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| This should probably be on the research board but it scares me to go there. Way too much thinking going on in there for me so I put it here.
I was at Guides Choice yesterday having a cup of coffee wathing the fish in the tank. The muskies and big walleyes were right on the top and very active. The small pike, big bass, big blue gills and big crappies were in the deeper water. I figured with the muskies and big walleyes right on top that they would be very active.
I bought 4 shiners and threw them in the tank one by one. Each shiner quickly swam past past all the muskies, and big walleyes. They then swam deeper and the big bass chased them around until finally they would catch the shiner. This took the bass quite awhile.
Upon seeing this my nephew asked "why don't the muskies chase them" I told him that I didn't think that they were in a feeding mood. A logical observation or so I thought.
Then I bought 4 more shiners, but before I placed them in the tank, I broke the tail off of each one.
3 out of 4 of those shiners were eaten by muskies and the 4th was eaten by a giant Walleye before a musky could grab it.
I found it very interesting that the muskies did not even move a muscle for the fast moving uninjured shiners. However, they were like swarming bees on the 4 that were injured.
I have drawn several conclusions from this. What do you guys think.
John
Oneida Esox Guide Service
www.oneidesox.com |
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Posts: 2752
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | John- A great observation. This is something I have been doing with my shiners when icefishing for Pike for over 20 years. I even selectively clip 1/2 the tail & other fins to get erratic behavior from the shiner. A pair of miniture diagonal pliers or scissors works the best vs using a knife. Seems like ESOX species are strongly triggered by erratic bait behavior. Plus, it also slows the shiner's prey avoidance reflex.
This type of ancedotal information has also been pointed out by ToddM, jlong & others here on MuskieFIRST, i.e., erratic presentations are an extremely strong strike trigger for Muskies. Yours is the first hard verification, i.e., direct observation between responses to uninjured shiner & injured shiner. Thanks!
I rarely use a straight retrieve, even when fishing with bucktails.
Al Warner
http://www.thenethouse.com
www.welcometothechumbucket.com
Edited by ESOX Maniac 2/2/2003 11:33 AM
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Posts: 1916
Location: Greenfield, WI | This observation makes sense. If the clear coat wasn't so tough on the Slammer Crankbaits, I would try to break part of the tail off, for the
ultimate bait!LOL!
I have seen big fish react to fish which were injured by weed cuting operations on Pewaukee Lake. I couldn't get them to hit a bait but they sure found the injured panfish. |
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Posts: 1936
Location: Eau Claire, WI | Does it apeal to visual stimulation feeding instinct?
Does the vibration stimulate the lateral line more or in a way to promote a strike?
Or is it the "Buffalo theory" by Cliff Claven as described in an episode of Cheers..? 
In part this is why the "change up" is an important part of your retrieve.
Where are the yellow smiley faces...!!!!!! |
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Posts: 188
Location: Madison, WI | They are picking off the weak / sick ones.. easier meals. If memory serves me, this is how SpongeBob met up with Mrs. Bob (I would have said Mrs. Sponge but that name brings up a whole different conversation - one that belongs in the research part of this site as well). I think the message is clear here... muskies are good for a fishery and bass are not. Craig |
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Location: oswego, il | This is precisely why when the season starts, I will break my arm. That should get the fish in the mood. |
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Posts: 257
Location: Madison, WI | Oneida,
Thanks for sharing this extremely interesting obsevation. Here is what I conclude...
It's time to start throwing all those Triple D's I bought at the Chicago Show!!! 
Ok, the cabin fever is starting to set in, but I'm somewhat serious about the Triple D part. I seem to recall an In-Fisherman article talking about how a variety of research experiments had concluded that predator species will almost always target prey which is "significantly different" (i.e. weaker or more vulnerable) than the surrounding prey. Therefore, I think baits which are designed to be worked erratically (jerkbaits, gliders, twitch baits, Triple D) may have a built in advantage over "straight retrieve" baits, since the predator detects no "significant difference", or weakness in the straight retrieved bait. (This may explain why I've never really done as well with bucktails.
I also think that weakness on the part of one shiner can be detected by other shiners, and that this may lead to being ostracized from the school. I was recently watching a Discovery Channel show on how forage fish use the "schooling" behavior as a defense mechanism. When the school is attacked, the fish scatter in unison, creating somewhat of an optical illusion. This would make it difficult for the predator fish to target any one specific prey fish. And if a prey fish has its fin clipped it can't keep up with the rest of the school. So I think that in an actual lake situation, the isolation from the school also increases vulnerability. Similar to how lions and cheetahs attack the one loner gazelle (OK, I admit I watch way too much Discovery Channel and I relate it to musky fishing, for example... Why do alligators always crawl up onto a warm sand beach in order to digest their food? And how does this relate to the "shallow digestion theory" for muskies? Do muskies feed deep and digest shallow? Alligators do.)
Ok I'm rambling now, but I would conclude the following...
1. Erratic retrieve baits are better
2. "Matching the hatch" might be counterproductive
Just my long-winded 2 cents worth,
"Jackpot" John Schroeder
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| You are right on target Craig! Spongette found me "tailess" and unable to escape; she took me in, fed and watered me, nursed me back to semi vibrant health...now she is involved in personal "research therapy" as to just why she swam off w/ me, and the repercussions following that decision she made 14 years and 7 months ago...had she taken the advice of me inlaws, I'd be floating on an outgoing tide...;)
On a more serious note, I saw the show JPJ spoke of, and it was a gooder one; the bigger rockfish often hang out under the baitfish school as the smaller predators herd/slash, and as the injured bait flutters down, the biggies snatch them up.
*Helpful Hint: for you single guys out there, be wary of women who appear "injured", I had a 1 armed chick beat the stuffings out of me years ago when I approached her on the beach; what you view as an easy meal may just well turn out to be more than you can handle! Weaker does not mean stupider.....:o |
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| Onieda:
I would expect next fall that you will start experimenting with your suckers and trimming your tails. I started trimming all tails on big sucker many year ago when fishing with NWILD for northern on the hard water. Since then when ever I am ice fishing I always clip the tail fin, minnow stay more active trying to stay upright. I applied the same thing for my suckers for musky, just don't remove to much!
Good luck,
Troyz |
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Location: oswego, il | You can do the same thing with a crawdad. You todd it in a tank and it will be eaten before it hits bottom. The bass instinctively knows it's defenseless untill it reaches bottom. |
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| Lots of good observations and some of the same ones that I had.
I don't know what to make of this observation and waited to put this out here but here goes.
The unwounded shiners looked a lot more like a straight crank bait, while the wounded ones looked much more like a jointed crankbait???????
Does that mean that a straight crankbait would be much more productive if twitched, while a jointed could be straight cranked???? God bless.
John |
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Interesting observation