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Location: Kansas City BBQ Capitol of the world | I have heard a two things on how a Muskie looks at his world.
The first one was that a Muskies eyes are positioned high on their head that allows him to see forward and above to the top of the water column. And then I have heard their eyes are on the sides of their heads and they see more horizontal.
I have had many in a figure 8 but just havnt got a hook up yet. Would I need to keep the bait right in front of his face at 45 or 90 degrees or come over his head with the same? I think I am doing both in case they see more "up" but I just havn't perfected that science.
What do you know about Muskie vision and how do you go about your figure 8's?
Thanks,
Ron
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| come over the head.........as I have commented in the past.......
no expert here.....however, most of the muskies I've caught doing figure 8's have been when I jerk the lure back over the muskie's head at the top of the 8 (fish's head pointed away from boat). If the fish is close, I'll do it the very first opportunity. Sometimes in the first turn of a figure 8.
If a fish is interested at all, I think it will nip at the lure when it is brought back over it's head.
I use to think I should wait until I tried a couple of full figure 8's before trying it. Now, I think the fish might lose interest or nip at it and miss. I plan on jerking the bait back over the muskie's head the first opportunity before I screw up or the fish loses interests.
I believe this method also offers greater hooking power as the fish reaches up to grab the lure it will crash down and away from the boat even if it just nips at the bait.
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Out in front and over the head. Not directly over the head. I don't think a fish can physically move in that direction. I think the key is more yo get the fish's attention fully on the bait and not its surroundings. That means manipulating the bait so it looks like it's getting away, but it's still easily catchable by the fish. To me, if the fish thinks it's getting away, then it is more focused on the bait rather than the boat or you. Also, I don't think it has a lot to do with the fish seeing the bait or not. If it's above or in front, it can see it.
Edited by Kirby Budrow 4/17/2013 9:41 PM
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| I think they just see like we do. They see whats in front of them. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Don't forget about their lateral line system. While they might not be able to see objects in certain areas, my suspicion is that they are able to then use their lateral line system to keep tracking prey in those regions. So in a practical sense, if the prey object is not inside their radius of turn--they'll be on it. If they can turn on it, they'll have it. I think their lateral line system is so well-developed that it's practically an extension of their eyes. So if the lure has enough vibration to it and is outside their minimum radius of turn, it's game over...
TB |
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| Not sure if this has been said yet but I read this on here a while ago and it really changed the number of takers I get. Start preparing for the 8 while the lure is still fairly far away from the boat, then when you go into the 8 keep the bait deep but bring it up while you are doing a wide turn. Usually they hit it as soon as you start to turn the bait and bring it to the surface. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | I know a guy who caught a blind muskie on the figure 8, which coincides with the "feel" theory and kind of gets away from sight. Think of your moving lure as a blur to a muskies vision because in essense, because that's what it really is.. Now we could lead into discussion over detailed paint jobs on lures selling us more than the fish we're after, but I digress. Ever been in a plane and flew through another planes wake? The plane jumps and the pilot comes over the intercom to say, "Sorry for the bump, folks, we just flew through another planes wake." Lures displace water as they move through the water and leave an invisible "wake" or footprints behind them. It's those footprints that even a blind musky could follow. So I guess what I'm getting at is don't focus too much attention on keeping the lure in the visible area of the fish so much as you focus your attention on leading her eys down on the inside turns and higher on the outside because to me, their already locked on to what that lure is doing and where it is in most instances, I just don't want her to see my silhuouette above her as she chases.
Edited by Sam Ubl 4/18/2013 8:15 AM
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Posts: 456
Location: Kansas City BBQ Capitol of the world | I never thought about blind Muskies before and that lateral line and vibration goes right along with what Sam was saying. Good stuff.
It makes sense to keep the nose down on the inside turns as well. I thought I was doing that but practice makes perfect and will get many more shots.
Thanks,
Ron
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Location: Green Bay, WI | In my experience, although I've never gotten to figure-8 a SUPER large fish (45-50" is probably max...), it definitely pays to keep the lure in the proper "plane" to where the fish is. By that I mean at the same relative depth. The larger the fish, the larger the pattern--or even make it an oval as has been said here before. Maybe some day I'll get to try this out on a 50-55" fish, but back in the BBK (Before Bad Knees) days when I was doing most of my casting, we just didn't see that many big fish. But even with 45-47" fish, you can pretty easily tell when the fish is having a hard time keeping up with the lure.
But I still wouldn't think that their vision would have too much to do with this though, given how well-developed the lateral line system is. Sure vision helps, but when blind fish can get a lure on the -8, that should tell you something...
TB |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Muskies are 'sight feeders'. Final analysis, that is one of the strongest triggers in strike response as well. Add visibility as it is in most waters, and the fact they are myopic, and you have reality that your lure isn't easy to see until the fish gets pretty close.
Muskies generally speaking look up/forward all the time. They don't see down real well at all.
The position of the eyes is totally different than ours. Ours are front and center, the Muskie's are side of the head positioned at the top and back a considerable distance from the mouth.
The placement of the muskie's eyes causes a depth perception problem when an item is visible on one side of the fish, not the front, which is why they will turn on a dime to try to position the item of interest in the stereoscopic FOV. Stereoscopic vision begins in an X from the eyes on both sides across the side of the 'nose' imagine the fish's nose in the X lines proceeding past the fish on both sides of the X, the closer the lure to the fish, the narrower the actual FOV down to a blind spot area off the nose. The larger the fish, the larger 'blind spot' in front of the nose. Think about that on the 8, and why an 8 is so effective IF the lure is far enough in front of the fish to be seen well. If you figure 8 muskies alot, you have seen them react to seeing/not seeing a bait right off the nose.
Muskies are also nearsighted as mentioned above, and very sensitive to direct light. They can see color, when it's available to see and if the time of day is correct. Some feel they see in the UV spectrum as well. I agree with that.
X
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Here's an interesting paper on the study of vision and the lateral line system that I had forgotten about. I found it back in 2006, and posted a link to it in a discussion thread on another musky board. You can get the full paper here for free:
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/204/6/1207.full.pdf+html
The gist of the paper is that the two sensory modalities (vision and lateral line) are complementary and each is important in different phases of the stalk/strike sequence. But obviously they can adapt.
Anyway, it's an interesting paper--and very relevant to this discussion.
TB
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Location: Kansas City BBQ Capitol of the world | X Steve, that's cool on the FOV. Kind of a Musky signature that means something.
^
And the PDF is interesting thanks Tom. I am finding out exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread on vision and 8 techniques.
Good stuff.
Ron
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| Mr. Worral's response to the question was clearly stated and exactly to the point. His description about vision patterns and perception right on the money.
Watch fish in lakes and rearing ponds to see how they see things etc.
Kudo's to Mr. Worral great answer.
Scott M. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I agree Scott--he gave a very good answer. I also wonder if that explains why these underwater videos show the musky almost lose track of a lure (and then bump into it) that they are following very closely?
Don Schwartz had a whole bunch of footage he showed me a few years back. There were many clips that showed fish following various lures, often right at the back of the lure. From recollection, they would often almost over-run the lure, or coast into it. So maybe it was simply too close for stereoscopic vision, and they lose depth perception and coast into the lure? It was pretty interesting to watch--and often they would do it with the prop on the trolling motor (kicker) as well! I never saw them hit the prop, but they would bump the lure on occasion.
Very interesting stuff. Makes me want to go out an figure-8 some muskies again, just to experiment!
TB |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Tom, that's one very good reason why a figure eight works when done well. The lure will cross the stereoscopic FOV at least 4 times as the fish follows the lure and it hits a hard turn...when they lose it for a second then see it again, it's another pretty strong stimulus. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | sworrall - 4/20/2013 8:16 AM
Tom, that's one very good reason why a figure eight works when done well. The lure will cross the stereoscopic FOV at least 4 times as the fish follows the lure and it hits a hard turn...when they lose it for a second then see it again, it's another pretty strong stimulus.
Makes sense to me. I need to re-read that paper and dissect their results again today because they are pretty interesting. I was also surprised to read how easy it was for them to render the lateral line system inoperative. The one thing I wondered about though, is how water clarity would factor into their results. So could they repeat those results with varying degrees of clarity?
One thing is for sure though--these fish are fascinating creatures!
TB |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Here's a YouTube video from Bob Mehsikomer that is pretty relevant to this thread, with basic detail on the anatomy and physiology of the sensory system of the muskellunge. If you can get past the blatant advertisement of his sponsors' lures, it actually has some very good information. While I don't necessarily agree with every scientific detail he says, it's still worth a view if you've got an extra half-hour--as he does a pretty good job all-in-all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=ggfDKFhO820&feature=endscreen
TB |
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Location: Kansas City BBQ Capitol of the world | Good video with allot of information.
Thanks Tom.
Ron |
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Muskie vision and figure 8's