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Posts: 37
Location: Freedom, WI | People always say that the Revo Toro Winch is slow becuase it has 4.6:1 gear ratio. People also say the Shimano Cardiff 400a is a good all around reel. It's gear ratio is 5.2:1. They both bring in 22" of line per turn of the handle though. The Calcutta 400b is 5.0:1 and its line retrieve is 24". Could someone explain to me why people consider the Revo Toro Winch slow, but when it brings in only a little bit less or the same amount of line per crank than reels considered to be good all around reels? |
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Location: Eagan, MN | You understand something that a lot of people don't. Inches of line per crank is the only metric that matters. |
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| All 3 of those reels are "slow" reels. Until you get above 30" per crank your really not going fast in my opinion. |
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Location: Freedom, WI | I thought from what others have said that:
under 5.0:1 = slow
5.0:1 - 5.5:1 = in between
over 6.0:1 = high speed
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Location: Freedom, WI | cast10K - 9/5/2013 7:19 PM
You understand something that a lot of people don't. Inches of line per crank is the only metric that matters.
Yeah, I was confused when people were judging the speed of a reel solely on the gear ratio, when there are more factors than just that, like spool size and depth. The speed should really be determined on how much line it takes in per crank, and not on the gear ratio IMO.
But then people go and say that can't reel fast enough with a Revo Toro Winch because it 4.6:1 which confuses me. Is it just in their head or what? |
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| The difference between gear ratio and inches of line per turn helps determine how powerful a reel is...getting alot of line with a high ratio reel tends to me it will be harder for you to turn the handle comfortably at that speed. People like the winch for its power, people hate the winch for it's line pickup. |
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Location: Freedom, WI | VonBraun - 9/5/2013 9:14 PM
People like the winch for its power, people hate the winch for it's line pickup.
Thats what I'm confused about. Doesn't the winch pickup the same amount of line per crank as a reel thats considered to be in-between? |
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Posts: 432
Location: Eagan, MN | Respectfully disagree VB, but that's simply not accurate and is a common misconception. The spool can just be viewed as an additional gear, and would affect the final drive ratio. Just as putting different diameter tires on a car will affect it's power, the same thing applies with spools. |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | If you want to know if a reel is fast or not, you need to look at the inches per turn. Generally a higher gear ratio equals a higher inches per turn. However there will always be exceptions to a rule. The Tranx PG has a 4.6:1 gear ratio but brings in 30" per turn. By comparison, the Revo NACL needs a 6.4:1 gear ratio to bring in 30" per turn. So both reels will bring in the same line but it should be easier with the Tranx. |
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| cast10K - 9/5/2013 10:18 PM
Respectfully disagree VB, but that's simply not accurate and is a common misconception. The spool can just be viewed as an additional gear, and would affect the final drive ratio. Just as putting different diameter tires on a car will affect it's power, the same thing applies with spools. obviously, but that is now how they are commonly described, dami explains it well. The reason the tranx PG his "fast" and powerful is the low gear ratio (4.6-1) and the high line pickup (30 inches). |
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Location: Freedom, WI | dami0101 - 9/5/2013 10:32 PM
If you want to know if a reel is fast or not, you need to look at the inches per turn. Generally a higher gear ratio equals a higher inches per turn. However there will always be exceptions to a rule. The Tranx PG has a 4.6:1 gear ratio but brings in 30" per turn. By comparison, the Revo NACL needs a 6.4:1 gear ratio to bring in 30" per turn. So both reels will bring in the same line but it should be easier with the Tranx.
Would it really? Like what cast10K said, the spool is just another gear, and the final ratio including the spool would be the same wouldn't it? |
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Posts: 173
| no...the ratio doesn't change. the ratio describes the number of times the spool turns per handle turn. The reason the Tranx has the higher line pickup is the bigger spool. The bigger spool doesn't change the turn ratio...it changes the force equation. The Tranx is just a powerful reel all around, the big power handle and the smaller gear ratio makes pulling big bucktails easier but it out does the winch because it still had a "high" line pickup per turn. |
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| cast10K - 9/5/2013 10:18 PM
Respectfully disagree VB, but that's simply not accurate and is a common misconception. The spool can just be viewed as an additional gear, and would affect the final drive ratio. Just as putting different diameter tires on a car will affect it's power, the same thing applies with spools.
Are you saying all reels that picks up xx" per crank require same effort regardless of ratio? |
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| SixBowls - 9/6/2013 6:00 AM
Are you saying all reels that picks up xx" per crank require same effort regardless of ratio?
Yes and No. If given 2 reels that have the same IPT, They would need to have the same handle length. Because if one reel had a handle twice as long as the other, that reel would "feel" like it was easier to turn. The effort would be easier by 1/2 (longer handle reel) but you would need to put forth that easier effort for twice the circumference per crank when comparing to the shorter crank handled reel. Which its harder to maintain rpm of the crank handle with a large crank handle.
If you want to dig deeper, look at spool capacity. If the one reel has a wide shallow spool and the other reel has a narrow deep spool. For more info on this here a link of a post I replied to explaining this better. Spool Dia. changes does change when you cast and retrieve...
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=88...
Last thing to look at is the condition of your reel, I know guy who crank down the cast control knob and its so hard to turn their reel because they think that is the best way to set up the reel. Even after I show them how to set it up properly.
So If given everything was equal the effort would be the same between the two reels. Remember you can change everything in the equation of the ITP equation, (even gear ration on some reels) To make the reel "feel" and preform how you like it. |
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Location: Eagan, MN | SixBowls - 9/6/2013 5:00 AM
Are you saying all reels that picks up xx" per crank require same effort regardless of ratio?
I'm saying that if they DON'T require the same effort, it ISN'T because of gear ratio. Anzomcik breaks it down in more detail, and sums it up nicely. |
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| Thanks gentlemen. Good stuff. |
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| cast10KThe spool can just be viewed as an additional gear, and would affect the final drive ratio. Just as putting different diameter tires on a car will affect it's power, the same thing applies with spools.
This reminds me of a question I've got about the Tranx-- I don't have either PG or HG, but I've been watching the debate over using big blades. Some like the PG because they're fine with 30 IPT and like the lower energy needed to turn handle. Others like the HG because they want the faster 43" IPT and willing to put more effort into cranking.
Here is my questino: If you take the HG and only put enough line on the spool so that you got 30 IPT -- if you closed your eyes well reeling would it feel identical to the PG with a full spool???
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Location: Yahara River Chain | Guest - 9/6/2013 12:10 PM
Here is my questino: If you take the HG and only put enough line on the spool so that you got 30 IPT -- if you closed your eyes well reeling would it feel identical to the PG with a full spool???
Better specify a lure. They might crank easily for double 8s, but totally different case throwing DC13s. |
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Location: Minnesota | I have both Tranx PG and HG both great reels each for a purpose . the PG is on a 9 foot Predator Heavy for blades the HG is on a 9 foot 8n inch Predator XX Heavy use this for pounders. both great reels each has a purpose. on the other hand I used my pounder set up for blades it smokes dubbel 8s with no problems 13 on the other hand it is harder. the PG you have to turn faster but will turn 13s very easy. best thing is find some one who has a reel you like whether its a Tranx ,Reveo and buy what works for you. I only have Shimano reels so I cant say any thing good or bad with other reels. |
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Location: Eagan, MN | Guest - Yes. |
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| Guest - 9/6/2013 12:10 PM
cast10KThe spool can just be viewed as an additional gear, and would affect the final drive ratio. Just as putting different diameter tires on a car will affect it's power, the same thing applies with spools. This reminds me of a question I've got about the Tranx-- I don't have either PG or HG, but I've been watching the debate over using big blades. Some like the PG because they're fine with 30 IPT and like the lower energy needed to turn handle. Others like the HG because they want the faster 43" IPT and willing to put more effort into cranking. Here is my questino: If you take the HG and only put enough line on the spool so that you got 30 IPT -- if you closed your eyes well reeling would it feel identical to the PG with a full spool???
It all made sense to me until you posed this question. I'm going to say yes based on how I read the answers from cast10k and anzomcik. 30" per turn with same size handle equals same effort. I hope they answer. |
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| Guest - 9/6/2013 12:10 PM cast10KThe spool can just be viewed as an additional gear, and would affect the final drive ratio. Just as putting different diameter tires on a car will affect it's power, the same thing applies with spools. This reminds me of a question I've got about the Tranx-- I don't have either PG or HG, but I've been watching the debate over using big blades. Some like the PG because they're fine with 30 IPT and like the lower energy needed to turn handle. Others like the HG because they want the faster 43" IPT and willing to put more effort into cranking. Here is my questino: If you take the HG and only put enough line on the spool so that you got 30 IPT -- if you closed your eyes well reeling would it feel identical to the PG with a full spool??? You sir, are one intelligent guest! The answer is yes. Also, the static drag force would be stronger and the reel would cast better.
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | tswoboda - 9/6/2013 2:26 PM
Guest - 9/6/2013 12:10 PM cast10KThe spool can just be viewed as an additional gear, and would affect the final drive ratio. Just as putting different diameter tires on a car will affect it's power, the same thing applies with spools. This reminds me of a question I've got about the Tranx-- I don't have either PG or HG, but I've been watching the debate over using big blades. Some like the PG because they're fine with 30 IPT and like the lower energy needed to turn handle. Others like the HG because they want the faster 43" IPT and willing to put more effort into cranking. Here is my questino: If you take the HG and only put enough line on the spool so that you got 30 IPT -- if you closed your eyes well reeling would it feel identical to the PG with a full spool??? You sir, are one intelligent guest! The answer is yes. Also, the static drag force would be stronger and the reel would cast better.
How would it be yes? Making spool diameter smaller in order to bring in less inches per crank shouldn't make it easier. Isn't the idea that the larger the spool diameter the easier it feels to bring something in? |
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| tswoboda - 9/6/2013 2:26 PM
Guest - 9/6/2013 12:10 PM cast10KThe spool can just be viewed as an additional gear, and would affect the final drive ratio. Just as putting different diameter tires on a car will affect it's power, the same thing applies with spools. This reminds me of a question I've got about the Tranx-- I don't have either PG or HG, but I've been watching the debate over using big blades. Some like the PG because they're fine with 30 IPT and like the lower energy needed to turn handle. Others like the HG because they want the faster 43" IPT and willing to put more effort into cranking. Here is my questino: If you take the HG and only put enough line on the spool so that you got 30 IPT -- if you closed your eyes well reeling would it feel identical to the PG with a full spool??? You sir, are one intelligent guest! The answer is yes. Also, the static drag force would be stronger and the reel would cast better.
I think you mean the kinetic drag force would be less, and that you mean it would be less for the one with the fuller spool.
And speaking of energy losses, in theory, the PG with the full spool would turn easier for that 30"/turn than would the partially-full HG. |
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| jaultman - 9/6/2013 2:35 PM tswoboda - 9/6/2013 2:26 PM Guest - 9/6/2013 12:10 PM cast10KThe spool can just be viewed as an additional gear, and would affect the final drive ratio. Just as putting different diameter tires on a car will affect it's power, the same thing applies with spools. This reminds me of a question I've got about the Tranx-- I don't have either PG or HG, but I've been watching the debate over using big blades. Some like the PG because they're fine with 30 IPT and like the lower energy needed to turn handle. Others like the HG because they want the faster 43" IPT and willing to put more effort into cranking. Here is my questino: If you take the HG and only put enough line on the spool so that you got 30 IPT -- if you closed your eyes well reeling would it feel identical to the PG with a full spool??? You sir, are one intelligent guest! The answer is yes. Also, the static drag force would be stronger and the reel would cast better.
I think you mean the kinetic drag force would be less, and that you mean it would be less for the one with the fuller spool. And speaking of energy losses, in theory, the PG with the full spool would turn easier for that 30"/turn than would the partially-full HG. No I meant static, think of a hookset. Takes more force to start peeling drag than once the drag has already started letting line out. It could very well be kinetic as well and most likely is.
And as far as "energy losses" being greater on the partially-full HG, I agree with that and you make a good point. "Energy losses" being due to friction of the handle, spool, and gears having to turn more times to pull the same amount of line. However with a well built machine like a Tranx, I believe those losses to be negligible when compared to the resistance of a DCG. So now that we know theoretically it will take more energy to pull blades with a partially full HG than a full PG, the question becomes is that difference actually noticeable? My guess is no but until field testing I cannot be sure.
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| The interesting part to me in this discussion is you could buy a HG and an extra spool and basically get both reels with some manipulation for the price of one...interesting thought. |
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Posts: 531
| If you have a HG and PG each on the same rod, and the PG full spooled, and the HG spooled to lets say 1/2 (that's a number to get the same IPT, I do not know the empty spool dia, so knowing how much line is needed is a guess on my part.)
The effort is this example would be the same, more or less. Because with a half full spool (remember its a guess for the sake of the example) you will loose Dia of that spool quicker than a full spool on a cast. So at the end of your cast it would be easier in comparison (how much? it could be noticble, but I doubt it) To when the bait is near the boat.
Also with the half spool you may notice a slight decrease is casting distance, keep in mine the cast works on the energy you put into the cast. Once your thumb leaves the spool it is coasting on the initial energy. So with a smaller spool Dia. in this example the spool will be spinning at a higher RPM and needs to maintain that through out the cast. So it may be noticble.
Also since the spool dia is smaller you will have a drag that is stronger, you lose some fluidness with the drag but you will have a higher # of drag. This is because you have decreased the leverage of the spool since the distance from center is shorter.
When you break down the whole system a fishing reel isn't an easy equation. But IMHO for a person who is on the fence about a tranx I would go HG all the way (I own a HG, love it use it for everything full spool to) Because it is an expensive reel I wanted a reel that can do something no other reel can with a level wind, and the that's 43 IPT. If I need it I can make it crawl by removing some line.
To answer the question, if you spooled a HG to match the speed of a PG they would reel with the same effort, give or take to account for the changes I mentioned. |
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| dami0101 - 9/6/2013 2:33 PM
Making spool diameter smaller in order to bring in less inches per crank shouldn't make it easier. Isn't the idea that the larger the spool diameter the easier it feels to bring something in?
I'm a million miles from an engineer, but:
A larger spool is required for retrieving larger amounts of line, but it doesn't alone make that retrieval easier or harder. think of the spool itself as a gear. The spool is one of the three main variables in the equation--all moving circles:
handle (turns outside the reel, driving the main shaft) -- basically a lever, longer it is the more power it gives, but it's got to travel farther on it's circumvential (?) movement
main gear (turns inside the reel with teeth connecting/converting handle's power to turning spool at a ratio of 4.1: , 5.3:1 ect)
spool (turns inside the reel, pulling/winding line)
any one of these 3 changes and it changes the power needed to pull X line at X speed
Think of a bicycle: you are familiar with effort needed to crank the peddle to turn the back wheel. Turning the back wheel once moves you X distance (= IPT). Imagine you replaced back wheel with something 5 foot diamter. You instinctively realize it would be harder to crank. That's the same "harder to crank" as with a reel with a larger diameter spool. If you could turn the peddles, you'd roll farther per crank (IPT).
So reducing level of line the the Tranx spool is like putting a smaller rear tire on your bike.
I see people discussing which handle (length) to put on their Tranx to achieve the balance they desire between power input and retrieve speed output. Changing the line level in the spool is directly comparable.
Changing the main gear isn't as easy as the handle or the spool level. TWo choices: PG gears or HG gears
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| anzomcik - 9/6/2013 4:29 PM
Also since the spool dia is smaller you will have a drag that is stronger, you lose some fluidness with the drag but you will have a higher # of drag. This is because you have decreased the leverage of the spool since the distance from center is shorter.
In terms of the practical on-th-water effects of fishing an HG with significantly less than full spool, this seems like it would be a big one. |
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Location: Eagan, MN | The last three posts pretty much nailed it. |
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Location: Hayward, WI | Some good info here from a few posters. This has come up before and there's always confusion.
The ONLY thing that matters is line per crank. Gear ratio just has an effect on how much line is brought in based on the spool size. 2 reels that have the same inches per crank can FEEL different based on handle length and design. The "work" is the same, just different, where you are moving you hand more, but with less effort on a longer handle vs less movement, but harder to turn a shorter handle.
In general, the longer handle with more movement seems to make things feel easier, but might take a little bit away from max speed compared to feeling more resistance but turning a shorter handle faster due to less movement.
Tucker
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Gear Ratio vs Recovery per Turn