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| stdevos - 8/25/2017 3:50 PM
I think you are the only one talking about.... well, whatever it is that you're talking about.
You said "In other words the user will generally achieve the same speed with a HG as they would a PG." and have been trying to defend it since. It's the same as saying a bicyclist will generally achieve the same speed in first gear as they would in 10th gear. Think about it buddy, but stop thinking so hard.
I will continue because people are not understanding why that can be true. Because you insist on have the extreme of 1st and 10th I will go with it. Say in 1st gear you can go 10mph, when you achieve and maintain 10mph in 10th gear you are exerting the same force as you would going 10mph in first.
For you to go 10mph on a bike it requires X amount of force regardless of gearing. Assuming the gear can achieve that speed.
That's why I am saying a terminal velocity or maxing out the speed a given force achieves
Edited by anzomcik 8/25/2017 3:33 PM
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| Yeah but which one corners better |
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Location: Minnetonka | Bnelson, I haven't timed that accurately. I watched a video of myself burning 8s (clearly different) with an HG and it came out to about 25 revolutions per 10 seconds, so I cut that back to 2 per second for 10s. I don't have much going on today in the office... |
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Location: oswego, il | fishhawk50 - 8/25/2017 2:57 PM
ToddM - 8/25/2017 2:42 PM
Is the test subject wearing a buff and a wind shirt?
i wore a buff last week in canada.. i could not get my dbl 10's over 2.589 mph! any ideas why? ;- )
The whole problem seems to be inches per crank. |
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Location: Minnesota. | There it is again, I'm getting that weird buzzing sound, dagnabit... |
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Location: Contrarian Island | still thinking too hard...  you want to stand next to me and you cast your PG and I cast my HG and we'll see who gets their bucktail in first..pink slips for boats? give it up buddy you're not really making any sense... many guys have gone from the PG to an HG and once they do, they all realize they were missing out using their pgs...yes, it is easier, but easier in this comparison, does mean slower.
Edited by BNelson 8/25/2017 3:36 PM
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| Here ya go
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| Winner-Copo Camaro,,Challenger Buckshot,,Mustang Shelby GT ,,,or Volkswagen Jetta convertible "but" wearing a buff! |
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| Bnelson your completely missing it. I would put my house on it if you had a HG with a spinner on it and cranked as fast as you could it would be the same time as if you did the same with a PG with same bait and same cast length.
This isn't a me vs you. We exert different amount of force. We are talking the same force. What you are saying if if force is the same acting on the same object speed would be different. That is not correct |
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Location: Madison | First money, then boats, now a house. Only one way to settle this guys.
As someone who has thrown both reels extensively, I have $100 on Brad. |
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| I am a sixty-six fat old man who throws double tens four or five times a week. I believe throwing an HG with the Trinidad handle requires no more effort than throwing a PG with the stock handle. Using the same effort, the double ten moves faster with the HG. In addition, when adding extra effort the HG speed is much greater than any speed possible with a PG. I did not want to believe this. I was convinced that an Abu 7000 or the PG would do the same thing as the HG, but that is not true.
One can crank and get adequate speed out of a PG, but it does not compare to the speed of an HG. For me, this is a discussion about all day fishing more than physics. In my opinion, one cannot equal or maintain the speed of a PG fitted with a Trinidad handle with an HG. A Trinidad may help a PG but it cannot equal an HG.a
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| Anzo are you saying that x amount of force applied to any reel will equal the same speed because the gear ratio equals it out? |
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| If you apply the same force to differ reels the result would be the Same velocity of the bait. Keeping in mind the rpm of the spools would be different due to gear ratio and spoil dia. But the mph of the bait would be the same
Edited by anzomcik 8/25/2017 4:41 PM
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| So would you say that if you pulled double tens at the same speed with different reels the same force would be applied to each reel?
Edited by T3clay 8/25/2017 4:53 PM
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| I have a dumb (but serious) question. What does PG and HG stand for? |
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| T3clay - 8/25/2017 4:51 PM
So would you say that if you pulled double tens at the same speed with different reels the same force would be applied to each reel?
I would agree with this with the caveat that the revolutions of those reel handles would be different because the resultant forces would be different (i.e., the resisting force of a lower gear ratio reel would be less than that of a higher ratio reel, hence why a lower ratio reel handle would turn at a higher rpm under the same force put on a higher gear ratio reel). |
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| FishFearMe - 8/25/2017 5:02 PM
I have a dumb (but serious) question. What does PG and HG stand for?
Hmmm...good question. I always assumed PG was Power Gear and HG was High Gear, but I truly have no idea. I will have to Google search that for my own edification. |
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Location: Ashland WI | What about handle length? That has to play a part in "force" exerted. With a longer handle, one could exert the same (or more) force and it would feel less. |
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Location: oswego, il | If you exert the same force while constipated as you do normally you will have time to enjoy this whole thread. |
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Location: Southern Indiana | What's the best reel for burning double flushers? |
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| 14ledo81 - 8/25/2017 6:11 PM
What about handle length? That has to play a part in "force" exerted. With a longer handle, one could exert the same (or more) force and it would feel less.
Well, handle length provides you more moment arm, which will naturally apply more force. There are so many varibles to be considered that it is difficult to make absolute statements. For example, of you had two identical reels, but one is lubricated more completely (i.e., less friction), then that lubed reel with the same gear ratio will experience more rpm's than the unlubricate reel, because the coefficent of friction within the system is lower in the lubed reel. I can't speak for Anzo, but I am assuming he is making the assumption that all elements of the system are the same except gear ratio. I am also assuming he is considering that the DC10's reach their terminal velocity through hydrodynamic resistance and are not being pulled through a vaccum. With the resultant speed being capped and everything else in the system being the same except for gear ratio, then his argument is correct. Again, that is a theoretical argument and like you mentioned, there are so many other factors that differ (e.g., handle length, lubrication, hydrodynamic resistance of line used, muscle group in the arm being used to rotate the handle faster vs. powering through the resistance of the high gears, and on and on) that I think it is hard for people to conceptulize those factors being removed. And for the sake of this argument, personal experience, opinion, and perception are considered reality, so these discussions are as fruitful as the guys comment two above this post discussing his gastrointestinal issues. With that being said, these are still enjoyible threads to read.
Edited by Lucky Craft Man 8/25/2017 7:38 PM
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Location: Billings, MT | A few thoughts here
-I'm really upset I had a busy day at work and had to wait until now to read this thread
-I want to be friends with ToddM. I need more of his humor in my life
-I won't waste a second to defend why, but reel choice IS an OBVIOUS FACTOR
-this meme sums it up nicely.
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Location: Northern Illinois | So to answer the OP: no. |
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Location: MN | anzomcik - 8/25/2017 4:39 PM
If you apply the same force to differ reels the result would be the Same velocity of the bait. Keeping in mind the rpm of the spools would be different due to gear ratio and spoil dia. But the mph of the bait would be the same
The term you are looking for is not force - it is power. Power = work per unit time.
The velocity of the bait is related to the power being used to pull it. Work = force x displacement. Power = work / time = force * (displacement / time) = force * velocity. Force in this case is also a function of velocity.
Assuming no internal friction (not entirely true but irrelevant here), by conservation of energy the power being used to pull the bait is the power transferred to the handle motion by the user. So power is really the term you are getting at.
The power put into the handle motion is most simply expressed as 2pi x torque x RPM. Both torque and speed of revolution play a role. Also, torque is not equal to force. Torque = handle length x force, so handle length also plays a role.
IMO, the question is what is the limiting factor - is it torque/handle force, RPM, or what? If it really is true that your max speed is the same with the PG and HG, then apparently your limit on force (with HG) just happens to be the same as your limit on RPM (with PG). I can't imagine this is true for everyone. I certainly feel like I can reel a bait in faster with a high geared reel, even if it feels like more resistance. With a proper handle diameter, the force applied isn't really the limiting factor. |
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Location: E. Tenn | This is something I would have expected to see on the winternet..but I'm usually fishing then..
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| BNelson - 8/25/2017 11:18 AM
you're making it way more confusing than it is..
stand next to me with your PG, I will use an HG... we cast the same bait at the same time, mine will be to the boat faster with us both exerting the same force on the handle.... it's really that simple.
how this can't be true ?seriously how a 5.4:1 could be equal to a 8.1:1 in someone head? i don't get it........... |
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| ToddM - 8/25/2017 6:22 PM
If you exert the same force while constipated as you do normally you will have time to enjoy this whole thread. muhaaaa always the right phrase |
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Location: mercer wi | I lIke jams and preserves better then jelly. Jams spread better and you don't get clumping and can cover the whole slice of bread. Also like creamy c peanut butter |
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Location: oswego, il | upnortdave - 8/26/2017 8:02 AM
I lIke jams and preserves better then jelly. Jams spread better and you don't get clumping and can cover the whole slice of bread. Also like creamy c peanut butter
WTF, you just opened up pandora's box! Way to complicate this debate! At least we had one constant, force. Now force is a variable based on the bread, type of peanut butter and the jam or jelly. Chunks, no chunks, flimsy bread, creamy, not creamy. See what you did here!?!?!?!? |
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| supertrollr - 8/26/2017 4:25 AM
BNelson - 8/25/2017 11:18 AM
you're making it way more confusing than it is..
stand next to me with your PG, I will use an HG... we cast the same bait at the same time, mine will be to the boat faster with us both exerting the same force on the handle.... it's really that simple.
how this can't be true ?seriously how a 5.4:1 could be equal to a 8.1:1 in someone head? i don't get it...........
It's true because the same force is applied to both, the 5.4 would turn the handle 1.5 (roughly) times faster than the 8:1. In the quote what's limited is FORCE, not rpm. So with the same force the fast reel would be turned slower the slower reel turns faster.
If the example was you are limited to 20 rpm then the reel with more ipt would win, with that it would require more force to achieve 20rpm. |
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