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Muskie Fishing -> Muskie Boats and Motors -> Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?
 
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Message Subject: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?
Cfollow
Posted 6/29/2018 11:44 AM (#911132)
Subject: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?


I asked this in the middle of another thread and didn't get any response so I will try it in it's own thread.
Can the surface of the water be detected on Lowrance side scan or is there a blind spot? I have heard Hummingbird users say they can make out waves, rain, their topwater lures and follows all right at the surface. I would hate to update my Lowrance only to find it cant see in the top 5-10 feet with side scan.
Jerry Newman
Posted 6/29/2018 12:31 PM (#911139 - in reply to #911132)
Subject: RE: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Location: 31
Good question; I honestly don't know about seeing the surface with Lowrance SS and I've been using them for years. Logically, the transducer is mounted below the surface and with wave action I would suspect there's always going to be a blind spot per se, and the further you move away from the boat the more pronounced it might be.

I primarily use it for trolling so I can't help you with the casting/seeing follows but can tell you that we can see the down rods going in and out of the water, and I can definitely see fish in the 5-10' range well away from the boat based on their shadow.

I think that's a good question to ask a Lowrance tech, and then report back here.
Fishysam
Posted 6/30/2018 8:53 PM (#911244 - in reply to #911132)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Posts: 1209


Correct, lowrance doesn't get to the surface,

birds will pick up floating docks, buoys, have not seen rain or lures.

I saw the specs at one point and lowrance was 8-14* narrower so it's not much but where birds do so much better than lowrance is shallow water, since it does go straight out there is no automatic missing information (weather or not you get the display you want is another question)
4amuskie
Posted 7/1/2018 6:39 PM (#911297 - in reply to #911132)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




I suppose if you mounted the transducer at water level you might see a slice of the surface, but since the transducer is usually mounted 1-2 feet under the surface on the transom I dont see how this is possible. I can see extremely far with my Lowrance in very shallow water. You do understand that side view is a slice in the water column and not a cone, right?
Jerry Newman
Posted 7/1/2018 8:11 PM (#911303 - in reply to #911297)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Location: 31
I don't think that mounting a transducer that shallow is even practical, especially with any type of wave action. I would honestly question just how effective scanning something on the surface might be anyway with just the turbulence created in 1’ waves.

This did get me thinking though and I will be watching a little more when it's calm to see how far away and how close to the surface the Lowrance 3-D will report. The SS recording the rods going in and out of the water that I mentioned earlier are only down 2-3’… but of course that's right next to the boat too.

Kind of an FYI; we typically don't side scan more than three times the depth we are fishing, if we are 8-10’, the SS is set at 30’ off either side of the boat. The 30’ setting (60’ total) covers a six line spread nicely, it's always cool when we ID a muskie on the SS and bang, the lure running closest gets eaten.

For us, one of the more important aspects is scale, we try to run the boat at basically the same speed with the same coverage which allows us to really dial things in… can certainly tell a 50” class fish from a 40” for instance so we know whether to turn around or maybe try something else. If we are lucky enough to have the outside board get eaten a few times in a row, we might put another board or two out and increase coverage to 50’, but that would be about max.

As most of you know I'm pretty much troll exclusively anymore because I trashed my R elbow casting. However, if I was still a diehard caster I would be looking into mounting an SI transducer on the bow to help see follows… would be pretty valuable to be that much more prepared.


Edited by Jerry Newman 7/2/2018 4:40 PM
Fishysam
Posted 7/3/2018 8:16 AM (#911442 - in reply to #911303)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Posts: 1209


Jerry Newman - 7/1/2018 8:11 PM

I don't think that mounting a transducer that shallow is even practical, especially with any type of wave action. I would honestly question just how effective scanning something on the surface might be anyway with just the turbulence created in 1’ waves.

This did get me thinking though and I will be watching a little more when it's calm to see how far away and how close to the surface the Lowrance 3-D will report. The SS recording the rods going in and out of the water that I mentioned earlier are only down 2-3’… but of course that's right next to the boat too.

Kind of an FYI; we typically don't side scan more than three times the depth we are fishing, if we are 8-10’, the SS is set at 30’ off either side of the boat. The 30’ setting (60’ total) covers a six line spread nicely, it's always cool when we ID a muskie on the SS and bang, the lure running closest gets eaten.

For us, one of the more important aspects is scale, we try to run the boat at basically the same speed with the same coverage which allows us to really dial things in… can certainly tell a 50” class fish from a 40” for instance so we know whether to turn around or maybe try something else. If we are lucky enough to have the outside board get eaten a few times in a row, we might put another board or two out and increase coverage to 50’, but that would be about max.

As most of you know I'm pretty much troll exclusively anymore because I trashed my R elbow casting. However, if I was still a diehard caster I would be looking into mounting an SI transducer on the bow to help see follows… would be pretty valuable to be that much more prepared.


Yes I keep hearing the 3 time depth for range reference as "good" practice but birds will easily do 50' in 10'of water. Seeing the surface can be very important or not important depending on conditions and fish behavior, seeing the bottom of the floating dock floats makes you confident that there is bait or no bait/fish under the float. Sometimes they will be right under them as the hold heat. Or even open water trolling when the bait if on the surface on a calm day if you miss the top 10* you can easily miss the bait up top.

Something that drove me up the wall is the lowrance elite ti has the side Imaging pretty much on autopilot for range, scroll speed, and gain, and that really seems to leave a lot on the table (I only had a hour to help a buddy learn his unit, I may have not found it)
Fishysam
Posted 7/3/2018 8:19 AM (#911443 - in reply to #911132)
Subject: RE: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Posts: 1209


The left side blocks are the bottom of a floating dock



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4amuskie
Posted 7/3/2018 10:54 AM (#911458 - in reply to #911132)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Very interesting pic. It was always my understanding that the surface is where the boat is in the image and that anything between the boat and bottom is suspended in the water column. Meaning that those floats would be 10 feet down in the water. Since that is unlikely then I would imagine that the image is actually being produced by a reflection of the ultra sound waves reflecting from the bottom to the floats and back thus showing the image 10 feet under the surface.
Fishysam
Posted 7/3/2018 11:07 AM (#911459 - in reply to #911458)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Posts: 1209


S I doesn't understand the "depth" just the distance to the transducer, but yes the space between the transducer and down is the water column, but the water column continues straight out till it's off screen. If you have ever noticed a grain of rice return and then the shadow is touching it than means touching bottom or extremely close, now if the grain of rice is farther away that means it is suspended, and if you have the sweep 50' left and there is a fish suspended at 30' you won't get the shadow, here is a link to a full in depth with illustrations- http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=786451 you will need to make an account to see pictures I think
Fishysam
Posted 7/3/2018 11:18 AM (#911460 - in reply to #911132)
Subject: RE: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Posts: 1209


In 50' of water these fish would leave the grain of rice return in the same spot about 5' off the bottom, then the shadow for each fish would become farther away on the "bottom" as you come up, and if the outside to the right is set at 100' you may just barely get the shadow on the fish #3, Fish above that will not leave a shadow

Edited by Fishysam 7/3/2018 11:21 AM



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Jerry Newman
Posted 7/5/2018 8:56 AM (#911562 - in reply to #911460)
Subject: RE: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Location: 31
Excellent point on the 30’ Sam… really like the grain of rice comparison! We've been using the LSS 2 transducer until this year but the new 3D definitely has more detail and we can probably safely consider increasing the distance on the side scan now. TY!

We started out with the 3x because that was what was recommended way back when, and then after getting use to it we found that it certainly helps to keep a better perspective because things are always the same scale. Even though the 30’ we've been using covers the 6 line spread, it can only be a good thing to look outside of it even further if the SC allows.

When we are scanning for muskies, we're just trying to locate some fish and if they are 2’ off the bottom or 4’ it doesn't really make much difference to us initially… we will be turning around and working the area when we find some. It's so awesome when we find an area and ID muskies located near the bottom and then see them rise up in the water column… game on eh!


Edited by Jerry Newman 7/5/2018 2:12 PM
Pointerpride102
Posted 7/5/2018 5:04 PM (#911577 - in reply to #911459)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?





Posts: 16632


Location: The desert
Fishysam - 7/3/2018 11:07 AM

S I doesn't understand the "depth" just the distance to the transducer, but yes the space between the transducer and down is the water column, but the water column continues straight out till it's off screen. If you have ever noticed a grain of rice return and then the shadow is touching it than means touching bottom or extremely close, now if the grain of rice is farther away that means it is suspended, and if you have the sweep 50' left and there is a fish suspended at 30' you won't get the shadow, here is a link to a full in depth with illustrations- http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=786451 you will need to make an account to see pictures I think


I need to spend a day with you checking out my transducer set up and get me dialed in on my set up better! You're in Fargo aren't you?
Fishysam
Posted 7/5/2018 5:06 PM (#911579 - in reply to #911577)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Posts: 1209


Jamestown but regularly am in MN, I don't think I know all that much though
Fishysam
Posted 7/5/2018 5:24 PM (#911582 - in reply to #911132)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Posts: 1209


As far as transducer goes you want it parallel to the surface (left to right as well as front to back) and a clear view of the side of the transducer from left and right (at 90*, NOT 80 or 100*) you will be good to go.

Other things can make echoes like a jack plate that doesn't have a bottom, a stepped transom that your not clearly around or the motor being in the way, all will leave signs something is not correct.

The people who have the best screen shots get there boat loaded to there "normal" load including passengers, and find out how many degrees the bow is up,( stack of pennies and a bullet level on the gunnel in one specific spot, then later use the jack to duplicate the "level spot" and then mount the front to back level to earth) same can be done left to right for the listing that may be happening. This is the same process for the dash unit at say 4 mph "normal seating configuration " or say slow speed casting make sure the person who may be with you isn't looking over your shoulder and he is where he fishes from.
Jerry Newman
Posted 7/6/2018 8:05 AM (#911642 - in reply to #911582)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Location: 31
Mounting the 3D transducer level is a piece of cake PP, can watch some YouTube videos too. However, I bet you'll have your hands full pulling the cables to the helm… certainly more of a challenge than a simple power cord connection for instance.

There's not a lot things to tweak like your typical 2D sonar either, almost a plug and go. Once installed you will sometimes get little white dots of interference from the kicker while trolling among other things, can’t expect to always have a perfect picture like the demos… that is the equivalent of always expecting the quarter pounder with cheese you see on TV.
RyanJoz
Posted 7/6/2018 8:25 AM (#911646 - in reply to #911642)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Posts: 1673


Location: Mt. Zion, IL
an angle finder works better than a bullet level IMO.
Pointerpride102
Posted 7/6/2018 11:09 AM (#911662 - in reply to #911642)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?





Posts: 16632


Location: The desert
Jerry Newman - 7/6/2018 8:05 AM

Mounting the 3D transducer level is a piece of cake PP, can watch some YouTube videos too. However, I bet you'll have your hands full pulling the cables to the helm… certainly more of a challenge than a simple power cord connection for instance.

There's not a lot things to tweak like your typical 2D sonar either, almost a plug and go. Once installed you will sometimes get little white dots of interference from the kicker while trolling among other things, can’t expect to always have a perfect picture like the demos… that is the equivalent of always expecting the quarter pounder with cheese you see on TV.


No 3D transducer, just the LSS-2. All cables are already pulled and everything installed. His was just a head unit replacement.
North of 8
Posted 7/9/2018 7:17 AM (#911859 - in reply to #911132)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




One thing that was helpful for me in learning the SI Lowrance I got this summer was buying a Dr. Sonar DVD on the unit. It really helped me understand what I was seeing. He does a really nice job of explaining in lay person's terms what the unit does, how it sees the water column, etc. Now when I see these "spots" I know that they are baitfish, etc. First time out after viewing it, I saw far more than when I used it the first time. Even saw what I am sure was a big musky. The funny thing with the musky was that it was in an area of current where a channel runs from a creek through the lake and out. I have fished that before thinking that it should hold fish but without success. Now I know it is worth fishing. First time I saw a crib, I was surprised at how intact it was, given that it has been in the lake well over 20 years. Plus I found a boulder field on the lake where I live that is much larger than what my old sonar had shown and the boulders much larger than I expected.
Jerry Newman
Posted 7/13/2018 11:48 AM (#912249 - in reply to #911859)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Location: 31
Was easily able to run the Lowrance side scan 50' off each side (100' total) in 6-8' of water the last few days without jacking with my scale perception much... so should be helpful moving forward.

Regarding the surface being visible, we didn't bother checking it with floating docks ect. away from the boat, alongside the boat things near the surface are not visible with the 3D transducer.

However, can clearly see the down rod rod tips going in and out of the water, starts picking up the rod tip at about the same level as the transducer (1-2'). Honestly not sure how helpful seeing the top 1' would be anyway?
4amuskie
Posted 7/13/2018 1:00 PM (#912255 - in reply to #912249)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Jerry
I know you say you can see the rod tips but I really think this is turbulence coming off the down rods or the line cutting through the sonar slice in the water. I have watched this for along time and to me it just doesn't match the rod depth. JMHO
Jerry Newman
Posted 7/14/2018 9:32 AM (#912297 - in reply to #912255)
Subject: Re: Lowrance side-imaging: Is the surface visible?




Location: 31
4amuskie - 7/13/2018 1:00 PM

Jerry
I know you say you can see the rod tips but I really think this is turbulence coming off the down rods or the line cutting through the sonar slice in the water. I have watched this for along time and to me it just doesn't match the rod depth. JMHO


Good clarification, 100% agree that it's mostly turbulence and not the rod tip itself. Line?... well that will be easy enough to figure out eh.

My unscientific test was just slowly lowering the rod into the water until it popped up on the screen, then just looked over the side to see how far the rod was in the water. Whether it was was from the turbulence, rod, or line it started between the 1-2' level.

Haha always one of the first questions asked by a new boat partner... "what's that?"

Edited by Jerry Newman 7/14/2018 2:16 PM
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