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Posts: 410
Location: With my son on the water | Did any body see the Florocarbon Leader fail on Key's outdoors yesterday? I know there is another post on here regrading this but it really makes a guy think twice.
They don't give a lot of details, I wonder what happened? |
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Location: Detroit River | It doesn't matter if the leader is steel or fluoro, ALL leaders can fail. |
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Location: Walker, MN | I had one break on a fish too while fishing rocks last year with a dawg. I checked the leader ten min prior and it was a new 130# floro leader. I am religious about checking my leaders for frey. I came back with half a leader. I felt terible. I figured it was a one in a million type situation at the time. I will admit that I was working about as shallow as I could with this lure and banging bottom a bit. Steel might be better in these situations. It would have to be just the right rock at just the right time to damage a heavy floro leader like that and then have a fish strike. I have always obsessed about the condition of mine line and leader, now even more so. |
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Location: Yahara River Chain | Zib - 3/25/2013 7:52 AM
It doesn't matter if the leader is steel or fluoro, ALL leaders can fail.
True are you suggesting that we quit fishing muskie???
The best leaders out there are the steel leaders from Leaders and lures. Their leaders are rated for the hardware that's on them. In test after test the crimps hold and the wire breaks 1st and not in the loops. They may pigtail a bit, but never kink. I have heard that guides like Doug Johnson and Frank Walsh have caught over 50 muskies on one leader (and countless pike). If that doesn't tell you how durable these leaders are- you just ain't listening.  |
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Posts: 944
| IMO People are trying to use floro way too much. I will not use it casting rubber, jerks or casting and trolling around any kind of structure.
Do you actually think a musky will not hit your lure because you have a wire leader but you have 2 or three big steel treble hooks hanging off the bait????
I have not had any problems catching big fish in clear water using wire leaders.
I use 174# straight wire leaders from Stealth Tackle for all Rubber and jerkbaits
Sure a wire leader can break if you try and use it too long, If it gets kinked bad or has signs of wear replace it...
Anything a you can cut with a knife a musky can cut with their teeth. So many fish "head shoot" jerks and rubber. Alot of the big fish I get on Bulldawgs, Big Joes or Medussa's have 1-3" of leader in their mouth so I use wire.
muskie nut: leaders and lures leaders are far from the best
Jeff Hanson
madisonmuskyguide.com |
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Posts: 624
Location: S.W. WI | Well said Jeff. AMEN!!! |
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| Jeff I agree with everything you said. Fluoro is great for great leaders but NOT for all uses. |
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| Jeff ---- Excellent !!! ---- jimjimjim |
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Posts: 1405
Location: Detroit River | muskie! nut - 3/25/2013 9:28 AM Zib - 3/25/2013 7:52 AM It doesn't matter if the leader is steel or fluoro, ALL leaders can fail. True are you suggesting that we quit fishing muskie??? The best leaders out there are the steel leaders from Leaders and lures. Their leaders are rated for the hardware that's on them. In test after test the crimps hold and the wire breaks 1st and not in the loops. They may pigtail a bit, but never kink. I have heard that guides like Doug Johnson and Frank Walsh have caught over 50 muskies on one leader (and countless pike ). If that doesn't tell you how durable these leaders are- you just ain't listening. : )
The components for leaders can fail just as easy as the wire itself. I had a 150 Lb. Sampo BB swivel break on me while jigging Bondy Baits.
As far as "Best Leaders" out there that's just a matter of personal preference.
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Location: Duluth, MN | muskie! nut - 3/25/2013 8:28 AM
Zib - 3/25/2013 7:52 AM
It doesn't matter if the leader is steel or fluoro, ALL leaders can fail.
True are you suggesting that we quit fishing muskie???
Huh? |
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Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | I use dbl barrel crimps, two per end, then I super glue every one of them after I melt a bulb on the tag ends. I normally use 150-250 lb floro. And still find that after a few outing s the safest thing to do is cut them up and grab a new one. We've had two give since I started using floro, one on a fish. They will break right where the knot is on the main line. We tried sleeves there too, but have not found the real comfort with them. On the other hand several fish landed with the floro w/o problems too. From my observation the snap hook sets are a problem. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | What about 180# plus flouro? That's what I use for most apps. I prefer them for dawgs because they don't bend like a steel leader when you get a dawg ball. Lots of times the fish eats the head of the bait where the leader is connected. Im guessing big sharp teeth can cut it and maybe that's what happened on keyes show. Im still going to use flouro. |
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Location: 31 | Kirby Budrow - 3/25/2013 11:47 AM What about 180# plus flouro? That's what I use for most apps. I prefer them for dawgs because they don't bend like a steel leader when you get a dawg ball. Lots of times the fish eats the head of the bait where the leader is connected. Im guessing big sharp teeth can cut it and maybe that's what happened on keyes show. Im still going to use flouro. There's no question that heavier 180 lb fluorocarbon provides more protection than your typical 80 lb. super line, and that “everything” can fail. However, let’s discuss this rationally with the “everything else” being equal because there’s no way that even heavy fluorocarbon provides the same tooth-proof protection that wire does. Granted, how much protection the different strength fluorocarbons can provide can be argued, but none are 100% tooth-proof. This is not my opinion… it’s a fact, no matter how many years you have used it without a problem because conversely I know people who have been bitten off with it in the first year.
I did a test to see what the difference levels of protection were between 80/180 lb fluorocarbon, and two different 80 lb super lines.
The test was with a razor blade on the different lines pulled tight; and I feel confident in saying that the 80 lb fluorocarbon offers virtually the same protection as the 80 lb super line. I say this because they could all be severed by simply applying moderate pressure with the razor blade. I was somewhat surprised that the 180 lb fluorocarbon stood up pretty well to this test, even when I applied some extra pressure, it took a lot more pressure than the 80 lb before it broke. However, the 180 lb fluorocarbon could be severed with just a moderate pressure slicing motion with the razor blade. (All of the 80 pound stuff was quickly cut in two with a slice).
With that being said; my unscientific assessment is that the 180 lb fluorocarbon offered about 90% better protection than the 80lb lines for the direct pressure test, and about 50% better protection for the slicing test. That's just a guess to give you an idea... I did not test any wire for obvious reasons.
Jeff's experience is spot on based on this test, as well as my own experience. Many times I’ve had my wire leader come back kinked after a fish tried to hit an erratic bait and missed forward of the bait (I've had this happen with a bucktail too) Bottom line; you could have a problem using fluorocarbon with erratic baits, or in dirty water because although the heavier fluorocarbon provides better protection than no leader, it is not tooth-proof.
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Location: 31 | Masqui-ninja - 3/25/2013 7:59 AM I had one break on a fish too while fishing rocks last year with a dawg. I checked the leader ten min prior and it was a new 130# floro leader. I am religious about checking my leaders for frey. I came back with half a leader. I felt terible. I figured it was a one in a million type situation at the time. Probably more like 1 in a 500?… kind of reminds me of what’s said when big poker hands collide on the felt. The typical scenario is on the money bubble with wired KK versus AA all in pre-flop. I can't tell you how many times I’ve heard the guy with the KK say; “what are the chances of that happening”. I like to reply with; “for $20 I'll tell you” … 100%.
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| I haven't seen the Keyes episode yet, but where did the leader fail? Was it at the crimp, the knot, the hardware, or the flouro itself? Depending on what failed it may not have anything to do with the Flouro.
So here is the question for me: Flouro is not 100% toothproof, but in terms of bite offs, what is the rate of bite offs? Right now this debate seems binary: Does flouro get bit off more than wire: Yes/No? IMO the answer is obviously yes, but for me the question is how much more often? Also, what other advantages does Flouro have over wire?
Here are some I can think of:
I feel it is easier to cast
It offers a degree of stealth depending on the system
Makes the wind-on system possible
I've heard that it is safer for a fish should it roll, but I can't confirm this from my minimal mileage
I personally use a hand made wind-on system that was taught to me by BTURG. Between the 3 anglers, including myself, using this system I would estimate that it put (and I'm quite small in this number) 125-150 fish in the boat just last year. To my knowledge there was not a single bite off and that is with a leader that has up to 5' of Flouro. Maybe this is a statistical anomaly, but that would seem to indicate that while Flouro might not be as certain as wire, it is far from being something that gets bit off with frequency.
The wind-on system alone makes it a no-brainer for me. |
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| Brad P - 3/25/2013 12:30 PM
I haven't seen the Keyes episode yet, but where did the leader fail? Was it at the crimp, the knot, the hardware, or the flouro itself? Depending on what failed it may not have anything to do with the Flouro.
So here is the question for me: Flouro is not 100% toothproof, but in terms of bite offs, what is the rate of bite offs? Right now this debate seems binary: Does flouro get bit off more than wire: Yes/No? IMO the answer is obviously yes, but for me the question is how much more often? Also, what other advantages does Flouro have over wire?
Here are some I can think of:
I feel it is easier to cast
It offers a degree of stealth depending on the system
Makes the wind-on system possible
I've heard that it is safer for a fish should it roll, but I can't confirm this from my minimal mileage
I personally use a hand made wind-on system that was taught to me by BTURG. Between the 3 anglers, including myself, using this system I would estimate that it put (and I'm quite small in this number) 125-150 fish in the boat just last year. To my knowledge there was not a single bite off and that is with a leader that has up to 5' of Flouro. Maybe this is a statistical anomaly, but that would seem to indicate that while Flouro might not be as certain as wire, it is far from being something that gets bit off with frequency.
The wind-on system alone makes it a no-brainer for me.
I agree. The benefits to angler and fish in most situations is why i use it on many set ups. BR |
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Location: 31 | Brad P - 3/25/2013 12:30 PM I haven't seen the Keyes episode yet, but where did the leader fail? Was it at the crimp, the knot, the hardware, or the flouro itself? Depending on what failed it may not have anything to do with the Flouro. So here is the question for me: Flouro is not 100% toothproof, but in terms of bite offs, what is the rate of bite offs?
That's the million-dollar question; and I agree that there might be advantages to fluorocarbon in certain situations, I also did not test the 250 lb… which might hypothetically be 99% more tooth-prove than the superline for muskie.
I do agree that heavy fluorocarbon is better for the fish when it rolls on the leader, but that really only pertains to trolling length leaders and not the typical 12” casting length. I use a long coated seven strand wire for trolling, and it's just as fish friendly as fluorocarbon when they roll up in the line.
Now if you're able to splice a longer length of it in for casting you have a pretty good argument for it being more fish friendly because I've had muskies get some nasty cuts in them when they rolled up a 1’ wire leader and super line.
I personally know a guide who boats hundreds of muskies every year claiming to have never had a bite-off. However, I've also witnessed a bite off firsthand and have tested it for myself and I would never consider using it with an irregular bait like a Bulldog.
IMHO whether or not that particularly leader on Keys was a bite off or not is almost irrelevant, I mean; why speculate on that one particular instance when we already have firsthand testimonials on this thread regarding the bite off possibility.
I think Jeff summed it up well in that fluorocarbon leaders are already part of the terminal tackle landscape, and in his opinion they are overused. That is my opinion as well, and understanding what pound test, when/where/how to use them optimally is the question we need to explore.
I certainly have a preference for fluorocarbon in daytime clear-water situations. However, I also have wire 12” add-ons that I clip on after the sun goes down. I personally see no valid reason for using a fluorocarbon leader after dark and would switch to my standard coated wire if I didn't have to re-tie everything. |
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Posts: 238
| How does it benefit angler or fish if bait is left stuck in the fishes mouth after the floro is cut?
In the keys episode the floro was cut right off.
I had a very large fish eat a bulldawg and cut my 150 pound floro leader off in 10 seconds of thrashing.
I will never use floro for rubber baits again.
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| Here is a valid reason to use it after dark: Want to use all black baits, like a slow rolled all black Super Model? Using the wind-on leader, the sound change of the leader ticking your rod guides tells you when to inititate your figure 8. You can initiate the 8 the same way every time just by sound. It seems stupid, but that little reminder is a great way to tighten up the transition to your 8, especially when the day runs long and you lose focus. No other leader I know of can do that.
BTURG told me a story last fall where he was out with a client who was legally blind. Using the wind-on leader (and some coaching) this gentleman could execute a flawless figure 8 every time. For guys wanting to put more fish in the bag boatside, (who doesn't?) it is hard to not see the advantage of this system.
That is more of a pitch for the wind on system than anything, but it shows that Flouro certainly has it's advantages. For rubber I use a 200# system and 100# braid, including 100# hollow core for the splice. It is more out of respect for the force exerted by a pounder when a casting mishap happens, but also for how the fish tend to inhale that type of lure. I can see why you'd want to use wire there, but I'm personally sticking with flouro as I'm a fan of the wind-on system.
The one place wind-on offers disdvatnage is in sub freezing temps. Once the mercury drops to the low 30s and guides start getting ice I switch to a more traditional leader. The big think flouro seems to cause accelerate the freeze up process on the guides due to bringing in more moisture than just the braid.
How it failed is worth knowing. If the flouro failed at the crimp or the hardware, then that is not failure of the flouro nor a bite-off, but a faulty leader. It still is bad for the fish just the same, but if you are using it to base a decision on which type of leade to use, then it should be relevant. I don't use crimps in my system.
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| Wire can fail as well, metal fatigue is real. The scars fish receive from wire leaders is very real as well. Line can break, lures can break. There is always a chance of something going wrong, just part of fishing. Each person can use what they like. BR |
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Posts: 89
| I had a Musky bite thru a #100 I talked to the company they said with big rubber go with the #180 because they usually head hit the bait. Since I switched I haven't had a problem YET. |
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Posts: 365
| Lets see now ,,,, if a floro leader gets bit off and the lure gets lodged in the musky's mouth and the musky dies a slow death due to starvation ,,,, thats OK ???? ------- now I get it ------- ????? -------- |
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Posts: 89
| Jim I am Glad that you live in a perfect world where nothing fails, I also had one jump and twist and when it did the line got in its mouth and was cut. How do you know that every fish you release lives, you don't |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | How do you splice a flouro leader to your line? I would like to try this. |
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Location: Mt. Zion, IL | Kirby Budrow - 3/25/2013 6:22 PM
How do you splice a flouro leader to your line? I would like to try this.
Uni knot to uni knot works very well. |
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Posts: 501
Location: S.Wisconsin | what about using a 3" piece of wire in front of the flouro like Greg Thomas uses? I have used this system for 3 years with no issues. couple feet of flouro tied directly to my main line |
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| jimjimjim - 3/25/2013 5:38 PM
Lets see now ,,,, if a floro leader gets bit off and the lure gets lodged in the musky's mouth and the musky dies a slow death due to starvation ,,,, thats OK ???? ------- now I get it ------- ????? --------
That has only took place once on my boat, and it was 7 strand that broke. The angler found the fish a week later and got his bobbie bait back. BR |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Kirby Budrow - 3/25/2013 6:22 PM
How do you splice a flouro leader to your line? I would like to try this.
here's a really good "how-to" video ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2ecocBXTeI&feature=youtu.be |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | thanks! |
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Posts: 109
Location: Wisconsin River | I have had several fish boat side cut floro like butter on the hookset. Its not on my line anymore. Anything can fail, less likely with wire. |
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| I would like to know who came up with the idea that a muskellunge can see a thin dark colored 12" wire leader and then makes the decision that he is being tricked into eating something that's fake and wisely leaves.
I would also like to know how this same muskellunge can then be fooled to eat a fake meal because he can not see a thick piece of 12" line while completely ignoring the two or three 5/0- 8/0 hooks dangling from this fake meal and the fact that it doesn't look like anything that he has ever seen swimming in the lake before..
An even more interesting scenario is the muskellunge that is tricked into eating a large live sucker that has those funny looking hooks hanging on each side like big ear rings but eats it because he cant see a 12" leader.
I think I am with Jerry on this one. |
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Location: Gilberts IL/Rhinelander WI | 4amuskie - 3/25/2013 9:05 PM
I would like to know who came up with the idea that a muskellunge can see a thin dark colored 12" wire leader and then makes the decision that he is being tricked into eating something that's fake and wisely leaves.
I would also like to know how this same muskellunge can then be fooled to eat a fake meal because he can not see a thick piece of 12" line while completely ignoring the two or three 5/0- 8/0 hooks dangling from this fake meal and the fact that it doesn't look like anything that he has ever seen swimming in the lake before..
An even more interesting scenario is the muskellunge that is tricked into eating a large live sucker that has those funny looking hooks hanging on each side like big ear rings but eats it because he cant see a 12" leader.
I think I am with Jerry on this one.
The fact that fluoro is "invisible underwater" has no bearing whatsoever as to why many , including myself, use it in many applications. Just sayin... |
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| Some good information here..
I had a 130 fail on me but luckily got the muskie in the net. Ive also seen a few other floro leaders fail on HARD hook sets. Usually close to the boat when it was a sudden quick swift reaction hook set with the fish being less than 10ft away when striking.
Heres the leader that broke on me on my personal best fish. Basically was sliced right through you can see the deep slices and cuts in the rest of the leader.
Attachments
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 123.jpg (142KB - 147 downloads)
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Location: 31 | Big Rock - 3/25/2013 8:38 PM I have had several fish boat side cut floro like butter on the hookset. Its not on my line anymore. Anything can fail, less likely with wire. Okay, I think we found the poster child for the fluorocarbon versus wire debate... Thanks Mark! I was getting ready to post something along the lines of all it takes is one bite off incident and you're back to wire, so you're not going to get a testimonial of somebody having had multiple bite offs. I was wrong... I was also talking to a good friend this afternoon (who every person on this board has heard of) and he has witnessed a boat side fish cut through heavy fluorocarbon too. So, I think I have enough information to make an informed decision after careful consideration. I'm in the process of making new leaders and the fluorocarbon I was using in clear water situations is going in the garbage after I salvaged the components. Thanks for sharing the picture Ian, glad to hear fish was boated but guessing your considering only wire now as well. |
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| If you use equipment properly you won't have anymore issues than you would with wire. BR |
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| I actually caught a 51" on the leader. Just the leader across the width of its mouth. That thing was tight lipped and liked that leader so much he wouldn't let go. I have a witness. That was enough justification for me. No floro leader made would have stood up to that. |
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Location: 31 |
BenR - 3/25/2013 2:42 PM Wire can fail as well, metal fatigue is real. The scars fish receive from wire leaders is very real as well. Line can break, lures can break. There is always a chance of something going wrong, just part of fishing. Each person can use what they like. BR Ben, it is understood that everything can fail and most of us will probably just be going back and using what we have and like unless something changes our opinion. I've changed my option... However, there are people reading this who are new to the sport and still on the fence to consider here, and in order to have some intelligent dialogue regarding the merits of fluorocarbon versus wire, the conversation needs to start from a point where both the wire and fluorocarbon are brand-new and everything else is equal. So, even though wire can fatigue and fail, so can fluorocarbon if overused, so I consider that to be a mute point. Less assume for the sake of argument that both leader materials have the same trustworthy crimps, snaps etc. and discuss the merits of wire versus fluorocarbon only. My only reason for using fluorocarbon in the past was that I perceived it to be less visible in clear water, and that somehow that mattered to the fish along the lines of what 4amuskie and Ben have said. The key thought here being that I “perceived” it to be something because there's no way to know if it actually matters to a muskie. It does seem a little odd to me to think that I concerned myself with disguising a couple feet of line when these fish follow right to the boat, then grab an artificial lure that's a foot behind a rod tip being sloshed around in the water. Just sayin... |
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| After reading this, I am seriously considering switching to the hybrid leader. I don't get to fish enough to worry about possibly losing a fish to a cut leader.
Does anyone have any info, or the link to look up the design?
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Posts: 415
| BenR - 3/25/2013 9:43 PM
If you use equipment properly you won't have anymore issues than you would with wire. BR
Care to elaborate? |
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| Ja Rule - 3/26/2013 6:08 AM
BenR - 3/25/2013 9:43 PM
If you use equipment properly you won't have anymore issues than you would with wire. BR
Care to elaborate?
It is important to balance your equipment. BR |
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Posts: 153
Location: MN | I have never used floro leaders because of the chances for bite offs, and personaly think the muskie seeing the leader and not striking the bait theory is stupid. After reading this whole thread I may start using floro after dark for perfect boatside figure 8's
I will check out the link provided. When tying the uni knots what # test floro works good for tying good knots? And do you have to super glue? |
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| I use all types of leaders, steel, coated seven strand, and flouro. A person should be using the right tool for the right job. My flouro leaders are used the least. I don't find them necessary for most applications.
I know have heard so many stories through the years of leader failure. It absolutely amazes me how cheap some fisherman can be when it comes to changing leaders. I change all my leaders frequently and toss them out regardless of how well they may look. I am not about to spend the kind of money I spend chasing fish to have a leader failure ruin my day. |
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| The flourocarbon is attached via hollowcore braid. You literally thread the flouro up into the line using a DAHO needle. BTURG has a great video on how to do this the Thorne Site. There are actually two connections: The threaded flouro to the hollow core and then the loop to lopp to the main line. If you wanted to run your reel with hollow core line you could eliminate the latter connection.
I've considered running hollow ace, but I find I enjoy drier braids like the 832 Suffix, so I plan to keep the loop to loop.
With regards to the photo above I caught a 48-49" fish this summer trolling a Krisco. This fish had my leader completely in it's mouth when it got in the net, crosswise, so across the teeth. That leader did not fail although I have since reitred it. The point here is that I'm sure that for all the breakoff/bite-off anecdotes there is probably one on the other side of the coin. The only way to settle this "debate" would be to do some mosntrous study to demonstrate quantitatively what the increased chance of bite-off ends up being. Otherwise it is just a forum post and someone who reads it for advice is just going to take away whatever story they find more convincing without really "knowing" anything.
As far as leaders go, I find the Wind-On system offers the most advantage to my fishing and I do not feel it is putting the fish at increased risk. Mileage may vary and people can do what they want, I'm not some fishing dictator. (LOL) Just letting folks know there are alternatives out there. |
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Location: MN | I found the video, thanks I will have to give this a try. |
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| I am going to stick with my flurocarbon leaders. They don't kink and I have never lost a fish. |
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Location: Madtown, WI | Can't you just tie a knot in your line for a "time to figure 8" indicator? Tie an overhand knot in your line a couple feet from your leader and you should be able to feel that when it hits your rod tip. Never tried it, but it's much easier than the wind on system....
As for flouro, not worth the risk. I use toothy critty leader material with any baits that tend to kink your leaders (like a bulldawg). |
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Posts: 415
| BenR - 3/26/2013 6:57 AM
Ja Rule - 3/26/2013 6:08 AM
BenR - 3/25/2013 9:43 PM
If you use equipment properly you won't have anymore issues than you would with wire. BR
Care to elaborate?
It is important to balance your equipment. BR
VERY informative, thank you. |
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Posts: 415
| stdevos - 3/26/2013 1:52 PM
Can't you just tie a knot in your line for a "time to figure 8" indicator? Tie an overhand knot in your line a couple feet from your leader and you should be able to feel that when it hits your rod tip.
That's what I've been doing for years, works quite well. |
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| Ja Rule - 3/26/2013 2:28 PM
BenR - 3/26/2013 6:57 AM
Ja Rule - 3/26/2013 6:08 AM
BenR - 3/25/2013 9:43 PM
If you use equipment properly you won't have anymore issues than you would with wire. BR
Care to elaborate?
It is important to balance your equipment. BR
VERY informative, thank you.
I have used 80lb with my jig rod and fly rods with great success and no bite offs. With my heavier casting rods I use 150-180lb. Many of my trolling leaders are 200lb to minimize the cuts on fish that roll. I do use 130lb leaders to troll smaller baits on lighter trolling rods with great success as well. If you are using ocean reels, xxh rods, and super heavy hooks, you are going to have to take into consideration the pressure you are putting on the leader. BR |
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| just tie a knot in your line for a "time to figure 8" indicator? Tie an overhand knot in your line a couple feet from your leader
QUESTION Ive long wondered regarding precisely this: will this knot (in braid) cause a weak point ? TIA |
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| An overhand knot is rated at ~50% strength relative to the line you tie it with. Of course, to each their own... |
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Posts: 121
Location: Forest Lake, MN & Bemidji, MN | A great alternative if someone wants an extremely flexible leader with the bite off protection of wire is the Stealth 49 strand. It's very hard to kink one and they fish pretty similar to fluorocarbon, just heavier. The primary reason I began using fluorocarbon (180lb) was it's flexibility when casting specific baits. I had heard of bite offs and was highly skeptical until it nearly happened to me on a boatside strike in the first turn of an 8. Fish hit a pounder head on and cut a nice chunk out of the leader (pictured) in the process. The leader did not fail, but my confidence in the material did and I think that's the most important part. Maybe it was a bad batch, I don't know. I still use 5ft of fluorocarbon when trolling to help with a rolling fish but I have started to shy away from it casting. Just sharing an experience. I think one thing everyone can agree on is losing a fish to terminal tackle failure sucks. I lose enough to operator error.
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Posts: 153
Location: MN | I wouldn't use an overhand knot, but a slip bobber knot should do the same thing.
I think I am going to tie a couple new leaders like suggested.
I have always just made my own leaders from wire.
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| For those using Gregg Thomas' leader, or tying flouro directly to the braid with a double uni-knot, what's the heaviest flouro that you can use?
I don't have any experience tying knots in heavy flouro, but I have a hard time believing that that knot would cinch down very tight.
I believe I've read that Thomas' leader attaches with a double uni, and that that knot goes through the guides to give the tell-tale tick as it passes through.
I really like the idea of a leader without the heavy swivel out front for certain applications.
Thoughts or experiences? |
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Location: Madison, WI | i've done each, and knots in the line, or a slip-bobber knot aren't nearly as easy to hear as the Wind-On leader system. the sound as the head of the leader moves up through the eyelets is distinct and very noticeable.
interestingly, i've had 2 wire leaders fail (one on a fish, one on a rock) and broken quite a few when trying to straighten them back out after getting kinked up. i've only had one fluoro leader cut, and that was by a fish thrashing in the net, but never during a cast. maybe i should quit using wire leaders? 
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Posts: 4266
| I make my own wire leaders and buy the best terminal connections. One year I lost a big glider on a cast and a big fish during a fight. Both times the snap failed. Now the bottom end of my leaders are just a loop and every lure that I own has a heavy duty split ring in the nose. I've never had a split ring open like a snap. |
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Posts: 4266
| I make my own wire leaders and buy the best terminal connections. One year I lost a big glider on a cast and a big fish during a fight. Both times the snap failed. Now the bottom end of my leaders are just a loop and every lure that I own has a heavy duty split ring in the nose. I've never had a split ring open like a snap. |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | This is an interesting discussion and now you guys have my scared to use flouro leaders, lol. A few years back I lost two salmon in one day on 30# flouro and have never used it for salmon since.
Jed |
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | jfreborg - 3/26/2013 5:28 PM
A great alternative if someone wants an extremely flexible leader with the bite off protection of wire is the Stealth 49 strand.
That is what LeadersandLures.com uses. This stuff just doesn't kink, like I said, it may pigtail a bit, but straightens out when you crank the bait in. L&L also has 21 and 19 strand wire. This is the same stuff they used to steer airplane rudders. I'm not sure how John @ Stealth does it, but Gene has a machine that makes sure its not under or over crimped. I have Gene make mine with a solid ring and I won't use snaps as Beaver says, to easy to open up or fail. |
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Location: Minneapolis | What's a good size split ring to put on the nose of all baits? |
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | TC MUSKIE - 3/26/2013 9:17 PM
What's a good size split ring to put on the nose of all baits?
Size 7. If the eye is large enough to allow free movement I use a triple ring. On small baits I will use a size 5 |
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Posts: 209
| Brad P - 3/25/2013 2:37 PM
Here is a valid reason to use it after dark: Want to use all black baits, like a slow rolled all black Super Model? Using the wind-on leader, the sound change of the leader ticking your rod guides tells you when to inititate your figure 8. You can initiate the 8 the same way every time just by sound. It seems stupid, but that little reminder is a great way to tighten up the transition to your 8, especially when the day runs long and you lose focus. No other leader I know of can do that.
You can do the same thing with a slip-bobber tie about 3 feet above your leader. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI |
I agree with many of the points made earlier that fluorocarbon, single strand, and seven strand all have proper applications and the wise fisherman applies the right tool for the job. I admittedly use fluorocarbon more often than steel with the exception of a glider set up. This is probably due in large to the fact that I've had good success with fluorocarbon and to be honest some degree of laziness to retie and go with steel in borderline conditions.
Going back to the original post, did we really "see" the leader fail ? I'm not sure I did. I saw an apparent fish on, then nothing, then two disappointed looking fisherman, then one of them holding what appeared to be a leader snapped in half.
Perhaps I'm just too cynical but can you ever be sure of what is seen on TV ? Was it real or was it scripted to make for a better show ? One thing I'm sure I didn't see is the fishermen immediately switching to steel leaders immediately after the "failure". In fishing tournaments where every fish counts (except for the 27 incher that did manage to hit the bottom of the net) I'm sure I would have switched to steel, despite my self confessed over reliance on fluoro. Something to think about anyway...
btfish - 3/25/2013 4:53 AM
Did any body see the Florocarbon Leader fail on Key's outdoors yesterday? I know there is another post on here regrading this but it really makes a guy think twice.
They don't give a lot of details, I wonder what happened? |
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Posts: 416
Location: Madtown, WI | I have never had any of my own single strand, seven strand, 130# mono, #120 fluoro, or toothy critter leaders fail. I make all my own leaders so that at the first sign of failure, I replace them out for just a few pennies....
I have had both mono and fluoro leaders get extremely frayed up after catching a fish.... never seen that happen with wire nor do I understand the benefit of using them, especially in the algae stained lakes that I fish. The only time I use fluoro is sucker fishing when chances of the fish hitting the leader are slim to none. If the fish swallows the entire rig past the leader, well that fish is likely sol anyways. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | we seem to have the fluoro vs steel argument about as often as the trolling suckers argument... ; )
i've been using and making 180 lb fluoro for many many years, i'd say all totaled has to be 2000+ fish on them between me and my buds...maybe more, don't keep track, one thing i am sure of is there have been zero bite offs or failures...
i'll keep using them...use what you have confidence in and use what works.
period. |
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Posts: 91
| Amen! |
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Location: North Central IL USA | Jeff Hanson - 3/25/2013 8:38 AM
muskie nut: leaders and lures leaders are far from the best
What do you use? |
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| BNelson's 180 fluoro are all I have used for 6+ years. Zero failures. |
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Posts: 285
Location: NE Wisconsin | No bite off here!
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Posts: 944
| gregk
I use Stealth Tackles 174# Straight wire leaders for all my jerbaits, twitch baits and rubber.
Never had a problem ever.
Jeff Hanson
madisonmuskyguide.com |
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Location: 31 | Johnnie - 3/28/2013 6:22 AM No bite off here! I've certainly used fluorocarbon for trolling and have never had a bite off either, but then again I’ve never had a fish take the head of the bait deep in its mouth exposing the fluorocarbon to the large teeth on the side like what "might" have happened on Key’s outdoors either.
I do remember a few being close like that one though Johnnie, and to me it just boils down to common sense and awareness… if you can cut it with a knife you are running the risk of losing a fish with small lures or jerk baits if the leader gets pressure from those larger teeth. So I would never consider using it myself casting a bulldog, but I was still considering using it trolling with large lures as I previously mentioned.
What changed my mind are these first-hand accounts and the 80 lb fluorocarbon/80 lb super line test I conducted; it only took moderate pressure (no slice) from a razor blade for the 80 lb, and the 180 lb was easily sliced in two with one pass. So to me, it really has nothing to do with who makes the leader because any leader made out of fluorocarbon would have had the same problem as jfreborg, ProFishermanJones, and Big Rock when they claimed they were bitten off. Without a doubt, smaller fish cannot take the entire lure in their mouth like a large fish, so if you're mainly catching fish that are under 45”... I would venture a guess that there's less risk of a bite off than someone who's mainly catching/targeting fish over 45”.
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Posts: 2015
| Jerry,
Next time you catch a large muskie, try and cut a fluorocarbon leader on the side of one of those big teeth you mention, you will have more success with a butter knife. |
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Location: 31 | IAJustin - 3/29/2013 11:40 AM Jerry, Next time you catch a large muskie, try and cut a fluorocarbon leader on the side of one of those big teeth you mention, you will have more success with a butter knife. Good idea, I'll try to remember to try it on a few fish this summer, maybe even do a video... should be interesting research. Have you tested this? Because those large teeth are very sharp, I honestly can't see how a butter knife would cut better. What's your take is on the posts from jfreborg, ProFishermanJones, and Big Rock? |
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Posts: 2015
| I have, I have a musky skull, the point of the tooth is what is sharp, but large Fluoro deflects off the point of the tooth making even putting nicks in the leader difficult. I can't speak of others experience, but I can't get fluoro to fail after 100's of muskie's dozens over 48" - its all I've used since 2004. Maybe even more amazing is I've done, 2 fly-in pike trips with part of the intent to see if I could get flouro to fail. Over 600 pike in 14 days, over 200 38"+ and I could not get 100lb flouro to fail. (I only use 130lb and 180lb for muskies) Sometimes you would have to change the 100lb leader after 4-5 fish, but more commonly it took 20+ fish, to even start to make the leader unfishable. I was using 6" soft platics and 5-6" flies, the pike would engulf the entire bait. I say use what you have confidence in. Many saltwater fish (serrated, scissor like teeth) go through fluorocarbon like butter, muskies and pike teeth are nothing like a razor blade. My 2 cents. |
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| I have caught over 200+ muskies with fish as long as 54.5" on floro leaders. I have never had a failure. I am very picky with my leaders though...if there is even a slight nick in the floro, I switch it out with a brand new one. I will not use any floro. leaders under 130 lb. test and I will only use Stealth. BNelson makes some good quality leaders as well. With that said, I've never had a failure on any kind of leader. I am constantly checking my leaders and if I have any kind of doubt that a leader might not hold up, it's coming off for a new one. |
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Location: 31 |
little one - 3/25/2013 6:40 PM what about using a 3" piece of wire in front of the flouro like Greg Thomas uses? I have used this system for 3 years with no issues. couple feet of flouro tied directly to my main line I have very limited experience with fluorocarbon, and then only for trolling... but I must say that I liked it except for being nervous about the bite off possibility. I seriously doubt I'll ever use it for casting, but might reconsider using it for trolling after I do some tests with it on actual fish (in the net) this summer. It seems that everyone with experience agrees that the minimum pound test for muskies should be 130 lb, with 180 lb better for the people reading this with limited experience. I'm really not trying to be a smartalec here… but I am a little curious why a guy like Thomas puts a piece of wire in front of his fluorocarbon? |
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Jerry Newman - 3/30/2013 11:55 AM
I'm really not trying to be a smartalec here… but I am a little curious why a guy like Thomas puts a piece of wire in front of his fluorocarbon?
Fair question for sure. It's because he's not using heavier fluoro. For that system to work, you have to use lighter fluorocarbon (80# is the max that Gregg has found will work) because it is designed to go through the rod tip. Heavier fluoro and the knot will be too large and either cause damage to the rod guide or not go through it. If he was able to use heavier fluoro, I'm sure he would eliminate the wire.
Aaron |
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| These Thomas hybrid leaders seem designed solely to counter the issue of "line-shy" fish. 80# fluoro is (most people in this thread seem to agree) not really an impediment to a muskie's teeth; the bite-proof aspect of the hybrid leader is the 4" steel portion.
The difference between using this hybrid leader and directly tying a 4" steel leader to 100# braid is the visibility factor of the braid.
This hybrid leader is an interesting and useful innovation to be sure, but for situations where one is not concerned that a fish will be shy of 100# braid, why not skip the fluoro and use a 4" steel leader. Seems easier. I must be missing something here.
"The Hybrid Leader System incorporates a 3 foot section of 80lb. fluorocarbon line tied directly to your main line with a double uni knot. The double uni knot is an extremely strong, but simple knot to tie. Instructions for tying this knot will be printed on the back of the packaging. The other end of the fluorocarbon line has a solid 4 inch wire leader accompanied by a #5 Stringease Stay Lok Snap which allows you to quickly and easily attach your lure of choice." http://www.stealthtackle.net/fishing_leaders.shtml |
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Location: 31 | AWH, That explanation makes sense; although in the video with Bob T, his system (that is pretty involved and not rigged on the water) uses a 130-150 lb fluorocarbon, yet I can understand that 80 lb might be max for system with a knot. Interesting stuff forsure!
Guest, it could be leader shy, and it could be to protect the fish when it rolls up in the line… or a combination of both. Either way, I think this kind of puts an exclamation point on 80 lb fluorocarbon being too light for muskies (without a wire lead), and with some intelligent dialogue we've increased awareness and think there's a better overall understanding now thanks to everyone who chimed in. I'll do my little research project on some actual muskies this summer, and report back with the results if anyone else is interested. |
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Posts: 909
| Big Rock - 3/25/2013 9:38 PM
I have had several fish boat side cut floro like butter on the hookset. Its not on my line anymore. Anything can fail, less likely with wire.
"SEVERAL" Youy wouldn't happen to tie your own would you? Just sayin! Most people never have problems and you've had "SEVERAL"
BRIAN  |
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Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | Gregg's leader with the knot is to help know when to start your figure 8. Primarly for inexperienced fisherpeople at night. |
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Posts: 284
Location: Eagan, MN | I've had two failures in perhaps 400 fish or so: one on 80lb flouro early in the flouro days and one on 200lb flouro. The 200lb was sliced thru on the hookset on about a 45" fish with almost no tension (the rod hardly loaded). The 80lb broke on a whale of a Mille Lacs fish, which was thrashing side to side under great pressure. I still use flouro because I've had several failures while using steel leaders as well: two where the leader loop attached to the split ring failed due to metal fatigue, one in which the wire bent severly and came back with an open snap, and one in which the fish jumped into the line, cutting the line on impact with the water, taking the metal leader and lure with her. Based on my own personal experiences, I felt that steel was no insurance against lost fish due to the use of metal vs. flouro. I tend to think that there is something to the earlier post speculating that fast, hard hooksets with flouro could be the culprit in some of these bite offs. It seemed to be on one of the ones I encountered. Brian |
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