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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | I'm getting ahead of myself here as I have not even bought the wood to start making baits but I've wondered about this question for a while:
What does it take to make a trolling bait "wander" where they randomly kick left/right every now and then? I imagine it's a bait on the edge of running true vs blowing out, but some seem to wander at many different speeds.
Is there a way to achieve this on purpose?
Tucker |
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Location: Apollo, PA | Thats a great question........ some things i've noticed are blunt headed baits, lip angles definitely, and line tie positions........ i am not a maker, but look forward to reading this thread. lol |
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| I think that’s going to be a tough question to answer (for me at least). My baits wander, but it is not something I consciously designed into them. I am of the opinion that all baits wander, it’s just a matter of boat speed. If you have a balanced well-built bait, at a certain speed it will begin to wander back and forth wider and wider with additional speed until it blows out. As the bait “climbs” out to one side it will lose its bite then “fall off” and go to the other side. Like you said in your post it’s a matter of everything, Lip size and angle, line tie, bait shape, weight placement, etc…
An unbalanced bait will go to only one side and then blow out.
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Posts: 1202
Location: Money, PA | Its in the lips...lengths, angles and shapes of lips will all play roles in how the bait wanders/walks. Line ties do make somewhat of a difference, as do all your other factors, such as weight, shape and balance....However, IMHO, the lip is the primary factor. Theres certainly a fine line in getting consistency and making sure the bait doesn't blow out of the water. This can certainly be achieved purposely but it takes a lot of trial and error, wasted baits and testing.
Check out Rapalas new "Scatter Rap" Its a wandering bait and it has a unique lip design which allows it to do so.
Edited by ShutUpNFish 3/28/2013 12:40 PM
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Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | From my experience there are two main causes. One is like the new scatter rap, design induced, the lip makes it happen. The one I've worked with the most is a combination of buoyancy, tuning & speed. I spent allot of time tuning crankbaits for bass tourneys. The buoyant baits want to rise, the lip makes it dive, then you tune a perfect as possible, then id the correct speed of retrieve to have it run perfectly true. If you pull the rod at that speed (increase) the bait walks. I als found you can do the same thing by de-tuning a bait to a certain amount and by adjusting speed bring it back to run true. The later was mainly a dock tactic to get a bait to swim up under a dock. It is not as consistent a method as the prior one. Any of this make sense? |
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| Less weight thinner tail sometimes a blunt nose will help.. |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Thanks for the replies. I did a search for crankbaits that hunt or wander. I believe it was a bass forum but it seems like the hydrodynamics should still apply to larger scale musky baits.
Lots of bait makers there felt like a square lip helped get a more consistent wander. Some also thought weighting the bait with the weight higher in the body, as well as further forward helped aid the wander. Most said making the bait on the edge of unstable while still maintaining control was the key.
Sounds challenging! I need to pick up some wood and get started on some projects. |
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Location: Pigeon Forge TN. | HHHMMMMM, I think I will stick with just painting. |
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| I made some wander ers, and I achieved it with a lip that was round and short but it extended past the side of the bait about 3/8" on either side. I also added weight just behind the head to give it a forward tilt at rest. I didn't taper the back, but the whole lure has a large route ring all around the lure. Even on the cast, the lure doesn't track straight forward. It starts to wander because of the extra lip width, and then tries to return to center but goes right past it. Without the weight it's out of control. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I am not a bait maker, but a good way to get a bait to wonder is to build it slightly out of tune per say. I know some guys will bend one hook hanger one way to throw the lure out of tune, and then bend the next hook hanger in the opposite direction to bring it back into tune…somewhat. From what I gather, and I don’t troll much at all, is a lure will wonder when it is on the hairy edge of blowing out. Some of the best casting cranks are those that would be no good for trolling at any kind of speed as they would blow out. Those are the ones I want to cast  |
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Location: Racine, Wi | From my experience with trolling, speed seems to be critical for getting them to wander. Find the speed that the baits will track true at (and tune as necessary), then increase just beyond that (turns help as well as you are moving along). I also tend to tweek the front and back eyes a bit if the speed doesn't do the trick. I have a biiiig ole box full of DRs and baby DRs that all wander very nicely when trolling. Didn't do much to them outside of watch the boat speed and make sure they are running straight at their max speed. |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | Travis is giving away the game. I call it perfectly crooked. Lokes were built a tiny bit off center. Mine are cut about .6 tenths of a degree off. This makes the bait favor one direction then you tune it to run the other way. Also blunt noses do help. Slashers with blunt noses wander more then ones with narrow noses. This is why we built the Stubby . As the name implies the nose is shorter and stubby. Lip size, type and angle all play into it. I had a guy call me a few years back and tell me his lip was crooked in his slasher . I told him I didn't charge extra for that. He was like huh??? I explained the process of wander to him and he tried the bait. It was down for like 10 minutes and a 47 inch fish crushed it. Since then that bait has been chewed to matchsticks and is still catching fish.
The truth? Most of the great wandering baits were built by accident due to poor tooling, bad designs and such. Computer generated baits can be too perfect to run in chaos mode. However not all fish want wandering baits. Tuff Shads dont hunt at all and they pound numbers like no other lure on St. Clair. Bucktails dont wander and they get bit a lot too. If you are just getting started just build some lures and test them. See what they do on the cast and on thew troll. I invented the Little Claw twitch bait by accident. I had to fix a great twitcher to turn it into a crank bait. But yes Travis lets the cat out of the bag. We make some things just a little off to make them hunt, wander, swing, impart lateral movement , etc,etc. Mike |
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| i wont get into wander/walk on baits.
i will say this. handbuilt wooden lures far achieve what plastic attempts to do..
wood has magic..
george-woodie baits |
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| Some great information in here, since I first posted I’ve been enlightened and yet a definitive answer is still clouded to me. I build my baits as accurate as possible and they are perfectly symmetrical down the centerline. I use a computer to design them and don’t use magic wood to make them either. And yet they do wander – nicely. As I said above I don’t do much trolling and wander was not one of my considerations when designing a lure. I am a casting fisherman; in particular a jerkbait or twitch bait fishermen. When I design a lure for that style of fishing I want it to be erratic and wild, but with some control so it can be finessed. When designing for that you not only have to consider what happens to the lure when you pull or rip it, but you also have to consider what happens when there is slack line and the lure’s momentum takes over. Again it’s all the same usual variables lip size shape and angle, body shape and features. But what I find the biggest controlling factor in the lure’s action is weight placement in relation to it’s centerline and axis. I’ll stick with my feeling that all baits wander when trolled and it’s just a matter of boat speed. I’ll also hypothesize that I can take one of my baits, and with weight manipulation only, make baits that will wander at low speed trolling and high speed trolling. Maybe I should stop leaving my boat at the cabin up north and bring it down here for some trolling fun.
Edited by MRichardson 4/4/2013 9:18 AM
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | Mike , A lure can be designed perfectly straight and set the lip too far forward and it wanders. ANY imperfection be it weight in the wrong place, Lip style, lip angle or even tow eye placement will cause a lure to hunt for stability . You are very correct, even a Jake will wander when you reach its maximum speed but who wants to troll on plane? I have to laugh when I hear guys say they have to troll at 6 / 7 mph to get bit. I ask what lures they are using and the answer is usually a Jake. l know how to mess up a Jake so it will hunt at 3.5 mph. Wandering lures were first discovered by hand carvers long ago. At first many lure makers tried to get rid of wander with "more speed" being the desired quality. Just make it run and not blow out and you have a lure you can mass produce and sell. Being able to say this lure will run right out of the box does not mean this lure will catch fish right out of the box. The best combination in my book for trolling is a lure that will hunt at speeds that are comfortable to troll at. 3 to 5 mph with 4 being the target speed. Lures like the Loke, Wiley, Ziggy, Mordas minnows, Artifacts , Woodies and our Slashers all run in this speed zone.
Now the Jake , lets look at this lure. It will run up to and in many cases exceed 7 mph. why? first of all the lip is set too far back this imparts stability. I would say it was a "SAFE" bet to put the lip that far behind the tow eye. Move that lip forward until the end of the lip is equal to the pulling point and this bait loses about 3 mph off its top speed and starts to hunt. Mike if your baits hunt at slower speeds you have designed an imperfection into them. In my opinion the best baits designed for casting will not troll at all......
Here is a great example. My Little Claw twitch bait was a mistake. I was trying to build a lure that would just crank in. I placed the lip too far forward and the lure would just roll up on its side. Most of the real good ones wont even figure 8 . What ?????some of you are thinking how can the good ones not figure 8? Because they do tricks on the twitch, jerk and rip mode that a stable bait will NOT DO. While testing the first Little claw prototype it took me getting angry and ripping the lure out of a small weed patch to get bit. After we caught 4 more fish in the next hour we realized we designed a jerk bait not a crank. This made me realize I was going in the wrong direction as I was trying to build a crank that would troll. HOWEVER I did discover on that day what a jerk bait needed to be a serious fish catching lure.
I have heard the M-9 Grandma called the best twitch bait ever built . Nonsense. Get one to turn around and look back at a following fish and I might agree. Yes they roll and wobble more then the newer grandmas because of the lip style and placement and they get bit more but why stop there? In my mind there are no lures that are tops in both the casting and trolling catagories. Two totally different sets of hydro dynamics. When you have a lure that functions in both worlds you have a Jack of all trades but the king of neither.
Most production lures are built safe. They will run either casted or trolled and will catch a few fish in either mode. To take them to the wood shed you need to run them against the kings of those modes. Great jerk baits don't troll well and great trolling baits dont do well casted.
I decided long ago I was not in this to make any Jacks. I make Claws out of two different types of wood and weight placements. Casting Claws are heavier and made of Cherry wood so they move more when jerked and suspend better on the pause. Trolling models are made from the much lighter red and white cedars and have just enough weight to keep them upright. This makes them fight to stay down so they run better when trolled savvy? The heavier ones hang in zone with a slow wobbling rise when casted out and jerked, pulled, ripped etc. They even get that special kick out to the side like the Little Claw twitch which turns and looks back presenting a side profile to following fish. Little Claws are t-boned almost every time because the lure kicks out to one side. Muskies love to dog bone a lure. Much like a side to side glide bait except the little claw freezes and hangs in the zone screaming eat me while a glide sinks or the popular production crank bait rises back to the surface. Try and troll that lure and it blows out at 1.5 mph.
Most of this is too much for the average fisherman to grasp. They put it in the water and reel it in. If it does not swim "right" and figure 8 they take it off and move to the next lure usually ending up with a Bucktail. Most production baits are no brainers as they just work (run or swim)when used. Great baits are tricky to tune, tricky to use and even more tricky to build.
Mike I would love to spend a day on the water with you comparing notes on twitch/crank baits. Right now I'm building 14 models of twitch, crank, trolling, jigging and using both screw eye and wire through construction. Also you need to be at next years Michigan show. Mike
Edited by Kingfisher 4/4/2013 10:52 AM
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| Video of a Modified Krusher
I wrote an article in Musky Hunter a few years ago on this subject..
Lokes hands down
http://youtu.be/o7XAw81w-aw
Edited by MuskyFix 4/4/2013 11:14 AM
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| Mike, I’d love to get out fishing with you one day to compare notes, seems we are on the same page though.
Ben, can you email me a copy of that article? I’d love to read it - PS. Please take me trolling soon 
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | MuskyFix - 4/4/2013 12:08 PM
Video of a Modified Krusher
I wrote an article in Musky Hunter a few years ago on this subject..
Lokes hands down
http://youtu.be/o7XAw81w-aw
Perfect speed. 4.3 is the what Slashers run at. I have about 40 Lokes and the best ones were built in the late 90's before John started making them too good. I have one with over 70 fish to its credit. That video shows wander and is the first Plastic bait I have ever seen wander at 4.3 mph. Very cool. And it proves that you can mess up a perfect lure and make it catch fish ha ha ha . Mike
Edited by Kingfisher 4/4/2013 11:27 AM
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Location: Apollo, PA | THAT REPLY TO MIKE FROM KINGFISHER IS ONE OF THE BEST READS THAT I HAVE HAD IN A LONG TIME. I'M NOT KISSING A##, BUT JUST TELLING THE TRUTH. I LOVE THAT STUFF.
I AM FORTUNATE TO KNOW A COUPLE GREAT BUILDERS, AND LOVE TO HEAR THEM TALK ABOUT HOW THEY CREATED THEIR BAITS. TOO GOOD |
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Location: Hayward, WI | Wow, this thread has really taken off! I'm grateful for all the excellent advice. I like the comment about not charging extra to install the lips crooked. Mike, I don't have any of your baits but after your replies I think I need to add at least a casting and trolling Claw to my box. Nice that you're willing to break the mold a little.
After learning that the baits need to be build a little out of tune, I have a feeling my first creations will wander... A LOT! They might wander right to the surface and stay there! Once I learn the basics there is a lot of excellent information here.
Feel free to add more if you have anything!
Tucker
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Location: Money, PA | All I know is that my baits are constructed of plastic resin....The 6" jointed has a walk path of a bout a foot to foot and a half. The bigger Bero Sledge Hammer wonders about double that and is doubled in size. And they troll exceeding 5 mph. I have seen few baits out there which can "wander" significantly and troll consistanly from 4.5 mph or more....Not saying there are none out there.
As for which is better....is not even debatable since some days muskies want steady and other days that "kick" entices them to strike.
Edited by ShutUpNFish 4/4/2013 1:37 PM
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| ShutUpNFish - 4/4/2013 1:16 PM All I know is that my baits are constructed of plastic resin....The 6" jointed has a walk path of a bout a foot to foot and a half. The bigger Bero Sledge Hammer wonders about double that and is doubled in size. And they troll exceeding 5 mph. I have seen few baits out there which can "wander" significantly and troll consistanly from 4.5 mph or more.... As for which is better....is not even debatable since some days muskies want steady and other days that "kick" entices them to strike. Do you purposely build your baits crooked to achieve that? |
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Location: Money, PA | I do not...I have to be honest though...when I built my first jointed bait, it had the "walk" to it....I kinda got lucky, but tweaked some things to get it just the way I wanted it. I had some issues early on as far as baits blowing out of the water, but that has since been corrected by slight lip adjustments. The biggest being that I made the bait go deeper trying to keep it further away from the surface. |
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Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan | I have to chime in here....I have been building trolling baits for many years. My most popular model is the Musky Rocket made out of cedar. They are turned on a lathe using a duplicator so they are pretty close to being exact. I use square lexan lips of various sizes depending on length of the bait. They are not weighted. I do not build them off center, but I do get a "wander" or "hunt" from them, both the straight and jointed models. Some travel more than others, but they are fairly consistent and do not blow out and have had them over 6mph. So.....no scientific theories, just trial and error and Cedar.
Rod |
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| here's a video about wander from 3 various crankbaits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56IjOhGYuZQ |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan |
That is good wandering from that last lure. As yuou can see it starts to hunt for stability at around 4 mph then really gets wild at 5. That is real good stuff there.
I Build mine all on a shaper like Lokes were made. I do however hand sand the heads and this makes each lure a little different. They all wander and run around. St Clair baits were built to run behind weights and this is how to hold that wander into a very usable pattern. Pin a wide wandering lure to a 2 to 6 ounce weight and then run it up past its stabil zone and watch it go. I like Rods statement about making them straight. He does it with lip placement and Cedar. I do it with a slight crooked lip cut. John Mulliet did it with his wire form routered into one half of the bait making it half the thickness of his wire off set. This is hard to describe but for two a halved bait to have the wire in the center you need half of the grooves routered into both halves. It must be exact. John just routered one side. It was brilliant really. But yes today guys are trying to build walking baits. Us old guys just built them and they did it. Any hard to tune lure stays in my box as those are the big fish catchers for us.
I have to go back and clear up a statement I made about Grandma M-9 cranks. I think the M-9 was about as good a plastic lure that has ever been made. More than a jack it approached top dog in both trolling and casting applications. Very few lures will achieve that. It was a crying shame when his molds got destroyed in that fire. So no, I dont think the M-9 was the best twitcher ever made or the best troller ever made. I do believe it was one of if not the best all around crank ever built. |
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Location: Money, PA | That video was good....That wondering bait has more of a predictable and consistant wander back and forth....My bait wander in a different manner. I think there are many different actions out there as well as different ways a bait "wanders"....Mine has more of an erratic wander....The best way to explain it is, that it will be running normally, then all of the sudden it will kick out to the left or right. Then return to normalcy....You can see it somewhat in this video, hard to tell but if you pay close attention to the lure and where it tracks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3olZkUQ0sGI&feature=player_embedded
Edited by ShutUpNFish 4/5/2013 7:39 AM
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Mine tend to take off with the slightest bump or wave action imparted by the planer boards.
The bottom line is this, Wander is caused by lack of stability. Hunting for stability is what makes them swing. Perfect stable baits just track straight like a Tuff Shad or A Jake. And someone else mentioned that Muskies don't always want wander. Tuff Shad is living proof of that. All the Muskies inc records fell last year to Tuff Shad including my wife's all time women's record of 103 fish in one season. 4 boats from Ohio fishing off the south shore on Lake St Clair combined for over 1500 muskies and most came on Tuff Shads. John Dennis boated over 600 himself to set a new all time men's masters record. So wander is not a given as the required quality to boat fish.
Lastly , there are many ways to get a bait to wander. My slashers have a slightly off set lip. Others do it with weight, lip style, placement, wood type, and general design. The more a lure fights for stability the more it will kick out and try to break out of that straight running wobble. Then the lip grabs and pulls it back into line only to head the other way like a car over steering during slide on ice. Isnt this fun? Hydro dynamics are so cool and one of the reasons why I build lures. To see what they will do. Have fun and good luck. Mike
Edited by Kingfisher 4/5/2013 11:13 AM
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Location: Money, PA | All good stuff Mike for sure....good to hear varying oponions from various baitmakers and bait users...
I personally liked the original Tuff Shads much better for me....They had more action and thump. My personal preference leans me towards baits with more attraction....whether it be vibration, wander or clatter. That said, I probably caught more fish on Wiley Lures than any bait I've used to date and Wileys track as true as they come. Go Figure. |
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Location: Apollo, PA | The mystique of the King of Freshwater. The mighty Muskellunge. |
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| MuskyFix - 4/4/2013 11:08 AM
Video of a Modified Krusher
I wrote an article in Musky Hunter a few years ago on this subject..
Lokes hands down
http://youtu.be/o7XAw81w-aw
WOW BRILLIANT,VERY GOOD IDEA!
GEORGE AND MIKE ARE RIGHT WOOD IS MAGIC |
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Getting the Wander