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anzomcik |
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Posts: 530 | Beastly Backlash - 2/12/2018 8:41 AM anzomcik - 2/11/2018 9:53 AM Beastly Backlash - 2/11/2018 Say what you want. At this point all you are going to do is continue to fish for things to argue about. I have yet to see you actual answer my questions. I have yet to see you acknowledge misstatements regarding line capacity by Shimano. And, I have yet to see you acknowledge that reel manufacturers design reels with over sized main gears for the purposes I pointed out. And if I am incorrect in my understanding, you have failed to put forth your own reason. I have yet to see you answer the question, why don't reel manufacturers just design their baitcasting reels with tiny main gears? You like to cry a lot and disagree a lot, but you can't step up and actually say something that actually defends your point of view. Tell me, why was the Tranx 500 not designed with a 10mm diameter main gear? If you can't answer that question, you need no longer speak. 1. I could care less about your spool capacity statement. 2.a reason for an over size could be to allow clearance of internal parts as mfg try to make the reels smaller. It could also be because of the material they are using, or the manufacture it process they are applying to make the gear would lend to larger work pieces. All of those are possible reasons. 3. A gear can only be so tiny to be effective, also see above answer for other possible reasons 4. As for defending my view, I’m pretty sure my example that you were changed your view on after the second time I posted it. My view is I don’t believe you have a full understanding of what your trying to prove. 5. To have a 10mm main gear you would need a 1.5mm spool gear. Not very conducive to manufacturing would be my guess since I was appointed to the representative for reel makers. You really did tell me much. 1) Deflection 2) Assumption 3) Deflection 4) Why would you need a smaller pinion? You skipped a number so I will take a stab at what your trying to say... 1. No I have never addressed your spool capacity. I don’t care 2. I guess my reasoning is an assumption... as could any answer given that doesn’t fit your assumption 3. My answer stands as stated, it’s not a deflection 4. I also still believe you don’t know what your saying as it now seems you are now retracting you correction. But it seems like no matter what you are over your head on this. 5. It’s called a gear RATIO. A relationship between two gears. If you reduce the main gear diameter you must also reduce the spool gear diameter if you want to keep the same ratio. Understanding this should be the foundation to even begin understanding this topic. You have proven many times you lack the basic understanding | ||
| johnsonaaro2 |
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Posts: 239 Location: Madison, WI | Backlash, did you even read nar160's response? IPT vs Handle radius is what matters when it comes to effort and thats basically it. spool size/gear ratio is what determines the IPT; so in terms of effort, they really only matter in that they create the IPT. Basic understanding of physics unpacks this issue quite simply so what is not clear here? To echo a previous comment, i was blown away by the tranx 400 HG this season. In terms of IPT/Power/weight ratio i dont think there's a better reel out there personally. I know of at least 2 guides that fished them hard all season and they didnt fail on them. I threw 8's to 12's to monster dussas to big jerkbaits with mine and it held up great. Proof is in the puddin'. 10/10 would recommend. | ||
| Beastly Backlash |
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Posts: 145 | anzomcik - 2/12/2018 9:31 AM Beastly Backlash - 2/12/2018 8:41 AM anzomcik - 2/11/2018 9:53 AM Beastly Backlash - 2/11/2018 Say what you want. At this point all you are going to do is continue to fish for things to argue about. I have yet to see you actual answer my questions. I have yet to see you acknowledge misstatements regarding line capacity by Shimano. And, I have yet to see you acknowledge that reel manufacturers design reels with over sized main gears for the purposes I pointed out. And if I am incorrect in my understanding, you have failed to put forth your own reason. I have yet to see you answer the question, why don't reel manufacturers just design their baitcasting reels with tiny main gears? You like to cry a lot and disagree a lot, but you can't step up and actually say something that actually defends your point of view. Tell me, why was the Tranx 500 not designed with a 10mm diameter main gear? If you can't answer that question, you need no longer speak. 1. I could care less about your spool capacity statement. 2.a reason for an over size could be to allow clearance of internal parts as mfg try to make the reels smaller. It could also be because of the material they are using, or the manufacture it process they are applying to make the gear would lend to larger work pieces. All of those are possible reasons. 3. A gear can only be so tiny to be effective, also see above answer for other possible reasons 4. As for defending my view, I’m pretty sure my example that you were changed your view on after the second time I posted it. My view is I don’t believe you have a full understanding of what your trying to prove. 5. To have a 10mm main gear you would need a 1.5mm spool gear. Not very conducive to manufacturing would be my guess since I was appointed to the representative for reel makers. You really did tell me much. 1) Deflection 2) Assumption 3) Deflection 4) Why would you need a smaller pinion? You skipped a number so I will take a stab at what your trying to say... 1. No I have never addressed your spool capacity. I don’t care 2. I guess my reasoning is an assumption... as could any answer given that doesn’t fit your assumption 3. My answer stands as stated, it’s not a deflection 4. I also still believe you don’t know what your saying as it now seems you are now retracting you correction. But it seems like no matter what you are over your head on this. 5. It’s called a gear RATIO. A relationship between two gears. If you reduce the main gear diameter you must also reduce the spool gear diameter if you want to keep the same ratio. Understanding this should be the foundation to even begin understanding this topic. You have proven many times you lack the basic understanding 1. Since you never addressed it then you missed my point that Shimano misrepresented the size of the reel based on overstating the actual capacity. 2. Your reasoning is an assumption. 3. Your answer was a deflection. My biggest fault is not using terms correctly. 4. You can have as big of a drive gear as you want without needing to change the pinion gear diameter, at no point did I say I was interested not in changing gear ratios (btw, by changing gear tooth size to decrease or increase gear count on a gear you can adjust gear ratio without adjusting any gear size). Ipt can be changed independent of the main gear and pinion gear. | ||
| Beastly Backlash |
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Posts: 145 | johnsonaaro2 - 2/12/2018 11:04 AM Backlash, did you even read nar160's response? IPT vs Handle radius is what matters when it comes to effort and thats basically it. spool size/gear ratio is what determines the IPT; so in terms of effort, they really only matter in that they create the IPT. Basic understanding of physics unpacks this issue quite simply so what is not clear here? To echo a previous comment, i was blown away by the tranx 400 HG this season. In terms of IPT/Power/weight ratio i dont think there's a better reel out there personally. I know of at least 2 guides that fished them hard all season and they didnt fail on them. I threw 8's to 12's to monster dussas to big jerkbaits with mine and it held up great. Proof is in the puddin'. 10/10 would recommend. I did read his post, I asked questions that were relevant and I feel he could legitimately answer as no one seems to be able to answer those questions. People seem to assume asking questions is always with negative intent. There are several factors at play here: handle length, main gear diameter, pinion gear diameter, spool diameter, and load resistance. So, how do we achieve higher ipt without ended up with a reel the size of a Senator 113 just to maintain power, efficiency of turning, torque, or what ever else you feel like calling it? | ||
| jvlast15 |
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Posts: 300 | When is this going into the basement for good? | ||
| anzomcik |
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Posts: 530 | Beastly Backlash - 2/12/2018 11:27 AM anzomcik - 2/12/2018 9:31 AM Beastly Backlash - 2/12/2018 8:41 AM anzomcik - 2/11/2018 9:53 AM Beastly Backlash - 2/11/2018 Say what you want. At this point all you are going to do is continue to fish for things to argue about. I have yet to see you actual answer my questions. I have yet to see you acknowledge misstatements regarding line capacity by Shimano. And, I have yet to see you acknowledge that reel manufacturers design reels with over sized main gears for the purposes I pointed out. And if I am incorrect in my understanding, you have failed to put forth your own reason. I have yet to see you answer the question, why don't reel manufacturers just design their baitcasting reels with tiny main gears? You like to cry a lot and disagree a lot, but you can't step up and actually say something that actually defends your point of view. Tell me, why was the Tranx 500 not designed with a 10mm diameter main gear? If you can't answer that question, you need no longer speak. 1. I could care less about your spool capacity statement. 2.a reason for an over size could be to allow clearance of internal parts as mfg try to make the reels smaller. It could also be because of the material they are using, or the manufacture it process they are applying to make the gear would lend to larger work pieces. All of those are possible reasons. 3. A gear can only be so tiny to be effective, also see above answer for other possible reasons 4. As for defending my view, I’m pretty sure my example that you were changed your view on after the second time I posted it. My view is I don’t believe you have a full understanding of what your trying to prove. 5. To have a 10mm main gear you would need a 1.5mm spool gear. Not very conducive to manufacturing would be my guess since I was appointed to the representative for reel makers. You really did tell me much. 1) Deflection 2) Assumption 3) Deflection 4) Why would you need a smaller pinion? You skipped a number so I will take a stab at what your trying to say... 1. No I have never addressed your spool capacity. I don’t care 2. I guess my reasoning is an assumption... as could any answer given that doesn’t fit your assumption 3. My answer stands as stated, it’s not a deflection 4. I also still believe you don’t know what your saying as it now seems you are now retracting you correction. But it seems like no matter what you are over your head on this. 5. It’s called a gear RATIO. A relationship between two gears. If you reduce the main gear diameter you must also reduce the spool gear diameter if you want to keep the same ratio. Understanding this should be the foundation to even begin understanding this topic. You have proven many times you lack the basic understanding 1. Since you never addressed it then you missed my point that Shimano misrepresented the size of the reel based on overstating the actual capacity. 2. Your reasoning is an assumption. 3. Your answer was a deflection. My biggest fault is not using terms correctly. 4. You can have as big of a drive gear as you want without needing to change the pinion gear diameter, at no point did I say I was interested in changing gear ratios (btw, by changing gear tooth size to decrease or increase gear count on a gear you can adjust gear ratio without adjusting any gear size). Ipt can be changed independent of the main gear and pinion gear. Cant you see i have 5 answers and you give me back 4? 1. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK ON THE SPOOL. I NEVER READ THAT PART AND WILL NOT. I DO NOT CARE 2. Please tell me the real reason then, obviously im wrong... 3. My Answer stands 4. I have no idea where your at 5. You are absolutely incorrect about the tooth count changes the ratio. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT. The gear teeth are of a certain pitch, both gears need to have the same pitch, you cant add teeth or take away teeth with out changing gear dia, unless you change the pitch of the teeth, at which point ratio stays the same. So if you drop the tranx to a 10 mm and say the spool gear is 10mm you have effectively made it a 1:1 ration. then you have a very low IPT reel. | ||
| Beastly Backlash |
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Posts: 145 | anzomcik - 2/12/2018 12:11 PM Beastly Backlash - 2/12/2018 11:27 AM anzomcik - 2/12/2018 9:31 AM Beastly Backlash - 2/12/2018 8:41 AM anzomcik - 2/11/2018 9:53 AM Beastly Backlash - 2/11/2018 Say what you want. At this point all you are going to do is continue to fish for things to argue about. I have yet to see you actual answer my questions. I have yet to see you acknowledge misstatements regarding line capacity by Shimano. And, I have yet to see you acknowledge that reel manufacturers design reels with over sized main gears for the purposes I pointed out. And if I am incorrect in my understanding, you have failed to put forth your own reason. I have yet to see you answer the question, why don't reel manufacturers just design their baitcasting reels with tiny main gears? You like to cry a lot and disagree a lot, but you can't step up and actually say something that actually defends your point of view. Tell me, why was the Tranx 500 not designed with a 10mm diameter main gear? If you can't answer that question, you need no longer speak. 1. I could care less about your spool capacity statement. 2.a reason for an over size could be to allow clearance of internal parts as mfg try to make the reels smaller. It could also be because of the material they are using, or the manufacture it process they are applying to make the gear would lend to larger work pieces. All of those are possible reasons. 3. A gear can only be so tiny to be effective, also see above answer for other possible reasons 4. As for defending my view, I’m pretty sure my example that you were changed your view on after the second time I posted it. My view is I don’t believe you have a full understanding of what your trying to prove. 5. To have a 10mm main gear you would need a 1.5mm spool gear. Not very conducive to manufacturing would be my guess since I was appointed to the representative for reel makers. You really did tell me much. 1) Deflection 2) Assumption 3) Deflection 4) Why would you need a smaller pinion? You skipped a number so I will take a stab at what your trying to say... 1. No I have never addressed your spool capacity. I don’t care 2. I guess my reasoning is an assumption... as could any answer given that doesn’t fit your assumption 3. My answer stands as stated, it’s not a deflection 4. I also still believe you don’t know what your saying as it now seems you are now retracting you correction. But it seems like no matter what you are over your head on this. 5. It’s called a gear RATIO. A relationship between two gears. If you reduce the main gear diameter you must also reduce the spool gear diameter if you want to keep the same ratio. Understanding this should be the foundation to even begin understanding this topic. You have proven many times you lack the basic understanding 1. Since you never addressed it then you missed my point that Shimano misrepresented the size of the reel based on overstating the actual capacity. 2. Your reasoning is an assumption. 3. Your answer was a deflection. My biggest fault is not using terms correctly. 4. You can have as big of a drive gear as you want without needing to change the pinion gear diameter, at no point did I say I was interested in changing gear ratios (btw, by changing gear tooth size to decrease or increase gear count on a gear you can adjust gear ratio without adjusting any gear size). Ipt can be changed independent of the main gear and pinion gear. Cant you see i have 5 answers and you give me back 4? 1. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK ON THE SPOOL. I NEVER READ THAT PART AND WILL NOT. I DO NOT CARE 2. Please tell me the real reason then, obviously im wrong... 3. My Answer stands 4. I have no idea where your at 5. You are absolutely incorrect about the tooth count changes the ratio. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT. The gear teeth are of a certain pitch, both gears need to have the same pitch, you cant add teeth or take away teeth with out changing gear dia, unless you change the pitch of the teeth, at which point ratio stays the same. So if you drop the tranx to a 10 mm and say the spool gear is 10mm you have effectively made it a 1:1 ration. then you have a very low IPT reel. 1. Then you need to go back and read those points because you missed my points that even got this conversation started. If you don't care, butt out because you don't even know why this topic started. 2. You say companies make larger gears to allow clearance for internal parts? Companies have made smaller gears for years without that issue. Then you give another option and use the term "could be". Clearly if I don't know what I am talking about, you shouldn't be talking because you know even less about what you are talking about. 3. You originally said "a tiny gear can only be so effective". Isn't that what I have been saying? You deflected when you said, "see above". 4. But, guess what, if you increase spool size and handle size, you get more ipt. Also, you obviously are not familiar with Shimano's reasons for using micro tooth gears, they increase gear ratio by adjusting gear tooth size. And we still gave no answer for why big low pros use big main gears if smaller main gears are just as effective. | ||
| anzomcik |
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Posts: 530 | 1. I do not care about your issues with what ever on line capacity. I care about you spreading wrong information. 2. That was a one of the reasons they may have gone that route, I was not in the design of any of these reels. I was asked for reasons, i gave you possible answers i see in a design like this. 3. you misquoted me, here is the real quote "A gear can only be so tiny to be effective". meaning you cant have a gear be useful with 3 or 4 teeth. 4. a) Handle size has nothing to do with IPT. b) 2" dia gear driving a 1" dia gear will always be 2:1 ratio. it doesnt matter if they have 10 teeth or 10,000 teeth. Shimano likely uses the fine teeth for smoothness, because the finer the tooth the smoother the reel, not to do your imaginary and magic ratio change. Learn the fundamentals | ||
| Zinox |
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Posts: 1100 | @ Beastly Backlash "And we still gave no answer for why big low pros use big main gears if smaller main gears are just as effective." This have also been answered. | ||
| Zinox |
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Posts: 1100 | @Beastly Backlash 4. But, guess what, if you increase spool size and handle size, you get more ipt. Also, you obviously are not familiar with Shimano's reasons for using micro tooth gears, they increase gear ratio by adjusting gear tooth size. No they don't. | ||
| Propster |
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Posts: 1901 Location: MN | jvlast15 - 2/12/2018 11:03 AM When is this going into the basement for good? Awe c'mon, it's just getting good! | ||
| Beastly Backlash |
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Posts: 145 | Zinox - 2/12/2018 1:30 PM @Beastly Backlash 4. But, guess what, if you increase spool size and handle size, you get more ipt. Also, you obviously are not familiar with Shimano's reasons for using micro tooth gears, they increase gear ratio by adjusting gear tooth size. No they don't. No they don't what? A bigger spool will collect more line per turn then a smaller spool. A longer handle helps you turn that bigger spool easier against resistance then a shorter handle. And, yes smaller teeth on gears will change gear ratio because you get more teeth on the same gears. At least that is the idea behind Shimano using micro tooth gearing, not everyone agrees that it works. Regardless, I got the answer to my question from a buddy of mine. There are multiple reasons for using a larger main gear in these bigger low profile reels., increased strength is only one of those reasons (which was already understood) but not the only reason; increasing the size of the drag washers for improved drag function is another, improving speed in conjunction with the relatively small spool diameter is yet another reason, finally use of longer handles paired with the larger main gear off sets effort required to turn the larger gear (but only worth while if the gearing, frame, and spool can handle the increased stress and resist flex). All this is combined into a low profile reel to maximize retrieve speed, maintain cranking efficiency with higher speeds, maintain strength while cranking against resistance, improve drag output, all while maintaining a compact and ergonomic device. | ||
| Beastly Backlash |
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Posts: 145 | jvlast15 - 2/12/2018 12:03 PM When is this going into the basement for good? Long debates are good for online forums. The thread never turned personal from what I saw. | ||
| Beastly Backlash |
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Posts: 145 | Zinox - 2/12/2018 1:28 PM @ Beastly Backlash "And we still gave no answer for why big low pros use big main gears if smaller main gears are just as effective." This have also been answered. No, not really... unless you want to quote were that question was answer, but no need to now. Got the answers to my questions else where. | ||
| Zinox |
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Posts: 1100 | “No they don’t” = Shimano does not change The gear ratio with their micro module gears. | ||
| Zinox |
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Posts: 1100 | Here you go again anyway. The part of implementing larger drag discs to increase drag is also a benefit, but The same could be achived in other ways. Zinox - 2/11/2018 8:51 AM Well i just explained why you don't just make small gears. Zinox - 2/11/2018 3:05 AM I do not believe anyone said Tiny gears are better, a tooth needs to be a certain size in order to transfer the load without breaking. You can increase durability of the gears by increasing the size. HOWEVER there are so many factors that affects the performance of gears, that "just making them bigger" are basically the cave man way of increasing durability, You have to look at the material selection, tooth profile, helix ratio, gear alignment, surface finish, lubrication, and so on. If all these factors are the same, and you simply increase the size you will increase long term durability, but not their ability to transfer torque. | ||
| upnortdave |
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Posts: 668 Location: mercer wi | Well to respond to original question, I thought the hg was a great reel for 9 blades. Pulled smoother with some resistance but not too bad. The nice thing about the hg is you don't have to crank your arms off to burn blades. I don't throw 10s much anymore. And I'd assume that rubber would be nothing to these reel because of very little resistance. I've used almost every reel on the market and the tranx 400 stands alone. Except for the 500 which is a monster. | ||
| anzomcik |
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Posts: 530 | 2" dia gear driving a 1" dia gear will always be 2:1 ratio. it doesnt matter if they have 10 teeth or 10,000 teeth. You are completely 100% wrong to think you can magically put more teeth on a gear and not change it’s size at the same time change its ratio. You lack the fundamentals, yet you keep going like you believe you do. | ||
| jvlast15 |
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Posts: 300 | This is what I have found. Love the 400hg. If I need blades to burn, I use it for anything up to 9s. If I wanna cast 10s, I move to my NaCl 5.4:1 | ||
| Kirby Budrow |
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Posts: 2281 Location: Chisholm, MN | Burning 10's is sooo 2011  | ||
| Beastly Backlash |
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Posts: 145 | anzomcik - 2/12/2018 3:38 PM 2" dia gear driving a 1" dia gear will always be 2:1 ratio. it doesnt matter if they have 10 teeth or 10,000 teeth. You are completely 100% wrong to think you can magically put more teeth on a gear and not change it’s size at the same time change its ratio. You lack the fundamentals, yet you keep going like you believe you do. Google how you calculate gear ratio. | ||
| anzomcik |
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Posts: 530 | Deflection... | ||
| upnortdave |
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Posts: 668 Location: mercer wi | Just drop it already everyone. | ||
| tolle141 |
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Posts: 1000 | I see what you're trying to say. That 10,000 teeth would "tick" more teeth on another gear. The disconnect is that an inch of edge on a a gear is going to only going to move an inch of edge on another gear. Smaller teeth don't change a ratio. They can increase surface area contacted between two gears and making things smoother, but they don't change gear ratios. | ||
| anzomcik |
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Posts: 530 | Let break this down. 2” dia gear with 20 teeth is meshed with a 1” dia gear with 10 teeth. Turn the 2” one complete revolution the 1” gear turn two complete revolutions. Couple ways to prove this but I will use tooth count. Because the 2” has 20 teeth it will move 20 teeth on the 1” gear per revolution. Since the 1” has 10 teeth it will need turn 2 times around to meet the 20 teeth of the 2” gear. You could compare the gears by tooth count 20:10. That can be simplified by a common factor of 10 to 2:1 Now one may say let’s make the 2” gear have 30 teeth. While you could easily do that. Since you kept the gear at 2” the teeth on the gear will become smaller (because your putting 30 teeth in the same circumference as the 20 teeth were). Those smaller teeth have a closer spacing and WILL NOT mesh with the 1” gear. If they do not mesh they will not work as a set of gears. Ok let’s make the above example work. Take your 30 tooth 2” gear that will no longer fit to the 10 tooth gear 1” dia. If you made the 1” gear a 15 tooth they would again mesh. That would give you a functional gear set. So what is the gear ratio now? We have 2” dia 30 tooth and a 1” dia 15 tooth. That’s 30:15. Reduce by the common factor of 15 you get 2:1. For the 30 tooth to work AND keeping the 1” dia gear the same the 30 tooth gear would have to increase in size to 3”dia. Those gears would then again mesh making a 3:1 ratio. This is a common way to express gear ratios as many reel manufacturers use this by saying 6.4:1. Meaning the spool spins 6.4 times around for 1 revolution of the crank handle | ||
| Beastly Backlash |
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Posts: 145 | anzomcik - 2/12/2018 8:36 PM Let break this down. 2” dia gear with 20 teeth is meshed with a 1” dia gear with 10 teeth. Turn the 2” one complete revolution the 1” gear turn two complete revolutions. Couple ways to prove this but I will use tooth count. Because the 2” has 20 teeth it will move 20 teeth on the 1” gear per revolution. Since the 1” has 10 teeth it will need turn 2 times around to meet the 20 teeth of the 2” gear. You could compare the gears by tooth count 20:10. That can be simplified by a common factor of 10 to 2:1 Now one may say let’s make the 2” gear have 30 teeth. While you could easily do that. Since you kept the gear at 2” the teeth on the gear will become smaller (because your putting 30 teeth in the same circumference as the 20 teeth were). Those smaller teeth have a closer spacing and WILL NOT mesh with the 1” gear. If they do not mesh they will not work as a set of gears. Ok let’s make the above example work. Take your 30 tooth 2” gear that will no longer fit to the 10 tooth gear 1” dia. If you made the 1” gear a 15 tooth they would again mesh. That would give you a functional gear set. So what is the gear ratio now? We have 2” dia 30 tooth and a 1” dia 15 tooth. That’s 30:15. Reduce by the common factor of 15 you get 2:1. For the 30 tooth to work AND keeping the 1” dia gear the same the 30 tooth gear would have to increase in size to 3”dia. Those gears would then again mesh making a 3:1 ratio. This is a common way to express gear ratios as many reel manufacturers use this by saying 6.4:1. Meaning the spool spins 6.4 times around for 1 revolution of the crank handle So yes, gear ratio is determined by gear tooth count. | ||
| anzomcik |
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Posts: 530 | Thank you for agreeing with me | ||
| Beastly Backlash |
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Posts: 145 | anzomcik - 2/12/2018 10:02 PM Thank you for agreeing with me Just so you know, you have been talking about keeping gear ratios the same, which was not what I was talking about, I was speaking about keeping ipt the same. Referencing my point about' "why doesn't the Tranx 500 just have a 10mm main gear", the point alluded to the fact that it would require a really big spool to keep the ipt at 34, which could be done independent of gear ratio. A really big spool makes for a reel with poor ergonomics. | ||
| anzomcik |
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Posts: 530 | Awesome...Great way to say you learned a thing or two... man you are sneaky only revealing your true angle till the end. Well played | ||
| Sidejack |
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Posts: 1082 Location: Aurora | Am i the only one who talked with a Shimano rep at a show the year the Tranx 500 debuted? The rep said the finer tooth'd gears were implemented for strength (finer teeth = more teeth engaged) AND smoothness. | ||
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