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Posts: 32784
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 4:11 PM
Propaganda??? Wow......Maybe you should ask some people at resorts with outside tanks. Ive never seen one without filters in my life. Ethanol is not their friend.
Why not? Was what I posted not accurate?
What are the filters on those tanks for? What solvents are in non ethanol fuel now? What about the fact that ethanol doesn't 'attract' water and just plain can't phase separate unless WAY more water is introduced than should ever happen in any tank or the point of what happens with water introduced to non-blended fuel? Where would that water come from and how would ethanol be anything but a benefit? And the OTC additives many think cure alcohol problems are actually...alcohol?
I expected folks to resist this because of what they've understood as reality for years. It took a bunch of reading and listening to unbiased scientists to educate me and change my mind, too. I'm not in any way belittling anyone's opinion, just presenting the facts.
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| Well I certainly never said ethanol wasn't a good cleaner. It also mixes well with gasoline and water. There is a big difference in boats and cars. Cars usually consume lots of fuel regularly. Boats not so much. Fuel sits for long periods in most boats. Fuel tanks can and will collect moisture through condensation. Cold air, warm water. Warm air, coldwater. They are also used in moist environments so susceptible to even more condensation.
This is why they have water separating filter. Almost all boats and marine engines have this. Even my 15hp does. So some one else besides me recognizes the potential for water in fuels in a marine environment unless this is propaganda too. So let's just say there is a slight chance this could happen to some one. Ethanol can hold water well but when it gets saturated it separates. Not just the water but both the ethanol and the water at the same time. This renders the water ethanol mix unusable. It also leaves the gasoline unusable since the ethanol is used to give it octane and has now been removed. You now have a complete tank of useless fuel.
When gasoline is contaminated with water the water separates. The water of course is useless. The gasoline is still good. The water is collected in the filter where it can be removed. The gas is still good. Not so with E10.
You can test this on your own if you want. Its called science and it works very well. You will need a test tube, e10 fuel and water. Makes sure you have something to give accurate measurements. You will find out how much water you can add before it separates. It will be .5% of the volume at 60 degrees depending on the ethanol content. Less the colder it gets. It could be even less if the fuel already has water in it. Its alot of fun and a good way to determine how much ethanol is in the fuel you are buying. Be careful though because its flammable.
I definitely think you should try the experiment. It's great science.
Have fun. |
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Posts: 32784
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 6:15 PM
Well I certainly never said ethanol wasn't a good cleaner. It also mixes well with gasoline and water. There is a big difference in boats and cars. Cars usually consume lots of fuel regularly. Boats not so much. Fuel sits for long periods in most boats. Fuel tanks can and will collect moisture through condensation. Cold air, warm water. Warm air, coldwater. They are also used in moist environments so susceptible to even more condensation.
This is why they have water separating filter. Almost all boats and marine engines have this. Even my 15hp does. So some one else besides me recognizes the potential for water in fuels in a marine environment unless this is propaganda too. So let's just say there is a slight chance this could happen to some one. Ethanol can hold water well but when it gets saturated it separates. Not just the water but both the ethanol and the water at the same time. This renders the water ethanol mix unusable. It also leaves the gasoline unusable since the ethanol is used to give it octane and has now been removed. You now have a complete tank of useless fuel.
When gasoline is contaminated with water the water separates. The water of course is useless. The gasoline is still good. The water is collected in the filter where it can be removed. The gas is still good. Not so with E10.
You can test this on your own if you want. Its called science and it works very well. You will need a test tube, e10 fuel and water. Makes sure you have something to give accurate measurements. You will find out how much water you can add before it separates. It will be .5% of the volume at 60 degrees depending on the ethanol content. Less the colder it gets. It could be even less if the fuel already has water in it. Its alot of fun and a good way to determine how much ethanol is in the fuel you are buying. Be careful though because its flammable.
I definitely think you should try the experiment. It's great science.
Have fun.
Once again, the amount of water you are talking about is not even slightly likely without mechanical failure in your fuel system in which case your fuel/water filter if on board will tell you there is an issue that needs addressing. How much water have you been removing from your filter on a regular basis? If a lot, either your fuel source or your ride has issues. I'm betting it's not an issue, just like my boat, and I run e10 exclusively unless I am forced to run something else.
The air mass in the fuel system installed in an average boat won't contain the water vapor needed to create that much condensation, and would require a near empty fuel system to create any amount at all. The water/fuel filter on an outboard is there in case of an anomaly, and if you have water in the filter regularly, your fuel system is in need of attention or you are buying really...really old gas or gas from a source with water entering into the tank that should not be. If the fuel is that old to have standing water in it, it would not run well anyway.
Fuel as old as you suggest mine would be in my ride, if non-oxygenated, had better be stabilized or it also will not be high enough octane. The solvents and additives I discussed are there to increase octane and the resulting ethanol free blend is not stable at all. No fuel these days is. That's why engine manufacturers want you to use their propitiatory brand of gasoline additive regularly.
In the case of your experiment, use a fuel cell and the required fuel fill and EPA approved fill/vent system from an 18' boat as an 'average' and expose it to normal temperature swings while on the water with e 10 in the tank at the level one might expect would be the average. Then it would be relevant. It's been done already, by the way, which is why the EPA requires the fill/vent system that's standard equipment on boats. A working knowledge how that system works would help for sure.
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| Guess I'm calling Mercury for wasting money on these fuel filters. Thieves.
Always entertaining Steve. Always  |
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Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 6:48 PM
Guess I'm calling Mercury for wasting money on these fuel filters. Thieves.
Always entertaining Steve. Always :)
That is only if you choose to throw it out... I pull mine each year, empty the fuel from it out the bottom and it's just fuel....I then take the filter off and dump everything out let it sit for a couple of hours... I have had absolutely no water...EVER in mine running E10 fuel. I then just reinstall the filter.... No cost to me...
As stated before...the ONLY way enough water would EVER get into your fuel system is if it is somehow EXTERNALLY INTRODUCED. Condensation would never be enough, and due to the system Steve Worrall is talking about, it would rarely ever happen... A 20 gallon tank would need the amount of a 12 ounce Pepsi to get close to being at a point it would phase separate due to the alcohol bonding with the water intrusion. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that you would get that much condensation inside of a tank, surrounded by foam flotation, under 3/4" of plywood. AND...with the ambient air being WARMER than the air in your fuel tank in almost every situation, we will let physics do it's work. WARM AIR RISES MY FRIEND... It cannot travel DOWN a vent tube to an fuel tank no matter how humid it is outside...
You get water into a tank of Non oxy...its going right into your motor without that fuel water separator. Now stop and think about WHY THAT FILTER HAS BEEN INSTALLED..... It's there because if people decided NOT to use E10, they are doing what they can to PROTECT the engine. Again...not rocket science here....
Steve |
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| I had no idea you were really that serious about this. What's the deal. |
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Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Both Steve and I are serious about this... People are so misinformed... then they continue to put this misinformation out there as fact..The deal is people need to quit putting out misinformation and educate themselves about what is really going on with their fuel.
It's the reason this thread has made it to 3 pages, and now a 66th post because people keep trying to deny and punch holes in the benefits of E10....and they are walking themselves in circles.
The argument against ethanol is like proving 1 = 2 to a mathematics instructor....and yes...I've done this to my students to see if they can find the misdirection in the proof
Steve
Edited by VMS 3/31/2019 8:35 PM
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| And where does your expertise and knowledge come from may I ask |
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Posts: 32784
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 6:48 PM
Guess I'm calling Mercury for wasting money on these fuel filters. Thieves.
Always entertaining Steve. Always :)
Who said they are a 'waste'? Also, just in case our discussion confuses anyone, a 'fuel filter' is not the same as a water/fuel separating fuel filter. See attached. Also, what's 'interesting' in this is any attempt to make it a personal argument. I'm simply providing facts when prompted by a claim or statement that calls for same.
You made a statement that called for editorial debate, which was provided. If you disagree with what was said, provide information that proves your point, maybe. That's what debate is all about, right? Nothing personal here, I can disagree with your statement without having a single issue with you personally. Better stated, I'm disagreeing with a statement OutdoorsFIRST published, not with you personally. It's my job, actually.
How did I learn about all this? Interviews, phone calls, and reading. A lot of all. Why? because of a political position an organization that I feel should not be politicking took on the 15% ethanol issue and OutdoorsFIRST was expected to publish that position as fact. When I was in the marine industry the companies I worked for paid them a lot of money to get organizational certification. I expected truth in practice from them and was frankly peeved after looking into the matter, so I finished educating myself on the subject and published both sides of the debate.
From Mercury Marine's website (full disclosure, OFM does work with Mercury Marine from time to time):
'Fuel Care Tips
Even more than the gas in your car, the gas in your boat needs special care to keep your engine running at peak performance. Gasoline begins to go bad within about two weeks. When left untreated, some of the fuel components begin to oxidize and form a gum-like substance. The substance settles in fuel lines and tanks, carburetors and injectors. When you try to burn this fuel, deposits can form in the combustion chamber. Over time, these deposits build up and reduce your engine’s performance.'
Ethanol doesn't break down like many of the other additives in today's gasoline. A quart of moonshine gets better with age...not worse.
'Barrel aging is what helps give whiskey its color, but before whiskey touches a barrel it's a clear spirit.” The major difference between white whiskey and moonshine is the fact that the term moonshine is a reference to a product for which taxes have not been paid.' Aged whiskey can sit in a barrel for a few years.
That said, do not run the e15 in your outboard. I believe (and have been told) testing will be ongoing to determine scope of use, much like it was with e10, and until that's been done it will be illegal to use in a small engine. We'll see where that goes, tons of politicking there too.
One can wager successfully that 15% and even higher concentrations of renewable fuels will become the standard in the future whether big oil likes it or not today, and everyone in the industry knows that. Auto racing engine mod specialists love the stuff. Supercharged engines produce more power and make for a faster car tuned for burning the e85 blend.
Especially telling is that quote from the Merc website. TWO WEEKS. Stabilize your fuel in your boat, every tank, unless you burn it every couple weeks and regardless what you decide to burn. If you don't and your engine breaks down as a result, my effort here is to point out that ethanol is not and has never been the problem and one is not 'OK' to just put in the ethanol free fuel and call it good.
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Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 9:10 PM
And where does your expertise and knowledge come from may I ask
I'm a mathematics instructor as my career which also comes with it, an emphasis in calculus based physics, chemistry, and geometry within my degree.
I do not claim to be an expert...but I am a lifelong learner and continue to learn more and more about things that interest me...fuel being one of them. So...where I've gained my knowledge is through research within the scientific community. I then would take that information with what people would take as "truth" (in most cases what someone told them because they experienced, this or that...) And consider that information against proven and peer reviewed scientific studies.
It's amazing how many people deny with ethanol blended fuels the pure chemistry and physics behind it.
Steve
Edited by VMS 4/1/2019 7:56 AM
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| Funny you mention E85. Great fuel and smells really good too. Awesome power from it too but the fuel mileage SUCKS and makes it cost prohibitive unless priced 30% less. i burn it when its priced as stated because it makes my vehicle fun to drive, but that doesnt happen too often. Next time you are at the pumps, check out the nozzles on the hoses for a great comparison. Reg gas always has some darker tint on them. The E85 is clean except for some corrosive spots.
I dont have anything petro companies. I do wonder about the power of the subsidized corn industry though.
Oh well, back to the search for real gas on the lake.......... |
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Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | 4amuskie,
Where would you rather money go...to the hard working farmers of this country or the multi-billion dollar oil companies who already have us "over a barrel" so to speak... And..to be clear...it was not E85 that Steve Worrall mentioned if I'm reading things correctly...it was E15.
Fuel mileage will always be less with any ethanol blend because it does not have the same BTU output as pure gasoline...that is not being argued here... E10 is not going to be as efficient as pure fuel, but the difference is nowhere near that of running E85 in your flex fuel vehicle.
I had a flex fuel vehicle a while back (ford ranger) that could take E85. Ran it a few times but correct...it was not cost efficient for me as a consumer. It definitely ran clean which I feel is a good thing, but as a consumer, I like my money to go as far as it can....so for me, E10 was my choice. I have not run E15 at this point because it is not readily available....but...if my vehicle is ok to run it, I'd do so...with the understanding it will not have as good of mileage, but I'm supporting clean air and a cleaner burning engine.
As both Steve Worrall and I have stated...run whatever fuel you feel the most comfortable running. Just be sure to stabilize the fuel if your rig is going to sit for any period of time. it is THAT maintenance which saves your engine and fuel system from trouble.
Steve
Edited by VMS 4/1/2019 8:10 AM
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| Thanks VMS!!! |
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Posts: 32784
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 4/1/2019 7:48 AM
Funny you mention E85. Great fuel and smells really good too. Awesome power from it too but the fuel mileage SUCKS and makes it cost prohibitive unless priced 30% less. i burn it when its priced as stated because it makes my vehicle fun to drive, but that doesnt happen too often. Next time you are at the pumps, check out the nozzles on the hoses for a great comparison. Reg gas always has some darker tint on them. The E85 is clean except for some corrosive spots.
I dont have anything petro companies. I do wonder about the power of the subsidized corn industry though.
Oh well, back to the search for real gas on the lake..........
I have a little insight with the Ethanol 'lobby'. It's not at all what one might think judging the activity from the anti-ethanol side of the fence.
We had a project last year shooting some videos with Missouri Corn, Crappie Masters, and the Renewable Fuels Association. That's what got me curious, as what we filmed went directly against the grain of what I was hearing and reading, so I started looking into it. Then came the e15 politics, and the ripple through the marine industry, and that really got me going. I specifically asked them what they were looking for, what the agenda was, etc. The very clear answer was just this:
"We want to get the truth out to the anglers and boaters that e10 is safe to burn in outboard motors"
That's it.
The e85 deal I found interesting and goes along with what you said. A cool video, just a bit rough at times, from Down Under:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltWcgiCm4NY
Please forgive the opening...
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Where would you rather money go...to the hard working farmers of this country or the multi-billion dollar oil companies who already have us "over a barrel" so to speak...
This comment implies (wrongly) that oil industry jobs aren't also filled by hard-working Americans. Roughnecks are well paid in the six-figure class, but work #*^@ hard to earn it. And the majority of farm production is from farms with more than $1M in sales annually, with the move to large and very large farms accelerating quickly. The better businesses out-compete the less adept; that's the way of things, it's only nostalgia that holds up 30-cow-80-acre farms as some sort of ideal.
Let's say I put about 300 gallons through my boat each year. 91 octane "pure" gas costs less than $0.50/gallon more than e10 gas. This circular discussion (with some full-on SHOUTED posts) is simply not worth $150 per year.
Edited by undersized 4/1/2019 7:43 PM
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Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | undersized - 4/1/2019 7:42 PM
Where would you rather money go...to the hard working farmers of this country or the multi-billion dollar oil companies who already have us "over a barrel" so to speak...
This comment implies (wrongly ) that oil industry jobs aren't also filled by hard-working Americans. Roughnecks are well paid in the six-figure class, but work #*^@ hard to earn it. And the majority of farm production is from farms with more than $1M in sales annually, with the move to large and very large farms accelerating quickly. The better businesses out-compete the less adept; that's the way of things, it's only nostalgia that holds up 30-cow-80-acre farms as some sort of ideal.
Let's say I put about 300 gallons through my boat each year. 91 octane "pure" gas costs less than $0.50/gallon more than e10 gas. This circular discussion (with some full-on SHOUTED posts ) is simply not worth $150 per year.
Don't get me wrong...I completely understand there are hard working people around the world in the oil industry...those would be the ones who don't see the anything more than their paycheck. Price of oil goes up, their paycheck doesn't.... Demand pushes prices up even though there is enough to go around... it goes in the pockets at the top... That is not rocket science either...
I don't know about you...but I'd rather put that $150 toward something other than burning out my engine with no real benefit...
Edited by VMS 4/1/2019 9:36 PM
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Posts: 32784
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | undersized - 4/1/2019 7:42 PM
Where would you rather money go...to the hard working farmers of this country or the multi-billion dollar oil companies who already have us "over a barrel" so to speak...
This comment implies (wrongly ) that oil industry jobs aren't also filled by hard-working Americans. Roughnecks are well paid in the six-figure class, but work #*^@ hard to earn it. And the majority of farm production is from farms with more than $1M in sales annually, with the move to large and very large farms accelerating quickly. The better businesses out-compete the less adept; that's the way of things, it's only nostalgia that holds up 30-cow-80-acre farms as some sort of ideal.
Let's say I put about 300 gallons through my boat each year. 91 octane "pure" gas costs less than $0.50/gallon more than e10 gas. This circular discussion (with some full-on SHOUTED posts ) is simply not worth $150 per year.
I don't see a single 'shouted' post in this thread. A couple places where emphasis was used...
The discussion is not circular at all, the debate has at the very least informed a bunch of folks who have said nothing here.
My intent is not to 'save anyone money' by purchasing any specific grade of fuel, although that could be a benefit. It's to correct a serious misconception that has spawned an industry based solely on misinformation, improper politicking, and worse, and to discuss why that's happening and where the misconception comes from, while getting the facts out there for debate. So far so good. This thread won't stop any of the misinformation mill, and I'm quite aware of that. I hope it DOES save a few folks serious issues with their ride and clarifies how those issues really came to be.
The end goal is to educate folks about how really unstable their fuel is no matter what they buy, what to do about it, and the why of it. |
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Location: 31 | sworrall - 4/2/2019 2:48 PM
"The end goal is to educate folks about how really unstable their fuel is no matter what they buy, what to do about it, and the why of it.
Perfect! I've been following the gas threads right along and as previously stated I’ll have no problem using the E10 premium in the future (my outboards minimum is 89). For anyone who think people can't be swayed; I was arguing against anything other than E0 before and have done a 180 thanks to the research provided here (as well as a lot of my own prompted by this thread).
Once I have collected my thoughts I will post how I plan to switch from E O to E 10 to help gather further input. Here's some information I found somewhere that I found pertinent, and also very interesting.
"Mercury Marine, which recently hosted a Webinar on ethanol myths, noted that ethanol does not "grab water molecules out of the air." It is hydrophilic, which means ethanol holds water. With regular gasoline (E0) as well at E10, the primary cause of water collecting in tanks is condensation on tank walls. But unlike E0, which can absorb almost no moisture, E10 can hold up to half of one percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. The "solubilized" water will bypass the water separator and burn harmlessly through the engine. Only if phase separation were to occur would a water separator do its job, but by then the fuel itself would be the problem. The phase-separated water/ethanol mixture would settle on the bottom of the tank near the fuel pick-up and would quickly stall out or even damage your engine. And because ethanol is used to boost octane, the remaining (low-octane) gasoline at the top of the tank would also have the potential to damage your engine.
Note, however, that a fuel filter (10-micron) is essential to keep gunk from reaching your engine. Ethanol is a solvent that dissolves resins, rust, and dirt that have accumulated on older tank walls. Especially when you first make the transition to E10, it's important to carry spare filters and a galvanized bucket to store used filters prior to disposal. Even in new engines and tanks, E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance that will also clog filters. Richard Kolb, the manager of Emissions and Regulations for Volvo Penta, believes the goo is caused by water mixing with one or more of the 108 approved compounds that can be used in gasoline. These compounds vary among suppliers, so one solution is to change to a different brand of gasoline. Another is to use carburetor cleaner, which he says has sometimes remedied the problem." |
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Location: 31 | I cut off the bottom of this post from above when transferred…...
Obviously the beginning of this quote was just a rehash of what has been stated several times (but also probably can't be restated enough). What I found most interesting was the recommendation to switch to a different brand of gasoline if there was a problem with "goo" from the E 10.
You would think that they would have also recommended a water separating filter too (the vented fuel cell/condensation issue is why boats have a water separating filters and not automobiles).
AND why “it might” be a larger problem than we are giving it credit for here.
For me it's going to be more important than ever to maintain a full tank of gas with the E 10 whenever my boat is not in use. Also, condensation issues would be my best guess why Yamaha and Suzuki still recommend using the E0... but that's just a guess.
Edited by Jerry Newman 4/3/2019 12:22 PM
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Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | That’s the funny part.. with non oxygenated fuel that water separator is even more important... it’s kind of backwards thinking.
That’s the beauty of E10... that little bit of condensation that just might occur in the rarest of situations would be a non issue... absorbed and burned... done |
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Posts: 32784
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Jerry Newman - 4/3/2019 12:19 PM
I cut off the bottom of this post from above when transferred…...
Obviously the beginning of this quote was just a rehash of what has been stated several times (but also probably can't be restated enough). What I found most interesting was the recommendation to switch to a different brand of gasoline if there was a problem with "goo" from the E 10.
You would think that they would have also recommended a water separating filter too (the vented fuel cell/condensation issue is why boats have a water separating filters and not automobiles).
AND why “it might” be a larger problem than we are giving it credit for here.
For me it's going to be more important than ever to maintain a full tank of gas with the E 10 whenever my boat is not in use. Also, condensation issues would be my best guess why Yamaha and Suzuki still recommend using the E0... but that's just a guess.
One company was very vociferous on the e15 issue, flat insisting that people are too stupid to NOT use that fuel in an outboard. They have also assisted in spreading the mis-truths over the last few years about e10. I'm not saying it was an intentional campaign to mislead the public, but it sure was voiced as if it was.
https://www.outdoorsfirst.com/article/ethanol-facts-vs-fiction/
That 'gunk' is apparently the result of a couple other additives that might one or all of these: benzene, xylene, and toluene. This stuff usually shows up as a result of a lower concentration of detergent additives in that brand's fuel. It also causes the same problem in non-oxygenated fuels, I have read that one several times in the last year. That's partially why Merc recommends using their brand of fuel stabilizer/cleaner in every tank. |
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