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Posts: 1828
| Do you guys find yourselves experiencing the "exceptions to the rules" almost as often as you experience the rule itself? In the last couple years I've caught enough muskies under conditions that should not have been good that I really question the rules. Now, I know there are no hard and fast rules, and I never did live in a world of musky-fishing absolutes, but the last two seasons threw out some established [in my mind] patterns and broke the rules... a lot. Let me qualify that I don't catch very many fish. Definitely not enough for statistical significance from which theories could be developed. But I still use my data to build ideas, and my ideas are changing so much that I wonder who else has the same thoughts.
So if you were to take some generally-accepted "rules" of good musky fishing and boil them down to just a few, vague, but almost-indisputable rules, what would it look like?
Here's my start. I admit this is painfully general and gutless; it is for the trade-in of truth:
- Fishing is almost never worse during full or new moon periods than during quarter-moon periods.
- Sunset is usually not the worst time of day.
- If the fish are "going", bucktails are almost always good.
That's just a few for now.
And here are a few claims that may be contrary to popular opinion. For sure they are contrary to my two-years-ago opinions.
- Nevermind barometric pressure. Don't even check it. Just fish, go by "feel" and evidence in the weather and in the water.
- Flat calm, sunny days are fine.
- Muggy, windy, warm, cloudy days are crappy as often as they are good. And as often as any other type of day.
- you CAN catch fish in the same spot(s) all year long (*sometimes. A lot of times.)
Does this make any sense? | |
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Posts: 210
| What doesn't make sense is why you didn't write this in book form. You basically said it all. There's folks out there who would pay good money for good wisdom. | |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | If I'm in the mood and have nothing more pressing I go fishing and if I contact fish (I do more often than not) it's good if I don't it's not bad. | |
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Posts: 426
Location: Perryville, MO | Appreciate what you've written. Probably no where good enough at the sport to offer anything more to the subject, but what you've said does prove one or two conventional beliefs. "There really are no rules" (as you pointed out). And more, "stupid fish!" | |
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Posts: 483
Location: NE PA | I fish on plenty of days, both bad and good, and get skunked equally as much. I fish becasue I enjoy being on the water. If I waited for my schedule to line up with the perfect day i would never get out. | |
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Posts: 192
| I catch more fish at lunch time (11 am until 1 pm) than first light and dusk.
Pre-front, cloudy, windy days are over rated.....at least for me. I catch more on stable "nice" weather days......and I almost never catch a fish when it is raining.
Some of this has to due with when I'm most likely to be out fishing but I've fished for enough years now to think not really. | |
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Posts: 8782
| There are times when my fishing success has aligned nicely with "conventional wisdom"... There have been others where it did not. A few things I've experienced over the years:
My 4 biggest muskies were caught on flat sunny days. They were the only fish we saw that day.
I've had many "perfect" overcast pre-frontal days where we caught nothing.
East winds really do suck.
Muskies like to eat at lunchtime.
When you see weather moving in, get ready.
I've never caught a fish in a heavy downpour. Before, after, and in-between downpours can be great.
If the moon is just coming up over the horizon something is going to eat.
If the birds (especially seagulls) are just sitting there doing nothing, don't expect much.
Muskies are either nowhere to be found, or they are everywhere.
Feeding windows are real.
If the fish aren't moving, they will when something changes. Could be wind picking up, or laying down, could be getting cloudy or getting sunny, could be blowing out of one direction and switch to another, sun coming up, sun going down...
Fish like current.
If you're catching a bunch of little pike, move.
If there's a musky on a spot, there's probably more than one.
Whatever the weather is like, it's better if it either just started or if it's been like that for days.
If you're trolling and nothing is happening, eat a sandwich. Works every time.
If you want your partner to catch a fish, set your rod down and go pee. Works every time.
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Posts: 455
| The reason for this is simple. Muskies are predetors living in nature. Life is not easy. They don`t eat on a schedual like us. A muskie does not get hungry at a certain time cruise up to a perch or school of baitfish and suck them down. If that was the case they would never eat lures. Muskies spend lots of time looking for food that's why we can catch them. Maybe the fish didn`t find his meal at the moon peak and has to keep looking. There is some randomness to this sport. You can`t predict everything. | |
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Posts: 1828
| esoxaddict - 2/18/2014 11:37 PM
East winds really do suck. I think I agree with this, most of the time.
esoxaddict - 2/18/2014 11:37 PM
When you see weather moving in, get ready. This is one "rule" that I've seen broken almost as much, if not as much, as it has held true. I'm cutting it from my list.
esoxaddict - 2/18/2014 11:37 PM
If the moon is just coming up over the horizon something is going to eat. This is another one that has let me down a lot. On a day with moderate activity (lookers, no biters), I expect them to go nuts at moonrise, ESPECIALLY if it's full or new moon, and then at that time... NOTHING. Can't even get them to follow back out. Of course there are a lot of other factors that could be involved; first and foremost is that I could just really suck. Anyway, I've discounted this as a rule, for now.
esoxaddict - 2/18/2014 11:37 PM
If the birds (especially seagulls) are just sitting there doing nothing, don't expect much. Makes sense. I've also heard people say that the worse the bugs get, the better the fishing gets. Just evidence of the food chain being active, i.e. lots of energy expended on finding/eating food during that particular time.
esoxaddict - 2/18/2014 11:37 PM
Muskies are either nowhere to be found, or they are everywhere. Except in the cases when you caught your biggest muskies. Four times that happened to you - only one fish was caught on a day, and it was big. Are those four occurrences profound enough to weaken that rule?
esoxaddict - 2/18/2014 11:37 PM
Feeding windows are real. Absolutely. This is probably the most proven statement about musky fishing, in my experience.
esoxaddict - 2/18/2014 11:37 PM
If the fish aren't moving, they will when something changes. Could be wind picking up, or laying down, could be getting cloudy or getting sunny, could be blowing out of one direction and switch to another, sun coming up, sun going down... This is too specific and too often I don't see it come true, so I'm not using it as a rule yet.
esoxaddict - 2/18/2014 11:37 PM
Whatever the weather is like, it's better if it either just started or if it's been like that for days. As opposed to it having only been steady for one or two days? That is, you are saying that the weather is good if it either (A) just changed, or (B) hasn't changed in at least a few days, whereas if the weather changed between one and three days ago, fishing won't be as good. In general, most of the time. Right?
esoxaddict - 2/18/2014 11:37 PM
If you're trolling and nothing is happening, eat a sandwich. Works every time.
If you want your partner to catch a fish, set your rod down and go pee. Works every time. The sandwich and coffee rule is so true.
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Posts: 2325
Location: Chisholm, MN | There is usually one fish that didn't get the memo about it being a bad day.
There's always tomorrow.
I'm never satisfied!
You should give yourself a little credit because I bet you've caught more and bigger fish than most people on this board. | |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | My Dad didn't fish muskies he wanted something he could eat. HE WOULDN'T GO OUT IF THE COWS WERE LYING DOWN. When the cows got up so did he.
Edited by horsehunter 2/19/2014 5:52 PM
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Posts: 192
| We used that sandwich trick back in the seventies fishing Walleyes on Big Winnie, trolling Lindy rigs or Little Joes. Worked every time.
Another I thought of is I either catch two fish per day or none. I rarely catch one. | |
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Posts: 455
| I know a guy who swears by the cows. He is a 20+ year muskie guide too. | |
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Posts: 1828
| Kirby Budrow - 2/19/2014 5:33 PM
There is usually one fish that didn't get the memo about it being a bad day.
This one's great. Not only true, but great motivation. | |
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Posts: 210
| If the cows are lying down when I am going fishing, I stop my truck, walk over to the cows, kick them in their posteriors to get them up, walk back to the truck, and continue on, feeling much better that the cows are up while I am going fishing! | |
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Posts: 833
| This is one of the better threads I've seen on here this winter. Great stuff.
One thing I've noticed is that often times these rules leave a lot out. For example: This past fall I had my livebait presentation dialed in. I had consistent action. So I had location and presention working. This lead to an observation on the timing:
If you determine a feeding window relating to a solunar event, then there is a strong chance this event will be the window the next day barring a significant change in conditions. (ie big weather change.) This was my key to very consistent fishing last fall. But of course, I had to have the other stuff dialed in first.
A fun aside here: If you take the above as mostly true. (never 100% with Muskies) then is not the best time to mess with location (new spots) or presentation (new lures) when the other two factors are constant? Ie if you are highly confident in the window and the presentation, then during the window is the best time to test a new spot to see if it will produce. (you have high certainty that the window and presentation are valid) I did this last fall when I had the other factors lined up and low and behold I found new spots! (Great fun sticking fish in a spot all to myself when there are 5 boats pounding the community spot 200 yards away.)
The corrolary of course is that if you do not all three factors figured out, then your odds of discovery may in fact be very low, to a point of wasting time. (I'm still wrestling with this one, but it seems to be true)
I do not think this reasoing is sacred by any stretch. However, it worked very well for me this year and clarified the aspect of "when" to try new things in my mind. Made me realize that if I just tie on some random lure when I do not even have location or a window figured out that I might be hurting my chances vs. helping them. Again, no hard rules, just my observations.
Edited by Brad P 2/20/2014 9:28 AM
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Posts: 1828
| Brad P - 2/20/2014 9:21 AM
A fun aside here: If you take the above as mostly true. (never 100% with Muskies) then is not the best time to mess with location (new spots) or presentation (new lures) when the other two factors are constant? Ie if you are highly confident in the window and the presentation, then during the window is the best time to test a new spot to see if it will produce. (you have high certainty that the window and presentation are valid) I did this last fall when I had the other factors lined up and low and behold I found new spots! (Great fun sticking fish in a spot all to myself when there are 5 boats pounding the community spot 200 yards away.)
Great point, I agree. And it's not really an aside - I think it's on point.
If you want to keep building your musky-fishing repertoire:
1) experiment with different baits and/or presentations when you believe you have the locations and timing figured out.
2) experiment with timing when you believe you have the presentation and locations figured out.
3) experiment with locations when you believe you have the timing and the presentations figured out. (This is what you said).
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Posts: 833
| Exactly. Nice summary. I went more long winded because I wanted to explain my logic by taking you down the path I went down to come to the conclusion. I think, especially on the web, we see a lot of advice in the form of platitudes. While these points might be valid, they rarely provide context and thus they are less than useful to an angler trying to expand his/her knowledge base.
The above stuff on rules is an example of this. Consider the rule on Moon activity. Is the moon rule invalid or were the times it failed a result of location or presentation being incorrect? How do you know for sure? The example I gave goes directly against this. This fall I was on a bite where the late morning Major was a consistent trigger. Of course, I had the other aspects dialed, so I was able to make strong conclusions on this timing mechanism. I could state a rule that "In post turnover fall the AM Major is a the time to be on the water." Obviously without location and presentation mileage would vary and thus the rule would be stupid.
The reality is that a window related rule like this IS stupid, IMO. Again, context is key here. If I dial in presentation and location, then I can dial in timing. (Not necessarily in that order, luck will come into play as well.) Without consistent succeess confirming all three aspects, then any rule on one aspect is not really helpful unless you luck into the other pieces of the puzzle. IMO, this is where the guy who has consistent (day after day) time on the water has a huge advantage over the weekender.
The real rubber meets the road question is what is the best way to dial in efficiently? That to me is the hard part as at somepoint along the road of inexperience you have to guess. Example: This spring I want to expand my open water trolling repetoire. I've heard it works, I beleive it will work. Barring paying a guide, I will have to go out and take my lumps while learning location (lucking into fish), presentation (also lucking into fish), and timing (again luck.) That is daunting, so the only thing that will keep me going is the beleif it will work and using as many resources as possible to shorten the curve. (Networking, internet, books, etc.)
In short, unless I get very lucky, I'm going to throw up some goose eggs, but if I keep working at the tactic I "should" be able to refine into getting consistent results. Over a few years... LOL
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Posts: 1828
| Brad P - 2/20/2014 10:23 AM
... any rule on one aspect is not really helpful unless you luck into the other pieces of the puzzle.
This should go into the "real" rules book.
Brad P - 2/20/2014 10:23 AM
The real rubber meets the road question is what is the best way to dial in efficiently? That to me is the hard part as at somepoint along the road of inexperience you have to guess.
This is where my mind was going at the start of this thread.
One could say that at some time(s) during the day, you WILL get a chance at a [or multiple] fish if you're at [one of] the right location(s) offering [one of] the right presentation(s). So if you could be offering all presentations, at all locations, all day long, the probability of getting hit goes to 1. Obviously it's not possible to do that. But I still like the idea.
How would everyone rank presentation, timing, and location? I think presentation is the least important, and location is the most. Luckily, location is the easiest to figure out, or if not figure out, to deduce where the fish are most likely to be from historical data and current observations.
I think TIMING is the hardest aspect to nail down with a rule, because there are four "dimensions" to it: timing as it relates to the earth's position in orbit of the sun (seasons); timing relative to the earth's angular position about its axis (a.k.a the sun's position in the sky, or solar-time-of-day); timing relative to the moon's angular position relative to our location on earth (a.k.a. the moon's location in the sky); and timing relative to the recent and upcoming weather. Ooh, timing is a huge topic all on its own.
I had two consecutive days last fall of nice fish caught during October full moon, moonrise/sunset time of day. Five muskies from low to upper 40's in a certain spot "class" with a deep(ish), slow(ish) presentation. So you bet your arse I'll be trying it this fall, but the timing part I believe is least likely to repeat. It certainly could be that the peak bite is at sunset again, but to cover all bases, I'll be fishing all day, and it won't surprise me one bit if "the bite" is at noon, or 3 pm, instead of moonrise/sunset. Because the I've seen exceptions to the moonrise/sunset "rule" almost as much as I've seen fish follow the rule. | |
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Posts: 833
| So to this point I think you are on the right track. IMO the timing is the most variable. However, if you have strong confidence in a specific presentation and location, then the timing isn't that hard to figure out. It is literally a matter of time. Now obviously, we cannot fish 24-7 over consecutive days so it isn't that easy, but you get my drift.
IMO, this is a great example of why confidence is important. If you do not have timing, then you have to have confidence in location and presentation in order to wait out the fish.
ON presentation I think it CAN BE less strict than the other two factors. I've seen cases where multiple lure types were getting smacked during an agressive window. However, this fall for much of hte post turnover season Livebait was the only thing getting eaten. So in that latter case, Presentation was just as crtical as the other three. | |
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Posts: 8782
| Timing is important, but most of us don't have the luxury of picking and choosing when we fish. It's wise to pay attention to weather and solunar influences so you can be on a good spot when conditions are ideal. But for most of us we fish when we can and hope for the best. Location is obviously the most important factor. You'll miss the feeding windows if you're fishing where the fish aren't. Presentation matters. When they are going, they're going to eat whatever you put in front of them. During those times, we like to throw something you can work fast that covers a lot of water very quickly. That's easy. It's during the times when the fish really aren't moving all that much that your skills really come into play. Part of it is a guessing game, trying to figure out what they want. The other part is using a lure that gets down to where the fish are. If they're not active, you have to put a lure in front of their face that triggers a response. This is where rubber baits, twitch baits, and gliders come into play for us. As for the freak fish that you catch that were the only fish you saw all day? My theory on that, and it's nothing more than a theory, is that those fish didn't feed when all the other ones did. There's always a hungry one SOMEWHERE.
The truth is there is no right way to become a better angler. The best you can do is exactly what you are doing. Take every fish and every day as a learning experience. Do your best to figure out what was happening when you caught fish, why the fish were there, and what worked to make them eat. Then apply that. You don't even have to know why the fish were there or why you caught them. It's fun to try to figure it out. Why isn't as important as knowing that this or that spot has been great in the evening, or that this or that lake seems to have a great topwater bite in early September, or that these particular conditions seem to drive the fish into the weeds... It's all a big jigsaw puzzle, and you might only get a piece or two on any given day. Logs are good. Articles and shows and seminars are good. There's a lot of good information here. But the real learning takes place on the water, by paying attention to everything. Building confidence takes a lot of time. It's not easy to throw the same lure all day long, going back on spots again and again. But you're better off throwing a proven lure on a spot that you know regularly holds fish than you are blindly fishing this or that with this or that hoping to make something happen when the fish have just shut down. The real key, in my opinion, is to go out there and do something different in a new spot when you are catching fish. That's how you learn new water and different presentations.
Easier said than done, though. When you're catching fish in the weeds on a brown bucktail, you want to stay in the weeds throwing that brown bucktail. | |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I've never fished live bait which is not generally available around here and never felt handicapped. My wife would think me pretty stupid to have the amount of money I have invested in lures and go out and buy minnows. Actually I think I'm kinda stupid to have the amount of money I have invested in lures that don't get wet. | |
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Posts: 8782
| Ebenezer - 2/20/2014 9:12 AM
If the cows are lying down when I am going fishing, I stop my truck, walk over to the cows, kick them in their posteriors to get them up, walk back to the truck, and continue on, feeling much better that the cows are up while I am going fishing!
LOL! 
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | One thing I learned radio tracking muskies on Eagle Lake Ontario in 1986 is that they don't all do the same thing at the same time. Simply stated above, "there is usually one fish that didn't get the memo...
Also as stated, bad days can equal BIG fish, albeit one bite that day. | |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Larry Ramsell - 2/20/2014 3:48 PM
Also as stated, bad days can equal BIG fish, albeit one bite that day.
So true. Can't count the number of days on the water where the fish are off, usually bluebird post frontal, but the one bite for the day is a big fish. | |
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Posts: 8782
| Will Schultz - 2/21/2014 8:43 AM
Larry Ramsell - 2/20/2014 3:48 PM
Also as stated, bad days can equal BIG fish, albeit one bite that day.
So true. Can't count the number of days on the water where the fish are off, usually bluebird post frontal, but the one bite for the day is a big fish.
It's happened to us a bunch of times, too. The only fish you see all day is the one you catch, and it's often a good one. But WHY?
Did the smaller more aggressive fish beat the big ones to the food yesterday?
Are the fish you see on those days the ones that just didn't eat yesterday?
Have the larger fish in the system adapted to feed outside of the normal windows when everything has shut down and prey is easier to catch?
I used to think it was just a fluke, but it's happened too many times.
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Posts: 140
Location: Northern Illinois | Man you guys can really pontificate on the little things. Reading this makes
my noggin hurt. Me throw bait....me sometimes catch fish. | |
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Posts: 720
| The only time I won't fish is in the throws of a thunder storm. That being said my next sentence is going to sound very arrogant, cocky and in no way do I want this to sound that way. I get in the boat I always expect to boat a fish. Doesn't always happen but more often than not I do contact fish. Rules are made to be broken and the more you fish the more rules you'll break. The only way to become a better musky fisherman is to fish more. Again not trying to sound like an obnoxious know it all. I personally need a positive mind set. If I don't feel like I'm going to catch a fish I probably won't. I love what Larry and Will said about bad days. Its so true. | |
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Posts: 166
Location: Alexandria, MN | Love this thread! Been at this game about 20 years now. Just when I think I am starting to understand it, the game changes.
I used to love cloudy, breezy days. Now, sunshine is the common denominator in the last 5 seasons worth of my (or buddies) muskie photos.
On an outing last September in central MN, we had a day that started out mostly cloudy, south breeze about 10 mph. 4 guys, 2 boats, one lazy follow between us the first 3 hours. Then, the lake laid down flat, the sun came out, and so did the Muskies. The next hour produced 3 in the net, two hookups lost, and a half dozen other follows. Then the clouds rolled in, the breeze started, and not a fin the rest of the day.
Used to fish Lac Seul a lot. After 2 days of not seeing a fish, if a front came through, they came out of the woodwork - almost without fail. Less than 100 miles south of there on Eagle, the fish don’t seem to give a tinker’s #*^@ about weather fronts - they just feed when they want to (like me).
I agree with using bucktails when fish are “going” - they cover water and have a high hooking %. I also agree with ANY weather change will change the fishing - either good or bad. Wildlife is active? Can be a good sign, but not always. I also think some of these potential “triggers” can be lake-specific (see above Seul/Eagle comparison). I used to think weather trumped solunar activity. Now I’m not so sure. Lots of changes to the Muskie world in the last 20 years... fewer follows for me, but about the same # of biters. I guess I have to wonder how much the increase in fishing pressure has changed patterns and how so??
Edited by phselect 2/25/2014 6:48 PM
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Posts: 833
| I think the biggest take away on what you wrote is that things can differ from lake to lake, albeit, probably with some geographical bias. One thing that comes out during the Wahl Tournament in the Metro every year is that most of the fish are caught (across a bunch of metro lakes) at around the same time. This obviously argues for the concept of a feeding window.
I haven't lost faith that by paying attention to details one can up one's success. One observation I've had over my short time chasing these fish is that often times we do not fully appreciate the value of one of these little "rules" because we do not appreciate the related details that produced said rule. As I stated before, A rule like "Muskies like the Full Moon" can really be frustrating. Is it because the rule doesn't hold or was it because when you went out you were fishing deep and the fish were all shallow? When we fail, do we know why?
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Posts: 8782
| Brad P - 2/26/2014 2:03 PM
[...] Is it because the rule doesn't hold or was it because when you went out you were fishing deep and the fish were all shallow? When we fail, do we know why?
Sometimes. I make it a point when we're up in Canada to talk to all the other musky anglers in camp at the end of the day. Most of the time, results are similar. Everyone sees activity at the same time, everyone catches their fish around the same time, everyone comes back to camp empty handed, or everyone comes back to camp talking about how great it was today...
Sometimes, other boats see and catch fish and you do nothing. If they are willing to give you any insight, you'll likely find they were doing something you were not, somewhere you were not.
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Posts: 358
| The other day a front was coming in, BP was dropping, warm day (unusual for this area and time of year ) 56 degrees, good cloud cover, deer were out in early afternoon feeding heavily, fish in fish tank were feeding like a frenzied Piranha. Thought this would be a productive time, Moon Secrets indicated a good time to fish. Five hours worked various jerk and crankbaits real slowly in known good spots....Not one bite or follow  The good part....I really enjoyed my time out and knew I gave it my best shot....still beats driving up and down the Interstates. | |
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Posts: 267
| Congratulations! You've just made it totally unnecessary to subscribe to any magazine, buy any book, or troll any forum for info. You've summed up muskie fishing in one sentence, "go fishing when you can!". We'll soon see Saric, Bucher, Maina, Heiting, etc, in the unemployment line.
One rule that I've noticed lately is: If I'm out in my boat, they ain't goin'. LOL.
On a serious note, I agree with most of your rules that don't always pan out. | |
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Posts: 455
| When I don`t get one and the conditions looked good I just figure I didn`t put the lure in front of the rite fish at the rite time that's all. | |
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Posts: 121
Location: Forest Lake, MN & Bemidji, MN | Great discussion, thanks Jaultman for something productive. It seems like most could agree the classic rules are general guidelines at best as catching often requires multiple things to go right and some of which you may have no influence or control over. I am really interested to hear if guys have caught multiple adult fish during a short period of time (say 4 hours) when no classic rules have been in play?
I fish whenever I can because I can’t that much (1 to 3 times a month and maybe 1 longer trip per year) but I think it’s fun and valuable to pay attention to the classic rules when I do have the luxury of planning. I completely agree with Kirby about the 1 fish who didn’t get the memo about the day being bad. I have had a few days where we didn't have a single follow but caught a fish, it only takes 1 stupid fish. Keeps me going for sure. In general, I lean towards the theory that more often than not there will be some classic rule involved when we catch 1, especially when we catch multiple adult fish in short period on the water. When I have experienced really active numbers of fish and have had multiple fish days (only 9 multiple fish days), it always seems to be during an “event” or classic rule of some sort for me. Just my own personal experience. I have only been muskie fishing 7 years so I would love to hear others stories of multiple catches with no solunar or weather related influences and what you think may have triggered it. My guess is huge schools of baitfish...
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When exceptions lose their rarity