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Location: minocqua, wi. | all the talk of being ticketed for position fishing you would think most of us have had a ticket.
in 15 years of fishing in Oneida and Vilas Counties as a resident who spends a lot of time on the water i have never been either ticketed or even approached while fishing this way on the water.
that said, i've had my boat and license checked at least once per season while out on the water or on the ice. |
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| Never been ticketed. Now, we're talking about a grand total of maybe 20 days over the last several years, so it's not much to go on. I have made it a point to talk to wardens whenever I've seen them, and ask about the position fishing rule as it relates to sucker fishing. They've all said basically the same thing. "You know when you're trolling. So do we. You know when you're trying to keep your suckers vertical and simply working around a hump or a bar. So do we. The only people who ever get in any trouble are the ones blatently trying to circumvent the law."
I'm betting that anyone who got a ticket deserved it. |
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Location: central Wisconsin | Never been an issue here. |
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Location: Smith Creek | I know a few wardens in Iron and Price and before trolling was hunky dory in Price they didn't give tickets to guys who were casting while dragging meat. Warnings, but no tickets. If guys were sitting on their hands while dragging meat they got tickets. So I was told. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | yah, sitting at the console with the power-pedal in your hands is a no-no ... lol |
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Location: Hayward, WI | No problems pulling suckers on non trolling lakes for me but I've only been running suckers the last couple years. Not a lot of days spent doing it but haven't been talked to about it yet. |
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Location: The desert | A warning.
Edit: I didn't answer in the poll.
Edited by Pointerpride102 3/7/2013 4:07 PM
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| So two people voted "yes" but didn't bother to share how that conversation with a warden went. Hmmmmm..... (edited to add: Now it's bumped up to three)
Warnings are not tickets. Even written warnings are not tickets. Those don't count as citations.
If you were ticketed and truthfully voted "yes," fess up. The conversation with the warden had to include some type of explanation of why you were cited.
I've asked a couple of wardens about this and those two admitted it was a huge gray area but left at their discretion. The two guys I spoke to about it both said that it is pretty easy to cite people for this at their discretion but that it's pretty clear when someone is legitimately dragging a sucker without the intent to troll and when someone is just dragging them along in a way that fits the definition of trolling.
I suppose you could have a gung ho warden who would be itching to bust people on this but my feeling is that it's pretty rare but you could get asked about it. Gotta be careful not to escalate the conversation and earn yourself a ticket for being a tool.
Edited by ulbian 3/7/2013 3:44 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | ulbian - 3/7/2013 3:42 PM
So two people voted "yes" but didn't bother to share how that conversation with a warden went. Hmmmmm..... (edited to add: Now it's bumped up to three)
Warnings are not tickets. Even written warnings are not tickets. Those don't count as citations.
If you were ticketed and truthfully voted "yes," fess up. The conversation with the warden had to include some type of explanation of why you were cited.
I've asked a couple of wardens about this and those two admitted it was a huge gray area but left at their discretion. The two guys I spoke to about it both said that it is pretty easy to cite people for this at their discretion but that it's pretty clear when someone is legitimately dragging a sucker without the intent to troll and when someone is just dragging them along in a way that fits the definition of trolling.
I suppose you could have a gung ho warden who would be itching to bust people on this but my feeling is that it's pretty rare but you could get asked about it. Gotta be careful not to escalate the conversation and earn yourself a ticket for being a tool.
anyone ticketed for trolling suckers was trolling suckers that's why ... and would be willing to break any fish and game laws or pad a poll and be the "guests" they are hiding in anonymity.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It's more likely you will be suckered for ticketing trolls. Hardly any wardens up here anymore, the DNR is near busted. Hope the economy picks up so revenue picks up and enforcement can pick up. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Never been ticketed. I think everyone who casts and drags meat at the same time could potentially be guilty of trolling if the warden really wanted to, but as long as it's not blatant chances are you are okay.
What's crazy is that I have never been stopped by a warden on Bone, Deer, Apple or any of the Hayward Lakes. Ever.
Then you go to the Croix and between Washington County, Pierce, St. Croix, Coast Guard, MN and WI DNR, you can count on getting stopped every time. |
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Posts: 86
| Ticketed, no. "Harrased", yes.
I had a guy try to "tell" (tell is a euphemism) me that if my trolling motor was down, and I used it at all...I was trolling. (Note: this is before the law was "clearly" re written last year.) Last year the law states that if you are casting and retrieving a lure and, at he same time, you are dragging a bait (sucker)...you are trolling.
While I whole hardheartedly believe I was not breaking any rules at the time, continuing to have a sucker in the water was not worth any grief. I go fishing to relax...not to argue with guys on shore if I am position fishing or trolling. So, I simply don't do it in Vilas county or where trolling is prohibited.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | by "a guy" or by a DNR officer? |
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| jonnysled - 3/7/2013 5:23 PM
by "a guy" or by a DNR officer?
By some average Joe...not a DNR Officer. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | Never stopped, but I don't fish suckers all that often.
In the past 7 years on the water in Sawyer county, I've seen three DNR wardens from a distance. I was checked once by the sheriff (boat registration, PFD, fishing license, etc.) on opening day in 2010. Nice guy - told me what the hot bite was on that morning.
I agree with what sworrall said - enforcement needs to be ramped up. Many people out there overbagging in the spring and getting away with it. I've used the DNR tip line but nothing came of it. |
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Location: 31 | I haven't used live bait for almost 20 years… and not that I have an objection to people who choose to use it, I'm just kind of an artificial lure purist. I find it hard to believe that 20% honestly received tickets…harassed, warned, or confused maybe, but that seems off. With that said, I still fail to see any difference between these two typical fall scenarios; one 2 man crew trolling 6 artificial lures, while another other 2 man crew is parked on one of the premier spots casting with 4 suckers soaking. Here's a quote from Jim Saric; “I can tell you that the position fishing rule has kept me from fishing suckers in Vilas and Oneida counties for the last 15 years. In fact Steve and I will not hold a fall school in the St. Germain area because of the confusion with the position fishing rule. I think the new proposal clarifies this.” Not that anyone died and left him in charge, but at least you know you're not alone if you also have; “confusion with the position fishing rule”. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | one of the key pieces that is being argued for the proposed change is to take the cloud away from this rule ... i argue there is no confusion. if you "troll" a sucker, you are "trolling a sucker". having not done it in 20 years you may not be as tuned to what is a very easy and straightforward way to cast and legally have a sucker out. my past 15 years it has been zero problem and the same for the predominate number of musky fishermen who don't try to get away with breaking the rule as intended.
those who claim to have been ticketed here (20%) won't even give their name, the lake, the agent who ticketed them or explanation provided by the warden.
jim has a big voice and apparently he's using it in the hopes that motor trolling is legalized. i don't know what his position is on number of lines, maybe you could ask him or bring us back a quote on that.
anyone saying they would avoid fishing vilas or oneida county lakes in the fall because of this rule is missing the boat ... it's not hard to do. just go ask a warden (as some have stated above) and you and i would imagine jim too would feel quite comfortable fishing meat in the fall.
i personally have to run sucker rods near the back of my boat or the sucker will swim forward and get tangled in the trolling motor. fall fishing in combination has to be done either on a wind-aided drift or very slowly on calmer water.
Edited by jonnysled 3/7/2013 6:52 PM
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Location: Oregon, WI | Would jigging while using trolling motor to move slowly be considered trolling because you never actually retrieve the bait? |
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| Legalize trolling and nobody gets tickets for confusing/outdated rules whether fishing in Vilas or any of the states 72 counties. The sun will come up tomorrow. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | you ever get a ticket doing it the way it's intended peaches? or do the guides you hire make you cast all the time?
Edited by jonnysled 3/7/2013 8:12 PM
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| Peaches - 3/7/2013 8:06 PM
Legalize trolling and nobody gets tickets for confusing/outdated rules whether fishing in Vilas or any of the states 72 counties. The sun will come up tomorrow.
Change the law, so nobody gets ticked for breaking it? |
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Location: oswego, il | I have only used suckers twice up north. untill the law changes I wont. I was stopped by a warden and checked once and asked him basically to define trolling a sucker. he told me if you have a sucker in the water and your trolling motor is on for any reason or length of time your trolling and he would give me a ticket. |
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Posts: 273
| Believe it or not Jon there are muskie and other game fish in counties outside of Vilas. Wardens do check in these counties and do not turn a blind eye to people breaking the rules. No tickets for me. Myself and many others would just like to see WI get out of the stone age. |
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| Addict the people that enforce the are the people want to change the law. I just happen to agree with them. |
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| Peaches - 3/7/2013 8:36 PM
Addict the people that enforce the are the people want to change the law. I just happen to agree with them.
Of course they do, Peaches. Having that law makes their job more difficult. They have to write citations and take tags and explain to anglers (who are offten angry jerkoffs) why they got a ticket. And then they have to go sit in court. It's time and paperwork and aggravation they do NOT need or want. |
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| I fished with Greg Bohn (guide) who many years ago was guiding two undercover DNR officers and was row trolling when he hooked a fish. As one of the men/officers brought the fish in he repositioned the boat with his trolling motor to avoid runing aground. He still had one line out and never thought twice about it. At the end of the day he was paid and tipped well. Several days later he was ticketed for motor trolling and after several thousands of dollars in legal fees beat the case. It was sad to see such a great and honest fisherman dragged though the B.S. and because of it he quit guiding in Wisconsin. I quess it doesn't matter what you think because if they're gunning for you you don't stand a chance. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Attend the CC meeting in April. Vote for or against the proposed changes.
We'll see how it shakes out.
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| Plan on it Steve. Might even be worth a trip to the Vilas meeting to watch the amish mafia try and rock the vote. |
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| Peaches - 3/7/2013 9:30 PM
Plan on it Steve. Might even be worth a trip to the Vilas meeting to watch the amish mafia try and rock the vote.
I'd think you'd be pretty surprised to see who is making the decisons up in Vilas these days. |
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Location: The desert | Peaches - 3/7/2013 7:26 PM
Believe it or not Jon there are muskie and other game fish in counties outside of Vilas. Wardens do check in these counties and do not turn a blind eye to people breaking the rules. No tickets for me. Myself and many others would just like to see WI get out of the stone age.
By Stone Age, you mean the last time the Bears won the Super Bowl?  |
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| We troll, drift and cast suckers what's the big hoopla about?
My father that is 87 can't hunt, but he can still set a hook, not much for casting but likes exploding muskies on suckers. I guess as long as he can get in the boat I would be open for an fine from stupid rules they make. I didn't know of any rules regarding sucker fishing! Is this just in these counties or state wide?
I feel almost sorry for the bait dealers that are overcharging us for suckers.  |
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| Maybe they should just ban sucker fishing. How's that for an idea? Then we all get to fish the "RIGHT WAY". Whether this question passes or not this year is really moot. It's going to keep on coming up until it does pass and gets the green light from the NRB. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | can we use electric reels too when it passes? my elbow gets too sore reeling in baits ...
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Location: Cudahy, Wisconsin | KrazyK - 3/7/2013 8:44 PM
I fished with Greg Bohn (guide) who many years ago was guiding two undercover DNR officers and was row trolling when he hooked a fish. As one of the men/officers brought the fish in he repositioned the boat with his trolling motor to avoid runing aground. He still had one line out and never thought twice about it. At the end of the day he was paid and tipped well. Several days later he was ticketed for motor trolling and after several thousands of dollars in legal fees beat the case. It was sad to see such a great and honest fisherman dragged though the B.S. and because of it he quit guiding in Wisconsin. I quess it doesn't matter what you think because if they're gunning for you you don't stand a chance.
^^^ totally false.
Edited by TUFFY 3/8/2013 7:34 AM
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Know people who straight up motor troll around here and don't get ticketed. Like Steve said, there are no wardens around. We've called on several violations over the last few years and EVERY TIME were told that they (enforcement) couldn't get out there.
JS |
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Location: oswego, il | anyone who turns on their trolling motor with a sucker in the water is violating the law. straight from a vilas county dnr officer to my ears. if its on your illegal. |
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| jbmuskie - 3/7/2013 5:32 PM
jonnysled - 3/7/2013 5:23 PM
by "a guy" or by a DNR officer?
By some average Joe...not a DNR Officer.
As in, the "average joe" that posts on here, or use name "average joe"?
Edited by Slow Rollin 3/8/2013 12:24 PM
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| Slow Rollin - 3/8/2013 12:23 PM jbmuskie - 3/7/2013 5:32 PM jonnysled - 3/7/2013 5:23 PM by "a guy" or by a DNR officer? By some average Joe...not a DNR Officer. As in, the "average joe" that posts on here, or use name "average joe"? GMGuide! |
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Location: Elgin, IL | Im not really at liberty to say per my attourney.... |
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| The president of our multi species fishing club in Illinois was fishing the Turtle Flambeau 3 years ago. He was up front casting the weeds bass fishing, his wife was sitting in the rear of the boat with a rod with a bobber and a minnow on it. The bobber was in the water. As he moved the boat forward they were approached by a warden and he stated you can not troll. Warden then issued a $264.00 dollar ticket. They and 9 other members of our club has not been back to Wisconsin since. |
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| TUFFY - 3/8/2013 7:33 AM
KrazyK - 3/7/2013 8:44 PM
I fished with Greg Bohn (guide) who many years ago was guiding two undercover DNR officers and was row trolling when he hooked a fish. As one of the men/officers brought the fish in he repositioned the boat with his trolling motor to avoid runing aground. He still had one line out and never thought twice about it. At the end of the day he was paid and tipped well. Several days later he was ticketed for motor trolling and after several thousands of dollars in legal fees beat the case. It was sad to see such a great and honest fisherman dragged though the B.S. and because of it he quit guiding in Wisconsin. I quess it doesn't matter what you think because if they're gunning for you you don't stand a chance.
^^^ totally false.
+1 |
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Location: Contrarian Island | so 15 yes votes and nobody wants to fess up and tell their story? seems fishy! |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | allowing dragging meat with one rod per person. Sure. Allowing unrestricted 3 line trolling on all lakes statewide? Terrible idea. This is not just a musky issue. If trolling is legal. Then it is LEGAL. It will not be done just by guys dragging suckers... it will occur for walleyes and muskies all months of the season... The big picture folks... its not a good idea to pass unrestricted 3 line trolling. Even back trolling was outlawed... these practices have been outlawed for a reason... |
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Location: 31 | BNelson - 3/11/2013 9:45 AM so 15 yes votes and nobody wants to fess up and tell their story? seems fishy! ;-) Right, 15 votes simply can’t be accurate (like a lot of these polls), and the results should be disregarded. I didn't vote because “misinformation” like this is just counterproductive.
Even so, in my opinion a better poll would've been if people find the current regulations confusing or not. However, even on this thread there’s been enough non-solicited posts that dispels Sleds contention that there is not much confusion or concern when people soak suckers while casting.
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Location: Minocqua, WI | On the issue of this polls accuracy... Nobody is getting tickets due to thin enforcement... I logged around 100 days on the water musky fishing alone last season in vilas/oneida/iron/price counties, many times on popular lakes/chains... I saw one warden all season and he was driving down the highway just coming out of the launch. There will never be enough wardens to enforce these policies.
*edited for typo
Edited by WI Duck Guide 3/11/2013 10:39 AM
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| I didn't vote in the poll, no reason to as I've never fished Wisconsin and might not ever. I have stayed out of this debate and will continue to do so. All I can say is for those who question the accuracy of the poll, what did you expect? It's an anonymous poll on a message board where you don't even need a log-in. I'm not gonna lie, I was almost tempted to vote Yes just to rile you guys up. I didn't, but I can see why so many people did. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | the reason i put this out there is to dispel the notion that trolling should be legalized due to the "problem" of confusion when "trolling" suckers. it's an effective scare-tactic to go along with the bullying and that's about it.
WI Duck Guide ... good assessment of the larger issue at-hand.
Edited by jonnysled 3/11/2013 12:06 PM
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Location: Madison, WI | From reading this thread, it sounds like at least some people have had issues with or are confused by position fishing.
WI Duck Guide - "The big picture folks... its not a good idea to pass unrestricted 3 line trolling. Even back trolling was outlawed... these practices have been outlawed for a reason..."
Why is it not a good idea to pass unrestricted 3 line trolling?
Why were the practices of back trolling outlawed?
Edited by dcorfman 3/11/2013 12:24 PM
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Location: Madison, WI | http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=19970608&id=vM4iAAAA...
This Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article points out another person who had an issue with the position fishing regulation. |
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| I am sure that is just the media bias;) |
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Location: Roscoe IL | sworrall - 3/7/2013 4:01 PM
It's more likely you will be suckered for ticketing trolls. Hardly any wardens up here anymore, the DNR is near busted. Hope the economy picks up so revenue picks up and enforcement can pick up.
So true! I just don't see the wardens on any of the lakes in the Tomahawk area any more. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | who - 3/10/2013 7:06 PM
TUFFY - 3/8/2013 7:33 AM
KrazyK - 3/7/2013 8:44 PM
I fished with Greg Bohn (guide) who many years ago was guiding two undercover DNR officers and was row trolling when he hooked a fish. As one of the men/officers brought the fish in he repositioned the boat with his trolling motor to avoid runing aground. He still had one line out and never thought twice about it. At the end of the day he was paid and tipped well. Several days later he was ticketed for motor trolling and after several thousands of dollars in legal fees beat the case. It was sad to see such a great and honest fisherman dragged though the B.S. and because of it he quit guiding in Wisconsin. I quess it doesn't matter what you think because if they're gunning for you you don't stand a chance.
^^^ totally false.
+1
what's the real story on this one ...?? |
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Location: Minocqua, WI |
This is a good post and the article covers why motor trolling was outlawed altogether... Its so sad to see that these same issues are back in the news today as if it were the first time... A lot of pushing from people who troll elsewhere and think its "fine" to do here. We have a suspending musky population and an equally important walleye component that will be damaged by allowing trolling in our waters... this is a fact, not a suggestion. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Ahh, guys,.....Whats a sucker??
Never fished for Muskies with live bait. ever. |
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Location: The desert | jonnysled - 3/11/2013 12:05 PM
who - 3/10/2013 7:06 PM
TUFFY - 3/8/2013 7:33 AM
KrazyK - 3/7/2013 8:44 PM
I fished with Greg Bohn (guide) who many years ago was guiding two undercover DNR officers and was row trolling when he hooked a fish. As one of the men/officers brought the fish in he repositioned the boat with his trolling motor to avoid runing aground. He still had one line out and never thought twice about it. At the end of the day he was paid and tipped well. Several days later he was ticketed for motor trolling and after several thousands of dollars in legal fees beat the case. It was sad to see such a great and honest fisherman dragged though the B.S. and because of it he quit guiding in Wisconsin. I quess it doesn't matter what you think because if they're gunning for you you don't stand a chance.
^^^ totally false.
+1
what's the real story on this one ...??
Someone had too many beers and made crap up? Fisherman wouldn't do that, would they?? |
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Location: Roscoe IL | Interesting thread. What's even more interesting is, from October until end of season in Wisconsin most every single boat I see is dragging a sucker behind it. But there are so many here saying they just wouldn't use live bait. I guess the people that fish in October through EOS fishing in Madison and most of the lakes in any general direction from there just don't post on this site. Funny, R&H musky shop sells out of suckers on a regular basis too. I still don't understand why using a QS rig on live bait is taboo to some? |
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| WI Duck Guide, how is trolling going to be hurt the fishery? |
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Location: 31 | WI Duck Guide - 3/11/2013 2:39 PM This is a good post and the article covers why motor trolling was outlawed altogether... Its so sad to see that these same issues are back in the news today as if it were the first time... A lot of pushing from people who troll elsewhere and think its "fine" to do here. We have a suspending musky population and an equally important walleye component that will be damaged by allowing trolling in our waters... this is a fact, not a suggestion. I'd be interested to know where the facts you speak of regarding motor trolling damaging the fishery came from because I've found nothing to support such a statement lately. As a matter of fact, I have only found statements by biologists that motor trolling is a non-issue. Unless you consider Jordan Weeks, Senior Fisheries Biologist with the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources in LaCrosse is only offing a suggestion here; “First off, let me say that I understand your concern. Believe me, there was much discussion surrounding this proposal in many meetings. The part you don't have quite right is that “rule simplification” is not the only reason this change is being proposed. Biology and increasing angling opportunity are also important components.
I’ll address these briefly, as I know you already have a good grasp of both. IF our current size and bag limits work (which we believe they do for the most part), THEN the method by which one captures the fish is irrelevant. Essentially a dead fish is a dead fish (it doesn’t matter if it was caught trolling or angling). Also, if trolling was significantly more efficient than casting you could not make this argument and there is no data available that indicates that is true.
If, in the unlikely event fish populations are impacted by this potential change, then it’s the Biologist’s job to remedy the situation by changing size or bag limits, increasing stocking, or modifying season structure or habitat (that’s our job). This change will also increase angling opportunity. Personally I don’t fish in Vilas and Oneida as much as I would if this passes. I like to have the option and believe that position fishing IS trolling (I let my training in Physics tell me it is impossible to keep a line vertical while working the trolling motor). I also firmly believe that some people are in the same boat as I. Opportunity is where the position fishing rule comes into play (for musky anglers). If the wording of the current rule caused some anglers to worry about a ticket or not fish in fear of a ticket then this change needs to be made. Fishing and hunting rules that need interpretation are bad rules (position fishing is the poster child for bad rules).
This post in not intended to change your mind or attack you in any way as I know you have defended the Department many a time on these message boards. Thank you for that.
I’m merely trying to explain the rationale for the proposed rule and dispel some myths.” I would ask how one 2 man crew trolling 6 artificial lures is suppose to be harming the fishery more than the same 2 man crew casting with 4 suckers soaking?
Edited by Jerry Newman 3/11/2013 5:07 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | jerry ... you planning on "soaking" those suckers in june/july/august? ... |
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Location: Madison, WI | WI Duck Guide - 3/11/2013 2:39 PM
This is a good post and the article covers why motor trolling was outlawed altogether... Its so sad to see that these same issues are back in the news today as if it were the first time... A lot of pushing from people who troll elsewhere and think its "fine" to do here. We have a suspending musky population and an equally important walleye component that will be damaged by allowing trolling in our waters... this is a fact, not a suggestion.
WI Duck Guide - "We have a suspending musky population and an equally important walleye component that will be damaged by allowing trolling in our waters... this is a fact, not a suggestion."
Where/what is the basis for this statement?
jonnysled, if you are concerned about scare tactics, why are you not calling out statements like this?
Edited by dcorfman 3/11/2013 5:45 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i figure the guy has a right to answer so i'm waiting to hear what he has to say ...
the sucker trolling legal piece is speaking for itself ...
interesting to see the late voter rally ... kinda like a cook county election.
Edited by jonnysled 3/11/2013 5:29 PM
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| A lot of the lakes in Vilas are small, deep, oligotrophic lakes, devoid of the typical structure we most commonly fish. They are low desnity fisheries that rely mainly on natural reproduction to sustain a healthy population of muskies. What WI Duck guide is getting at is that casting, in the traditional sense, and in the way most of us approach it, quite simply does not put a lure in front of the fish most of the time. There are certainly fish to be had, but they are the fish who have moved up onto that structure to feed. Easy pickens so to speak. The vast majority of fish, however, often suspend in places and relating to structure in a way that makes them difficult to target casting. The fish are "out THERE" and often at a depth that you'd be wasting your time throwing a bucktail in 10 feet of water. You can go out there and fish like Travis does, but that's not for everyone. You can build yourself a row troller and target them that way. But that's not for everyone either. Open up these lakes to trolling, with multiple lines, and you're creating a situation where one could cover an entire lake in an afternoon. And when that lake has a population of maybe 100 muskies, 80 of which live in a place where they never see a lure go by, it's not difficult to see how a handful of boats could easily impact the fishery, especially when said fishery has a 40" size limit, and only supports a population of fish over 40" because nobody is fishing for them. There is little stocking and even less money for stocking. There is little enforcement and even less money and personnel for enforcement. We're talking about infertile lakes with limited forage, and no means to replenish them other than natural reproduction. Opening up trolling would provide a tremendous fishing opportunity. But only for a very short time, as those fisheries are really only what they are because they are relatively unfished.
Once can easily point to some other lake in some other place that hasn't been hurt by trolling, but take regular stocking out of that equation, and what does it look like? When you start taking water chemistry, avilable forage, etc. into account, it becomes easy to see why 40" is still a big fish in Northern WI. Factor in the stresses of climate change, invasive species, spearing, exploding bass populations...
Nobody can point to studies that prove trolling would hurt the fisheries because there have never been studies done on these types of waters before and after trolling was allowed.
But if ten more fish are caught in a given weekend in the summer and one of those fish is accidentally killed, on a lot of lakes you've just wiped out 20% of the reproducing population of muskies in that lake in a single season. |
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Location: Madison, WI | jonnysled - 3/11/2013 5:27 PM
i figure the guy has a right to answer so i'm waiting to hear what he has to say ...
the sucker trolling legal piece is speaking for itself ...
interesting to see the late voter rally ... kinda like a cook county election.
What is the sucker trolling piece saying? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | 17 anonymous votes with zero commentary or proof of a ticket, warden name, lake location or story to go along with it
overwhelming number of fishermen work within the current law without concern and fish as it's intended
the "clear up the trolling laws" piece doesn't apply
they are 1-line musky counties until October-November (6-7 week season) yet people think adding 3-line motor trolling won't affect anything ...
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Location: oswego, il | EA, just because you can troll does not mean you will catch more muskies. there are places I,fish where slowing down, casting and dragging a sucker is far more productive. my better days have been between the 55's in water temp. with all the comparables that are in wisconsin, I just dont see it being an issue. just because you troll a lure near a fksh does not mean it will eat. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | how much sucker fishing you doing in june, july and august Todd? |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Wasn't there concern on here last year from some MN fisherman over others trolling too deep in MN when the water temps were mid to upper forties? I could have sworn I saw guys pleading with others to please stop trolling deep in the water column as they were effectively catching fish, and pulling them up to the warm upper layer temps. I believe they were finding lots of floaters and thus the concern.
This is coming from guys that have been allowed to troll for some time now, and don't quote me on MN regs but I think one line.
How upset would I be making people if I were allowed to troll two of my 3 lines 35' down with wire in 78° water temps? Is that potential for hurting a fishery?
I don't know of anyone that has been ticketed yet for dragging a sucker and casting. It's pretty easy to drift with the boat with suckers out and cast while bumping the trolling motor to stay in position, or running it into the wind to hold on a spot. DNR personnel know what most musky fisherman are doing, and I am sure only ticket if it is blatent.
Regulations confusing..Maybe only if you aren't reading the regs in my opinion. It clearly states where you can troll, and where you cannot. If you are worried whether what you are doing is trolling than perhaps let your conscious decide what you should be doing. The size limits and bag limits are much more confusing than that of trolling or not trolling, but I don't see a push to make that the same state wide.
Edited by CiscoKid 3/11/2013 7:35 PM
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jonnysled - 3/11/2013 7:04 PM how much sucker fishing you doing in june, july and august Todd? No, I really have no interest in using any live bait anymore. However, 20 some years ago I used to fish smaller suckers while I was casting until July as I recall. I'm pretty sure the local bait shops still sell live bait all summer (especially for walleye), so that three line option with live bait is there even if people are not taking advantage of it. Actually, your question seems a little insincere Sled because you simply cherry picked one point and jammed on it, but only after diluting the basic premise. So, I'll just ask you point blank; can you explain how a 2 man crew trolling six artificial lures is going to harm the fishery more than the same two-man crew casting with 4 suckers during June, September, October, and November? Point taken on the deep water trolling, but what's preventing someone from drifting the center of these lakes with deep suckers while sitting on their rump? What Jordan said on record... no comments? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | you ever try to keep a sucker alive in june, july, august jerry? apparently not.
it's not cherry-picking, it's stating the obvious and pretty easy actually to anyone familiar with what is going on and what potentially changes as a result.
it's pretty obvious i (and many more) disagree with jordan. it's why the law is what it is today and how it will hopefully continue to be.
my fear is that trolling will trump all (like the lazy baiting of deer/bears for armchair weekenders) and that we will eventually end up being negotiated to a line-limit like they are in MN. as it stands it's pretty much a single line summer (june-sept.) and when temps. drop down below 55 deg. (oct. - nov.) it's multi-line sucker time.
3-line trolling in june, july, august vs. single line casting (the way it is today) will make a significant impact ... |
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Location: 31 | CiscoKid - 3/11/2013 7:34 PM Wasn't there concern on here last year from some MN fisherman over others trolling too deep in MN when the water temps were mid to upper forties? I could have sworn I saw guys pleading with others to please stop trolling deep in the water column as they were effectively catching fish, and pulling them up to the warm upper layer temps. I believe they were finding lots of floaters and thus the concern. This is coming from guys that have been allowed to troll for some time now, and don't quote me on MN regs but I think one line. How upset would I be making people if I were allowed to troll two of my 3 lines 35' down with wire in 78° water temps? Is that potential for hurting a fishery? I don't know of anyone that has been ticketed yet for dragging a sucker and casting. It's pretty easy to drift with the boat with suckers out and cast while bumping the trolling motor to stay in position, or running it into the wind to hold on a spot. DNR personnel know what most musky fisherman are doing, and I am sure only ticket if it is blatent. Regulations confusing..Maybe only if you aren't reading the regs in my opinion. It clearly states where you can troll, and where you cannot. If you are worried whether what you are doing is trolling than perhaps let your conscious decide what you should be doing. The size limits and bag limits are much more confusing than that of trolling or not trolling, but I don't see a push to make that the same state wide. Travis, I hear what you're saying and you're delivering some valid, well thought out points. But regarding whether or not some people find the existing position fishing rule is confusing, many have already stated that there is a problem with it right here on this thread, throw in the likes of a seasoned veteran like Saric who has not fished there with suckers for 15 years and what do you have; “I can tell you that the position fishing rule has kept me from fishing suckers in Vilas and Oneida counties for the last 15 years. In fact Steve and I will not hold a fall school in the St. Germain area because of the confusion with the position fishing rule. I think the new proposal clarifies this.” It's hard to put forth a better argument than what Jordan Weeks said about position fishing equaling trolling, as well as it being poster child for bad rules; “position fishing IS trolling (I let my training in Physics tell me it is impossible to keep a line vertical while working the trolling motor). I also firmly believe that some people are in the same boat as I. Opportunity is where the position fishing rule comes into play (for musky anglers). If the wording of the current rule caused some anglers to worry about a ticket or not fish in fear of a ticket then this change needs to be made. Fishing and hunting rules that need interpretation are bad rules (position fishing is the poster child for bad rules).” Everyone is very well entrenched and now it's just a matter of getting out the vote… see you at the polls. |
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| I don’t quite get why some feel that the issue of ‘Position Fishing’ with a Sucker is a gray area. The law is written pretty clearly. It says that you can use your trolling motor to hold the boat in place over structure, or maybe to fight the effects of wind. But you are using the motor to PREVENT the boat from moving. But if you are intentionally moving the boat all around the lake while a Sucker is hanging over the edge---then it’s not position fishing---you’re trolling. Live bait or artificial bait, no difference---it’s trolling a bait. Behind the boat or over the side---it’s still trolling. Slow or a little faster---it’s still trolling.
There seems to be a double standard at play here. If a guy harvests a fish illegally by snagging it, well that’s breaking the law and not right, and some people may be rightfully indignant. Or if we keep a fish that’s too short, it’s illegal and not right. But…if we take a Musky by trolling a Sucker when that’s not legal either, how is that OK?
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Jerry Newman - 3/11/2013 8:52 PM
many have already stated that there is a problem with it right here on this thread, throw in the likes of a seasoned veteran like Saric who has not fished there with suckers for 15 years
18 out of 119 = many??
and all anonymous with no stories except one claiming that he was yelled at by some dude, another report from a newspaper that is refuted by credible sources (still want to hear the story on that one).
Jim Saric - sells magazines, produces shows, sells spots at fishing clinics ... from his perspective i'd probably want the same thing he does. easy fishing, sell more magazines, book more clinics and get more shows produced. he has commercial interests and others have different interests. not a slight on anyone, just different people wanting different things for different reasons.
saying summertime trolling in vilas and oneida counties won't be "different" is simply not true.
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Location: 31 | jonnysled - 3/11/2013 9:01 PM Jerry Newman - 3/11/2013 8:52 PM many have already stated that there is a problem with it right here on this thread, throw in the likes of a seasoned veteran like Saric who has not fished there with suckers for 15 years 18 out of 119 = many?? and all anonymous with no stories except one claiming that he was yelled at by some dude, another report from a newspaper that is refuted by credible sources (still want to hear the story on that one ). Jim Saric - sells magazines, produces shows, sells spots at fishing clinics ... from his perspective i'd probably want the same thing he does. easy fishing, sell more magazines, book more clinics and get more shows produced. he has commercial interests and others have different interests. not a slight on anyone, just different people wanting different things for different reasons. saying summertime trolling in vilas and oneida counties won't be "different" is simply not true. Sled, I told you that I have sucker fished in June, late June wasn't really that much different than early September… obviously dependent on the weather/how deep your pockets are. You can disagree all you want with what Jordan said, but he's an expert and you're not, and you can't point to anything recent to contradict the veracity of his statements other than how easy it is to see with “anyone familiar”. But are the people that are “so familiar with it” also wanting to “perhaps” keep it to themselves, or maybe you are just a little too close to it? Anyway, you're effectively saying that there's really no difference between trolling and casting with suckers, except for those two or three months. I'm honestly not buying what you're selling because if you were really concerned about the three lines having such an impact, I'd think you'd be lobbying for one line all year. However you want to argue it go right ahead, I certainly understand your fear, but please just try to keep it between the ditches between now and then… I'll see you at the polls.
Edited by Jerry Newman 3/11/2013 9:17 PM
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| Personal experience on 300-600 acre lakes, casting is more effective than trolling for catching fish. On larger bodies of water trolling is a great way to cover water. Smaller lakes, especially suspended fish you are better off casting. You can keep your boat over the bait fish are keep your lures in the zone longer. It is more effective and efficient to cast structure and open water on smaller lakes. Again this has been my experience on this size of lake. BR |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Jerry I will be honest in saying I am glad Saric and others don't come here in the Fall to fish suckers!  Some of the lakes are crowded enough with guys that currently troll suckers up an down the breaks with no regard to another angler (not syaing jim wouldn't mind others mind you).
I am sure a lot of guys simply want it as they are drooling over the thought of being able to troll open water in the summertime on some of the little gems of the northwoods. Heck I am one of them! Part of me would love to see it pass, but the other part knows it *could* be bad. Yes there is speculation in that.
If you thought the high water temp concern on here was bad before just wait until we can troll in Vilas, Oneida, and the other counties with small, deep lakes. How much flack will I take for running my baits consistently and efficiently 20+ feet deep?
Mmmmmmm the more I think of it the more I hope it passes. I'm getting all twitchy just thinking of the possabilities.
Jerry I understand why you want it. You are trying as hard to convince us why it would be good for your own motives just like those of us that are against are trying to convince you why it's not good. However you are just thinking of muskies. Most here are just thinking of muskies. Logical being a musky site. The WALLEYES will take a beating. I hope I am wrong though.
Edited by CiscoKid 3/11/2013 9:25 PM
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | BenR - 3/11/2013 9:15 PM
Personal experience on 300-600 acre lakes, casting is more effective than trolling for catching fish. On larger bodies of water trolling is a great way to cover water. Smaller lakes, especially suspended fish you are better off casting. You can keep your boat over the bait fish are keep your lures in the zone longer. It is more effective and efficient to cast structure and open water on smaller lakes. Again this has been my experience on this size of lake. BR
Until you find a small lake with whitefish and need to keep your bait, a big one at that, in that 30' zone to contact the biggies of the lake. Only one way to do that effectively and efficiently. I believe Gelb has taken up that method so I find it hard to believe casting is the best method. Sure some days it might be. Others not so much. Gelb row TROLLS for a reason, and I feel has proven it is more effective in some cases than casting in N. WI.
Edited by CiscoKid 3/11/2013 9:29 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | try just reading what i type instead of telling me what i said. it's more accurate that way. i know it's frustrating for you but give it a shot. travis and WI-Duckguide are saying the same thing, all from experience. nobody is trying to "keep it from anyone" ... they are wanting folks to consider that there are some key changes that will come about and not all good ... again, perspective.
our president claims a lot of things and is the "expert" too ... i don't agree with him on many things either.
if i were an older guy who got sore casting and wanted to have my picture taken with a huge musky or fill my lungelog with numbers i would probably vote the same way that you want me to.
i just want jerry to write his secrets on sucker fishing in 70 - 85 degree water, or take me with him. i'll buy the book.
Edited by jonnysled 3/11/2013 9:30 PM
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| CiscoKid - 3/11/2013 9:21 PM
BenR - 3/11/2013 9:15 PM
Personal experience on 300-600 acre lakes, casting is more effective than trolling for catching fish. On larger bodies of water trolling is a great way to cover water. Smaller lakes, especially suspended fish you are better off casting. You can keep your boat over the bait fish are keep your lures in the zone longer. It is more effective and efficient to cast structure and open water on smaller lakes. Again this has been my experience on this size of lake. BR
Until you find a small lake with whitefish and need to keep your bait, a big one at that, in that 30' zone to contact the biggies of the lake. Only one way to do that effectively and efficiently. I believe Gelb has taken up that method so I find it hard to believe casting is the best method. Sure some days it might be. Others not so much. Gelb row TROLLS for a reason, and I feel has proven it is more effective in some cases than casting in N. WI.
What is the only way to keep a bait down there, jigging a bondy? I know gelb catches some fish, but I don't think he catches enough fish to ruin a fishery and nobody probably knows how to troll the lakes better than anyone I guess. Honestly how many fish does he score a season? BR |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | and there is no powdered sugar on the muzzle of the 50 pounders he catches ... :0) |
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| jonnysled - 3/11/2013 9:35 PM
and there is no powdered sugar on the muzzle of the 50 pounders he catches ... :0)
Lets be honest, he caught one 50lber correct? however I will concede that it did not stay in the system and perhaps trollers are bad for the survival of fishing;) BR |
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Location: 31 | CiscoKid - 3/11/2013 9:17 PM I'm getting all twitchy just thinking of the possabilities. Jerry I understand why you want it. You are trying as hard to convince us why it would be good for your own motives just like those of us that are against are trying to convince you why it's not good. You're so wrong Travis… my only concern is to protect the resource. Therefore, my plan is to be on these lakes as much as possible when they first open up to trolling, but only to educate and release the fish properly before the pontoon boaters can get a hold of them J Haha… LOL, you bet I'm drooling… but I also happen to agree with what the experts are saying or I wouldn't be debating it. If it passes we should fish! |
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| jonnysled - 3/11/2013 9:01 PM
18 out of 119 = many??
1 out of infinity = too many. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | if it passes i just wanna watch you fishing suckers in the summer ... |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Matt DeVos - 3/11/2013 9:44 PM
jonnysled - 3/11/2013 9:01 PM
18 out of 119 = many??
1 out of infinity = too many.
unless they were trolling them and breaking the law |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | Nobody will be fishing suckers in summer and thats the problem... and what about walleyes... this is not a musky only issue. If trolling is legal, it is LEGAL for everything and everybody. I know what I could do running a trolling spread here and there are plenty of guys who have way more trolling experience than I. Just think about your favorite small to med sized lake, which is almost all of them around here by comparison to even modest MN lakes, and watching a few boats running full spread of trolling rigs all summer and fall. Many big, slow growing fish using open water refuge away from angling pressure for much of the year will be exposed. For those who cast, it should make your stomach churn. If you dont get why this is a terrible idea, then you are either one greedy SOB licking your chops at the thought of it or your ignoring all of the current knowledge we possess about big muskies and walleyes in northern WI. They could easily make position fish legal without opening up 3 line motor trolling across the board. |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | .
Edited by WI Duck Guide 3/11/2013 11:20 PM
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Location: Minocqua, WI | As for the "wait until the biologists says wrong and then fix it idea" Jerry Newman; Everyone is so happy to say how the DNR doesnt know anything about our fisheries and wildlife populations or how to manage them, but the minute their "study" supports your cause they are suddenly 100% right about everything no matter how much is actually known. The impact this would have on the fishery will be the only study available on any scale... look at the issues it has caused in the 70's 80's etc... Pretty sure all of the technology we have these days would make those lakes pretty small in hurry when you can cover so much water with such good tech. Large WI muskies and walleyes are slow growing. They need time and reprieve from angling pressure. A 11-12 year old female musky up here is around 40 inches; that same fish on say Vermillion or St. Claire could easily be a 4 footer. Also, once our fish surpass that 4' mark they grow much slower... .25 to .50 inch per year is considered decent to good. Some don't even reach 48" by 20 years old. Add on top of that the much smaller lake size which makes fish easier to target and is composed of a much smaller population of fish, especially trophies, to begin with... its not a good idea. "A method of catching fish is irrelevant?" Not if said method is increasing catch rates, thereby increasing fish handling which will undoubtedly increase mortality, especially during the warmer monthes when fish are deep and brought to the surface as Travis mentioned. Tell me how much it "wont hurt" but please first tell me "what will it help?" The problem is, it doesn't have to hurt much to have an impact on trophy fish. And thats what we all want in northern WI right...?
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Location: 31 | Here's something for everyone to honestly contemplate… let's hypothetically say that you can either keep the three line deal, but then it's open to trolling. OR the law is changed to only one line mirroring Minnesota, one or the other… not both. Have you made your choice?
Frankly, I just don't buy that some of you are so worried about the resource yet wanting to maintain the three lines for their traditional fall fishing. What I see here is a few sportsmen fighting change because they're afraid of it, even though there's no scientific basis to maintain an unjustifiable status quo.
Sled, I'm convinced you can win every debate through attrition.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm still interested in your warm-water musky sucker tactics ... if you have mastered that you'd make the cover of the magazine your reference materials come from.
do you have anything yourself to say?
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | Jerry Newman - 3/11/2013 11:25 PM
Here's something for everyone to honestly contemplate… let's hypothetically say that you can either keep the three line deal, but then it's open to trolling. OR the law is changed to only one line mirroring Minnesota, one or the other… not both. Have you made your choice?
One line is fine by me. I simply don't have enough arms to cast two lines at the same time. |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | Jerry, in what state do you currently reside and how many days a year do you log on WI waters? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Geez.
I am on the fence on this one. I have talked to a couple folks from the DNR recently who do NOT want the trolling proposal passed. Not top dawgs, but none the less....
Will trolling in Vilas and Oneida change the face of fishing up here? Yes, I think so. Will I be occasionally annoyed at trollers pulling boards a long way from the boat on lakes that are tiny? Yes, I think so. Is the sky falling? No, I don't think so.
Logic has a part in the discussion...it has to. What point is there in arguing that someone might make a different choice if that choice is not the one on the table? To answer the question anyway, I'd vote for one line in the soft water and two on the ice, but that's me and that isn't an option. I'd vote for trolling up here if it was one line or even two per angler, but that isn't an option. I don't think there will be a major impact on Muskie populations here either way. I do think it will not be pretty on Julia or George when there's 5 boats out there with 9 lines out trolling cranks for 'eyes at 1.5 mph and three trolling muskies, there won't be much water uncovered by a pathway of boards and folks will get testy, I see that on freaking Winnebago, for cripes sake. I am absolutely certain that will happen occasionally. I still don't know which way my vote will go, but I do know my son will vote no.
And I'd vote for a 15 bag of panfish, only 10 of which can be crappies.
I do think more muskies will be caught by walleye anglers. Is that bad? Maybe...maybe not. I KNOW if the law passes I won't troll for muskies much at all, but will pull spinners for 'eyes from time to time and really enjoy it. I do know the 'eye bag may be 1 or even zero on some water this Spring at this rate. That is a buzz kill.
I do know the reason the law was changed last time is because it wasn't put into place to allow power trolling muskies.
And I do know I'm glad I like to fish bass and panfish. And that I know some out of the way muskie water.
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | One line per angler would be easier to stomach, but I think I would still vote no.
I agree with what Steve said above! |
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| WI Duck Guide - 3/11/2013 11:43 PM
Jerry, in what state do you currently reside and how many days a year do you log on WI waters?
Not sure this is relevant, I don't think you need to reside or fish WI a certain amount to vote. It would seem none of us are fish biologist or at least not good ones based on this thread. Will be interesting to see the results. BR |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | BenR - 3/12/2013 7:22 AM
WI Duck Guide - 3/11/2013 11:43 PM
Jerry, in what state do you currently reside and how many days a year do you log on WI waters?
Not sure this is relevant, I don't think you need to reside or fish WI a certain amount to vote. It would seem none of us are fish biologist or at least not good ones based on this thread. Will be interesting to see the results. BR
Pretty sure the question was posed to get a feel for if Jerry is in-tune with what the fishing, and ethics, are currently for the area in question. I would have to agree with the asking of the question as if you are not familiar with the area, and how anglers currently conduct themselves, then I am not sure you can argue it will not be a big deal in the area. No offense to Jerry or anyone else that may not fish the area but I do hold the opinion of guys like J. Sloan much higher than yours as I know he spends time in the area.
Also if you don’t fish walleye or care about them I don’t respect your opinion much as you need to look at the whole picture, and not just the small world of musky fishing. It’s pretty hard to understand where someone is coming from if you don’t have the same experiences as that person. So if you don’t fish the area how can you understand and be empathetic to what is being discussed?
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| CiscoKid - 3/12/2013 7:36 AM
BenR - 3/12/2013 7:22 AM
WI Duck Guide - 3/11/2013 11:43 PM
Jerry, in what state do you currently reside and how many days a year do you log on WI waters?
Not sure this is relevant, I don't think you need to reside or fish WI a certain amount to vote. It would seem none of us are fish biologist or at least not good ones based on this thread. Will be interesting to see the results. BR
Pretty sure the question was posed to get a feel for if Jerry is in-tune with what the fishing, and ethics, are currently for the area in question. I would have to agree with the asking of the question as if you are not familiar with the area, and how anglers currently conduct themselves, then I am not sure you can argue it will not be a big deal in the area. No offense to Jerry or anyone else that may not fish the area but I do hold the opinion of guys like J. Sloan much higher than yours as I know he spends time in the area.
Also if you don’t fish walleye or care about them I don’t respect your opinion much as you need to look at the whole picture, and not just the small world of musky fishing. It’s pretty hard to understand where someone is coming from if you don’t have the same experiences as that person. So if you don’t fish the area how can you understand and be empathetic to what is being discussed?
Many of us to fish it, but no longer do. It is not hard to understand the culture in the area at all and just reading the thread reenforces much of this. You can point to walleye and other topics, but this is a muskie board and many people are going to vote based on their preference and that of the WDNR. Also if take a look at some of the walleye boards and other muskie boards, outside of the vilas vocal few there does not seem to be too much opposition to trolling in the area, will be interesting to see how the vote turns out. BR |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Many of us to fish it, but no longer do.
Maybe that is why the fishing is continually getting better? Less pressure and less delayed mortality? |
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| CiscoKid - 3/12/2013 7:49 AM
Many of us to fish it, but no longer do.
Maybe that is why the fishing is continually getting better? Less pressure and less delayed mortality? ; )
Could be Travis, but I think, thanks to your internet pro influence I am becoming at least passable when it comes to muskie fishing. BR |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Jerry the guys in New York need an expert to come in and let em know what they need to do ...
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=82... |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | Exactly Travis... If you want to tell me all about OUR HOME and OUR FISHERY... maybe you need to spend some time on OUR waters... I logged around 100 days on these waters for muskies this season alone and have been fishing the area in some capacity for the past 20 years... Guys like J. Sloan and a host of others have forgotten more about these waters than the weekend warriors and those who "use to fish it" will ever know. The fact is, if you are not in tune with this fishery, you have no reason to object and attempt to nullify the legitimate concerns of those who have based their lives around it. |
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Location: Minocqua, WI | And for the record, one line trolling would be the way to solve this issue and it should have a seasonal restriction to avoid mortality when fish are deep and water temps are higher. The bait shops here dont even sell suckers for muskies until fall and if your "bringing your own" your breaking the law anyway. However, as Steve said, we have to go with the options that are on the table... Its 3 line trolling or no change this time around. |
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| A few of the voices on here get paid to use a public water to their benefit. The hypocracy of getting paid by using a public resource and then claiming it at "ours" is classic. My guess by WI Duck Guide, he probably also guides fishing on these lakes. I appreciate J. Sloan's thoughts on this topic, they seem well thought out. BR |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | jason is getting old and just too tired and sore to row all day long ... his opinion is jaded |
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Location: 31 | I have had a Wisconsin fishing license every year for the past 30+ years and averaged between 35 and 40 full days on Wisconsin waters the last two years. The most days I have ever spent on the water in a year muskie fishing is just over 60, but that was mostly in Canada on Lake of the Woods (1989). Nowadays, mainly due to elbow problems (from fishing) I can no longer cast all day and through default reluctantly consider myself a troller… although casting is my first love.
Now with that out of the way, even though one line per angler is not on the table I thought it was a pertinent question considering how much the opposition thought that three line trolling would devastate the fishery. In my humble opinion, three lines is three lines and I thought that it was a fair comparison for the months of September-October-November. I'm no expert in conservation... but Wisconsin's big gun biologists (on record) mutually agree it will not harm the fishery. My point of view stands on its own merit and whether I fish a lot or a little in Wisconsin should not add or subtract from the points that were made. Like I said; most here are pretty well entrenched anyway, so we'll see what happens on April 8.
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Location: Minocqua, WI | I do guide up here and the OUR i was referring to is not guides... not by a long shot. It is ALL of the fishermen that use these lakes. By the way, if this passes and you think trolling wont be implemented by many guides both local and non-local, you are sadly mistaken. I've said all i have to say on this. Let the chips fall where they may but the bottom line is, such a broad legalization of trolling will have a negative impact in the long term. It has in the past and it will in the future. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Jerry Newman - 3/12/2013 10:00 AM
I can no longer cast all day and through default reluctantly consider myself a troller… although casting is my first love.
I thought that it was a fair comparison for the months of September-October-November.
- you can get a permit
- i thought the 3-line sucker fishing was pretty typical for you in the summer??
if the vote passes i'll have to buy a new kicker, so i'm hoping it doesn't pass cuz i could use the money for other things.
is travis joining us for pizza jerry? |
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| Travis, Sled, WI Duck Guide, etc.,
With all due respect, the problem with the argument that 3-line trolling will harm the fishery is that it's simply not supported by any data whatsoever. You present it as "fact", but your argument is entirely based on assumption and speculation.
By my count, 3-line motor trolling is allowed and has been occurring for years on at least 192 muskie lakes in our state, from waters in Southern Wisconsin, on all the way up to Bayfield County. Of those 192 lakes, 147 are less than 1,000 acres in size. Of those 147 that are less than 1,000 acres in size, 122 are less than 500 acres in size. Big lakes, small lakes, shallow weedy lakes, big deep/clear lakes, small deep/clear lakes, lakes with pelagic baitfish, etc. Walleye are also present in the vast majority of these same lakes. I am 100% certain that muskies will suspend over open water in all of these lakes, and are susceptible to trolling techniques.
The WDNR manages these lakes and has not found any evidence of any harm to the fisheries of these trolling lakes, as compared to non-trolling lakes, and further, there is no evidence of user conflict on trolling lakes vs. non-trolling lakes, regardless of size.
In an earlier thread, I posted a link to a 1996 WDNR study that evaluated fish populations in ceded territories. I'm not going to re-read it, but if memory serves, the data used in the study was not limited solely to creel surveys, but the cited creel survey data included the previous 5 years--during the time and on lakes where backtrolling was allowed...and the study showed that neither catch rate nor harvest rate for muskies/walleyes was significantly increased during the time period that backtrolling was allowed, as compared to when trolling was again restricted. Other data cited by the WDNR muskie team suggests that Vilas County lakes were healthier than ever during the years after backtrolling was disallowed, (suggesting no harm to the fisheries from backtrolling).
So, there is data available to evaluate whether 3-line motor trolling might negatively affect Vilas County fisheries. The great majority of data used by the WDNR to reach its conclusions is scientifically-accepted within the field of fisheries biology, and that data suggests that concerns over harm to the fisheries, while perhaps well-intentioned, are misplaced.
As Jerry says, everyone here seems pretty entrenched. I'm not interested in going around and around on this topic. I will say that I certainly respect the differing viewpoints here and as Steve says, regardless of what happens, either way the "sky isn't going to fall".
Cheers. |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Matt et al., this simply boils down to this. Those for trolling want it because they want to run suckers and cast and not worry about a ticket. They also want to capitalize on the fisheries. Those against either don’t want it in fear of fisheries being damaged, or are afraid of the increased pressure. While I see a big difference in the two ways of thinking others do not. Thus the opinions on here. I respect the Yes side as the yes side needs to respect the No side. You and others are correct that it doesn’t matter what those against say as the “Yes” crowd will never see the other side, and anything the “yes” crowd says will not convince the “no” crowd. Am I wrong to disagree with it because I am all for protecting a resource? Not at all. Are you and others wrong because you want more opportunities? Not at all. This is just like a size limit debate where some always want higher length limits, and then the opposite crowd doesn’t feel higher length limits are best for some fisheries. |
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Location: Barrington, Il | Steve,
Why does your son want to vote No? Is it jsut user conflicts? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | He worked for the DNR for 12 years. He spawned and stocked muskies and walleyes for the DNR out of Woodruff for 4 years. He feels additional fish handling and post release mortality of muskies and additional harvest pressure on larger walleyes on some already stressed walleye fisheries isn't going to be a positive, especially in light of the limited budgets and reduced stocking from what people here were accustomed to in years past. Numbers of fish per acre are down, stocking is down, and...harvest isn't.
He really likes trolling, but feels that CPR is not yet where it needs to be yet to protect some of the more fragile fisheries, especially if they are not top priority listed for stocking in the near future.
He creeled during the winter for Treaty ( a very important program funded and run in cooperation with the WIDNR and GLIFWC) on many lakes, and tells me VERY few walleyes are released if they are legal size. His experience with backtrolling up here makes him believe more pressure will result and more of the larger fish will be caught and kept, bad for lakes that will not be stocked because there simply are not enough resources to get them all maintained as well as anglers would like. It's an added technology to what's already stressing some of the fisheries, so it worries him.
That said, he also wanted me to say he feels the sky won't fall if trolling passes.
He did say that the DNR budget needs to get a boost; soon.
By the way, Keith now works for OFM full time. |
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Location: oswego, il | there is a tv show that I like alot and have been watching for years and will continue to watch. the show has a fishing contest and they show the winners for each week. most weeks the obviosly kept fish seem to be more numerous than the ones that appearing like they will be released. based on the contest and its tag by the host for catch and release I would say this is probably a pretty good barometer for where catch and release fishing is for the state of wisconsin. |
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| I think it would be nice if a distinction could be made between "trolling" crank baits and such vs sucker fishing and drifting along at the typical .2 to.6 mph to cover a weed edge or break. I have encountered what I believe to be "anti-sucker" fisherman telling me that I was trolling when in fact the 100 yards of water and weeds I was covering took 20 to 30 minutes just because they don't like sucker fishing. Does position fishing account for a situation where you are barely moving but then you have to turn the boat quickly before your sucker buries itself in some tall weeds. Also there are times when the suckers themselves will swim over .6 mph and i want to use the trolling motor to keep them away from the boat. Is it trolling when the bait is swimming faster than the boat? |
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Posts: 285
Location: NE Wisconsin | Maybe, now that the fishermen of Vilas and Oneida have spoken, the wardens will start to enforce the no-trolling law. Trolling is trolling no matter if you are trolling live or artificial baits. I hope there is strict enforcement this fall. I for one, will have my cell phone. |
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| We just spent 4 pages discussing a rule that supposedly doesn't have any gray area....with anecdotal evidence and supporting stories on both sides of the "I have/have not been or seen someone ticketed."
Sure glad we got all that cleared up.
-Eric |
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| I'd be willing to bet those who were ticketed knew exactly what they were doing. |
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Posts: 139
| KrazyK - 3/7/2013 8:44 PM
I fished with Greg Bohn (guide) who many years ago was guiding two undercover DNR officers and was row trolling when he hooked a fish. As one of the men/officers brought the fish in he repositioned the boat with his trolling motor to avoid runing aground. He still had one line out and never thought twice about it. At the end of the day he was paid and tipped well. Several days later he was ticketed for motor trolling and after several thousands of dollars in legal fees beat the case. It was sad to see such a great and honest fisherman dragged though the B.S. and because of it he quit guiding in Wisconsin. I quess it doesn't matter what you think because if they're gunning for you you don't stand a chance.
i hear stuff like this all the time. and then we have some that WANT more wardens. No thanks we can police ourselves thank you.
I was told by a warden that if you trolling motor is in the water and you have a sucker out, they can ticket you. So much for consistency. |
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| Those who were ticketed? Who was that again. Not one muskiefirst.com member who is willing to admit it. Interesting. |
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Location: 31 | Guest - 5/1/2013 7:34 AM Those who were ticketed? Who was that again. Not one muskiefirst.com member who is willing to admit it. Interesting. This thread does a good job of demonstrating the confusion with that antiquated position fishing/no trolling law, I don't think it matters who has been ticketed.
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Location: 31 | jonnysled - 3/12/2013 10:28 AM Jerry Newman - 3/12/2013 10:00 AM I can no longer cast all day and through default reluctantly consider myself a troller… although casting is my first love. I thought that it was a fair comparison for the months of September-October-November. - you can get a permit - i thought the 3-line sucker fishing was pretty typical for you in the summer?? if the vote passes i'll have to buy a new kicker, so i'm hoping it doesn't pass cuz i could use the money for other things. is travis joining us for pizza jerry? I don’t want a permit! I'm not going to risk getting hassled by game warden, or for that matter other anglers on the water (and you know that would happen).
I never said fishing with suckers in the summer was typical either, I even said I no longer use live bait. However, back when I used live bait I distinctly remember June was normally a good month. Further, I was watching some of my old DVR recordings over the weekend and on The Next Bite show, Pete Maina was using suckers last August. I see very (if any) little difference between somebody trolling with 3 rods, and somebody casting with two suckers out. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i believe that is my all-time favorite post ... thanks jerry. |
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Posts: 5874
| hunter991 - 5/1/2013 7:18 AM . I was told by a warden that if you trolling motor is in the water and you have a sucker out, they can ticket you. So much for consistency. It all depends on which Conservation Warden you contact, as to whether you are position fishing, or trolling. I prayed I would get a ticket, just so I could go to court and defend my position fishing. Never happened. the 3 or 4 times I was questioned, I never got a ticket, or even a warning. |
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have you been ticketed for position fishing a sucker?