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| It has been brought up before about a manufacturer only musly show.Just wondering what people thinks about one.No retailers allowed !Todd from Leo lures brought this idea to me appx 10 years ago and it sounds like a good idea. Chime in and let us know.thank you
Edited by kyle smoker tackle 3/2/2014 12:58 AM
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Posts: 218
| This is just my opinion so don't take it as me representing anyone but myself but here goes. The musky "industry" is so ass backwards compared to just about any other business model. Manufacturers want to sell at shows so they can put some fast cash in their pocket for a few days a year. I get that. Good old American greed. The retailer is purchasing product and stocking it, warehousing, advertising, paying sales staff, in some cases traveling to shows, etc, all year long to sell the manufacturers product. Now when the retailer places an order so he can sell your product the "manufacturer" doesn't have product to ship because he is either sold out and it will take him weeks to build more product or he doesn't want to supply the product until he gets first whack at selling to the public. It really is a bunch of BS. The retailers share some blame in this because they let it happen in the first place. I've talked to execs in other industries and they have universally told me that if any of their suppliers were found selling to the end user at a trade show, that would be the end of the relationship. The whole concept of "shows" in the musky industry is not really a trade show anymore. It's really more like a craft fair. Those who want the retailers out of the shows are getting their way as retailers realize it's futile to expend the time, energy, and money to put together an effective display at the show and make any money at it with your suppliers selling against them up and down the aisles. |
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Posts: 51
| What Pete said x two. I'm not a member of the musky industry. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | In my opinion if a manufacturer wants to sell direct to the public he should not expect any support from retailers. If retailers buy warehouse and display the product of manufactures that compete directly with them they deserve what they get. I have been attending sportsman shows for over 50 years off and on ( more off lately) at one time all the larger manufactures had booths for information and display only. If you wanted to buy something they directed you to a retailer in the show who was likely carrying stock. Shows for the most part have degenerated to the point where it's people hawking T shirts, sneakers, and vegetable choppers.
I guess if the small manufacturer can't get his product into the retailers he is left with no choice but to sell direct but neither party should expect it to work both ways.
Edited by horsehunter 3/2/2014 6:43 AM
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I guess one of the problems in the muskie tackle industry is there are 2 types of manufactures the large or semi large corporation and the guy who has a 9 to 5 and turns out a few baits in his basement. If I'm building a few hundred baits a year and people have been willing to pay $100 a piece and I am selling all I can produce life's good. Then I am contacted by a retailer that wants to carry my bait and sell it for $100 . To do this I have to sell it ( I'm guessing) for $60 and now I'm not making any money out of what was a lucrative hobby. |
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Posts: 396
Location: Northern Illinois | Some of the other trade shows might be different where the general public doesn't really have access to the manufacturers. I think the way the musky shows are set up now, with both retailers and manufacturers, works for this small industry (at least from my “general public” point of view). I bought 6 lures at the Milwaukee show this year - 4 were from manufacturers and 2 were from retailers.
If the retailers are selling your product at the show you are getting money indirectly. I think some of the larger manufacturers, Like ERC, weren't really selling directly at the shows, they were just there to advertise and explain their products and let the retailers sell them.
I think one of the keys is "show only" lures or colors from the manufacturers. A couple of years ago, I was buying some lures from Big Game Tackle and asked Todd about a standard color. His response was Thorne Bros or R&H have them and he just sells the show colors so there is no overlap. Some of the custom colors, like ones made with foil, may be more time consuming for the manufacturer to make. However, this is one of the reasons people go to the shows - to get something they can't get through their normal channels or something that is special.
In this modern day of internet and fast shipping, if there really isn't anything different from the manufacturer, then the buyer can just get it from the retailer online or the next time he goes to their store. I think some of the manufacturers at the show understand this and work to complement the retailers, get their own name and craftsmanship out there, make some additional money, and show the public what they've got.
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Location: Waukesha, WI, USA | A little story
I used to visit a very well known musky lure builder at his shop/store. Went there more to talk bs than buy. One day I finally asked him the big question. "Why do your lures cost more here in your own store? If I travel 2 miles down the road to a national sports store, I can buy the same lure for $2 less. His answer was simple. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Dont compete with the guy who puts food on your table. I bought a new lure from him. Well worth the education. |
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Posts: 532
| I am a manufacturer, with that said I am also very small so my perspective is as such. I had a booth at Chicago, most everyone who I talked to said they never heard of me. Chicago is a good distance from my home so I didn't expect to be known here as I am here at home. If it takes 500 miles away from home to have no body know my name, I had to work to sell a 1 bait to a person who doesn't know me. That being said, would a retailer buy 50, 100, 200 baits from a person they never heard of?
I have a 40hour a week job, I make baits to supplement my income. I have several friends who also make baits, some do it full time some do it on the side. After Chicago I did have several retailers talk about carrying my product. Some took it further than others, the ones that went further, I asked about them to my friends who been making baits longer than myself. Some of retailers in question my friends have said "guy to work with" or "late payer" or "I got screwed out of 200 baits, don't deal with" Just because they own a retail shop doesn't mean they practice good ethics or business, how many hits can a basement guy take from a retailer that buys X number of baits gets them shipped in only to screw the maker on the deal with a no pay?. The same can be said about bait makers not paying all their taxes, but that's another story.
So for me going to the shows is my way of getting most of my compensation for my work that goes into baits. Making baits isn't a free endeavor, going to shows isn't free, the booth isn't free, the lodging isn't free, the travel isn't free. I have been trying to get a few of the big retailers to carry my product, all I have got is "No" or no response at all after I send them baits for free to try (which by the way is the most common response once they agree to give the baits a shot).
I would love to have a retailer carry my baits to all the shows (I belive I have found one) so I do not have to spend the thousands of dollars and days on the road away from my family. But it isn't easy to get that. So primarly I am doing that. If my guy who I found will continue to do that I will not go and be at those shows he will be at. Also I am obligated not to under sell him, which I do not or ever will do.
So if you have read this far in my post I hope you can see that it isn't all "good old American greed" to want to promote, sell and profit from your work. Everyone expects to get a paycheck at the end of the work week at your 40hour, the shows for small bait makers is like getting your paycheck, only it comes a couple times a year and has to last all year long. I cant understand how that is "Greed" from my point of view Peter.
as for a maker show only, It would be fun, not sure how it would work out in terms of location. But I would be interested. |
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Posts: 455
| Not much to add other than the handmade baits are part of what makes this sport great. If you fish Bass you are relegated to factory made for the most part. How many muskie baits that went from hand made to factory made got better? There is a reason people want originals. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Retail makes the Sport work. |
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Posts: 574
| I went to Chicago, and Madison shows this year..
Chicago I went mainly to replace a bump board.. (Thorne Bros)
Madison I needed a quick release for my Terrova..Thornes again
Ended up buying 4 underdawgs, 4 DCGs a Twistd sistr and some random swimbait in Chicago, and then 2 pounders in Madison.. I wouldn't have gone to either of these shows or bought any of the other stuff if a "retailer" Hadn't been there with what I actually needed |
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Posts: 241
| I buy direct from the Manufacturer and Retailers.
Many times retailers only have a fraction of the colors available.
I like Mepp's model. You can buy from either, but you will pay more - much more - if you buy from them direct. You also didn't see Mepp's at any of the shows and they are located right here in Wisconsin. I bought a #5 from the Musky Shop at the Milwaukee show.
This is what I do. I call or visit an independent first - Smokey's or the Musky Shop. I ask if they can get such and such in this size or color, length, etc. If they can - we got a deal. If not, I go direct. I try to support "the little guy". The last place I will go is to Cabela's, Gander Mountain, or Bass Pro. They have enough sales from other sources. They don't get my "Muskie Money".
Backdraft
Edited by backdraft 3/2/2014 10:41 AM
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| i build. theres no easy button in the industry.
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Location: North St. Paul, MN | I can speak on behalf of Andy and FatAZMusky products. Used the raptors last fall and hammered a bunch of fish on them. I was very excited to try it as it was something I did not have in my tackle box. It's unfortunate bigger retailers are not picking up the raptor or Andy's other products. It's definitely a niche I don't think is out there in the musky world.
Good luck Andy...I hope you're able to continue to make quality musky lures! |
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| From what I've seen at the shows ,it seems like the retailers carry mostly the same stuff other retailers carry ie. Cowgirls bulldawgs phantoms jakes ect.This was the 12th year we done shows.In the beginning we only carried customs and sent people to retailers for stock colors.Once retailers stopped bringing them to shows we decided if they wont bring them we would.We cant understand why they dont because they can always get there orders
filled promptly when they order them.It's obvious they sell because I've done this fulltime for
years.And have never undercut any retailers. I understand you have to take care of them but one of two shows a year isn't going to break them. |
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Posts: 1220
| There is an "evolution" aspect as well. A guy who starts small has to depend on shows to sell direct. Nobody is going to fault him for this. But...once he has began a relationship with retailers, he has to respect them. I see it as a marriage. You can date who you want before you stand at the alter. If you do it after the wedding, you deserve to be tossed out. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Peter Stoltman - 3/2/2014 5:57 AM
This is just my opinion so don't take it as me representing anyone but myself but here goes. The musky "industry" is so ass backwards compared to just about any other business model. Manufacturers want to sell at shows so they can put some fast cash in their pocket for a few days a year. I get that. Good old American greed. The retailer is purchasing product and stocking it, warehousing, advertising, paying sales staff, in some cases traveling to shows, etc, all year long to sell the manufacturers product. Now when the retailer places an order so he can sell your product the "manufacturer" doesn't have product to ship because he is either sold out and it will take him weeks to build more product or he doesn't want to supply the product until he gets first whack at selling to the public. It really is a bunch of BS. The retailers share some blame in this because they let it happen in the first place. I've talked to execs in other industries and they have universally told me that if any of their suppliers were found selling to the end user at a trade show, that would be the end of the relationship. The whole concept of "shows" in the musky industry is not really a trade show anymore. It's really more like a craft fair. Those who want the retailers out of the shows are getting their way as retailers realize it's futile to expend the time, energy, and money to put together an effective display at the show and make any money at it with your suppliers selling against them up and down the aisles.
Agree.... The musky world is Super Small, and a manf. show only would just be a Fail
Can't you small lure builders sell your baits online ? wouldn't that be more successful ?
I can see a Shark Tank Episode with a muskie lure builder getting scrutinized ......That would be a good one. |
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| I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers just wanted to see what the general population thought about it. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Actually, this is a great conversation. |
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| Peter Stoltman - 3/2/2014 5:57 AM
This is just my opinion so don't take it as me representing anyone but myself but here goes. The musky "industry" is so ass backwards compared to just about any other business model. Manufacturers want to sell at shows so they can put some fast cash in their pocket for a few days a year. I get that. Good old American greed. The retailer is purchasing product and stocking it, warehousing, advertising, paying sales staff, in some cases traveling to shows, etc, all year long to sell the manufacturers product. Now when the retailer places an order so he can sell your product the "manufacturer" doesn't have product to ship because he is either sold out and it will take him weeks to build more product or he doesn't want to supply the product until he gets first whack at selling to the public. It really is a bunch of BS. The retailers share some blame in this because they let it happen in the first place. I've talked to execs in other industries and they have universally told me that if any of their suppliers were found selling to the end user at a trade show, that would be the end of the relationship. The whole concept of "shows" in the musky industry is not really a trade show anymore. It's really more like a craft fair. Those who want the retailers out of the shows are getting their way as retailers realize it's futile to expend the time, energy, and money to put together an effective display at the show and make any money at it with your suppliers selling against them up and down the aisles.
I hear you loud and clear. I am a business owner, not in the fishing industry, most of the time when you hear this noise it is that they are looking for a deal and skip the retailer and save themselves some major cash. Most people don't have a clue what it costs to run a business. I could give you a long list of people and businesses that need to be paid every month and the business owner here is the last one on the list. God help you if you have a good year because your least favorite uncle will be there for more than his fair share. |
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| kyle smoker tackle - 3/2/2014 2:23 PM
I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers just wanted to see what the general population thought about it.
Ruffled feathers! You just pulled this bird through a knot hole backwards! |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | There is a Manufacturing Fishing show, it is called ICAST, it is once a year and it is for Manufacturers to show case products and for retailers to come to the show to place orders for the year. It is not open to the public.
As far as Manufacturers selling at Musky shows to the public, I see nothing wrong with that, Thank God they do, I like getting deals on one off colors and over stocks and end of the run baits, I don't work at a bait store so I like to buy my baits when there is a deal or a one of a kind bait I want.
Most Manufacturers have stores at their plants open to the public like ST CROIX, and PLANO and sell to the public direct at a BIG DISCOUNT some products are damage and end of the run lines, and over stocks. I don't see Bass Pro or Cabela's having a fit over that.
I think the Musky shows would be VERY BORING if Manufacturers would not sell at the shows.
Small manufacturers have to sell at shows to keep going and pay the bills. It's hard to anticipate what retailers will order and how many, so I can understand they will not always have that product in stock. They know how many shows are in the year so they will make baits for the shows to sell while waiting for retailers to place orders for baits. Alot of Retailers place orders at the last minute because most have a cash flow problem so they don't order product monthly so a small Manufacturers can keep up, they wait till spring and place a large order that a small Manufacturer can not fill at the last minute.
If a retailer has a problem with someone pick up the phone and call them and work it out, that's what I would do. |
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Location: MN | Not to mention most retailers will cherry pick most manufacturers products and carry only the top few best sellers. It definitely is a different arrangement in the musky world, but things are changing elsewhere as well. Where many manufacturers in other industries used to feel the need to honor the retailer and not sell to the public at all, many now do, either online or through plant "stores". |
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Posts: 218
| No problem with small guys selling at the shows, for that matter even the bigger guys but then don't complain when a retailer doesn't order in the numbers you think he should. You already sold to his customer. Likewise if the retailer does exhibit at a show and NOT bring your stuff or bring a small quantity. Do you really think a customer walking the aisles is going to buy a stock product from the retailer when the manufacturer is selling hot custom "show only" colors? Same thing with manufacturers holding back on new products to the retailer until after the shows so they can take the cream off the top. If a guy is a hobby builder and doesn't want to work with the retail outlets that's fine and there is plenty of room for those small craftsmen in the industry. Many of you guys who do that are my friends and I've always respected those guys who understand their position and possible limitations in the industry. In fact many of you know that I refer people to builders who Do Not sell where I work because I believe in their product and the integrity of the individual. Manufacturers having stores at their manufacturing facility is a whole different story. The "deals" you get are on blemished product or closeouts. If they sell new product it is usually at MAP pricing which is the manufacturers advertised price. They don't undercut their dealers. I have never seen St. Croix, Shimano, or Abu Garcia (to name a few) sell product at the show. They refer customers to those dealers who are at the show and are happy to take big re-stocking orders after the show. If you want retailers out of the show business you end up cutting your own throat because those are the guys who are buying large chunks of booth space, sponsoring show related events, etc. You might as well just forget the show and have the Saturday night swap meet. Seems to me that when shows start going downhill you hear the cry from attendees that it's turning into a flea market, unrelated business ventures take the space that was once purchased by industry vendors, and after a couple years of that the attendance starts declining. Not talking only about musky shows here but think about some of the great shows of years past that are either gone of a shadow of their former selves. The musky industry in general cries about not getting the respect or attention that it deserves yet it tends to operate like the wild west with the latest "fast gun" getting the attention and raking in the dough until the next guy comes along to bump you off. If this industry REALLY wanted to progress and get better quality products and innovations from major sport industry suppliers, we should put our big boy pants on and act like a real business.
Edited by Peter Stoltman 3/2/2014 7:19 PM
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| I have thought about this for years. I have spoken to many show attendees and booth buyers as well. I think that the industry has two possible options. 1) Keep things as is and watch the growth curve of buyers and sellers (attendees and total number of products purchased). 2) Shake up a show location or two with manufacturers only. This may allow smaller buisnesses to join their similar/bigger competition. If they do decide to sell, I would like to see custom colors and models only. Bring your standard items, but allow the customer to choose which shop (or online retailer) to buy at once they leave the show.
I hope that both the manufacturers and retailers continue. 2015 will be a change up from years past. Only after the show and feedback will we determine if adding/subtracting retailers will be a good or bad thing for our entire sport. |
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Posts: 218
| I don't think you'll have to wonder too long about how things shake out with retailers. They have been making their decisions over the last 5 years. Only a very few attend shows at the level they did 5 years ago. When I worked at my previous employer we attended and exhibited at probably 7 or 8 shows. I think that company is down to 2 shows now. My current employer did in excess of 12 shows and at one time had exhibits at 3 shows on the same weekend. We now do one. Pastika's attended a bunch of shows and they're out of business. Smokey's did at least a few shows and they don't exhibit anymore. Numbers of smaller retailers who would be good for 20-40 feet of booth space no longer show up. As they said in the Godfather, it's not personal it's business. You can't continue to buy floor space, pay staff, house, feed, gas, AND put out the money to have a well stocked booth if you can't expect to come back with a few bucks in your pocket. By the way, I wonder how many of the smaller guys report and pay taxes to the state they're exhibiting in. Trust me, if you are a legit retailer and Don't accurately report and pay those taxes you WILL regret it. Just another little expense that gets overlooked. |
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| Valid points from everyone.I guess it's a catch 22,we're all trying to make a buck. |
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Location: Freedom, WI | Pete really does have a good handle on things with his posts. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | As a consumer I want to buy from the Manufacturers at the shows and go to a Tackle store and find it well stocked, I see your points, wish it was a perfect world. Then Retailers have to compete with Internet sales and EBay sales, I'm surprised that retailers sell anything. |
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| Pete Stoltman for Commerce Secretary.... |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | If a manufacturer wants to sell direct so be it.
Retailers that support them are cutting their own throat . If I was a retailer I certainly wouldn't be carrying the product of someone who was competing against me. Manufacturers who take special show colours to a show are only cannabalising their
retailers sales and should probably offer them through their retailers. |
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Location: Freedom, WI | Horsehunter - If show colors were offered to retailers and and there are lots of retailers it would not be special as then it would almost be a standard color. People do go to shows looking for show colors that are limited. I do not do show colors myself as I am a smaller manufacturer and might do only a few of any color. A lot of manufacturers will do special colors for retailers if asked. |
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| I know some folks who are going to open "yet another" musky related tackle store in an area where the market is flooded already. There isn't enough cash coming to those already there and now the market will be diluted further. Last fall I worked pretty hard to research an article about why muske tournaments had relatively poor numbers of the anglers getting fish on a given day. One of my contributing experts had the best answer. He said you could put a couple hundred skilled anglers on the water.....but, on any given day, the lake would surrender only so many fish. It's the same reason so many of us save up for a trip to some far away Lake X. There's only so many dollars (really very few) to chase in the musky world and those chasing it can only stand so much "pressure" on their water before they opt to fish for another species. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Alot of Tackle Stores today make there own Line of Rods, Bucktails and Spinner Baits, I wonder what the Manufacturers think about that. I guess there is a little greed on both sides. |
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| No way man, I like those show only custom colors that everybody dosent have. I wouldn't want them available thru retail so everybodys got one. Those low numbers custom colors might not Be popular enough for retail to make big money on anyway.In northern Ny i can't even get to the shows but I like buying a few customs thru this site and catching fish on em. Then watch your buddies eyes light up when he sees it and says where'd you get that color man?im just envious when i see some of these show only baits on here for sale but i wouldnt want it any other way.Theres alot if ppl that arent making it to those shows or see this site either.its only a few days cant you all just get along. I went to the big hamburg Pa sports expo a few years back,I didn't find a lot of Muskie musthaves but it was cool. Booked an Illinois whitetail hunt.thinkin about drivin the 500 miles to go to the Muskie max this Saturday just to see if I can score a few rare new baits.And however said that you Probly don't go looking for stock off the shelf colors and lures was right too, Probly not unless there at a discount or something,cuz you can just order them from home |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Colours and fancy scales catch fishermen. In any given bait I can live with firetiger or glitter perch and black perch and fish anywhere. Third choice would be jailbird.
Edited by horsehunter 3/3/2014 8:26 AM
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| Maybe for you man, but when we drag the same bait as the other boats over the same hump on the graph. You know they see it too and if i know him,you yell to him what you using? Oh yup fire tiger or black perch or whatever it may be same lure I was just dragging!then you snap on this new custom that you just scored and on the bext pass bang FISH ON! It happens they get sick of seeing the same old stuff.something different gets bit sometimes and sometimes it's the same old tried and true. I here ya firetiger is one of my favorites and up to bat right there next to natural walleye.But those times you dont catch a fish maybe one of those custom,non run of the mill, lures woulda put the monster in your boat man. Or maybe they just catch my eye! |
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| it's called free enterprise...the market will decide what survives and what doesn't. i don't need anyone telling me what i should or shouldn't buy or who i should or shouldn't buy it from. it's not nice, it's business. survival of the fittest with no "right" or "wrong" involved. and the desire to make money is not greed - it provides people with jobs and livings. but only if those people are able to compete effectively for my money.
if retailers don't like competition from manufacturers at the shows, they can either outcompete them on price, outcompete on service/selection, or just plain don't go. it's no different than more than one retailer being at the show selling the same products. plus the big retailers do have some leverage with manufacturers if they're willing to say "we won't carry your product unless..."
if manufacturers don't like other companies "copying" their double-10 bucktail and attending the shows, they can outcompete on price/quality/brand recognition, stay home, or they can disappear. if they would rather attend a show than defer to a retailer, that's their choice too as are any results good or bad.
if a show suffers without certain retailers or manufacturers being present, new ones will spring up with a different approach to replace them.
'Merica!
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| Like I said before(I never under cut any retailers )and I never carried colors of lures carried by my retailers example this year guides choice brought a couple sizes and asked us if we were going to bring the same colors.So out of common courtesy we did not bring them.and only brought customs in the sizes they now carry.But I will tell you this every year we have more people ask for the tried and true stock colors than customs.I really dont no why but that's a fact.Thanks for everyones thoughts they all make sense .
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| PIKEMASTER - 3/3/2014 8:09 AM
Alot of Tackle Stores today make there own Line of Rods, Bucktails and Spinner Baits, I wonder what the Manufacturers think about that. I guess there is a little greed on both sides.
BINGO!! I have talked with many manufacturers and this is what I have heard. Pete, ask Jim from Rollie and Helens how he can ask the manufacturers to do this when R&H sells their own line of rods, lures and leaders. So does Throne Bros and others. Seems to me both sides are doing it. |
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| M Winther - 3/3/2014 8:40 AM
it's called free enterprise...the market will decide what survives and what doesn't. i don't need anyone telling me what i should or shouldn't buy or who i should or shouldn't buy it from. it's not nice, it's business. survival of the fittest with no "right" or "wrong" involved. and the desire to make money is not greed - it provides people with jobs and livings. but only if those people are able to compete effectively for my money.
if retailers don't like competition from manufacturers at the shows, they can either outcompete them on price, outcompete on service/selection, or just plain don't go. it's no different than more than one retailer being at the show selling the same products. plus the big retailers do have some leverage with manufacturers if they're willing to say "we won't carry your product unless..."
if manufacturers don't like other companies "copying" their double-10 bucktail and attending the shows, they can outcompete on price/quality/brand recognition, stay home, or they can disappear. if they would rather attend a show than defer to a retailer, that's their choice too as are any results good or bad.
if a show suffers without certain retailers or manufacturers being present, new ones will spring up with a different approach to replace them.
'Merica!
I wish we could all live in such a simplistic world as you. |
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| Corso Mike - 3/3/2014 12:33 PM
I wish we could all live in such a simplistic world as you.
Okay...what alternative do you propose to the forces of supply and demand operating within a free marketplace?
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| Holy smokes folks.I wasnt trying to wake up the hornets nest.It was just a simple question. |
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| This stuff, for those who really are careful to pick apart fact from fiction, will create anger and frustration to be injected into the discussion. If you look at the Washington Post, once powerful enough to take down a president, and one of the top three Newspapers in America, much can be learned. It just sold a few months ago for relatively nothing, in fact about 5 times less than Facebook paid last week for a small texting application that hasn't made a dime yet. What does that say for a brick and mortar musky store? Nothing good! I don't like it, so I am trying to help delay the future. I do my shopping at stores near the lakes I fish and I will continue to do so until I can't. |
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| gordonmann69 - 3/3/2014 12:02 PM
PIKEMASTER - 3/3/2014 8:09 AM
Alot of Tackle Stores today make there own Line of Rods, Bucktails and Spinner Baits, I wonder what the Manufacturers think about that. I guess there is a little greed on both sides.
BINGO!! I have talked with many manufacturers and this is what I have heard. Pete, ask Jim from Rollie and Helens how he can ask the manufacturers to do this when R&H sells their own line of rods, lures and leaders. So does Throne Bros and others. Seems to me both sides are doing it.
I had said pretty much all I had to say on the topic and was going to leave it alone but since this question was addressed directly to me I'll answer the best I can and then leave it alone. This has been a very civil discussion and various views and opinions expressed. I have a feeling that pursuing the topic much further than this on a public forum is just going around in circles and probably has the potential to turn ugly at some point.
Now regarding the question at hand. If you really want to ask Jim a question regarding his business practices you can just give him a call. He is probably the most open and honest guy I've ever worked for. So I won't presume to answer for him but here is my take on stores having "their own" products. We don't manufacture anything. Products that have the Musky Shop name on them are purchased from manufacturers as private label products. In other words we have contracted with a manufacturer to produce a product to our specifications that then has the shop name on it. Currently there are two product lines, the Musky Shop Custom Rods and Musky Shop Leaders. We don't have a secret little room under the shop where we are building rods or tying leaders. Just as we do with any other manufacturer we are purchasing a product that has the store name on it. This is no different than let's say the Bass Pro Shop rods or Cabela's having their Guide Series rods. So I guess I'm not seeing how this is much different. We are still purchasing from a manufacturer and then selling to the public. It's still following the conventional system of marketing a product with the manufacturer producing the product and then either selling to a distributor or the retailer who then markets and sells the product to the public.
As a side note addressing Kyle's concerns. I don't think there is any need to apologize or be concerned at all. You brought up an interesting topic that generated some real good discussion. There will always be at least two or more sides to this story but I think it's great that perhaps through discussing our collective ideas we can all help to improve the sport and maybe understand where the other guy is coming from. Heck I just put up a nice sized re-stock order of Smoker Tackle last week that makes for a very nice display in the store. And for those who care to think about this further we carry something like 45 individual sku's of Kyle's lures. I don't see that changing anytime soon because he makes a darned good product and we have a good working relationship. I'm guessing there aren't a whole lot of other stores who carry that kind of variety of SS Shads. Keep up the good work Kyle. |
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Posts: 32955
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ' Currently there are two product lines, the Musky Shop Custom Rods and Musky Shop Leaders. We don't have a secret little room under the shop where we are building rods or tying leaders.'
There's the BINGO....actually, lack of one. Thanks for the retail perspective Pete.
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Posts: 1082
Location: Aurora | As a consumer, I like seeing manufacturers and retailers at the shows together but fear retailers are doing more harm than good to their business when they don't communicate with the manufacturers/inventors or engage with the consumer.
Hit the WI show last weekend and noticed several price differences between the two with the manufacturer's consistently lower. Even the Shimano booth was selling reels cheaper than the in-house retailers.
Savvy consumers know what stuff is selling for and notice these price differences. If they want to pay full price for a black mag dawg, they'll order one online or walk in off the street and buy one before or after the show season.
This has gotta be a lose-lose situation for the retailer because the consumer is always gonna side with the manufacturer and be suspicious of why the retailer charges more.
Also, it can't be a secret that the retailer setting up a full inventory with regular pricing is gonna look out of place at these shows. The agenda is crystal clear if all they do is sit on a chair, waiting to collect money and as a retailer, if they're not willing to evolve along with the manufacturers and consumers that drive the market, they'll eventually face extinction.
I know that both can live in harmony at the shows because there's a few retailers that do well by proactively engaging with the manufacturers, marketing approaches, and consumers.
They're easy to spot with show special/package pricing, pro staff giving demos/sharing information, and friendly customer service. As a result, there's a "buzz" about the deals they're offering and folks are walking around with their bags in-hand as a result. This approach makes more sense and consumers seem to respond. |
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Posts: 32955
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | How many consumers actually attend the shows?
More people visit here over a show's span than attend the Chicago, Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Expos combined.
If the manufacturers ever have to go it alone, the process short circuits.
Sure, online shopping is growing in popularity, and will take a chunk of the retail market. Savvy retailers know that already and have adjusted.
One has to reach the buyer. Shows alone won't get that done unless the brand's production run is very small. Booth space and expenses takes a big chunk of the profits out. I know some builders attend the shows to promote, try to make a little, and make sure the public sees them....a form of promotion/advertising and an advertising expense.
If all of the retailers leave the shows, woe to the shows; there will be booths full of vacation property salesmen and the anglers will stop attending.
Balance is the key.
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Posts: 218
| Sidejack, are you serious that Shimano was selling product at their booth with Shimano dealers also exhibiting? That is a new twist. I would think at least one dealer that I know who exhibited at that show would have had a fit if Shimano was selling product directly to the consumer. I have NEVER seen them do that before. |
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Location: central Wisconsin | I did not see Shimano selling any reels, demos only. They did give me a new hat as apparently I was wearing the oldest Shimano hat he had ever seen. |
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Posts: 1082
Location: Aurora | Peter Stoltman - 3/4/2014 6:58 AM
Sidejack, are you serious that Shimano was selling product at their booth with Shimano dealers also exhibiting?..
Unsolicited, they offered the 400D fer $349.00
Then, all three reps began looking around the booth and said it was their last one.
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| How many consumers actually attend the shows?
More people visit here over a show's span than attend the Chicago, Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Expos combined.
tons of people visit this and other websites. the difference is that while at one of the shows in person they have both the opportunity and (usually) the inclination to buy something while they're there. it might be something they saw or read about online, but a lot of actual buying still happens in person at shows and stores. attendance numbers vary depending on the show.
according to the Wausau Ch 9 news report, the Wisconsin Expo organizers estimated that 2,000 people attended this year. people there said it was busy.
the Madison Fishing Expo (multi-species but lots of musky presence) sees 25,000 people through the doors each year. there were times where it was tough to stop at a booth because of the crowd pressure. Joe Bucher told one of the organizers this year that it's the best fishing show he's ever attended.
selling lures at a show is a numbers game: you will only get a small percentage of folks at the show to stop, and a smaller amount to buy. more attendees = more sales. so, the show has to be attractive enough to draw in many people if it is going to be worthwhile for sellers to attend.
if the show promoters get a big crowd of people to show up, it's up to the sellers to capitalize on it. quit worrying about trying to tell the next guy down the row what he should or shouldn't do running his business, and instead focus on what it takes to get my money out of my pocket...i'm there, so i'm ready to spend it.
Edited by M Winther 3/4/2014 8:14 AM
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Posts: 42
| I have to drive an hour and a half south to get to R+H, just to give you an idea how far I drive to get to the Milwaukee show. Even though I drive right past R+H to get there I would be a lot less inclined to drive down to the show if they were not retailing there. If I want to buy a new reel, or certain rods they are often the only outlet at the show. They carry manufactures that do not attend. Anyway, the more vendors at the show the more interested I will be in attending. I would summarize my position with a Bob Marley Quote "When the rain falls it don't fall on just one mans house." |
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| Thanks Pete,we enjoy working with you as well. Glad you understood we I was comming from. |
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Posts: 1202
Location: Money, PA | The funny thing to me is that people see you collect $15, $20 or $25 for a lure and they immediately think..."Man are they raking in the bucks!" ...Yeah OK!
I, like Fat A.Z., have a full time career and make baits on the side...trust me, there's ONLY a handful of people who do it full time and are making a living at it (I'm talking about full manufacturers)...there's a reason for that. Time and work WE manufactures put in vs. the money return hardly would seem worth it. If I broke down all the supply costs, taxes and time sensitive nature of the materials used; it would blow most people away.
I currently do not carry any baits in retail for a few reasons...one, I'm too busy as it is with my online orders, word of mouth and the few shows I do attend. Two, I have a life, family/kids and I fish hard when the time comes. However, the main reason is this...I have had several retailers approach me so they could potentially carry my baits in their stores; MOST, not all, but most want me to sell them my product for next to nothing. I'm sorry, but I put a lot of pride and hard work into EACH bait that leaves my shop. I do not farm anything out to China, Mexico or any foreign country for bodies or any parts that go into my product. They are ALL made by hand and hand airbrushed then hand assembled by ME. Some of the offers I have been given were downright slaps to the face. There are also liability costs and insurances and packaging costs that just are not worth the time or hassle.
Now, don't get me wrong, I totally understand that the retailers have their place and certainly offer a convenience factor to the consumers and I totally understand and support that. They SO have their place in the muskie community which is essential; but so do the down home boys who are sweatin' their asses off in some basements somewhere producing hand made baits AND choose to sell them on their own. Call it what you will, crafts or art or whatever....BUT bottom line is I create these things for one main reason and one reason only, and that's to BANG fish!
A lot of all this is simply about integrity...I choose not to deal with retailers at this time for various reasons, nothing personal against them AND I realize that someday I may actually NEED the retailers. However, if I did sell to retailers, why in the world would I ever want to sell my product for as much or even less that the retailer I sell to? That just seems, not only dumb, but certainly lacking integrity...The door also swings both ways and I've seen some guys get burnt by certain retailers in regards to costs, promotions etc. There are two online retailers that I plan to eventually work with when the time comes. They are CLASS acts and that's who I choose to deal with. In this business I have found that two things are things to keep your eye out for....Reliability and Integrity!
Back to the original Q, Do we need a manufacturer's only show?? My question is "For what?" What's the purpose and how does it benefit everybody in the muskie fishing community? Aren't we all in this together??
Edited by ShutUpNFish 3/4/2014 1:12 PM
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Posts: 182
| M Winther - 3/3/2014 1:55 PM
Corso Mike - 3/3/2014 12:33 PM
I wish we could all live in such a simplistic world as you.
Okay...what alternative do you propose to the forces of supply and demand operating within a free marketplace?
M Winther I apologize for being rude. Not my normal M.O..
I am own a wholesale/manufacturing company. We live and die with our retailers. Without them we would not exist. For us to go into a show and sell directly would end many good, long standing relationships. I am not in the fishing industry. This may be why I find this discussion hard to understand. |
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Posts: 241
| OK - Here is a good example. (names intentionally left off)
Contacted a retail store on the phone yesterday about a rod I wanted to buy. They carry many brands but not this particular model. I asked if they could order it in for me. I was willing to pay the normal markup, shipping, etc. I don't expect a deal and actually expected to pay a nominal fee for the extra work. They said "No". I would have to contact the manufacturer and order it myself.
Hhhhmmm - OK. I don't understand all the logistics behind a retail store but in my business we would have taken this "special order".
Backdraft |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Good example of what? That has nothing to do with the original question and has nothing to do with a show.
Some manufacturers have minimum order requirements and do not allow a retailer to 'cherry pick' the line; some require a minimum $ order, etc. |
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Posts: 241
| Oh - OK, sorry. You can remove it if you want.
It's an example of TRYING to buy from a retailer as opposed to buying direct from a manufacturer or an internet only store. That explains the answer I was given. I didn't realize some manufacturers have minimum order requirements and do not allow a retailer to 'cherry pick' the line; some require a minimum $ order, etc. |
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Having been on both sides, I too would think a lure maker only show is likely going to be failure. Yes, the guys who don't sell through retail channels will likely make some money. But they can also do that with the existing shows. I like seeing the non-lure makers there, I find stuff, I can't find else where. I also patronize the retailers, like Rolllie & Helen's, Thorne Bros, Musky Shop, etc. because I don't drive by their shops every year. I get stuff the bait makers are not offering.... reels, line, tools, etc.
Pete, is right failing to pay the taxman will put you out of business in a hurry! Folks seemed to be surprised that we added the tax to the sale, instead of rolling it into the show price> Smart retailer's add the tax to the total sale, it makes tax accounting easier if you have multiple products.
LOL- I was thinking the Milw Muskie Show's theme should have been "Blades & Tinsel for Muskies".
Have fun!
Al |
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | I have to go with Paul on this one. I started making baits 10 years ago because I was a woodworker and thought I could make a glider that had a certain action. And I have kept making and painting baits because I feel no more joy than that of someone telling me that they have caught fish on one of my baits. If people had any idea of the investment in tools and products you must buy to put out a decent bait they would understand why the little guy wants to get what he can for his product. And forget about the time invested.
You must also understand that for most of us basement guys the show season is a very short window to not only sell our lures but act as a marketing department and go meet people and get the word out about our baits. I mean know disrespect when is I say that most retail stores are not going to try to push every bait in there shop. They need to sell rods reels and other big ticket items to keep the lights on. I have to do all I can so that my baits are not forgotten about and stuck in a corner somewhere. I know they work but how do I get the word out? I pay for a booth at a show. |
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manufacturers only show