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Posts: 239
Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | Back in the day, the old time guides did not fish. Porter Dean, Pop Dean, Larry Ellerman, come to mind in Vilas Co. Now days it seems all guides fish with their customers. Some hand the rod to the customer when a fish is hooked, but I sure wouldn't call that my musky. Atlantic salmon guides do not fish, both in Canada and Europe.
I have seen this year, guides at the head of the boat, running the trolling motor and very pleased to take first crack at each spot.
I personally think the job of a guide is to teach and put the guest on fish, not get a paid fishing trip for himself. Just my opinion.
Your mileage may vary
Mudpuppy
Edited by Mudpuppy 10/1/2013 5:09 PM
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Been beat to death here a bunch of times.
Ask the guide questions and get answers about your concerns when you hire him/her. If you don't, then it's on you. |
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | I fished with mark lijewski early this year to better understand the art of open water fishing. He fished most of the day with us but that helped us understand how he worked baits. For the most part though he threw " alternative baits". Meaning if we were fishing rubber he was throwing a crank or jerk bait. I never felt a disadvantage even though I was fishing next to one of the all time best deep water fisherman. |
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Posts: 395
Location: NW WI | Mudpuppy - 10/1/2013 4:13 PM
I personally think the job of a guide is to teach and put the guest on fish, not get a paid fishing trip for himself.
I agree with the above 100% and also agree with Mr. Worrall that you should establish this before you hire the guide.
ALSO - if I catch an obvious world record musky, I'm thumping it. Some guides who I have talked to will make me release it. I don't hire them. |
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Posts: 8834
| It's far easier to establish a pattern with another bait in the water, especially if it's just you and the guide. Even with three in the boat, any fish the guide contacts are fish you would have missed anyway. You DID, in fact. That said, I have had many instances where the guide did not fish, either because it was rough/windy and he needed to concentrate on running the boat, because we were going back on a fish and wanted me/us to have first crack at it, or because we were covering everything well enough where he'd just be washing lures. Part of "putting you on fish" is figuring out what the fish want that day. You've got a much better chance of doing that if your guide is fishing too.
Now... If the guide is fishing from the front of the boat? That will be dealt with on the first spot of the day. There have been many times where the second or third bait through is the hot ticket, but I'm paying you $400 + tip. I get first crack at the hungry ones.
There is also the matter of being able to watch how that guide works his lures, how he does figure 8's and converts fish. You can learn a lot simply by observation. And it's never a bad thing to get some practice netting someone else's fish...
As Steve said - best practice is to work it out ahead of time. If your guide is fishing the front of the boat and hitting everything before you have a chance at it? Aside from not being able to watch you and what you are doing, that's not guiding. That's buying a guide license so you can charge other people to fish out of your boat for the day.
I have to say, I hear a LOT of stories about guides fishing out of the front of the boat. Haven't seen that once.
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| I have used guides in the past to learn new techniques, so I prefer they fish and are located in the boat so I can see what they are doing. I enjoy learning new water on my own and a fun part of the endeavor. BR |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | is it legal to have a sucker out the boat while casting? |
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | A guide could have a sucker out while u cast. As long as u aren't moving.
Edited by Trophyseeker50 10/1/2013 8:46 PM
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | If I am paying $$$ to be guided I want the guide to fish with me. Kind of like asking a painter to teach you to paint but not let them paint. AND even if you are a good painter you might just learn something watching them paint. 
JMO
James
Edited by Tackle Industries 10/1/2013 9:06 PM
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Posts: 192
| You are paying for that guides wisdom i have fished one guide and still go see him once every two months to buy a bucktail or two from him but that life time of fishing is more valuable then having him put me on fish. I was preached to buy quality lures from the start and taught how to work them, but finding those fish is up to the fishermen who wants to catch them. It is the guides boat and the guides knowledge learn to listen and you will catch fish if he doesn't like you then don't count on him to put you on fish. The lesson being don't be an @#$%%%$# to the guy leading you to the fish. |
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Posts: 20254
Location: oswego, il | I think Worrall said it best. If you don't want the guide to fish, hire a guide that wont. If a guide wants you to stand on the bank and watch him with binoculars, that's up to that guide. Their business will live or die based on their decisions. |
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Posts: 458
| I like a guide to fish only if we ask him to. I would never hire a guide that insists on first bait through. I do like to see how they work a bait but I really do not want to net 3 fish for them and take time for pictures while they hold the fish. This should all be discussed up front as it is your money. The real question is should a guide hold YOUR fish for a picture?
Edited by edalz 10/1/2013 10:21 PM
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | If I hire a guide, he will fish in the back and run the trolling motor,..... How ever I will pick his mind apart,... WHY, HOW, WHEN,WHY, WHAT Lure, How do you use it ? Again, Why are we fishing this area ? Why are the fish Here ? Explain this Structure to me,... Ect....
I only hire a guide to Learn......
Jerome |
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| Mudpuppy - 10/1/2013 4:13 PM
Back in the day, the old time guides did not fish. Porter Dean, Pop Dean, Larry Ellerman, come to mind in Vilas Co. Now days it seems all guides fish with their customers. >Mudpuppy
Or our memory might be off a little on how that worked. I believe most of those guys were ROWING the boat, and that could use up both hands at times.
Or, if I remember the story correctly, the Ray Kennedy 50lber, was caught while guiding, and caught because the GUIDE was able to reach out considerably further on the cast than the two clients that were with him. There are bigger problems in musky fishing to worry about, particularly in light of how easily this one is solved, "don't hire that guy".
I would want the maximum amount of information if I was fairly new and hiring a guide, and the maximum amount of information is gathered by having the guide's bait in the water also, and having the guide modeling casting, retrieving, figure 8 techniques, target selection for casts, as you fish.
It's all good, and try not to get hung up on the little stuff.  |
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Location: sneaking out to get on the water ;-) | yes they should it will establish pattern faster and you can see how they are working the baits. Always something new to learn. |
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | I was out a week or so ago in Hayward and went out with a very respectable guide that a lot of people put in high regard. He did fish with me. BUT that being said we were dragging meat the entire time behind the boat. He three blades ALL DAY. But when he got to the boat, instead of figure 8ing he lead the bait directly to the Sucker behind the boat. So if the fish was going to hit, it would have hit the Sucker and Both myself and the other in the boat with me would be the one to have the shot at the fish, instead of of the guide boating yet another fish. (that saying the fish didn't eat his bait away from the boat)
That being said I think it is up to the client to determine what they want in a guide. I agree that it is easier to pattern fish with two baits in the water. IMPO i don't care how fish get to the net, as long as they get there. I consider myself to be unselfish when I fish and with the people I fish with.
I honestly believe that both guides fishing / not fishing have their ups and downs for both. It really comes down to personal preference on what you are looking for with your guide on the water. It is up to the client to Always make sure that you discuss the aspects of your trip before your trip. So once on the water there are no surprises. if you don't do this, I don't know if there is anything that can be complained about regardless...
Edited by FAT-SKI 10/2/2013 11:53 AM
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | IMO, no. |
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| If you're on trophy water and paying big bucks..the guide should offer suggestions and do his best to put the client on fish.This means he should handle the boat and not pick up a rod. I think it's sad when I read about a "guide" thanking the client for netting his trophy . I equate that to a big-game guide shooting the clients prize animal. I think it's ridiculous that this even needs to be addressed ! |
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Posts: 222
| Yep I think its kind of crazy if you pay $400-$500.00 a day to net a guides personal best! especially if he was fishing out of the front. Just my 2 cent. |
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| musky1969 - 10/2/2013 3:52 PM
Yep I think its kind of crazy if you pay $400-$500.00 a day to net a guides personal best! especially if he was fishing out of the front. Just my 2 cent.
If you acquired and learned the skills to do it on your own for the trip, it would seem like money well spent. What do they say, "teach a man to fish...." |
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Posts: 238
Location: Rhinelander | I assume one hires a guide because he is dialed in for a particular body of water or a technique is expected to be taught?
How is he supposed to be "dialed in" if he never fishes just tells the clients how to "do it" every guide trip?
Remember all clients are not equal in their experiance level....if a whole week is filled with entry level fisherman and the guide doesn't wet a line how in the heck will he know what is or isn't working for the next week?
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Posts: 415
| If the guide is fishing from the back of the boat the fish he catches you weren't going to catch anyways. |
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| I'm finding it kind of odd that people are upset in some kind of guide/client interaction that THEY are not a part of? I think you should interrupt their fishing and let the guide and client know how YOU feel about it.
Hmmm? Let us know how that turns out, eh?!!! |
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| Just a few more thoughts. #1 A person might hire a guide because they do not have a boat and can only get out once or twice a year, so to them, catching or seeing a fish is a priority. #2 The "learning a technique" may be a moot point because as we all know "its a different story every time you go out". #3 The guide can show his client "how to do it" maybe once or twice ,dependent on their skill level ( its not exactly rocket science) but its seldom a learning experience when they disappear to the bow and "just start fishing". #4 I actually know someone who has netted 2-50" class fish for the guide, who was just going to make a cast or two ! Fortunately they stopped paying for this person to fish and have found a professional. #5 What does it say for a guide whose clients tell someone that "he (the guide)caught a big one " and all they did was watch... It's kind of sad that people can try to justify this behavior when the client is usually the only person getting shafted. |
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Posts: 93
| I've become pretty good friends with the guides I use, and our objective is to get a fish in the boat. Honestly, I get a lot of joy out of it. We catch plenty of fish usually, and it's nice to get just one fish in the boat on a tough day. If it's the guide who lands it, that's one fish I would have otherwise not seen, and got skunked. I've also learned pretty much all my techniques from watching them, and askoing questions. I can see where some people wouldn't want them to fish, but that's their perogative. I do, however, want to bow to myself, and not have anyone else up there, and that includes the guide.
Edited by muskymagnet 10/2/2013 6:47 PM
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Posts: 127
| muskymagnet - 10/2/2013 6:42 PM
I've become pretty good friends with the guides I use, and our objective is to get a fish in the boat. Honestly, I get a lot of joy out of it. We catch plenty of fish usually, and it's nice to get just one fish in the boat on a tough day. If it's the guide who lands it, that's one fish I would have otherwise not seen, and got skunked. I've also learned pretty much all my techniques from watching them, and askoing questions. I can see where some people wouldn't want them to fish, but that's their perogative. I do, however, want to bow to myself, and not have anyone else up there, and that includes the guide.
x2
Completely agree with everything said! |
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Posts: 656
Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | Years ago we, my wife and i, hired Ted Roos up on Cass Lake for an evening of fishing. We were fairly new at the muskie game yet and I still hadn't taught my wife to handle a baitcasting reel. I was worried about backlashes. lol So Ted took us out in his boat for the night. He puts me in the bow and has my wife next to him in the back of the boat. He casts the lure out and hands the rod to her to reel it in. I thought that was a classy move on his part. Don't know if he'll ever read this or remember but if he does, Thanks Ted. That's a good guide!!
No we didn't get a fish that night but we learned a lot and had fun and that was the main thing.
Edited by fishpoop 10/2/2013 7:29 PM
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | sworrall - 10/1/2013 4:24 PM
Been beat to death here a bunch of times.
Ask the guide questions and get answers about your concerns when you hire him/her. If you don't, then it's on you. '
There isn't really anything else to say. You decide what the guide YOU hire should and should not do in advance of the trip. If you don't, it's on you.
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Posts: 566
Location: Elgin, IL | ToddM - 10/1/2013 9:17 PM
I think Worrall said it best. If you don't want the guide to fish, hire a guide that wont. If a guide wants you to stand on the bank and watch him with binoculars, that's up to that guide. Their business will live or die based on their decisions.
Does the guide supply binoculars?
And if not, would you recommend Nikon or Bushnell?
I might try that, soon. |
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Posts: 171
| Everyone should fish. |
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Posts: 999
| I agree with guides should fish as you will learn a ton by just watching how they work baits, but I dont agree with guides fishing out of the front of the boat and taking first cast into the cherry spots. Or on reefs where they know exactly where the fish will be positioned. |
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Posts: 11
| Fished with a Guide last week up on Eagle. He worked the TM/fished from the back and showed us a lot of new water. Without him we would have probably lost the lower unit. Any lure he had follows on he would immediately take off and offer to one of us. One of the best Muskie guys north of the border. Would have paid him a guide fee just to show us the southern part of Eagle given we only know the West Arm. Saw 14 in a day and boated 1. Without him in the boat we were seeing minimal #'s with less chances at an active fish. If you're fishing new water it's always good to hire someone that knows it well. Speeds the learning curve up on big lakes 10 fold. |
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Posts: 182
| Ifishskis - 10/1/2013 5:37 PM
Mudpuppy - 10/1/2013 4:13 PM
I personally think the job of a guide is to teach and put the guest on fish, not get a paid fishing trip for himself.
I agree with the above 100% and also agree with Mr. Worrall that you should establish this before you hire the guide.
ALSO - if I catch an obvious world record musky, I'm thumping it. Some guides who I have talked to will make me release it. I don't hire them.
Thumping it? Sounds short sighted. You won't hire those guides? Those are the guides that put those fish in the net! |
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| I like to see fish in the boat either way, regardless of who catches them.
If I'm on a trip with a guide and he tees into a big fish its plain excitement and entertainment, exactly what I'm paying for....
The type of people who dont like guides fishing are the same type of people who consider it a bad day if they don't boat a ton of fish or a big fish. And thats not the way it works...
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Posts: 968
Location: N.FIB | some guides fish from the front and I don`t agree with that,but there also are times I think when a guide should not fish like 3 people in the boats a little crowded,windy so he should be controlling the boat the whole time,if it`s just me I want the guide to fish and no I won`t take the rod from him if he catches a fish,but I know some people will and request that from the guide. |
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Should guides fish?