping it nice and friendly here.
Angling Oracle
Posted 11/8/2022 10:05 PM (#1014449 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse




Posts: 309


Location: Selkirk, Manitoba
Sjk, that's an very impressive CV there across the board- especially don't see Niugini bass mentioned much as a bit of a remote one. Some real eclectic catches there and probably some great stories to go with them.

Definitely not my intent to push you for that kind detail, and I apologize for the confusion on that, was just curious as to level of Cdn Shield experience (as I posited) given the type of question sort of has different advice for one scenario or other.

I guess the point I note in you reply is sort of the keeping up with the Joneses/not miss out. I don't think you would be missing out fishing without 360 given your experience and number of great waypoints. Clearly you don't need any advice on finding or catching muskies or big muskies in the Shield.

You can speak to your own experiences with it regarding what you can see and what screen size you need to use it effectively and the distraction level as far as casts per spot.

In general I think the thread was interesting and it is sounds like everyone here is using some level of humminbird Mega including myself with Mega SI which is great for habitat and bait school evaluation, but I don't take any time away from casting to use for finding muskies. It may turn out you don't have buyer's remorse for 360 given it can be used in these other ways too and perhaps some very targeted fish searches - I do have buyers remorse for a whack of lures (too small), too short of musky rods and too small of screens.



Edited by Angling Oracle 11/9/2022 8:26 AM
RJ_692
Posted 11/9/2022 9:08 AM (#1014458 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse




Posts: 357


there is a reason most bass pros use 360 for structure, live scope for fish. each tool is a bit better than the other at certain things. both are great tools.

i think 360 is great on its own if it does nothing other than setup structure for casting angles. on some structures you are just not going to see fish. you can sit on a rock pile in winter with a flasher perfectly leveled and not see fish in rocks.

if looking for fish off structure lice scope stuff is just hard to beat. it has completely changed the off shore game in all types of fishing
hahdawg
Posted 11/9/2022 1:22 PM (#1014465 - in reply to #1014458)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse




Posts: 64


I think 360/SI is more for finding good structure than actually spotting fish. It's amazing if you use it for that purpose.

I remember the old sonar-only days, when you had to drive in a tight grid to find boulders/weed edges or set your depth super high and look for a double return to find hard bottom/transitions. Now, you can mark all of that stuff in maybe 5% of the time and come back to fish it.
pstrombe
Posted 11/9/2022 3:14 PM (#1014467 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 189


When I started this game, I had a nice hand bearing compass and a Fish hawk flasher mounted on my dash with suction cups along with a notebook to record my locations. We have come a long way. Live Image only goes over the side on selected times and locations, but the side imaging is a super tool for following the edge and identifying bait. That being said, I didn't really see the need for auto chart until I realized how inaccurate the charts are. I spend quite a bit of time during the off hours mapping my favorite lakes. Amazing how many unmapped humps and other structures are out there.
CincySkeez
Posted 11/9/2022 8:27 PM (#1014482 - in reply to #1014467)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 596


Location: Duluth
I am by no means an electronics hater. I love them, absolutely love the new technology that I put on my boat this year. The best fishermen I know utilize side imaging, to great effect. But SI doesn't tell you when to expect to set the hook.

Scope and 360 have their limitations in weeds and shallow water. The product I chose has it's shallow water limitations (like all SI), but is superb in weeds because the swim bladders of fish show up as dots on the graph. Dot size can be tuned by fish size, small fish are blue and big fish orange slightluy less big fish yellow. Stuff that pings on 3d but never would on a non ocean/commercial piece of equipment. This is also valuable fishing ledges, open water, and main lake points. You can see what kind of bait is hanging, how far off the structure and where the big dots are hanging in relation. Been trying to really fine tune all year, but can be tough because i fish solo and suckers, ciscoes and walleyes all have similar size swim bladders.

I'm posting this and not naming brand names because thats not the point. The point is staring at live imaging, waiting for a "thing" to tell you where to cast doesn't feel like an ethical way to put the puzzle together. Im also aware of the instant feedback a vexilar gives, it rules I always keep an FL-8 handy incase my new fangled stuff doesnt want to work, but thats not the same as being able to cast 70 yds and constantly be mobile like you can with a networked rig on a boat.

Edited by CincySkeez 11/9/2022 8:33 PM
sworrall
Posted 11/9/2022 9:36 PM (#1014485 - in reply to #1014482)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 32800


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
CincySkeez - 11/9/2022 8:27 PM

I am by no means an electronics hater. I love them, absolutely love the new technology that I put on my boat this year. The best fishermen I know utilize side imaging, to great effect. But SI doesn't tell you when to expect to set the hook.

Scope and 360 have their limitations in weeds and shallow water. The product I chose has it's shallow water limitations (like all SI), but is superb in weeds because the swim bladders of fish show up as dots on the graph. Dot size can be tuned by fish size, small fish are blue and big fish orange slightluy less big fish yellow. Stuff that pings on 3d but never would on a non ocean/commercial piece of equipment. This is also valuable fishing ledges, open water, and main lake points. You can see what kind of bait is hanging, how far off the structure and where the big dots are hanging in relation. Been trying to really fine tune all year, but can be tough because i fish solo and suckers, ciscoes and walleyes all have similar size swim bladders.

I'm posting this and not naming brand names because thats not the point. The point is staring at live imaging, waiting for a "thing" to tell you where to cast doesn't feel like an ethical way to put the puzzle together. Im also aware of the instant feedback a vexilar gives, it rules I always keep an FL-8 handy incase my new fangled stuff doesnt want to work, but thats not the same as being able to cast 70 yds and constantly be mobile like you can with a networked rig on a boat.


Well said.
Kirby Budrow
Posted 11/10/2022 9:25 AM (#1014492 - in reply to #1014485)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse





Posts: 2280


Location: Chisholm, MN
Rocks of lake of the woods are not where it would shine. Shallow mud or sand and open water is where 360 works best. You need a solid background to see the shadows.
gimruis
Posted 11/15/2022 9:15 AM (#1014623 - in reply to #1014396)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse




Posts: 105


pstrombe - 11/7/2022 7:46 PM

Personally, I'm strictly catch and release - it's all about the hunt and adds a level of enjoyment to my experience. This year my wife and I have had eaten a total of 6 - 17" walleyes.


This part completely contradicts itself. You can't strictly be a catch and release angler and keep walleyes.

On the subject of electronics, I don't have 360 or livescope and I don't plan to add either of them in the near future. Upgrading electronics every season to the latest and greatest isn't something I can afford.

I do use side scan and HD mapping in addition to standard 2D sonar quite a bit. GPS mapping is probably the feature I use the most. It not only tells me where I am, but I consider it a basic safety requirement too. I would never throttle down somewhere if I didn't know how deep it was. That's a recipe for disaster.
Landry
Posted 11/22/2022 5:30 PM (#1014797 - in reply to #1014389)
Subject: Re: Buyer's Remorse




Posts: 1023


Like Kirby said - soft bottom and open water is better for spotting fish in SI, 360 or Live.
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