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| I'll break it down before someone else does it 
REASONING...
One more question:
What is the reasoning for each and every action within every single instance within each occurrence in every situation and how do you compare those reasons to the others?
Love you guys. |
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Location: NorthCentral WI | This begs the question we're all wondering. What kind of drugs are you on? |
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| LOL!
Not a drug in my system... Just to throw it out there. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | The Eagle and Wabigoon studies lead way to assumptions that these fish moved to shallow/warmer water to digest. It's got nothing to do with it being specifically shallow only that it's warmer. It's also been argued that it doesn't make sense physiologically that they would want to move to warmer water because this would increase their metabolism and therefore speed digestion decreasing the time between necessary feeding. Apex predators generally don't work harder but work more efficiently.
Much like the origin of this thread it seems like we're talking about two different things now, fish being shallow in a creek for comfort vs. the statement that was made about fish moving shallow (warmer water) to digest. |
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| Keep an open mind and realize that these fish in the creek/river are mainly reacting to water temperature at certain times of the year. If it is all about comfort - please explain to me why this creek can be completely empty at 67 degrees when the river is a good 90?
The creek/river observation that was stored inside a brain based on what was perceived visually - relates to this discussion in so many ways. If you look into this example a little more... you will indeed - see a much larger picture. I know you can do it. Maybe even experience it for yourself? I can give you directions.
I see what you mean, though... and I did expect this sort of response from you. I assume that it can be hard for some to accept that someone you said was wrong, was indeed, correct about a lot of things. The subject was never changed... I am trying to expand the discussion by throwing out other ideas... I just so happened to accidentally challenge you by bringing up a realistic observation based on realistic occurrences. What was seen goes against your question is all... I still did not say you were wrong.
The scientists were not wrong and never will be considering a lot of their documentation is based on realistic events and actions related to their unique study. So what if it can not be applied to every single body of water... they are not wrong as long as their findings are true.
Hope you do not take this the wrong way... I tried to tell you that I agreed with you AND them. A Muskellunge is not a Muskellunge no matter where you put it. These fish have personality and if you stick around long enough and encounter the same fish long enough... you just might be able to recognize them and eventually be able to call them by the name you or someone else might give them
Alright... I'm done. I meant well, Will. You are one of many who have put in a lot of time and your willingness to share your thoughts in the public forum to this day - is respected. |
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| I will see you again, Will. I hope you would like to talk... because, I would love to listen. I think we are all on point here... I just throw too many variables into the mix far too often. I believe everything relates and when I am talking to people with the experience you and others have... I am inspired and usually have a lot of ideas going through my head. Trust me, it's all good and I can draw a pretty good picture. I appreciate your time |
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| Wow!!!! |
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| Had 60 degree water temp this past weekend. Probably seen 7-8 porpoising muskies. Some that were porpoising quite often. More than I normally see and I spend ALOT of time on the water. Was marking bait balls on my electronics around this activity. Did not get one to react to lures. Amd had plenty of time to try different lures. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | It's all good. I also never said anyone was wrong, we just make assumptions based on data and observations. When it comes to behaviors we'll never really know and can only make an educated guess why these fish do what they do. I wish I could truly know everything about these fish but the more I think I understand, the more I realize that I really don't understand. They do what they want when they want all we can hope is there are a few on a given day doing what we want them to be doing. |
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| I meant directions to the spot, also. lol... Was not saying I need to do anything out of the ordinary for you to experience Muskellunge sitting in a creek and come to a conclusion as to what in the world they are doing on earth at that particular moment in time
Oh man... I love MuskieFIRST. |
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Location: North St. Paul, MN | I just realized there is an "ignore this poster," option. Thank goodness! |
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| I promise I will try and be able to help out more and in a better way some day. |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | I believe fish Thermoregulate... and may explain some of the fish movements and habits we encounter with muskies. Question: how often do you observe "porpoisers" during cold water periods when there is very little temperature gradient in the water column? For me personally, it is very rare if at all. Does this tell us anything about why fish porpoise? |
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Location: Eagan, MN | Seems this thread has morphed from 'how to trigger bites from porpoisers' to 'why they porpoise'. That's okay with me because I think we can all agree porpoising is fascinating behavior.JLong, that muskies thermoregulate is undisputed. The fact muskies porpoise most frequently in the warm water period, when there is the highest level of thermal stratification in the water column, would suggest the behavior may be linked to thermoregulation. Still, even if this is true, we seem to have raised more questions than answers. Are they gulping air to stabilize themselves in warmer shallower water?? Or, is that deeper water?? Certainly, they often seem to leave a bubble trail as they slowly swim down, but do they always 'gulp' air when they porpoise? Is the air they gulp warmer and part of their thermoregulation?? What I've noticed about porpoisers is that they often tend to show this behavior quite close to the boat and have wondered if the fish wasn't simply curious as to what was going on above the water's surface, not dissimiliar to whales that 'spy hop'. We know muskies, like many other fish, are curious creatures. Still, none of this seems to rationally explain why so few will give chase and bite at the time they porpoise. Can we anglers return to these fish later and have angling success?? After dark perhaps? Or other prime times such as weather changes, solunar events, etc? So far, my own results have answered that question with a resounding 'no'. Brian
Edited by BrianF. 10/5/2016 2:13 PM
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| That is what is up. Awesome posts!
In late fall, the first storm will bring a lot of deep water fish to the shallows. This can be shallow water or they suspend high in the water column. This seems to happen during the first storm system of the season.. usually the first, big storm. These fish are extremely active and will generally follow anything and everything you throw at them... and hit, too. The wood fish become weed fish and the deep fish become fish that just roam the shallows all over the place. The wood just seems to be absent of life during this time... but, the strange thing is... they move back into the wood soon after the storms pass. Not really all that strange, though... that wood heats up when the clouds clear
Hurricanes...
Change in pressure and water temperature...?!
In rivers... they seem to porpoise during the hottest times during the summer with things happening in the evening when the water temperature begins to fall. These are most likely the fish that spend the majority of the day in a creek that is a consistent 67 degrees all summer long while the river fluctuates between 70 and 90 degrees. Sometimes the river can literally go from 70 degrees to 90 degrees from morning to evening and actually start to drop again before nightfall. As far as ways to trigger a reaction from these fish, they do not seem to be very active.
At random times during the warm-water season... we have gone an entire outing or trip without seeing a single fish porpoise... and then, we get a follow - and that fish begins to porpoise around the boat only to never follow again or even react to our lures as far as I know.
It seems like pressure fish are willing to bite... and temperature fish are less willing.
It makes sense... There are a lot of times when we have brought up big fish over open water. If they decide to go back down... they do not come back up if they struggle to get back down. So, in this case... temperature and pressure comes into play.
When we force fish out of their comfort zone, the change is instant...
The changes caused by the storm... it's a slower transition in both aspects |
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| Sorry for repeating a couple things... You guys brought up some good stuff and I wanted to include a few things.
A lot can be learned by comparing the behaviors of each and every single fish from as many bodies of water as possible. |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | BrianF, I only ask the question WHY they may be poropoising... in an effort to understand why those fish seem so difficult to catch. To me, it appears the porpoising activity is related to an environment change and they are preparing themselves for it. The environment change is presumably both a depth and temperature change. During summer when lakes stratify or have a large temperature gradient, the fish encounter more "change" when they move about their environment. They can feed on cooler water forage yet take advantage of warmer water temperatures afterwards for both metabolism/digestion benefits and muscle recovery/preparation for their next hunt (in deeper, cooler water). After turnover, I rarely see muskies porpoise. I'm guessing its because the environment is now the same from top to bottom. A fish can feed deep and stay deep... as going shallow no longer provides the benefits of warmer water. Thus, there is less environment change... and less need to regulate their swim bladder (IE: Porpoise to gulp air) in the fall vs summer. Back to why porpoisers seem to be so difficult to catch. Its my belief that they are doing it just AFTER feeding and they are preparing to seek out a comfort spot to thermoregulate. A fish that has a full belly is presumably more difficult to catch than one that is hungry. |
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| I wish a full belly stopped me from eating. |
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| Gulping air to inflate the swim bladder would make the fish more buoyant, and therefore make it more difficult for the fish to descend further into the water column. It would compensate for the pressure at the depths where they are headed to feed, but that doesn't explain why they are not catchable. If they're setting up to scour the the depths in search of a meal, they'd be eating, or at the very least chasing lures.
A possible explanation is that they are regulating their swim bladder to offset the effects of feeding (i.e. chasing food to the surface) Stands to reason - we find a lot of saltwater fish (mainly grouper) with distended stomachs after being brought up from the deep. The rapid ascent causes the swim bladder to expand faster than they can regulate it.
Another, simpler explanation is that they just ate a large meal. Filling the stomach with a bit too much food will compress (deflate) the swim bladder and cause buoyancy issues. It's common in many species of fish and can be caused by eating too much.
So that's my theory - they just ate, and need to re-adjust their swim bladders either from the act of feeding or the size of the meal they just ate.
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Location: MN | Reelwise - 10/5/2016 4:58 PM
At random times during the warm-water season... we have gone an entire outing or trip without seeing a single fish porpoise... and then, we get a follow - and that fish begins to porpoise around the boat only to never follow again or even react to our lures as far as I know.
I have seen that behavior a couple times too.
jlong - 10/6/2016 8:33 AM
To me, it appears the porpoising activity is related to an environment change and they are preparing themselves for it. The environment change is presumably both a depth and temperature change. During summer when lakes stratify or have a large temperature gradient, the fish encounter more "change" when they move about their environment. They can feed on cooler water forage yet take advantage of warmer water temperatures afterwards for both metabolism/digestion benefits and muscle recovery/preparation for their next hunt (in deeper, cooler water)
If that is the case, why is the behavior less common with pike? Do they simply move less / have a smaller, more homogeneous home range? Is there a physiological difference that would account for the porpoising or lack there of? |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | Pike are a cold water specie... and Muskies are a warm water specie. Perhaps you don't see pike porpoising because they do not thermoregulate like a muskie does? Those pike that are feeding deep simply stay deep while a musky will move shallow after feeding deep (in colder water) to enjoy the benefits of a warmer environment (ie. thermoregulation). Just a BST of course. |
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Location: MN | Seems reasonable. I like your theory because it makes sense of your observation about lack of porpoising after turnover. That could also potentially be lower temps --> lower activity. A couple follow up questions (for anyone):
On shallow lakes or lakes/rivers with enough current to avoid stratification, do you not see porpoising during the summer?
Are there examples of lakes with muskies where they seem to never porpoise? What are the characteristics of those lakes? Anything make them atypical?
Anyone know of any tracking studies done on pike? Something analogous to the Eagle lake study. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | I've never thought of the porpoisers going deep to feed, I've always thought of them as negative fish that are going deep to find cooler water that's closer to their comfort range. Maybe it's because they just ate something, maybe it's because there's not enough O2 in the shallow water and they're heading to deeper more O2 rich water. |
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| Will Schultz - 10/6/2016 2:37 PM
I've never thought of the porpoisers going deep to feed, I've always thought of them as negative fish that are going deep to find cooler water that's closer to their comfort range. Maybe it's because they just ate something, maybe it's because there's not enough O2 in the shallow water and they're heading to deeper more O2 rich water.
That's a reasonable explanation, but if it was simply thermoregulation, wouldn't you get at least a few of them to eat? Maybe low O2 levels + heat stress overrides the desire to feed? |
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| Could they be tweeting,,and not watching where their going like when we sway over on the road shoulder. |
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| happy hooker - 10/6/2016 5:57 PM
Could they be tweeting,,and not watching where their going like when we sway over on the road shoulder.
Maybe they're checking to see of you're using the right rod and reel combo or wearing the right buff before they decide whether or not to eat your lure...  |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | what size hooks would you use on a quick-strike rig if you wanted to target them with live bait? |
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| I had one stick it's head of the water and parallel the boat night fishing. I heard something on the bank so I shined my like up there to see what it was. Then out of curiosity shined my light down it the water for a few seconds then shut my light off. Not 5 seconds later I hear something and could faintly see it. Turn my light on and right where my light was shining there's a muskie with its head out of the water lol. That experience has always made me wonder if they are just seeing what's going on up there. |
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| jonnysled - 10/6/2016 9:27 PM
what size hooks would you use on a quick-strike rig if you wanted to target them with live bait?
That depends on whether you're using an HG or a PG. |
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