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Posts: 53
Location: Chicago, IL | How do you guys feel about guides/professional anglers competing in local tournaments? I get it, these tournaments are open to anyone, but I just think it’s a little bogus for local guides and pro anglers who compete in the PMTT to fish local tournaments. I know anyone can win on any given day, but I feel like it’s a little cheap for these big guns to be joining in smaller tournaments. |
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| I don't have a problem with it. If you are you are a local guide and fish in a tournament where folks know you, lot of pressure. If you do well, big deal, you are a guide, right? If you get skunked, just the opposite. You are supposed to be a hot shot guide and you got skunked? As to PMTT guys, anyone can fish most of the PMTT events, provided you have the entry fee. |
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Posts: 1969
| Wouldn’t bother me in the slightest… |
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Posts: 1759
Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | So your upset that big guns, local guides and pros are coming to Chicago to fish your local tournaments. C'mon man! You scared? What's your, "LOCAL" water? If you're competitive and choose to fish tournaments with an open mind, you might possibly take something positive away from it. Do you realize 99.9% of the best muskie fisherman could give a rats behind about sandbagging some local tournament. There are many small tournaments that make money for great causes.... The more the merrier. Lighten up Francis. |
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Posts: 478
Location: NW WI | Would I be peeed if LeBron James showed up to play in my local towns 3 on 3 basketball tournament during the yearly fall celebration because he knew he'd win? Naw, I'd loose respect for em and feel sad for his character.
However, that's a bogus analogy. Fishing has the X factor of Mother Nature which dictates all, we just take what we know to narrow down what X could be.
If you could make a living doing what you love, even though it still takes loads of road time,months of grinding, plenty of headache and heartbreak,missing your family, gambling some cash and more importantly your "cred" for a living; WOULD YOU?
Lots of folks I believe would answer no.
I get where your coming from man, I do, but I think your coming at it a little one sided. No guide or pro is entering a small tourney/contest just to get a quick "W".
Edited by 7.62xJay 5/10/2022 1:17 AM
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Posts: 20178
Location: oswego, il | I used to like the Nascar Xfinity series (back when it was the Bush series) when there were no restrictions on how many of those races the Cup drivers could run.
Having the best anglers in the tournament makes everyone a better angler and you can learn from them. I wish more of them would fish the local tournaments and get the biggest draw possible. The local ones give the most back to the recourse. Support them and fill their field! |
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Posts: 111
| don't want to play Chess vs Bobby Fischer? don't enter the tournament, bring a binoculars, and closely watch his Sicilian Sozin opening, two-bishop middle game, and passed pawn endgame. You can learn from a great one and not pay a dime. Just keep a respectful distance please.
17:46 timestamp: Olympic trainer, 100kg grip, dynamometer, whut?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pavYCzvg2fM
Edited by curdmudgeon 5/10/2022 6:34 AM
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Posts: 1664
| There are very few guides I consider professional guides. If you do it full time for a living then you have my respect. Otherwise you are a guy looking for some sucker to pay for your fishing trip. It also seems (at least in Walleye tournaments) that these guys require teams to get it done. They network with locals who just want to rub elbows with a "name" feeding them intel on the local bite. I assume it works the same way with the Muskie guys to an extent.
My opinion is you pay an entry fee you agree to compete against anybody else who pays up.
The problem isn't who enters, it's that you think you need to win a event to justify to yourself that you are good. Fishing went from a relaxing way to get a meal to to some sort of competition for whatever reason. Just pay your entry fee so the "pro's" have more prize money to win. |
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Posts: 770
Location: Delavan, WI | Not an issue with me, they have more to lose than the average Joe in my opinion, lots more pressure on them to catch a fish than a father/son team, besides if it's the waters they guide on it should be easy for them right. More often than not it's a crap shoot and muskies do what they do so anyone can win, doesn't bother me one bit, |
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Posts: 1172
| They generate money and tech us new pattens but fish the other way (I don't like crowds) |
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Posts: 32784
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | One doesn't have to be a guide or tournament angler to be a really accomplished angler. A lot of the time, I see really good anglers fishing a few tournaments, and by winning, getting the title 'pro'. As many times as not guiding tournament water is a curse.
Not a lot of secrets anymore. |
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Posts: 155
Location: Cedarburg, WI. | If you're driven to compete in anything the level of competition shouldn't bother you. As you consolidate talent the level of play rises, fishing is no exception. |
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Posts: 53
| It’s a fishing tournament. Not a catching tournament. Anyone can win. Do some people that put their time in have a advantage ? Yes. But to not allow some people to fish because they are good at it and do some guiding sounds ridiculous. They are open tournaments. As far as I can tell there is no participation award trophies in fishing and I hope there never will be. Most of these tournaments are fund raising affairs and have raffles and donations. It’s about getting together and having fun. If you win great. If you lose hopefully you learned something and had fun. Also if you look back 20 years ago it cost 150$ to fish most of these tournaments. And today with all the inflation and everything else. It still usually cost 150$ to fish them. It’s a friendly competition. Have fun. Catch fish. If you suck at catching fish than try to learn and have fun. |
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Posts: 8716
| The only advantage a guide has over Joe average angler is that he has probably spent a lot more time on the water lately. That can be good and bad. Yes, perhaps said guide has moved a couple fish over the last few days, maybe has a pattern going. But we all know how that is. "They were in here yesterday!" Meanwhile, someone is catching fish on a spot you didn't fish, or did fish, or fished the wrong way with the wrong thing...
I'll never forget the day we passed up a couple pretty accomplished anglers who beat us to an area we intended to fish. "Crap, ___ is already there! Well, okay. We're already down here. Wanna go try _______ island? *sigh*, I guess so..."
We passed them again about 90 minutes later after putting 5 in the boat. As the conversation usually goes: "Hey, how you guys doin? Get any?" "Nothin' Not even a follow! How about you?" Oh. Uhh.. 45", a 48" another 45", and two about 38"! "WHAT?! Since we saw you last?!" "Yeah. We were gonna fish here but you butt-holes were in the way. We figure we'd let you F around here while we caught all the fish!" "F YOU guys! You really got 5 in like the last hour??!" "That's because we don't suck like you guys!"
It was all friendly, lots of laughs back in camp but that's the way it goes. Another time we beat the crap out of a weed bed for a couple hours and watched another boat pull up as we left... "I feel sorry for those guys. There isn't poopy in there this morning. Should we go tell them? Hey, that guy's got a fish! We just went through there twice!!" |
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Posts: 330
Location: SE Wisc | Are there some exceptional anglers out there who can go to any water and find success? Yes, but not that many. From what I’ve seen most Muskie tournaments are won by local anglers who are on that water the most, not guides or “pros” (if there is such a thing in the Muskie world), unless it’s their home or guided water. |
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Posts: 357
| i think a worse case is when someone hires a local guide to fish a tournament. but then its fun when somebody from 20 hrs away who never fished the lake beats them.
goes back to the old adage control what you can control. you cant control who is in the tournament, you can just control how you fish. Catch a fish each day and things will work out. |
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Posts: 2274
Location: Chisholm, MN | PMTT anglers are not pros. Some are professional guides. Local anglers can and do beat the PMTT regulars by a long shot. |
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Posts: 5
| In my own personal opinion...the tournament is with the fish, not the other anglers. The key to success is besting the musky not your brethren of the sport. Any given day can be the day of your life... 4 fish day, new pb...etc etc. |
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Posts: 359
Location: SW Ohio | Ask the Cave Run guides how well they've done over the years fishing the PMTT on Cave Run. Being a local guide is not an automatic home run. |
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Location: MN | I like it. Nothing better than beating a guide on their own waters. Puts their ego in check and adds to the sweetness of the victory.
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Posts: 711
| Nershi - 5/11/2022 6:57 PM
Puts their ego in check and adds to the sweetness of the victory.
Having guided a fair amount I can assure you that your ego is put in check every single day that you push away from the dock with clients on board.
Edited by bturg 5/11/2022 11:35 PM
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Posts: 68
| I fish from the Chippewa Valley Wisconsin area up to the Hayward Wisconsin area, spending most of my time around Hayward. I'm really not in awe of many guides or scared of them for that matter. Scott Kieper is really the only guide that I look up to and respect. He is hands down way, way above the rest. I don't know much about Ty Sennett, he sticks to the Chippewa Flowage where I stay away from, but he seems to do well in the PMTT so he's obviously pretty good. I along with many other recreational fisherman will out fish 95% of the other guides including Pete Maina on any given day. Most guides are just guys that are lucky enough to be able to afford to be able to be a guide. Like some one else said, can get somebody to pay for their day of fishing. Many of the newer guides are trust fund guides fishing out of daddy's boat, making youtube videos or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I'm quite jealous everyday I'm on my way to work. I just don't think they are good fisherman and especially not good guides.
That being said, I personally don't mind guides fishing the tournaments. I do know that there was a decline in anglers for the Chippewa Valley Muskies Inc tournament mainly due to guides fishing and taking home all of the top spots usually. That kind of sucks because it's a fundraiser for muskie fishing. I don't fish that one. I do fish the Hayward area Muskies Inc Tournament and there aren't many guides that fish that one at all. Ty Sennett is usually in it, but I feel like he must be working most of the time because it seems like he's usually not up in the leaders.
I compare the guide trade to Heavy Equipment operators. Back in the day a lot of guys tried it, but there were very few that were really good Dozer and Grader Operators. Now everything is ran by GPS and there are a lot more guys that can get by doing it, but they don't have the respect of the old guys and aren't as good.
Guiding wise, the seasoned guys learned everything the hard way and are way better for it. The new guys can get by, but most aren't nearly as good as the guys who made it a living years ago. And I really don't think the dedication is there out of most either. |
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Posts: 32784
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Pete Maina doesn't guide. I'm sure he could, but that's not how he makes a living. Herbie does, and he's pretty darned good. I'm pretty sure neither would fish competitively these days.
'Many of the newer guides are trust fund guides fishing out of daddy's boat, making youtube videos or whatever.'
That's bull.
'I along with many other recreational fisherman will outfish 95% of the other guides including Pete Maina on any given day.' Are you saying the established muskie guides out there are worse anglers than 95% of recreational anglers? That is also...bull.
'I do know that there was a decline in anglers for the Chippewa Valley Muskies Inc tournament mainly due to guides fishing and taking home all of the top spots usually.' According to your comments above that should not be possible.
'Most guides are just guys that are lucky enough to be able to afford to be able to be a guide.' Uh, no. Most are independent business operators who have to be successful or out of business they go.
I guided for 23 years, a lot of those full time. It was neither easy or the yellow brick road but I made a living. I miss the trade enough so I decided to guide some again, and I don't really care who can outfish me personally, my job is to get the client into fish, entertain them, and educate as needed. |
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Location: MN | Looks like a couple guides got offended. |
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Posts: 68
| I said that I along with many other recreational fishermen will outfish 95% of the guides around, not 95% of recreational fisherman will outfish the guides. All I’m saying is that most of the so called guides around are a joke. They’re just flat out not good. I respect the guys that have put in the work to scratch out a living, but not for the guys that are 20, hauling their Ranger around that dad paid for and tailpiping the good guides and well known fisherman. For every good guide there are 10 that are just posing. |
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| There may be some "trust fund" wannabes, but guides make their living based on word of mouth. If you are not worth the money you charge, you will not get clients, period.
That has always been the case and with social media, word gets around much faster.
I don't know fishermen who are willing to dump several hundred dollars on a morning of fishing because the guy has a fancy Ranger. They talk to people, read reviews, etc.
Sometimes guides find a niche, serving a specific clientele. A guy who guided on Winnebago for walleye realized that there were folks with disabilities or maybe just age that were not going to go out in a standard fishing boat and bounce around on that big body of water. He outfitted a pontoon for fishing, widened the gate to accommodate wheelchairs, etc. And he puts folks on fish. That is being a good businessperson. |
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Posts: 32784
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Nershi - 5/12/2022 8:50 PM
I like it. Nothing better than beating a guide on their own waters. Puts their ego in check and adds to the sweetness of the victory.
Looks like a couple guides got offended.
I'm obviously not offended by anything here. Moderating this herd of cats is part of my daily job. Overgeneralizing and insulting the profession is rude. No need for that.
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Posts: 32784
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | cdubs - 5/12/2022 11:33 PM
I said that I along with many other recreational fishermen will outfish 95% of the guides around, not 95% of recreational fisherman will outfish the guides. All I’m saying is that most of the so called guides around are a joke. They’re just flat out not good. I respect the guys that have put in the work to scratch out a living, but not for the guys that are 20, hauling their Ranger around that dad paid for and tailpiping the good guides and well known fisherman. For every good guide there are 10 that are just posing.
10 to one are 'posers'? I also fish N WI from East to West and do not see an increase in guide numbers. In fact I believe there are less, not more than the past. Used to be at 7 AM in Boulder Junction there were near 40 guide boats picking up clients. Not anymore, and not for a long time.
What difference does it make who bought the boat? What matters is whether the guide can put fish in the boat. If not, they are quickly done. As in any other profession, if one stinks at it, one is out, so don't worry abut anyone who is as bad as you say, they won't last long.
Why Ranger, why not Warrior and Skeeter and all the other brands?
At what age would you approve someone enter the profession? Have to start somehwere. |
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Posts: 68
| I spoke with a friend who is a guide in my area, he told me there are over 200 licensed guides in the Hayward area. That's just him saying it, not sure if there is even a way to find that out.
I apologize, I was a little rude. I didn't mean to take this thread in a whole different direction. Long story short, I don't mind if guides/pros fish the small tournaments, but there are a great deal of people who don't like it. It's nice to see guides at the fundraisers especially, after all they're making a living off the resource we're trying to raise money for. |
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| There may be a lot of guides in the Hayward area but many of them guide for walleyes, not musky. Chippewa Flowage for example is a big body of water and a lot of folks hire guides there to help them learn where and how to fish for walleye. Costs a lot of money to stay at the resorts on the Flowage, why not spend some money to learn the lake and have fun instead of being frustrated?
As to age, guess it is a good thing no one told Greg Thomas and Spencer Berman they were too young to start guiding for musky on really large bodies of water. Of course Hall of Fame guide Bill Sandy started even younger, taking clients out at age 13. Good thing they were all too dumb to know better I guess.
Edited by North of 8 5/13/2022 9:41 AM
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