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Posts: 95
| Muskie fish being what it is, (lots of downtime between action) how do you guys know when to hang up a certain bait and go for something else?
I fish small rivers, (large creeks is a better term). It's usually long deep pools in between riffles. Some of these deep pools can go on for a mile or 2 before shallowing out. I don't think that there are as many muskies in these stretches compared to a lake so we don't exactly "move" alot of fish. Might see one or two fish a day, and maybe catch one. So given the low numbers (maybe there are more per stretch than I think?) how do you know that the top raider that you have been throwing isn't working and it's time to switch? There have been days where I threw a top raider all afternoon and into the evening and eventually caught/raised a fish on it? So given the type of water I'm fishing, would it have been better to have switched to a different bait after an hour or two of not seeing action? Or could it have been that given the small setting, the fish either were not "turned on" yet and nothing woulda caught their attention?
I'm having a hard time wording this so I hope you guys kinda sorta get the just of what I'm trying to say. |
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Posts: 1828
| My experience is probably even more limited than yours, but for me, on a small river, it seems to be more about just getting A lure past their face at the right time. Since you're never really fishing 20' deep water, high-riding baits will be seen by most fish even if they're sitting "deep". I tend to think it's more about casting at the right spots, in the right direction, at the right time.
The other day, however, we were throwing bucktails and shallow cranks with no action at all. I threw on a phantom, and in a half hour I hooked two (only landed one). BUT, shortly thereafter, we got one on blades. So again, I tend to think it was more about the timing and the cast placement.
In rivers I usually just throw a bucktail or topwater and stick with it. But then again, sometimes I don't catch anything.
One last thing. I think sometimes changing the bait gives the fisherman a little spark of energy and/or confidence, and that alone might be enough to get them a little more focused, a little more alert, and using better technique, and thus could result in a fish. Blame it on the bait itself or blame it on the psycho/physiological effects of the change, but it does seem to do something, sometimes.
Edited by jaultman 9/6/2013 2:23 PM
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Posts: 8806
| I don't think there's a hard and fast rule. I'll be more apt to keep throwing a lure all day long if I know it's a productive lure and appropriate for where/when I'm fishing.
There are times when three casts with a lure is all it takes for me to think "nope. Not today." and switch to something else.
Once you lose confidence in it, whether it's been three hours or three casts, it's time to pick a new lure.
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Posts: 723
| I baitwash. its bad, but, it works for me.
sometimes I put a bait on, cast it twice, take it off,
there's a certain progression I go thru to find what I "feel" is going to work for the day. Honestly sometimes its seriously the first cast or second with a new bait that shows me what I want to see.
People laugh, people joke, but, I get on patterns a lot quicker instead of throwing
my "confidence" go-to's all day. Yeah they'll eventually produce.
maybe not today, but tomorrow....
I am looking for what the fish want on any given day.
You never know what will trip their trigger for that particular set of conditions,
I've seen strong preference for certain baits that nobody would even think of tossing
on days when they just aren't moving.
Everyone has their own progressions, you gotta find out what works best for your style of fishing, and then apply those "tools" to your situations.
Always have something for shallow, Mid, deep, fast, medium, slow, bright, dark, neutral, loud, not so loud, rattles, no rattles, big blades, small blades, the list goes on.
Take a look at any tournament out there, there's always someone who puts up some fish. You just need to find that pattern for the day as quick as possible.
so... don't be scared to switch it up!
You'll be surprised what happens within a cast or two sometimes.
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Posts: 620
Location: Seymour, WI | This is a great question and something I really struggle with. There are usually 2-3 weeks between each of my muskie fishing trips so it seems like I'm always stuggling to figure out where the fish are and what they want. I'm never sure if the conditions have the fish in a funk or if there are just no fish in the areas that I'm fishing. I would like to see some more posts from the the guys on board as to how do they make the decision to change what they're doing and try somethng different. Seems like everytime I start to figure something out it's time to go home and then I start all over again next time. |
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Posts: 20237
Location: oswego, il | Lures are tools, I try and pick one for that situation. There are times I have the same bait on Sunday afternoon that I put on Saturday morning. If nothing changes I usually don't, I let lake, weather and seasonal conditions tell me what to throw. |
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Posts: 1023
| I always start with a fast moving lure in summer like a bucktail. If the fish don't seem to be on the move then I go to a stop and go bait like a tube or Bulldawg or glider. But if conditions feel fishy I will stick with the faster bucktail longer.
I tend to switch colors a lot because as stated - you need to have confidence in what you are throwing so I do change baits a lot if it os slow or if water color varies. |
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Posts: 252
| I know a lot of people say, pick a good lure and stick with it, but, a fishing buddy of mine cycles through lures fairly rapidly every time I fish with him. He used to outfish me about 3 to 1. Now, I usually cycle through lures also. I'm doing a lot better job of keeping up with him now fish for fish (not that we compete with each other or anything).
There are still some days when I only use about 3 lures.
What gets me is, I read on this site the top 10 lure lists and the lists always amaze me. I think some lures must work well up North, that just don't work all that well down here. I've had 4 and 5 fish days on a lure that I can't remember ever even seeing on a top 10 lure list on this site, and then, I've watched many a video of how to fish a suick thriller lure and used them for hours and the only thing I have had happen is for a big old gar to come up and chomp down on the thing... |
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Posts: 95
| Gar lol. They kill me. Down here in my part of ky they are all over the creeks. |
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Posts: 350
Location: WESTERN WI | Go with your gut, I have gone 12 hours and thrown 2 baits (only throwing the 2nd bait for 20 mins or so for a change of pace bait so I don't become hyptnotized and then gone back to bait #1 for 8 more hours), and gone 4 hours and thrown 20. I always like to think I bought all these baits for a reason, but only really fish <10% of them hard.
Edited by Got Esox? 9/6/2013 10:54 PM
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Posts: 16
| Awesome question....I have been thinking of posting the same thing. I have to agree with what several have already said...and that it is a confidence thing. Sometimes I think we throw what is supposed to be "the hot lure" too long just because it is supposed to be what they have been hitting. But I think after awhile we start to get "lazy" with the way that we are working the bait and just going through the motions. Putting on a new lure can spark a new "interest", and get you focused again. And when we are not 100% focused and ready...thats when Lungezilla will decide to hit. |
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Posts: 252
| Oh, and speaking of lure choice.... I think on some days, you have to go through your lures to see what pattern is working.
About a week ago, we were fishing Green River Lake and were having follow ins, but no takers. My son switched to a homemade blue and chrome inline spinner and immediately had two hits. I happened to be sitting down at the time to change lures, and I just so happened to switch to a blue and chrome spinner also. 
The fish nailed my spinner during a figure eight and I landed it. My son said that he didn't know if he was very excited to see me catch "his" fish. 
You can see a piece of the blue spinner material still on the fish:
Edited by KentuckyMuskie 9/8/2013 7:49 AM
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Location: Eastern Ontario | So your casting down an edge and not having much action changing lures and colours regularly. Now you catch a fish was it the new lure, new colour,new location, or timing. I firmly believe location and timing are far more important than lure or colour. |
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Posts: 171
| If the lure doesn't look and act like a fish or an extremely large aquatic insect - its time to change. |
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Posts: 8806
| bshep - 9/8/2013 11:39 AM
If the lure doesn't look and act like a fish or an extremely large aquatic insect - its time to change.
What kind of a fish does a brightly colored double 10 bucktail look or act like?
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Posts: 171
| esoxaddict - 9/8/2013 4:35 PM
bshep - 9/8/2013 11:39 AM
If the lure doesn't look and act like a fish or an extremely large aquatic insect - its time to change.
What kind of a fish does a brightly colored double 10 bucktail look or act like?
None to my knowledge. It does, however, resemble a large aquatic insect. Does it not? |
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Posts: 787
Location: Ames, Iowa | I used to bathe practically all of my baits in the course of a day, changing frequently. Dogboy made great points. I find myself more and more eschewing the bucktails and having a rod with a jerkbait like a suick or reef hawg, a rod with a 6 inch slammer on it, and my #1 rod with a topwater like a rumbler or a topraider. I make a few additions to those like a jackpot or a weedless buzzbait, but the topwater and the jerkbaits are my confidence baits, the slammer my throwback bait. |
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Location: MN | esoxaddict - 9/8/2013 4:35 PM
bshep - 9/8/2013 11:39 AM
If the lure doesn't look and act like a fish or an extremely large aquatic insect - its time to change.
What kind of a fish does a brightly colored double 10 bucktail look or act like?
I've heard Brad Hoppe say it resembles a school of bait fish. I had a pretty good laugh at that one.
I think you need to match your lure to the location, lake and structure you are going to fish. After that you just need to follow your gut. If you aren't feeling it switch. I will go through 6 baits in 15 minutes trying to find something that feels good then find the one and throw it all day. If I find a bait that is working I don't switch until it stops producing. If your buddy starts having action on something match it. I have fished with guys who were too proud to copy the bait that was having the action and they got to play net man all day. Don't let your ego get between you and a musky.
That being said I think a lot of it is timing. I fished a small river this year sun up to sun down and we had a window open up for about an hour and a half and caught, missed or moved 10 fish on 5 different baits. Pounded that area and similar areas the rest of the day and had nothing. Once they turn on I think they will eat as long as you have a bait that works well in the structure you are fishing. If they are off sometimes throwing everything but the kitchen sink doesn't help. |
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Posts: 171
| When you start seeing Dragon Flies... reach for a Cowgirl! When you start seeing frogs and water gremlins... reach for a Buzzbait! :P
Edited by bshep 9/9/2013 12:44 PM
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Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | esoxaddict - 9/6/2013 2:49 PM Once you lose confidence in it, whether it's been three hours or three casts, it's time to pick a new lure. YUP |
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Posts: 171
| Losing confidence in a lure only means you lost confidence in what you are doing. Three casts and a loss of confidence could be the reason you don't have confidence to begin with. Everything takes time. Even the best option could take hours or even days to be put in the right situation. It may be best to choose 3 different lures and rotate them every three casts than to just give up on one lure. |
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Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | Not sure who said it... but Confidence breed success and success breeds confidence. For a rookie... it may be tough at times to fish with confidence due to lack of experience (success). I"m guessing that is what lead to the question. I've been fishing muskies a LONG time... so confidence comes easier. But, when my confidence does waver... a change is often made. Sometimes that might be as extreme as to pack it in and go home. Other times it might be as subtle as a color change of the same lure. So.. when a rookie asks the question... change... or experimentation may be a good option to consider. If after 30 casts you have used 10 different lures, well... then you may want to seek some help... or take up bass fishing |
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| When I read responses to questions like this where the answer given is along the lines of "I let the fish tell me what to do" or "I let conditions tell me what to throw" I am genuinely puzzled. I make contact with an actual musky so infrequently that I can, in fact, draw no conclusions as to what they want or what they are hitting. People must be seeing a whole lot more fish than me to base such conclusions on.
The only conclusion I can legitimately draw is that on an evening when the full moon is rising simultaneously with a sunset and there is a storm front approaching, I should be on a particular spot throwing a topwater. That accounts for a couple of hours a season. Otherwise, whatever the fish are telling me to throw, somehow I am not hearing them. I fish a dark water lake where I rarely even see a follow and catch at most a fish or two a year. Am I alone in this? |
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Posts: 95
| Newbie. That was my reason for the question. Read the first line of my post. "Muskie fishing being what is is" lots of downtime"
I don't see many fish. Maybe one or 2 a day and catch one every now and then. I just don't see how there is enough activity in muskie fishing for the fish to tell you what they want. Take Sunday for instance. I fished for maybe 20 minutes and caught a small muskie ( < 20") on a 6" jake. But didn't see another fish the remaining 3 hours I was on the creek.
Only muskie in the stretch? Doubt it
Only muskie that wanted a jake that day? Maybe
Should I have switched? Idk!!! |
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| Ky221, I know that is the reason you asked the question and, for me, you hit the nail on the head. I don't get enough feedback from the fish to draw any conclusions. |
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| If you're confident or certain that fish are in the area you are fishing, and you are getting no responses from your chosen presentation, that IS feedback, IMO. Change things up. Go deeper if fishing shallower. Faster if fishing slower. Erratic if fishing a straight steady retrieve. Or vice versa. You get the picture. Experiment until you get some positive response. The option is to gut it out until the fish start feeding and learn to enjoy - rather than endure - the long periods of casting practice.
B. |
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| If there is an easy pattern going on then what bait probably matters, but in general your ability to present a lure to fish is going to matter more than what lure it is. It is a learning process, don't over think it. Just get out and have some fun while gaining experience. BR |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i'd be more apt to change tactics and use baits as a tool. tactics lead and baits/colors follow ... |
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| Thanks for the responses. I will give you some more details in case that helps. I fish a fairly shallow water weedy flowage. It is known as a "numbers" lake. I have fished deep and shallow and with many different types of baits. Over the past years I probably have had 20 or so muskies in the boat. Most have come at sunset and sunrise or when weather is approaching. In addition, I suspect that I have caught one fish multiple times. Other than those things, when, where and how I make contact with a fish seems purely random to me. I have fished for two full day trips with two different nationally known guides who I believe to be very talented and did not see a fish during those four days. We fished both on their lakes of choice and once on my home lake.
I do very much enjoy fishing, but for me it seems mostly to be a reason to stand in a quiet beautiful place, rarely disturbed by fish. |
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Posts: 8806
| jonnysled - 9/10/2013 11:09 AM
i'd be more apt to change tactics and use baits as a tool. tactics lead and baits/colors follow ...
That doesn't help someone who is just starting out gain the confidence to trust what they are throwing, or trust their decision to change it and to what.
I don't think anybody has answered the question.
The real answer is that the more you fish, in more places under different conditions at different times of the year, the less complicated the process of selecting a lure becomes. There's a time and a place for every lure in your arsenal. There's no shortcut to learning what that is, and no point where you stop evolving in that process.
When comes to those nothing days when you just don't know what to throw anymore or where or at what?
I like a sandwich and a cold beer. Maybe a swim, or a nap, or both.
The truth is that some days musky fishing just sucks, and you're wasting your time out there pounding the water to a froth.
What you mentioned about your lake - there's your answer. You know when to fish it and with what. Every lake is a little bit different.
You're putting together a giant puzzle out there, one little piece at a time. The order in which the pieces fit together is not important - what's important is the ability to see HOW the pieces fit together and why they fit together the way they do. Hiring a guide? That's good, provided you know why you are hiring them and what you hope to learn from them. Guides have fishless days too. That should tell you something.
Edited by esoxaddict 9/10/2013 11:41 AM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | a musky will eat a chicken when it's hungry. find the hungry musky.
when you are not catching fish, someone else is, guaranteed ... and it's usually where or where/when vs. what |
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Location: Contrarian Island | or just throw a double 10 99% of the time like I see most guys doing and you will never have to worry about what bait to put on. lol.
the more experience you get the more you'll know when.. for a rookie I think put on baits that are fun to work, you like, and that you think can catch fish for the structure you are working...
Edited by BNelson 9/10/2013 12:12 PM
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| Just don't become angry and bitter, you have the right idea enjoy it! |
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Posts: 171
| I love pounding water to a froth. Especially when there are fish in the lake.
Edited by bshep 9/10/2013 1:13 PM
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Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | jonnysled - 9/10/2013 12:06 PM a musky will eat a chicken when it's hungry. find the hungry musky. when you are not catching fish, someone else is, guaranteed ... and it's usually where or where/when vs. what John, why do you always beat around the bush? I think what John is saying is that changing lures may not always your best bet to get a bite. If you are not getting action.... try a different time to fish that spot... or look for a new spot/location. Since you usually want to continue fishing right NOW... that means make a location change as your first change-up. However, I know 123 has his game dialed in... and he offers up some very good options that don't require a location change. In Fisherman's (F)ish + (L)ocation + (P)resentation = success forumula is pretty rock solid. Learn the biology of the fish... which will give you knowledge of where to look for them... and then adjust your presentation as needed to match that location/situation. If you are confident in F and L... then start switching baits until you obtain some success... which will bring back your confidence. Good luck |
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Posts: 171
| You need to fish everywhere. Fish the entire body of water. Fish have the ability to swim wherever they want. They are not always near some sort of element of form of life. |
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Posts: 656
Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | I'm going to go back to the old basics of Buck Perry when it comes to lure selection and in this it might give you some guidelines for when to change or what to throw.
Buck used to say that there are 2 controls and 3 aids in lure selection for a fishing situation. The 2 controls being more important than the 3 aids. The 2 controls are; depth and speed. The 3 aids are; size, action, color. We must always control the depth and the speed our lures are running at in order to trigger fish. If you're using a crankbait that runs 20 feet deep in 2 feet of water you're not going to catch fish. If you use a surface lure and the fish are belly to the bottom in 30 feet depths you're not going to catch fish. Ok, so that is rather obvious and over simplified but think about the deeper truth there. The first thing you want to consider in your lure selection is the depth of water you're fishing. Pick a bait that works well at those depths, be they shallow, medium, or deep, in the area you are fishing.
Speed, some lures run fast and some slow. You can choose what lures to throw based upon their speed design. Some bucktails are burners and others run slower. Same for any lure category. So once you have a lure picked out that will run at the depth (control) of the area being fished your next job is to pick lures that will run at the speeds you want to fish at based on weather and water and cover conditions. As is discussed many times with partners fishing, one will run a fast bait and the other a slow bait to check speed controls.
So if you start fishing with a bait and wonder if you should switch think about your depth and speed controls first. Are you already using a bait that fishes well under your conditions that controls your depth and speed of presentation? If you consider changing at this point whatever you switch to should also allow you to control your depth and speed under those conditions.
Now is where the "aids" come into play. Action (vibration), size, and color. Here is where you start to experiment more while still controlling your depth and speed of presentation. This is the area that most anglers get confused on and mistake the reason they're catching or not catching a fish, usually. Much has been written and discussed about color, size, and action of lures. Books and videos are filled with discussion of these things but they're only aids, not controls. If what you're using isn't working, then pick a lure that still gives you depth and speed controls but changes one or more of the "aids" Experiment with colors, sizes, actions/vibrations of the baits. Depth and speed controls being equal sometimes one color will be hot and everything else not. Sometimes the double 10's bucktails with the big vibration will be hot but other times a single willowleaf blade bucktail will be better due to a difference in vibration/action. And so on.
So if you're losing confidence in your baits you're throwing and wonder if you should change or what to change to, then remember depth and speed controls first and change within those parameters first, pick a lure that runs faster or slower, deeper or shallower. Then work on changing baits based upon, size, color, vibration/action.
Hope this helps.
Edited by fishpoop 9/11/2013 12:35 AM
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