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Muskie Fishing -> General Discussion -> do lure color choices matter?
 
Message Subject: do lure color choices matter?
tcbetka
Posted 11/14/2017 12:01 PM (#884285 - in reply to #884270)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Location: Green Bay, WI
sworrall - 11/14/2017 8:39 AM

Snip...

Something to note: That video was done in what appears to be extremely clear water on what appears to be a very bright sunny day. Add particulate and have some of that available light bounce off the surface or be blocked by clouds, and the color will be entirely gone way faster. Morning the sun angle allows for much of the light to bounce off the surface, same with evening.


Great point. Also, wind-driven wave action will dramatically reduce the amount of light penetrating to depth, and thus the appearance of color(s) at depth.



Tom, it depends on HOW the orange was made. That one was made with way more yellow than red and may be infused in white plastic. Reverse that and it goes gray in the first 10 feet.


Good thought, and I hadn't thought about the effect(s) of different pigment types or hues on the persistence of color to depth. But one does indeed need to consider these things when considering the appearance of one's lures underwater.


TB
Ruddiger
Posted 11/15/2017 7:44 AM (#884420 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Posts: 176


Howdy,

All this being said, if you were starting from scratch and only wanted to have the colors you needed (not the ones you fell in love with because they look good) what would you go with? Lets say its on LOTW, anywhere but Whitefish Bay.

Take care,

Ruddiger
Larry Ramsell
Posted 11/15/2017 8:07 AM (#884426 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Posts: 1111


Location: Hayward, Wisconsin
..."Great point. Also, wind-driven wave action will dramatically reduce the amount of light penetrating to depth, and thus the appearance of color(s) at depth."

According to Mr. Worrall, "waves make the wind blow". If so, then your statement above Mr. Betka is incorrect re "wind-driven wave action".
musky513
Posted 11/15/2017 8:57 AM (#884428 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Posts: 392


So, wave driven wind action...?
jvlast15
Posted 11/15/2017 12:44 PM (#884436 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Posts: 214


I like Ruddigers question. If the experts on color could answer that I am sure a bunch of us would appreciate it!
horsehunter
Posted 11/15/2017 2:10 PM (#884442 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Location: Eastern Ontario
black with black stripes, jailbird, reverse jailbird, and black
tcbetka
Posted 11/15/2017 6:42 PM (#884455 - in reply to #884420)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Location: Green Bay, WI
Ruddiger - 11/15/2017 7:44 AM

Howdy,

All this being said, if you were starting from scratch and only wanted to have the colors you needed (not the ones you fell in love with because they look good) what would you go with? Lets say its on LOTW, anywhere but Whitefish Bay.

Take care,

Ruddiger


I think the consensus is to go with the color(s) that offers the most contrast between your lure against the background of the surrounding water column; not necessarily the prettiest lure you have in your tackle box. For example, if you're fishing shallower and the fish can see light at the depth your lure is running at, then go darker so that the lure is silhouetted against the lighter background from the sky. That sort of thing. If you want to add some color to the lure, then fine--but take note of which colors fade fastest at the depth you'll be fishing. Since reds and oranges disappear most quickly with depth, these are the colors you need to realize will be most affected by decreasing light levels, especially given the depths we commonly fish for muskies. These colors disappear by about 20-30 feet under the best conditions, but will likely fade much sooner in the "typical" conditions we normally fish in. In fact in water like we have over here in the southern part of Green Bay, I can't really see that any color will help until the fish gets within a few feet of the boat. The water is just that turbid most of the time.

One thing I've gleaned from the reading I've been doing these past few weeks is that in darker environments, predators seem to have a better ability to utilize the rod cells in their eyes than their prey does, thus giving them the advantage. I believe they have a larger rod density than their prey does, and they can also switch more quickly between the cone-dominated daytime vision, and the rod-dominated low-light vision. In fact muskies (and esocids in general, I think) have different types of both rods and cones--and also different arrangements (patterns) of these cells throughout the retina. It seems very complicated and I'm not quite sure how they figured out the behavioral implications, but the anatomy would be easy enough to define using both light and electron microscopy. So I suppose researchers can at least draw inferences about the fish's behavior based upon the anatomy. But my point is that (as Steve has correctly pointed out many times in the forum) contrast seems to be the king when he fish are relying mostly on rods to visually locate food in darker water.

Therefore I would look for a lure that you feel provides the action you prefer but also offers as much contrast as possible for the given depth, light conditions and water turbidity you're fishing. Then I'd roll with that for starters. Make observations, keep a log (notes) of your luck with those types of lures, and refine your offerings over time. If you approach it logically you can't help but run into success sooner or later.

TB

Edited by tcbetka 11/15/2017 6:49 PM
sworrall
Posted 11/15/2017 9:02 PM (#884464 - in reply to #884426)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Larry Ramsell - 11/15/2017 8:07 AM

..."Great point. Also, wind-driven wave action will dramatically reduce the amount of light penetrating to depth, and thus the appearance of color(s) at depth."

According to Mr. Worrall, "waves make the wind blow". If so, then your statement above Mr. Betka is incorrect re "wind-driven wave action".


That there is funny!
Beastly Backlash
Posted 11/18/2017 12:30 AM (#884603 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Posts: 145


I try to keep lure selection simple, so I focus on contrasting colors to the water clarity an environment conditions that effect lighting.

Basically, the idea I go with is to make it as easy as possible for the musky to locate the lure.
tcbetka
Posted 11/21/2017 7:51 AM (#884804 - in reply to #884603)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Location: Green Bay, WI
Beastly Backlash - 11/18/2017 12:30 AM

I try to keep lure selection simple, so I focus on contrasting colors to the water clarity an environment conditions that effect lighting.

Basically, the idea I go with is to make it as easy as possible for the musky to locate the lure.


Yup. Pretty hard to go wrong with that approach.
PAriverangler
Posted 11/21/2017 10:20 AM (#884813 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Posts: 9


For the most part I don't think lure color matters a whole lot. I think its more of a confidence thing. Personally I follow a few loose rules. Natural/dark colors in clear water and bright/light colors in darker water. I also like to throw white lures in low light conditions.
tcbetka
Posted 11/21/2017 11:17 AM (#884819 - in reply to #884813)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Location: Green Bay, WI
So contrast is key for you, is what you’re saying then?

sworrall
Posted 11/21/2017 11:40 AM (#884821 - in reply to #884813)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
PAriverangler - 11/21/2017 10:20 AM

For the most part I don't think lure color matters a whole lot. I think its more of a confidence thing. Personally I follow a few loose rules. Natural/dark colors in clear water and bright/light colors in darker water. I also like to throw white lures in low light conditions.


Sooooo, if your natural perch pattern lure has the green with a yellow base and the orange with a yellow base, is it a dark lure or a bright lure? All of them are no longer what we see above the water, and small things like how the colors on your lure are made can make a big difference in contrasting them against the sky conditions and can make them lose any real identity other than a nuetral/light/dark contrasting 'blob' moving through the water when particulate is present.

Many times the bright colors to your eyes are not so bright when one brings down the light.

I guess I need to shoot a video. I'll get after it once we return from deer camp and get our Clam Ice order picked up.
ToddM
Posted 11/21/2017 12:29 PM (#884824 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Posts: 16013


Location: oswego, il
I posted this on the last page so maybe it wasn't seen we know how a musky's eye works through our brain. Do we know how a musky's brain processes what it sees? Is it, why would it be the same as a human?
ToddM
Posted 12/4/2017 6:28 AM (#885804 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Posts: 16013


Location: oswego, il
Color can be critical. I can say that it WAS the reason we caught fish last weekend.
horsehunter
Posted 12/4/2017 7:10 AM (#885807 - in reply to #885804)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?




Location: Eastern Ontario
ToddM - 12/4/2017 7:28 AM

Color can be critical. I can say that it WAS the reason we caught fish last weekend.


Please explain ....not sure I can be convinced
ToddM
Posted 12/4/2017 8:36 AM (#885822 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Posts: 16013


Location: oswego, il
Easy, the lure caught the fish, i had another one in a different color, nothing, until i replaced it with a second in the same color did i catch fish on the second lure. Color was 100% the difference in our success. It is also not the first time i or others have seen it. I will also say this is not 100% of the time, days, times of year can be different.

Again i raise the question. We know what a musky sees based on how our brain processes it. Does a muskie's brain process what it sees different than us? My suspicion based on living in a different environment is yes.

Edited by ToddM 12/4/2017 9:47 AM
sworrall
Posted 12/4/2017 1:52 PM (#885882 - in reply to #885822)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Todd,
Not really, no. The color receptor cells in the fish's eye are pretty much what should be expected, and much more is understood about fish vision than you might think. They are capable of seeing the color....if it is available due to light penetration/availability and it's the proper timing to have the cone cells extended and rod cells retracted, and muskies are 'sight feeders' which means seeing the lure is very important.

I see there's still a poor understanding of what happens to color in low light, Gotta get some time to shoot that video.
ToddM
Posted 12/4/2017 2:37 PM (#885885 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Posts: 16013


Location: oswego, il
Steve, i complety understand what has been said about what happens to color under water, how a muskie's eye works but they are interpreted by how our brain, not the muskie's brain processes it. Can it be different?

Edited by ToddM 12/4/2017 2:38 PM
sworrall
Posted 12/4/2017 4:37 PM (#885896 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Define 'different'. We see colors differently than muskies do, due to our much clearer environment, for sure. The fish doesn't have the intellect to 'prefer' one color over another, but 1000 years of evolution has created situations in some waters where a particular pattern is more effective than others, and those that work well in one area of the country do not work well in others.

We see green food and can reason that we are seeing a particular color and shape and reason why it is less green at 5 PM than non, etc. The fish sees green or whatever color it is in low light and reacts....or doesn't. Muskies eat, rest, and reproduce, and everything past that is pretty much out. Tiny brains....
ToddM
Posted 12/4/2017 6:04 PM (#885904 - in reply to #885896)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Posts: 16013


Location: oswego, il
Steve what i am trying to ask is if a muskies brain processes the input differently than we do. I am not talking anything on an intelligent level, does a musky see colors the way we see colors? I suspect they do not? Can they see it better, worse or the same that we can?
Sidejack
Posted 12/4/2017 8:52 PM (#885922 - in reply to #885896)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Posts: 1016


Location: Anoka
sworrall - 12/4/2017 4:37 PM
Muskies eat, rest, and reproduce, and everything past that is pretty much out. Tiny brains....


You left out "avoidance behavior". Something else they also exhibit after painful/traumatic experiences.
~helpful smile~
sworrall
Posted 12/4/2017 9:14 PM (#885924 - in reply to #885904)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
ToddM - 12/4/2017 6:04 PM

Steve what i am trying to ask is if a muskies brain processes the input differently than we do. I am not talking anything on an intelligent level, does a musky see colors the way we see colors? I suspect they do not? Can they see it better, worse or the same that we can?


It's probably more similar than different. The 'color' cone cells exist in our eyes, and many other critters too, yet do not in many others, like deer. If the cells are similar, it follows what they see is similar. What they 'think' of it is, I am sure, a lot less.
sworrall
Posted 12/4/2017 9:16 PM (#885925 - in reply to #885922)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Sidejack - 12/4/2017 8:52 PM

sworrall - 12/4/2017 4:37 PM
Muskies eat, rest, and reproduce, and everything past that is pretty much out. Tiny brains....


You left out "avoidance behavior". Something else they also exhibit after painful/traumatic experiences.
~helpful smile~


No, didn't leave that out at all as I don't believe I was listing all indicated 'behaviors', obviously.

Don't take too much stock in that with muskies, or catching them twice would be...difficult, I submit. Far more difficult than it is. The whole premise of CPR is to leave that fish for others to catch...right?
Sidejack
Posted 12/4/2017 10:12 PM (#885928 - in reply to #885925)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Posts: 1016


Location: Anoka
So, don't take stock in all of the articles citing the importance of doing something different, modifying baits, fishing elsewhere, finding new ways to trigger, etc? Also, what about the research studies of radio tagged fish that leave the weed beds for open water when the tourney pressure begins?
sworrall
Posted 12/4/2017 10:18 PM (#885930 - in reply to #885928)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
I think you are way overstating (and at the same time understating) the issue(s) and are, perhaps, not considering the big picture on what you are calling avoidance behavior in muskies. Been a long time since we delved into muskie behavior in great detail, maybe that's not a bad place to start since it's drop dead Winter here starting tonight.

If the tagging studies you are referring to (haven't seen them) state the fish leave the weeds, then I assume we all need to stop fishing weeds when the pressure is on and chase those fish down.

In fact, as of late, seems to me the fish many times should bail out of the open water judging from the number of anglers hitting that pattern.
Sidejack
Posted 12/5/2017 1:08 AM (#885934 - in reply to #885930)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Posts: 1016


Location: Anoka
I didn't state anything, just added something i read in the past for consideration that i thought you overlooked and then i asked some questions that were based on things i also read in the past. Somebody else called it avoidance behavior and i shared it without considering any sized picture, big or small. I also don't presume to know how stupid or smart 15 to 25+ year old fish are or how good their eye sight/colour perception is in different conditions.
However, I imagine that underestimating them would limit my knowledge, success, and interest.
ToddM
Posted 12/5/2017 7:01 AM (#885936 - in reply to #876887)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Posts: 16013


Location: oswego, il
Steve, thanks for the explanation on brain power, that is a good explanation, what i was looking for.


Edited by ToddM 12/5/2017 7:03 AM
sworrall
Posted 12/5/2017 8:53 AM (#885951 - in reply to #885934)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Sidejack - 12/5/2017 1:08 AM

I didn't state anything, just added something i read in the past for consideration that i thought you overlooked and then i asked some questions that were based on things i also read in the past. Somebody else called it avoidance behavior and i shared it without considering any sized picture, big or small. I also don't presume to know how stupid or smart 15 to 25+ year old fish are or how good their eye sight/colour perception is in different conditions.
However, I imagine that underestimating them would limit my knowledge, success, and interest.


Got it. Let's roll with that and see where this goes. A popular term bordering a description of avoidance behavior is 'conditioning'. How do muskies become 'conditioned' to all facets of fishing pressure...or do they?
Sidejack
Posted 12/5/2017 9:16 AM (#885955 - in reply to #885951)
Subject: Re: do lure color choices matter?





Posts: 1016


Location: Anoka
According to this study, they do get conditioned to some aspects.
http://muskieamerica.com/Features/cfmsy1.htm
Scroll down to "Actual Evidence of "Conditioning"



Edited by Sidejack 12/5/2017 9:18 AM
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