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Muskie Fishing -> Muskie Boats and Motors -> LiveScope and similar technology
 
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Message Subject: LiveScope and similar technology
jvlast15
Posted 9/1/2021 2:57 PM (#988553)
Subject: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 297


How are you guys using this technology in the musky fishing world? I am just trying to decide if the tech is worth an upgrade. Has it put any extra fish in your boat or made your life easier?
JZ2386
Posted 9/1/2021 4:59 PM (#988559 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 24


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnWyBi6e5Ls

I thought this was a really cool video. Not sure it will help you but you can get a good idea of how it works.
jvlast15
Posted 9/2/2021 10:57 AM (#988574 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 297


Yeah, thank you. I think its a super cool technology for sure. Is anyone actually using like that? Does it work that practically in a casting a weedline setting? Lets say I pull up to a spot - circling a sunken rock pile while casting - is it going to actually be practical to use in that way?
CincySkeez
Posted 9/2/2021 3:57 PM (#988582 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 585


Location: Duluth
I know its being utilized in open water situations quite successfully. Worth it to me if you can afford it, especially since it can be used all season.
Kirby Budrow
Posted 9/2/2021 4:20 PM (#988585 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 2256


Location: Chisholm, MN
You have the right idea. Lots of people doing it. Unfortunately it's putting a lot more pressure on the fish and we're seeing a lot more floaters this year because of it. Reason being people are pulling fish from deep water is temps that are way too warm. My advice is to be careful to target shallower fish with it.
dickP
Posted 9/3/2021 8:10 AM (#988592 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 301


True concerns for sure.I was fortunate to have it demonstrated to me by some experts. Incredible tool.
I’m not sure it’s for me nor good for the sport in the long run.Waiting to see.
TheShow
Posted 9/3/2021 8:17 AM (#988593 - in reply to #988592)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 347


Location: Vilas County, WI
Excellent tool; adds another element to locating, finding, and catching fish that previously went unfound or never saw a bait. I agree with Dick and Kirby above.

In the tournament setting, it seems to be gaining traction from a controversial standpoint. I know of one recent tournament where the anglers spent more time driving around live scoping fish vs actually fishing. Once they found one, they'd stop and try to catch it; then move on until they found another.

Edited by TheShow 9/3/2021 8:18 AM
killdeer
Posted 9/3/2021 5:57 PM (#988602 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 57


Let’s not forget that under water cameras we’re going to be the end of fish populations too. It’s a tool and useful in some aspects of musky fishing. Lest we all forget, finding them is only half the game.
Vilas15
Posted 9/3/2021 9:05 PM (#988606 - in reply to #988602)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 177


killdeer - 9/3/2021 5:57 PM

Let’s not forget that under water cameras we’re going to be the end of fish populations too. It’s a tool and useful in some aspects of musky fishing. Lest we all forget, finding them is only half the game.
]

I've always thought finding them was more like 90% of the game. I don't like the way things are going. Right now the only guys spending the big money on this stuff are the serious anglers that for the most part catch and release when it comes to musky bass and walleye. And once it becomes cheaper over time and every meat hinter can figure it out we're in trouble. The 360 is an issue for panfish on the ice.
sworrall
Posted 9/4/2021 3:04 PM (#988612 - in reply to #988606)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 32761


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Vilas15 - 9/3/2021 9:05 PM

killdeer - 9/3/2021 5:57 PM

Let’s not forget that under water cameras we’re going to be the end of fish populations too. It’s a tool and useful in some aspects of musky fishing. Lest we all forget, finding them is only half the game.
]

I've always thought finding them was more like 90% of the game. I don't like the way things are going. Right now the only guys spending the big money on this stuff are the serious anglers that for the most part catch and release when it comes to musky bass and walleye. And once it becomes cheaper over time and every meat hinter can figure it out we're in trouble. The 360 is an issue for panfish on the ice.


I have used the Aqua-Vu cameras since they came out and have a couple of quads on the way. See 360 degrees, used one last year. Did I catch more fish as a result? Not appreciably, no, but it sure was cool. I've had a 360 on my ride since those came out. Do they make it easier to find fish? Yes. Easier to catch them? Yes. Will the average guy ever buy and employ/learn how to use them? I don't know, I get some pretty amazed looks and comments because of the rigging on my little Lund at the landings with the AV camera, 'Bird 360, and 1Boat network. We are a long way from average use, but it'll happen. 5 fish limits of each pannie is the answer, with size limits on some waters, too. Like on Indian, 5 gills, 5 crappies, 5 whatever.

I know the southern crappie guys are nutso over the live screen units. Limits down there are changing too, so we'll see.

On the ice I'm not worried too much. The thousands of Aqua-Vu hours I have has convinced me the fish move WAY more than most think and move all the time, and running around with an 8 to 10" Mega and a 360 transducer is not for the weak of patience sort of individual. Tip-downs with 5 guys like I see so often is so damaging it's hard to describe, and no need to move around then if you know what you are doing.
fatturtle011
Posted 9/4/2021 6:12 PM (#988623 - in reply to #988612)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 37


Aldo Leopold once made the comment that we as resource users " tend to kill what we love" Hope not but he was right about a lot.
TCESOX
Posted 9/4/2021 8:18 PM (#988625 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 1168


If we have appropriate harvest regulations, and adequate enforcement, things will be fine. Harvest regs have been moving in the correct direction in recent years. There will always be meat hogs, but the culture is changing. Most newcomers to fishing have no problem with selective harvest and catch and release.
North of 8
Posted 9/4/2021 9:19 PM (#988626 - in reply to #988625)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




TCESOX - 9/4/2021 8:18 PM

If we have appropriate harvest regulations, and adequate enforcement, things will be fine. Harvest regs have been moving in the correct direction in recent years. There will always be meat hogs, but the culture is changing. Most newcomers to fishing have no problem with selective harvest and catch and release.


I agree but the part of the equation that is lacking in WI is adequate enforcement. Oneida County, with several hundred lakes and many miles of river and streams has only one warden dedicated to fish and game regulation enforcement. I fish spring, summer, fall and winter on the chain where I have lived full time for 6 years and have encountered a warden one time. Prior to that we had a seasonal place for 12 years and never was checked by a warden. If we want to preserve our resources, we need to invest in more enforcement. If that means higher license fees, so be it. The other thing is that if you know of limit violations, etc., call it in.
Kirby Budrow
Posted 9/5/2021 7:33 AM (#988628 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 2256


Location: Chisholm, MN
Also the delayed mortality and just an increase in the amount of fish caught is not affected by bag limits. It’s definitely harmful to muskies. I’m not saying don’t get it. Just be careful. I have mega live on preorder myself.
TCESOX
Posted 9/5/2021 10:53 AM (#988630 - in reply to #988626)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 1168


North of 8 - 9/4/2021 9:19 PM

TCESOX - 9/4/2021 8:18 PM

If we have appropriate harvest regulations, and adequate enforcement, things will be fine. Harvest regs have been moving in the correct direction in recent years. There will always be meat hogs, but the culture is changing. Most newcomers to fishing have no problem with selective harvest and catch and release.


I agree but the part of the equation that is lacking in WI is adequate enforcement. Oneida County, with several hundred lakes and many miles of river and streams has only one warden dedicated to fish and game regulation enforcement. I fish spring, summer, fall and winter on the chain where I have lived full time for 6 years and have encountered a warden one time. Prior to that we had a seasonal place for 12 years and never was checked by a warden. If we want to preserve our resources, we need to invest in more enforcement. If that means higher license fees, so be it. The other thing is that if you know of limit violations, etc., call it in.


You are correct. That is what I meant by adequate enforcement. It doesn't have to be ball busting enforcement, just enough busts with fairly harsh penalties, to deter the majority of those inclined to fudge, to tow the line for fear of the consequences. Enforcement is an expensive endeavor. While you may not have been approached by a warden, I guarantee that you have been eyeballed by them. You just didn't exhibit any behaviors that caused them any concern. They tend to approach people that are a little suspect in their actions, and those they have not had any eyeballs on. The true poacher types will not be deterred by enhanced enforcement or severe penalties. The key, is to keep their numbers very low.

Kirby is right about muskies, though, since they can be more difficult to successfully release, and harvest isn't really a thing, in the big picture. Education regarding barotrauma and water temperature, and hook cutting, are very important.
Kirby Budrow
Posted 9/5/2021 1:01 PM (#988632 - in reply to #988630)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 2256


Location: Chisholm, MN
TCESOX - 9/5/2021 10:53 AM

North of 8 - 9/4/2021 9:19 PM

TCESOX - 9/4/2021 8:18 PM

If we have appropriate harvest regulations, and adequate enforcement, things will be fine. Harvest regs have been moving in the correct direction in recent years. There will always be meat hogs, but the culture is changing. Most newcomers to fishing have no problem with selective harvest and catch and release.


I agree but the part of the equation that is lacking in WI is adequate enforcement. Oneida County, with several hundred lakes and many miles of river and streams has only one warden dedicated to fish and game regulation enforcement. I fish spring, summer, fall and winter on the chain where I have lived full time for 6 years and have encountered a warden one time. Prior to that we had a seasonal place for 12 years and never was checked by a warden. If we want to preserve our resources, we need to invest in more enforcement. If that means higher license fees, so be it. The other thing is that if you know of limit violations, etc., call it in.


You are correct. That is what I meant by adequate enforcement. It doesn't have to be ball busting enforcement, just enough busts with fairly harsh penalties, to deter the majority of those inclined to fudge, to tow the line for fear of the consequences. Enforcement is an expensive endeavor. While you may not have been approached by a warden, I guarantee that you have been eyeballed by them. You just didn't exhibit any behaviors that caused them any concern. They tend to approach people that are a little suspect in their actions, and those they have not had any eyeballs on. The true poacher types will not be deterred by enhanced enforcement or severe penalties. The key, is to keep their numbers very low.

Kirby is right about muskies, though, since they can be more difficult to successfully release, and harvest isn't really a thing, in the big picture. Education regarding barotrauma and water temperature, and hook cutting, are very important.


One thing that I am not sure about is barotrauma. Steve can chime in. Supposedly muskies are different from many other species and are not as affected by barotrauma. But what we saw on vermilion this year was nothing short of a tragedy. So many very large muskies floating and really the only difference this year was the amount of people sharp shooting very deep fish all night. They hover over the top of fish and harass them until they bite. And the next morning there are a few floating. I found one that was 54.25, which a dnr employee measured, and heard of a 56.5 found as well. And they do it all season now too. The same dnr employee told me of a 52 that someone killed after they sharp shot it about 3 weeks ago. I see it as very harmful to the population. Another factor this year was the warm temps in June. If muskies aren’t affected by the change in depth, then it must have been the sudden change in water temperature they were exposed to by being pulled from 15’ or more up to surface temps of close to 80 degrees. My whole point is that if you are going to sharp shoot muskies in open water, please pass by the fish that are more than 10 feet below the surface and consider water releases as much as people. I’m advocating for more and more water releases and I’d like to see it become the norm. I like a nice picture like everyone else but not at the expense of the fish.
BrianF.
Posted 9/6/2021 10:18 PM (#988650 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 284


Location: Eagan, MN
Guess I’ll weigh-in since I’ve been a Livescope user for a couple years now.

If you believe the DNR, barotrauma doesn’t become an issue until a fish is caught from deeper than 25’ to 30’. Where I fish, these summertime basin dwellers seem to hold in the 12’-18’ depth zone, most often around 15’. Rarely are they below 20’ in the summertime, so doubtful floaters are being killed from barotrauma. More likely they are being ‘over-loved’ after being caught, bleed out from being gill hooked, or over-stressed in very warm water. Some floaters are intentionally killed by the ‘anti-musky’ crowd that number far greater than you would think. There have always been summertime floaters on V. While we hate that these fish die at the hands of anglers, this is not a new phenomenon.

And, for what it’s worth, I’m getting a bite from perhaps 1:15 muskies found with Livescope - not exactly results that would menace the muskie population. My results were probably better before I had Livescope. While a game changer in many ways, Livescope might only be shifting the fishing pressure around in the system, bringing pressure to areas that have historically allowed fish some degree of sanctuary from angling effort. Hours spent plying open water with Livescope means that shallow fish - once the target of pre-Livescope anglers - are getting a break, not only from pressure but also from the inadvertent mortality angling invariably brings.
jvlast15
Posted 9/7/2021 11:19 AM (#988667 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 297


All good information. I highly doubt I will ever be someone who trolls around the basin looking at LiveScope in order to spot fish. I would simply use it - like on LOTW - circling a rock structure as I am already casting to see if I am casting at a fish or simply casting at a pile of rocks. That is how I would like to use it. Simply to see if there is a chance of being productive.

Every example of LiveScope I have seen are usually open water or deep water settings. Are you guys seeing fish shallow as well? Does it work that well under those conditions?
sworrall
Posted 9/7/2021 10:26 PM (#988698 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 32761


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
I'd bet some of the increased mortality is water temp and DO related, taking them from cooler waters, stressing the fish up into warm surface water, and then releases where the fish stays up there.
hans
Posted 9/8/2021 9:12 AM (#988707 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 22


I bought one last spring and I if I had to do it again I dont think I would invest the money in one again. I have not used it as much as I thought I would. Id rather be casting then staring at a screen. I think it will be useful for ice fishing when you are sitting there anyway. And I also think it will be cool in the fall while sucker fishing. You can keep an eye on your sucker and see if anything is around it. But for me it is a lot of money for just those two situations.
cdubs
Posted 9/8/2021 11:03 AM (#988709 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 68


Tournament guys don't even hardly pre-fish anymore. I watched Pete Maina drive around for almost 2 hours one day before he finally stopped and fished. 360 and side imaging are a game changer and I don't necessarily agree with either. Totally taken the art of being a musky guy away. Guys drive around, mark a fish on side image, throw a couple of cast and move on to the next, have no problem cutting in front of guys on a spot to do it. It's totally here to stay though, so I guess we need to get used to it. As far as the sharp shooting, that is happening around my area as well. Hayward, WI area. Also guys are trolling the Thermocline as well and yanking those fish up into warm water on short lines going 4 MPH or greater. Is it an efficient way to catch fish? Absolutely, but as Kirby stated we shouldn't even be targeting those fish as I guarantee it's contributing to dead fish. Long story short, guys these days are more about the pictures and stories than putting in the work to gain knowledge and create the stories. Back in the day nobody said anything about what they were doing and you were able to keep certain things to yourself. Now a guy in my area can dissect 4 or 5 lakes in an afternoon without throwing a cast.
Kirby Budrow
Posted 9/8/2021 1:28 PM (#988713 - in reply to #988709)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 2256


Location: Chisholm, MN
I think most of us have the right idea here. My main takeaway is that we need to normalize water releases and make them cool again. If you need a good picture of a big one, make it 20 seconds or less.
North of 8
Posted 9/8/2021 1:52 PM (#988714 - in reply to #988713)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Kirby Budrow - 9/8/2021 1:28 PM

I think most of us have the right idea here. My main takeaway is that we need to normalize water releases and make them cool again. If you need a good picture of a big one, make it 20 seconds or less.


Guy that lives on the same chain had an interesting suggestion after watching a group of three older guys spend several minutes taking photos, etc. with a fish that clearly was in the low 30s before finally returning it to the water. He suggested that you would be allowed to remove a fish from the water and measure it to see if it met he minimum, 40" on this chain, but if it did not you would have to immediately return to the water. You could hold the tail and take a photo in the water but no photos out of the water for fish under the minimum. Would prevent the spectacle of guys keeping a small fish out of the water while they pose, pass it around, etc. I think such a reg. would have a snow ball's proverbial chance, but, who knows.
Fishboy19
Posted 9/8/2021 2:08 PM (#988716 - in reply to #988709)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 296


cdubs - 9/8/2021 11:03 AM

Tournament guys don't even hardly pre-fish anymore. I watched Pete Maina drive around for almost 2 hours one day before he finally stopped and fished. 360 and side imaging are a game changer and I don't necessarily agree with either. Totally taken the art of being a musky guy away. Guys drive around, mark a fish on side image, throw a couple of cast and move on to the next, have no problem cutting in front of guys on a spot to do it. It's totally here to stay though, so I guess we need to get used to it. As far as the sharp shooting, that is happening around my area as well. Hayward, WI area. Also guys are trolling the Thermocline as well and yanking those fish up into warm water on short lines going 4 MPH or greater. Is it an efficient way to catch fish? Absolutely, but as Kirby stated we shouldn't even be targeting those fish as I guarantee it's contributing to dead fish. Long story short, guys these days are more about the pictures and stories than putting in the work to gain knowledge and create the stories. Back in the day nobody said anything about what they were doing and you were able to keep certain things to yourself. Now a guy in my area can dissect 4 or 5 lakes in an afternoon without throwing a cast.


That is right on CDUBS!

IMO, 'Target Fishing' as they call it theses days all borders on being unethical as a fisherman, particularly when the muskies are in their deep water sanctuaries. Its destroying what's left of legendary lakes like Vermilion. Fish need a break, an escape from us, and now we don't allow it. Its really a shame in my eyes, and I think the worst is yet to come. There is no end in site to these electronics.

Stocking is down nearly everywhere for one reason or another. Muskie angling is up and more popular than ever. Mortality/Delayed mortality of adult fish will continue to go up. Its not a good combination. It was rare to see a floater years ago, now it seems to be quite common, and some BIG ones.

Climate changes create warmer epilimnion temperatures on an annual basis these days in the north. Historically the natural evolutionary process is not this quick. Most animals can't adapt fast enough to the current environmental changes going on. Rapid changes in environment lead to the extinction of certain species. I see muskies being on the low end of the survival rate due to increased warmer waters and their sensitivity to them. The don't exist naturally in the warmest areas of North America. They are an apex predator, and naturally exist as a low density population even in the most optimal environment.
Landry
Posted 9/8/2021 8:31 PM (#988723 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 1023


I think livescope is totally worth it and have one myself. I have bagged some nice fish jigging with it (not deeper than 25’. It is also great for casting open water bait relating muskies.
Times change and this new tech is very purposeful. Used properly and ethically with good water temps it is a great tool. It is not ubraid or unsporting imo. And from what I have seen, most days you will hook 1/20 of the fish u move. I was surprised by how many deep follows I was likely getting over the years unbeknownst to me.
fatturtle011
Posted 9/12/2021 6:53 PM (#989805 - in reply to #988723)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 37


Wow. I now know I have heard it all. Thanks to Aldo Leopold and Pogo. "We have met the enemy and they are US. Good luck dudes.
sworrall
Posted 9/12/2021 9:04 PM (#989812 - in reply to #989805)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology





Posts: 32761


Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Keith catching deep open water crappies recently.


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cdubs
Posted 9/13/2021 7:54 AM (#990809 - in reply to #989805)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 68


fatturtle011 - 9/12/2021 6:53 PM

Wow. I now know I have heard it all. Thanks to Aldo Leopold and Pogo. "We have met the enemy and they are US. Good luck dudes.


Exactly! In most cases we destroy what we love! That is just the American way in general. Always searching for the next leg up instead of enjoying what is right in front of you. In the case of fishing, the fish really have no way to adapt. They are stuck in the same bowl for the rest of their lives. I remember 35 years ago catching big bluegills one right after another all over the place. Affordable power augers and electronics has made that almost non-existent these days because people can't control themselves. Same will hold true for muskies. Although with all of the information and science out there saying it's bad to jerk those fish up from the deep in warmer temps, guys will not be able to resist the urge to hover over them and try to jig them up. Ultimately killing the large fish in the system that have evaded us for so long out there. I'm not sure about most places in the world, but I know the fish in my area that get to the 48-50" range are well over 20 years old. Stock all you want, fish like that aren't replaceable.
Landry
Posted 9/13/2021 10:49 PM (#990830 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 1023


I can see a few old timers here are getting way too paranoid.
People said the same thing when those dam “ fish finders”came out years ago.
bturg
Posted 9/14/2021 12:02 AM (#990831 - in reply to #988553)
Subject: Re: LiveScope and similar technology




Posts: 711


I have it. Other than for crappies I only use it to find and define structures...especially extensions or lone rock humps that I didn't know were there. There is nothing more satisfying to me than identifying a new "spot" and having success on it the first time I come back and fish it. I love that aspect of it. The open water aspect doesn't interest me much and a part of me is a bit concerned about the fish having a place to rest/escape"away from the crowd". Time will tell if the old farts are correct in being concerned about it's impact. It is a game changer for sure no matter how you look at it and more fish will be caught because of it.
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