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Edited by 4amuskie 11/21/2019 2:56 PM
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
Well...a few things to think about as well, as the tests are done on carbed small engines as compared to our marine engines of today designed to run on E10, which means they will have tested all components, metallurgy, etc. on the engines being produced today.
What is not talked about are all of the other additives in the fuels themselves which make up the fuel overall (Things like benzene and toluene etc.) They will be of different concentrations for each blend of fuel. Now...if this guy in the video took pure ethyl alcohol and put the aluminum, and the components into it and let it sit, there would be a whole different story to tell.
One must also consider when storing an engine, it is always recommended to fill the entire tank with fuel to limit any sort of condensation from happening. Also, he misquoted. Alcohol does not Attract water or pull it from the air... It bonds with when introduced, and in the amount of fuel he had, the introduction of water was excessive and not representative of what really would happen for hydrogen bonding, when more complex solutions are created, the solubility goes down, but not completely, so the massive introduction of water to his glass jar is not proportionate to what would happen in a tank without extra introduction of water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=43&v=4x_t0MLxie4
As for corrosion on components that he showed toward the end, the E10 and non ethanol blends are almost identical with our without stabilization, and that is after 9 months.... It was obvious that non treated fuel did not do well, but again, how much did he have in the jars beforehand? were the jars filled to the brim, then capped and vented? We don't know that, so there easily could be some skew in the results. I'd doubt the fuel would be completely evaporated to the gel component if it were full. I'd doubt we'd see the same looking fuel if the jars were completely filled for his first part.
The marine engines of today have been engineered to run on E10 fuel....they are tested beyond any sort of bench testing this guy has done on his small engines, and the components used to build a small engine are vastly different than those used in automotive engines and marine engines of today. Older carbed engines of the 70's and 80's are a different story, though....
This is not an apples to apples comparison... It's not even close to being a perfect experiment and without an introduction to this experiment, and his set-up, we have no clue how he started this process to see whether it was flawed from the beginning or not.
Questions that immediately came to mind for me...What would be the result of adding just a little water to a full jar, keeping it under the point where phase separation would occur? What would those results be? How would suspending the components in the non-ethanol fuel with water introduced be different than leaving it on the bottom in the water almost completely(given it is not acidic)? Aluminum is stable in non acidic water...
Way too many variables in this video to even come close to determining E10 vs non ethanol being a good or bad thing.
To me, the tell tale sign was his end showing all the component pieces side by side. The parts put in the E10 and non ethanol blended fuels looked almost identical, and I would attribute any of the minute difference in those two with the other additives blended with the individual fuels when they are created...they are not the same, and will most likely not be in the same concentrations for each type of fuel.
Use the fuel of your choice...it still comes down to one basic thing: Maintenance of your fuel system.
Fill your tank with your fuel of choice, stabilize that fuel, get that stabilized fuel running through your engine, and it'll be ready for next spring...some 4 -5 months from now. With full tanks, no water will EVER be an issue in either fuel, and no deterioration of components will EVER be an issue as the components are designed for use of either E10 or non-ethanol fuel.
Steve
Edited by VMS 10/22/2019 9:54 AM
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | LOL...as I'd say directly to you as well... Take a flawed garage experiment over scientifically proven, tested, engineered designs created by multiple people...or better stated....TEAMS of people well versed in the science behind every step of the design and manufacturing processes including the fuels used, feel free. It's your motor, treat it how you want.
In the end, it doesn't matter what fuel you use given it is designed for your engine...MAINTENANCE is the key, and that is the bottom line.
https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Busting-Ethanol-Fuel-Myths
I also spent a little more time reading a master's thesis about ethanol blends and aluminum corrosion. It's 100% scientific in process from beginning to end. Although the read is lengthy and very in-depth, it does highlight many things about ethanol that are important for everyone to understand as it pertains to the aluminum alloys being used today. It should also be noted that the aluminum used in the garage experiment may not even be close to the alloys used in the industry, and the whitish layer on the aluminum is always going to happen as aluminum naturally will oxidize in almost all natural environments. That oxidation layer is what helps protect the aluminum from more oxidization over time. It's no different in some ways to the blueing on a shotgun or rifle. Bluing is just another form of oxidation using a different chemical creating a different chemical reaction than water and iron making rust. Aluminum is no different.
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:720728/FULLTEXT01.pdf
Steve
Edited by VMS 10/23/2019 11:01 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 10/22/2019 11:05 AM
Lol....its always good to see actual test results instead of opinions. Interpret it as you like.
Read more, inform yourself, and then maybe try to argue the subject. |
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | undersized - 10/28/2019 2:01 PM
So much information, what's a guy to do?
Hiya,
Simple...learn something new...take interest in something and see what it's all about...
Edited by VMS 10/28/2019 5:20 PM
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Edited by 4amuskie 11/21/2019 2:58 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 10/29/2019 8:26 AM
undersized - 10/28/2019 2:01 PM
So much information, what's a guy to do?
You should watch his windshield wiper comparison. Fun stuff. Dont take it too serious : )
So VMS suggests something to read and inform so you better understand the conflicting information out there, and you come back with windshield wipers.
Bottom line, oxygenated fuels are not going to harm your boat, motor, or tow vehicle any more or less than non-oxygenated as long as one stabilizes whichever one chooses. All marine manufacturers have built engines and boats designed to burn e10 for a couple decades. Same with your tow vehicle. Both fuel blends MUST be stabilized if the fuel is not going to be burned in a few weeks as the fuel breaks down very rapidly these days. Those are the facts. Use the fuel you like, but be informed in that process so you fully understand the results.
In my case, a couple decades of running e10 a LOT more than the average guy, and zero issues. The rip off artists selling 'ethanol treatment' snake oil have not made a dime from me. I ran engines from 50 to 250, in 2 and 4 stroke, followed the manufacturer's recommendation on additives... no issues.
Are you burning non oxygenated fuel in your tow vehicle? |
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Location: North Central IL USA |
You should watch his windshield wiper comparison. Fun stuff. Dont take it too serious :)
I just did. Thanks for the heads up. Now I know what wipers to get. Now more metal frame blades for me! |
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
Here would be a reasonable argument for not using E10 in your SMALL ENGNINE.... Look at the fuel line it is made with... If anything will break down quickly, it will be the fuel lines in these engines. I've replaced many over the years from weed whips, chain saws, lawnmowers, blowers, edgers, hedge trimmers (worked for lawn care company for a few years during college) and all of them had polyurethane fuel lines. They would literally disintegrate over time due to various reasons...but for their purpose, that fuel line works very well and the engines were easy to maintain by changing them out every few years.
Almost all small engines are made with fuel lines consisting of polyurethane, which is conditionally resistant to ethanol, not resistant to benzene nor Toluene (both components in various fuel blends), but is resistant to pure gasoline. Note it is not gasoline-proof, though...it will still break down over time, just not as fast...
The parts inside of a carb for these engines are primarily some rubber compound for certain parts (O rings, etc), gaskets that are a rubber/fiber compound, with a plastic float (both alcohol and gasoline resistant), The item that breaks down is the fuel line, and those bits and pieces are what get in the jets of the carburetor. The other parts remain decent, although gaskets do their job and rip from time to time, needing replacement. They do stay in tact when not disassembled. This is what the first video posted reflected for a SMALL engine...it does not transfer to our marine and automobile engines of today. If the fuel is unstabilized, it does not take much fuel for things to get gelled up and clogged either, which also means it is important to stabilize your fuel in a small engine as well. Again...the main issue...maintenance...
Below is a link to the various chemicals that have been tested with Polyurethane fuel lines. A quick scan shows what they are resistant to, conditionally resistant to, and not resistant to.
Goes to show a small engine is built on a completely different level than our marine engines and our automobiles on the road today. The engineers have done this work for us and continue to test and test and test as they design and refine our power plants under the hood.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/polyurethane-chemical-resistance-...
Steve
Edited by VMS 10/29/2019 1:33 PM
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Location: 31 | VMS - 10/29/2019 11:28 AM
Hiya,
Here would be a reasonable argument for not using E10 in your SMALL ENGNINE.... Look at the fuel line it is made with... If anything will break down quickly, it will be the fuel lines in these engines. I've replaced many over the years from weed whips, chain saws, lawnmowers, blowers, edgers, hedge trimmers (worked for lawn care company for a few years during college ) and all of them had polyurethane fuel lines. They would literally disintegrate over time due to various reasons...but for their purpose, that fuel line works very well and the engines were easy to maintain by changing them out every few years.
Almost all small engines are made with fuel lines consisting of polyurethane, which is conditionally resistant to ethanol, not resistant to benzene nor Toluene (both components in various fuel blends ), but is resistant to pure gasoline. Note it is not gasoline-proof, though...it will still break down over time, just not as fast...
The parts inside of a carb for these engines are primarily some rubber compound for certain parts (O rings, etc ), gaskets that are a rubber/fiber compound, with a plastic float (both alcohol and gasoline resistant ), The item that breaks down is the fuel line, and those bits and pieces are what get in the jets of the carburetor. The other parts remain decent, although gaskets do their job and rip from time to time, needing replacement. They do stay in tact when not disassembled. This is what the first video posted reflected for a SMALL engine...it does not transfer to our marine and automobile engines of today. If the fuel is unstabilized, it does not take much fuel for things to get gelled up and clogged either, which also means it is important to stabilize your fuel in a small engine as well. Again...the main issue...maintenance...
Below is a link to the various chemicals that have been tested with Polyurethane fuel lines. A quick scan shows what they are resistant to, conditionally resistant to, and not resistant to.
Goes to show a small engine is built on a completely different level than our marine engines and our automobiles on the road today. The engineers have done this work for us and continue to test and test and test as they design and refine our power plants under the hood.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/polyurethane-chemical-resistance-...
Steve
Thank you for the information, and the time you spend researching and posting on the subject.
I think using non-ethanol with small garage type engines is very important... last Friday I drove half an hour to fill up 5-5 gallon plastic cans with non-ethanol premium for use in my small motors. I use it in my old 1990 skid loader, mowers, snowblower, weed wacker, and chainsaw. I believe I've had some issues with ethanol in my small motors in the past, two things that come to mind are when the little clear rubber primer literally disintegrated on my chainsaw, and the gas tank cap ring seal disintegrated and plugged up the carburetor on my snowblower. I also like the fact that although the small motors do not require premium, the gas can lay around for months, so even with some potential octane loss there's still going to be no issues.
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Edited by 4amuskie 11/21/2019 3:01 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 10/29/2019 4:19 PM
sworrall - 10/29/2019 9:28 AM
4amuskie - 10/29/2019 8:26 AM
undersized - 10/28/2019 2:01 PM
So much information, what's a guy to do?
You should watch his windshield wiper comparison. Fun stuff. Dont take it too serious : )
So VMS suggests something to read and inform so you better understand the conflicting information out there, and you come back with windshield wipers.
Bottom line, oxygenated fuels are not going to harm your boat, motor, or tow vehicle any more or less than non-oxygenated as long as one stabilizes whichever one chooses. All marine manufacturers have built engines and boats designed to burn e10 for a couple decades. Same with your tow vehicle. Both fuel blends MUST be stabilized if the fuel is not going to be burned in a few weeks as the fuel breaks down very rapidly these days. Those are the facts. Use the fuel you like, but be informed in that process so you fully understand the results.
In my case, a couple decades of running e10 a LOT more than the average guy, and zero issues. The rip off artists selling 'ethanol treatment' snake oil have not made a dime from me. I ran engines from 50 to 250, in 2 and 4 stroke, followed the manufacturer's recommendation on additives... no issues.
Are you burning non oxygenated fuel in your tow vehicle?
Way way way too serious here. You have no idea what I know but thanks for your concern anyway.
Good wipers are essential for clear vision in all kinds of weather.
I have a tendency to be 'serious' about what's fact and what's not, it's my job here. If you think this is something to be cavalier about, then don't post about it again, I have neither the time or inclination to debate with someone who's clearly messing around.
I'm not concerned about what 'you know' or don't, I care what you post to this publication as everything posted here is considered to be OFM's position unless stated otherwise. Look it up, it's in Wisconsin Internet law. My 'concern' comes from not wanting our users to be misinformed. Sort of ingrained after nearly 20 years.
And you didn't answer the question, do you use non-oxygenated fuel in your tow vehicle? |
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Edited by 4amuskie 11/21/2019 3:03 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Gasoline is now literally designed to remain stable for a couple weeks. There are dozens of chemicals in today's gas, most of which are added to gasoline to meed EPA requirements, boost octane, and keep the engine reasonably clean. Many of the chemicals are toxic, and one actually is used in other compounds to dissolve rubber. Very simplified, fuel stabilizers are designed to keep the more volatile compounds in gasoline from oxidizing, evaporating....breaking down. Marine engine manufacturers designed their stabilizers knowing that many boaters and anglers have the same fuel in the tank for weeks, or even months. There are formulations out there designed to mainly stabilize, and then there's the marine engine stuff that will do that and a lot more. This stuff will not 'fix' bad gasoline, it should be added to fresh gasoline. Why isn't this added to the gas coming out of the pump? The oil industry has designed gasoline to be burned within a time frame that doesn't always work for marine, utv, atv, etc. use. |
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Edited by 4amuskie 11/21/2019 3:05 PM
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
I am still in research with different stabilizers (see a previous thread on them as I took a quick straw poll on which ones are being used the most and would go that route), but am limited to doing what I would like to do...and that is to actually separate the different liquids in the formulation to figure out just exactly what is in them. Working in a public school and trying to separate liquids via boiling point is a tough sell with such volatile compounds and permission to do so is not going to be something easy to obtain. I'm not giving up, though, and will hopefully have something in the future to share.
I too am one with this subject in particular that I take seriously as well. To be honest, I too was on the premium non-ethanol fuel side at one point until I started questioning why use it when my outboard says E10 is fine. THAT is where my research started. I don't claim to be any sort of expert on this stuff, but I am going to ensure I am informed on any stance I take and I am going to make darn sure I can justify that stance.
Steve |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | From Itstillruns, a pretty good simple breakdown:
Alcohols
Loss of moisture is one of the causes of liquid fuel becoming more gel-like. Ethanol is an old-fashioned fuel stabilizer. Without additional chemical treatments, ethanol has water-absorbing properties which help keep fuel liquid. Other alcohols are used toward this end as well.
Hydrotreated Light Naphthenic Distillate Solvent Extract
Hydrotreated light naphthenic distillate solvent extract, known by a number of other names, including mineral oil and petroleum distillates, is a substance which makes up the majority of many fuel stabilizers. It works to prevent changes in the chemical make-up of solutions to which it is added. It is also used in anti-freeze, engine flushes, seals and lubricants.
"Trade Secret" Formulas
In addition to alcohols and hydrotreated light naphthenic distillate solvent extract, most commercial fuel stabilizers contain what the companies describe as "proprietary" or "trade secret" formulas.
As I understand things, the additional "proprietary" chemicals might be solvents, lubricants, and octane boosting agents.
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Edited by 4amuskie 11/21/2019 3:10 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Many of the fuel additives are what is listed my post above, yet some are almost all 'alcohol'. Those frequently propose to 'fix ethanol problems' when in actuality, they simply slow the process of gasoline drying out in storage.
That's sort of amusing to me.
I don't think additives are needed, the people who built my 4 stroke outboard do and have no problem explaining exactly why. After the push by a marine products manufacturer this year, teamed up with the NMMA basically losing it over the introduction of E15, the contradictions really became evident, and I started making calls and sending emails. We published an article on the subject a while back |
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | 4amuskie - 10/22/2019 11:05 AM
Lol....its always good to see actual test results instead of opinions. Interpret it as you like.
Did I somehow misunderstand your comment after my first response? In all due respect, I interpreted your response as reasoning to not use ethanol products.
Quoted from above as well:
Seems if you think we need stabilizers or other additives, you should know what's in them. MSDS sheets have changed but are still available although alot of it is now listed as proprietary. Are they snake oils? Maybe
My response:
I don't use any additives in my fuel other than stabilizer to take care of the storage issues Steve Worrall mentioned above. You are correct that much of the MSDS sheets now list components as proprietary, which is why many want to really know what is in them...thus...my reasoning for wanting to actually separate the substances.
Remember the days where store shelves were full of the red and yellow bottles of "Heat" and "Iso Heat?" Guess what they were? Don't need those today with our fuel blends...They did exactly what e10 does today... No e10 fuel will freeze even if it is -40 F. non oxygenated fuel has a distinct high probability of freezing below that threshold. Our boats in the north have the potential to be in temps to that range or colder... another reason E10 may be a better option...
https://www.reference.com/science/freezing-point-petrol-6f422fa6eff3...
Steve
Edited by VMS 10/30/2019 7:04 AM
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Edited by 4amuskie 11/21/2019 3:06 PM
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
I'm not doubting we can get some form of water within our fuel systems...it is the primary reason many run a fuel-water separator on their rigs for just this case. I have not ever experienced any in my systems over the some 35 years I've been running outboards. Each year, I do empty my separator and let it sit and it has been completely clean. The Ethanol bonds with whatever minute amounts of water that may get in, and is taken care of through the system without issue.
I do feel there will be a limit of some sort to ethanol blended fuels as things stand today. I base this primarily on the fact that ethyl alcohol does not have as much energy output as gasoline itself and on top of that, it does take some sort of fuel to make ethyl alcohol products currently. This is using fossil fuels to do so to some extent (tongue firmly in cheek here as I have not explored this to any great level), but I could see a day where everything is gasoline/fossil fuel free... It's coming...just may not be in our lifetimes.
Used to own a Ford Ranger a while back that could run E85...ran that for a while to see how it fared. Truck ran well, but did consume more fuel, although at a lesser cost per fill...but in the end for my driving, the cost savings was more or less a wash at that time. For every 2 tanks of E10, I had to purchase 3 tanks of E85 for the same distances in driving. For me at that time, I saw that as not cost effective nor cost prohibitive. I could have gone either way and financially would not be saving or spending any more with one over the other.
That was some 15 years ago....with technology of today, my experience of past may not be the same today with newer engine technology and that curve may very well be vastly different.
I think we will eventually see E15 and higher concentrations of ethyl in our fuels with our marine engines as well over time. I don't feel anyone would argue having exhaust that is less harmful to the environment overall is a bad thing. Being able to produce a fuel that is renewable and cleaner than fossil fuels is a good thing for now and future generations. It will happen and the manufacturing industry as a whole will adjust and modify as they need or are required to. I have confidence that efficiency will be kept as high as possible through this. I've seen this first hand with outboards now running on propane rather than e10. Was pretty neat to see to be honest.
Boat US did an article on it...
http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2013/december/alternative-outboards....
Steve
Edited by VMS 10/30/2019 8:40 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm still wondering, is anyone here running non-oxygenated gasoline it their tow vehicle? A couple reasons for asking. Is the only use that non-oxygenated fuel sees is some marine and small engines? I wonder how old that stuff can get and how much is removed before a fill occurs.
The big push this Spring by the NMMA and an engine manufacturer blasting ethanol has subsided, but the misinformation campaign continues causing confusion. If I seem a bit over passionate about the subject, that's why. |
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| Good question I wonder sometimes about filling up with non oxy fuel come spring Since it is not to be used in vehicles how old is it come May1st. |
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Edited by 4amuskie 11/21/2019 3:04 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 10/30/2019 3:30 PM
Pepper - 10/30/2019 10:30 AM
Good question I wonder sometimes about filling up with non oxy fuel come spring Since it is not to be used in vehicles how old is it come May1st.
Not to worry. They always mix the non oxy with the E10 so the non oxy is always fresh fuel. You sure dont think they throw it out when it gets old do you.
That would be bad. |
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| No I didn’t think they throw it out. I have seen tankers deliver gas. I haven’t seen they pump it from one tank to another
I suppose they could use the same type set up as when the tanks are flooded water |
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | 4amuskie - 10/30/2019 3:30 PM
Pepper - 10/30/2019 10:30 AM
Good question I wonder sometimes about filling up with non oxy fuel come spring Since it is not to be used in vehicles how old is it come May1st.
Not to worry. They always mix the non oxy with the E10 so the non oxy is always fresh fuel. You sure dont think they throw it out when it gets old do you.
I highly doubt this is what happens....
I believe fuel delivery to a convenience store/gas station is more likely to be based on supply and demand. If Demand is high for a particular blend, more will be delivered of that blend to meet the demand of the consumer. So...if a certain station only sells, say, 80 gallons of premium fuel per day, I'd suspect their weekly delivery would be somewhere around 600 gallons. For E10, lets say the daily demand is 1,800 gallons per day. This would be 12,600 gallons per week, and could very well need more than one delivery per week to meet demand.
Because all fuels have a shelf life of some sort, I would tend to believe stations are not going to "stock up" on fuel, especially fuels that could potentially sit for quite some time due to lack of demand. They will want to distribute the fuel in a manner that allows fresh fuel to be delivered on a regular basis.
Steve
Edited by VMS 10/31/2019 7:00 AM
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| I'm still wondering, is anyone here running non-oxygenated gasoline it their tow vehicle? A couple reasons for asking. Is the only use that non-oxygenated fuel sees is some marine and small engines? I wonder how old that stuff can get and how much is removed before a fill occurs.
I put e15 in my truck this morning. The gas mileage isn't as good but the price split from e10 today more than made up for it.
Considering the number of boats, ATVs, mowers, snowmobiles, lawnmowers, etc. that people are running on pure gas I don't worry one bit that it's getting old in the tanks at gas stations. At a remote, non-busy fishing resort somewhere? Maybe. But at a gas station in any reasonable town? No.
It's not even close to being a perfect experiment...no clue...whether it was flawed from the beginning or not.
I am still in research with different stabilizers...will hopefully have something in the future to share.
It's a lot easier to critique others than to do something yourself, isn't it? So I sure hope that you design and run a "perfect experiment." Hey, put it on YouTube and maybe you too will get 750k subscribers!
If I seem a bit over passionate about the subject, that's why.
Yep, and having an explanation for it doesn't change the negative impact. A conversation where someone dominates by doing all the talking turns others off and they stop listening. Just look at the word counts in this thread. Consider the idea that's it possible to be right on the facts but still get it wrong in the messaging.
And maybe laugh a bit instead of personalizing it when people inject a little levity into dull conversations.
You should watch his windshield wiper comparison.
It's nothing but Bosch Clear Advantage for me.
I just hope the ethanol in my gas doesn't eat the rubber off the wiper blade.
Edited by undersized 10/31/2019 8:12 AM
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