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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | The NYSDEC wants to move to a Uniform Season for Muskies on Great Lakes Waters.Presently the Upper Niagara River & Lake Erie close on Nov 30th and the Lower Niagara River,Lake Ontario & St.Lawrence River close on Dec 15th.NYSDEC Region 6 Steve Lapan is thinking of changing the season to close Nov 30th for all NY Great Lakes Waters.This will mean no more chance at the Big Giant Muskies that are caught in the 15 days of December and extra pressure on Ontario portions of Great Lakes Waters that are open till December 15th.Please email NYSDEC Region 6 Steve Lapan and voice your opinion on how cold water periods there is little to no stress on muskies being handled with care and that if NY Waters are closed on November 30th that you will have to take your Tourist Dollars to other waters that are open till December 15th.Also closing NY Great Lakes Waters on Nov 30th will have more fishermen headed to the Detroit River,St. Claire & Green Bay adding more pressure on those fisheries until Dec 15th!
Send emails to [email protected]
Capt. Larry D. Jones
NY M.I. Chapter 69 Reg. Rep
Edited by LarryJones 2/23/2013 11:49 AM
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Minnesota waters close on Dec. 1
Not a big deal plus it protects the Muskies an extra 15 days against the Meat Harvesters in their pontoons.
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Minnisota is much colder in November then we are in NY state,the waters here have been getting warmer every year to the point where most of the migratory big giant muskies from the Great Lakes do not move into the rivers until December.The only fishermen out the 15 days of December are diehardt muskie fishermen that know how to safely handle the big girl's with good less stressed release in cooler water temps. |
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| Top H2O - 2/23/2013 12:19 PM
Minnesota waters close on Dec. 1
Not a big deal plus it protects the Muskies an extra 15 days against the Meat Harvesters in their pontoons.
Jerome
Applying "Protect the muskies from the meat hunter" logic to this scenario would be a shame to say the least. These are fall trophy waters that more often than not have very difficult conditions late season. Big waters and high winds can leave few fishible days some years and the fish in question are just beginning to move in to targetable waters as temps begin to drop into there preferred range mid Nov. These are fish that spend their lives roaming the open water of the great lakes and may never see a musky bait during our summer seasons. They are untouched, unpressured giants and it would be a waste of an amazing fishery to close the season before they even show up. |
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Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | Many years you could fish open water into December in the metro. TopH20 if you're scared of meat harvesters why even have an open season? Muskie season been shrinking my whole life. Now you have more people "pike" fishing in may and now in December when they can. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | jchiggins - 2/23/2013 12:49 PM
Many years you could fish open water into December in the metro. TopH20 if you're scared of meat harvesters why even have an open season? Muskie season been shrinking my whole life. Now you have more people "pike" fishing in may and now in December when they can.
Why do you guys think that the NY. DNR are considering closing muskie season 15 days early ?
I'll tell you why. it's because they want to protect those giant muskies from:
1) meat eaters
2) delayed mortality
3) and to keep these giants in the system for their eggs
What other reasons would the NYDNR have to shorten the season other than to Protect the Muskies
Don't tell me there aren't any people fishing out there looking to KEEP one or two of those fall fatties.
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| I couldn't agree more with the above comment about wasting the fishery. Actually I would favor moving the entire season in our glorious state to December 15th and unifying it that way. All the inland lakes that have muskies are stocked and do not have natural reproduction occurring.... On Lake Erie and the upper niagara river we stop fishing the American side after November but continue to fish a few feet away on the Canadian side through the 15th anyways...... And this was a crazy year for fishable weather, but most years it's all but impossible to fish in December. So what's the difference? They should be spending their time improving our outdoor opportunity not reducing it.
Edited by bryantukkah 2/23/2013 1:40 PM
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| Top H2O - 2/23/2013 2:32 PM
jchiggins - 2/23/2013 12:49 PM
Many years you could fish open water into December in the metro. TopH20 if you're scared of meat harvesters why even have an open season? Muskie season been shrinking my whole life. Now you have more people "pike" fishing in may and now in December when they can.
Why do you guys think that the NY. DNR are considering closing muskie season 15 days early ?
I'll tell you why. it's because they want to protect those giant muskies from:
1 ) meat eaters
2 ) delayed mortality
3 ) and to keep these giants in the system for their eggs
What other reasons would the NYDNR have to shorten the season other than to Protect the Muskies
Don't tell me there aren't any people fishing out there looking to KEEP one or two of those fall fatties.
Jerome
Yeah, those guys are down fishing off concrete piers in the city.... They could care less if there's a season or not!!! They don't know what the size limit is or when the season opens or if there even is a size limit or a season for that matter!!! They will keep anything. Who are we kidding here? |
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Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | Fifteen days now fifteen days later. Why not make it October first. Careful for what you wish for. The tree hugger attitude will have them protected with a closed season for our grandchildren. H20 I understand what you're saying about harvest. But is a fifty inch female in July less important to the fishery then a fifty full of eggs in December. I think not. Let's get back to pushing a size limit issue. Let's not cut off our noses to spite our face. |
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| jchiggins - 2/23/2013 2:46 PM
Fifteen days now fifteen days later. Why not make it October first. Careful for what you wish for. The tree hugger attitude will have them protected with a closed season for our grandchildren. H20 I understand what you're saying about harvest. But is a fifty inch female in July less important to the fishery then a fifty full of eggs in December. I think not. Let's get back to pushing a size limit issue. Let's not cut off our noses to spite our face.
When exactly these fish are caught is not the issue here... It's that those fish aren't around or catchable to the masses all year. Only when the water temp drops and the bait moves into the rivers are those big "egg laden" fish even there for the taking. Hardly anyone is out muskie fishing the open waters of Lake Erie and Ontario in July. Guys are in fact fishing the rivers in July as they are in December. What h2o is saying is that by closing the season in November, the possibility of seeing one of those huge ones we're talking about here is far less... In essence wasting the fishery. The size limits here aren't an issue either.... 48 inches in the rivers and ontario and 54 inches in the buffalo harbor Lake Erie. And like I just said anyone who is keeping fish probably doesn't care what the regs are anyways... Kind of like gun control all you're doing is taking away from people like you and me that obey the law because criminals here or there aren't going to stop breaking laws because you tightened one here or there. |
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| Let's also not forget the imbalance caused by the NY side closing early. Currently waters on the Ontario side close Dec 15th. Cutting a waterway in half down the center just pushes fisherman to fish the open side and Ontario has no intentions of closing their season early. This is the case currently on the Niagara, after Nov 30th the east side of the river closes while the west side remains open to fish until December 15th. Sounds pretty silly to me. |
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| this is a toss up for me Larry, i don't mind much either way. Theres the UNR and the harbor which I don't think would matter if the season stayed open until the 15th and then there is the st. lawrence...I certainly don't think a Nov. 30 ender would hurt that fishery.
The St. Lawrence populations aren't exactly in great shape in that area regardless of the pics everyone sees of big girls being caught out of there. Its possible those fish are a sub-sample of the very small population of spawning females that come in from the lake to spawn and are crucial to that fishery. Larry I will agree the die hards in those weeks are probably excellent handlers but you and I have both seen the videos of very poorly handled big fish from a well-known clayton charter boat that shall remain unnamed...
Ideally it'd be nice to have one without the other but thats not how it goes, the less ink the DEC has to pay for to define the NYS muskie season is the way they'll go!
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Location: Eastern Ontario | 80% of the Americans are on the Canadian side of the Larry in Dec anyway. It is not crowded you can't fish out there in Dec in a 16 foot open boat ( at least if your reasonably sane ). I under stand there is going to be a big push checking American boats for licences and paperwork and checking the many American guides for work permits.
Edited by horsehunter 2/23/2013 2:21 PM
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Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | bryantukkah - 2/23/2013 2:04 PM
jchiggins - 2/23/2013 2:46 PM
Fifteen days now fifteen days later. Why not make it October first. Careful for what you wish for. The tree hugger attitude will have them protected with a closed season for our grandchildren. H20 I understand what you're saying about harvest. But is a fifty inch female in July less important to the fishery then a fifty full of eggs in December. I think not. Let's get back to pushing a size limit issue. Let's not cut off our noses to spite our face.
When exactly these fish are caught is not the issue here... It's that those fish aren't around or catchable to the masses all year. Only when the water temp drops and the bait moves into the rivers are those big "egg laden" fish even there for the taking. Hardly anyone is out muskie fishing the open waters of Lake Erie and Ontario in July. Guys are in fact fishing the rivers in July as they are in December. What h2o is saying is that by closing the season in November, the possibility of seeing one of those huge ones we're talking about here is far less... In essence wasting the fishery. The size limits here aren't an issue either.... 48 inches in the rivers and ontario and 54 inches in the buffalo harbor Lake Erie. And like I just said anyone who is keeping fish probably doesn't care what the regs are anyways... Kind of like gun control all you're doing is taking away from people like you and me that obey the law because criminals here or there aren't going to stop breaking laws because you tightened one here or there. |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Lake Erie use to get down to 45 degrees water temp by the first couple weeks of November and the Buffalo Harbor would be a couple degees warmer.With the Lake having colder water temp then the Harbor the gizzard shad schools would move to that warmer water and the big muskies would follow the forage base in.Now the last 8 years Lake Erie has had no Ice at all or only partially frozen because the mean summer water temp is near 80 degrees.This has pushed the water cooldown to 45 degrees into December when the NY state waters are closed in Lake Erie & Upper Niagara River.Some of those big lake muskies do go down into the Upper Niagara River,but more go to the warm water discharge of the Huntly Power Station or Tonawanda Coke that are in NY waters that are closed.So everyone is fishing one peice of water between Strawberry Island and Canadian shore,stressing the same group of muskies.If the NY side were open the muskie fishing pressure would be spread out accross all the waters instead of one place.The 1st week of December up on the St.Lawrence River the surface water temp was 44 degees,the year before it was 34 degrees by the 1st week.So most of the giants moved in from Lake Ontario up there in December as well.The NYSDEC wants a Uniform Season,either Nov 30th or Dec 15th,to me it makes more sense to have Dec 15th the same as the Canadian waters spreading the fishing pressure accross all the waters.So it will come down to who the NSDEC Region 6 Office hears from,not much responce they will most likely go to Nov 30th accross the whole Great Lakes Waters of NY. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Larry, I understand what your saying and agree with you, but my question to you is:
Why does the NYDNR want to close the muskie season 15 days earlier ? Is it to protect the fish,?......Or is it a Political stance ?
Jerome |
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Location: Detroit River | Bad idea IMO. I definitely don't want more guys heading the Detroit River or LSC in December. There's already too many guys there now. |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Top H20, The NSDEC would find it easier to change the St.Lawrence River & Lake Ontario to Nov 30th because there are no musky clubs on the St.Lawrence River to put up any oposition.Here we have the NY M.I. Chapter 69 that is for Dec 15th and the NMA that has taken no offical position,even though the board is leaning toward Nov 30th,but maybe not the majority of the membership,we will find out at the March 5th NMA Meeting when the NYSDEC will be present talking about the issue.They are saying the 15 days of December will over stress the fish,but who is kidding who the 15 days of everyone fishing in one spot in Canadian waters is over stressing those fish,the fishing could be spread out through out the river stressing all the fish less. |
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| in reality ya cant have it both ways. buffalo harbour area has more trophy hunters then fish..there must be biological data and reasons. |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | George,In the month of November in the Buffalo Harbor most days I'm the only boat on the water,on weekends might see a couple more boats.On Nov 12th it snowed 8" and then the wind blew 58 mph pushing the cold surface water to our end of the lake,this cooled the water down to 45 degrees outside the walls,with 48 degrees behind the walls.This brought in the gizzard shad schools and following big muskies.There were 15 muskies caught by 3 boats in 4 days,then the winds blew out of the NW and pushed the cooler water away and it became a dead sea again.There are no muskies in the Harbor in November anymore unless there is a wind induced water temprature change.The water temps don't get below 45 degrees until after November 30th,not many fishermen fish here anymore because they know this.So lets shutdown the St.Lawrence River on Nov 30th so we can save the muskies of the Buffalo Harbor that do not show by Nov 30th almost all of the time,so we can protect what is not here yet and over stress the Canadian portion of the Upper Niagara River with all the pressure in one little area instead of spreading the fishing pressure accross all the waters of both sides of the river.
Edited by LarryJones 2/24/2013 6:38 PM
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Maybe Ontario could close the non resident season Nov.30 ( not my idea but I like it ) |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | The best you can hope for is NY to open all Great Lakes. Waters till Dec 15th to take a little pressure off Canadian Waters! |
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| living in an area that see,s pressure and plundering,is there data. larry i see your calling,but to evaluate whats the other,s data.. |
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| woodieb8 - 2/25/2013 7:10 AM
living in an area that see,s pressure and plundering,is there data. larry i see your calling,but to evaluate whats the other,s data..
There is data, most of which shows next to no natural reproduction in the harbor and that its an area of concern with pollution...the place is a sh*t yard. From listening to the guys who have been doing research out there for a while now its likely that the glory years of the harbor were just a period of high productivity that pumped out the big fish it did and over the years the ecosystem has been changing as it always does and with the spread of invasive zebras and gobies it's not nearly as productive anymore...there are still big fish in eastern lake erie just probably not in the harbor, no reason to go in there. |
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| living on st clair i have seen tremendous changes in my life.in the 1950,s-1980,s there was no invasives. then pollution,zebra/quagga mussels,the dramatic changes came. thats what my thoughts led to asking why a season change.larry i guess wants answers as he is a stakeholder in that region. i commend that.as i asked before data/studies are welcome before i could even evalue an opinion.i do know eco-systems weather patterns/invasive species all play major parts.
good thread for thought. |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | That is why I have asked in the past for there to be shocking study for young of the year muskies in other parts of the Harbor like beetween SBH & Cargill Pier.There is also the possability that the muskies in Lake Erie are spawning near Port Colburne and Dunkirk where there is warm water discharge to bring in gizzard shad schools.They are spawning somewhere or there would not be 53 1/2" to 35" muskies present under the right water temps.All the older fish from the late 90's have been gone for sometime,new recuitment came from somewhere.If two boats can catch 15 muskies with many over 50" in 4 days and mark hundereds of fish mixed in with gizzard shad schools durring that time frame,there has to be a sizable amount olf fish still present.Yes,maybe they do not show in the Harbor anymore,but they do not show out in the lake infront of the walls unless the water temp gets below 46 degrees either.If you look back at the NMA Release Data you will see when ever the water temp was 46 degrees or under big muskies 50" or bigger were caught,the years that the surface water temp was 49 degrees or higher the last day olf November,No 50" Muskies Were Caught!The warming of Lake Erie has pushed the fishery into December and even then it might still be to warm of water to catch anything by Dec 15th.Lets quit kidding ourselfs,you can't catch what is not here because the forage base is not here for them to feed on until the water surface temps drop below 46 degrees.I have been recording muskies caught by water temp from the Buffalo Harbor since 1990,I'm on the water in November up there more then anyone else,most of the month of November my boat is the only one out.To keep the season closed to protect muskies that don't even show up in November most of the time ,so we can only fish canadian waters the 15 days of December and over stress those fish in UN2, when the pressure could be even accross both canadian & NY waters,is just not right!Those 15 days of December the wind can blow,the water can be brown or snow could fall and releasing muskies in higher oxygen colder waters is less stress,but you still have to be on the water to catch them,not many boats out,not much pressure,no impact on hurting the fishery! |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | I have to agree with Captain Larry. Here in Michigan the east shore of Lake Michigan there is no closed season and there is no threat of pressure either. The few who would fish are brave indeed and with colder waters there is much less stress then during hot water months. Come on people we all know this stuff. I think the the entire st Lawrence should be open till the end of December or have no closed season like we do here. Asking for the 15th is not asking for much. You get my vote. Mike |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | I also want everyone to know,I do not guide in December and do not plan to in the future. I however have been fishing muskies since 1975 and have had a couple muskies of the 50 lb class to the boat for a short visit and many muskies from 50" to 54".I live to fish just like most muskie fishermen,I would like the chance to catch that 60 lber,that posability is only going to happen late in the season in the cold water period.So are we so protective now that we are going to keep ourselves from ever having a chance to catch a giant muskie by fishing for them only when they are not here,because the time frame for those fish showing has moved later?The season should start on the 3rd Saturday in July and end on December 30th,a whole month to the right,the July start alone would do more for the fishery then any other move,except maybe if fishermen would avoid the high water temps of August in the Upper Niagara River in the highest stress time.
Edited by LarryJones 2/25/2013 9:32 AM
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Steve Lapan from the NSDEC Office at Cape Vincent,NY just emailed me the locations for this years "State of Lake Ontario Meetings",one topic will be NY Great Lakes Muskie Season Changes.Go to a meeting ,listen and voice your opinion!
• Wednesday, March 6, 2013: 7:00 p.m. – 9:30 p.m. at the DEC Training Academy, 24 County Route 2A, Pulaski (the former “Portly Angler Motel”), Oswego County. The meeting is co-hosted by the Eastern Lake Ontario Salmon and Trout Association.
• Tuesday, March 12, 2013: 7:00 p.m. – 9:30 p.m. at the Carlson Auditorium, in the Chester F. Carlson Center for Imaging Science building (76-1125) on the Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) campus, Rochester, Monroe County. The meeting is co-hosted by RIT and the Monroe County Fishery Advisory Board.
• Tuesday, March 19, 2013: 6:30 - 9:00 p.m. at the Cornell Cooperative Extension
Building, 4487 Lake Avenue, Lockport, Niagara County. The meeting is co-
hosted by Niagara County Cooperative Extension and the Niagara County Sportfishery Development Board
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| Larry is totally right in my opinion. The time of year we are talking about has almost no meat hunters out fishing when it's that cold plus it has probably the lowest mortality rate possible due to the colder water. Imagine how you would feel if the DNR came in and stopped fishing during your favorite waters best trophy fishing period? |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Still no one has answered the 10 million dollar question,......WHY??? does the NYSDEC want to move the season back 15 days , from Dec 15, to Nov.30 .??
Larry you have stated that you are the only one fishing the last 15 days of the season, but you also say if the season ends on Nov. 30,, that everyone will crowd out and put more fishing pressure on the Canadian side/LSC/Detroit river,....?,... How can this be if your the ONLY one fishing the New York side? I'm Confused.
There must be a legitimate reason or two, that the NYSDEC wants to change things,....... don't you think? |
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| Larry stated he is the only one fishing the harbor most days, sadly this is true. Hes not the only one fishing the US waters of the Niagara or st. Lawrence river though so obviously any fisherman fishing there in December are going to fish elsewhere. The nysdec is looking to make a change to make the great lakes season consistant across the state. Right now the season closes Nov 30th on the U.S. side of the upper Niagara and lake Erie and Dec 15th everywhere else, including all of the St. Lawrence, lake Ontario, the lower Niagara and Canadian waters of the upper river and Erie. If the nysdec were to choose Dec 15 the seasons would share the same closing date with the boardering Canadian waters and correct the imbalance that exists on the upper Niagara and eastern lake Erie. A Nov 30th close would create a further imbalance and force fisherman into Canadian waters across the state for the final 15 days. The reasons to choose one date or the other are pretty obvious. Further protect egg laiden big females for 15 additional days? Or take into account that today's angler is much better educated on proper release, water temps are at the best all season for successful release and allow anglers to pursue the fish of a lifetime. In any event Canadian waters will remain open until December 15th. It won't decide so much if fish will still be caught in December as it will decide on which side of the boarder they are caught on and how many boats will be forced to fish the same areas. |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | If the NY Great Lakes part of the St.Lawrence River is closed on Nov 30th,there will be more pressure on the Canadian Waters & 40 Acre Shoals.Some that do not have big enough boats to handle the harsh conditions that come up by 40 Acre Shoals in December,that use to fish in areas protected from winds in NY Waters will travel other places.One place would be the already over stressed Canadian Waters between Strawberry Island and Frenchmens Creek of the Upper Niagara River where West & SW high winds still allow mostly calm water fishing.Others would head to the Detroit River as well and on good weather days Lake St.Claire.
The Best that could happen for NY Muskie Season is: NY Inland Muskie Waters 3rd Saturday in May to Dec 15th(raising sizelimit from 30" to 42")---NY Great Lakes Muskie Season 3rd Saturday in June to Dec 15th(with 54" Sizelimit)
Then the 15 Days of December Muskie Fishing would be spread out through out All NY State Muskie Waters and Canadian Waters!What is less stressfull for the muskies,pound one area to death or spread it accross all the waters.
Edited by LarryJones 2/26/2013 9:58 AM
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | {Still no one has answered the 10 million dollar question,......WHY??? does the NYSDEC want to move the season back 15 days , from Dec 15, to Nov.30 .?? }
Some of the membership of the Niagara Musky Assoc. that were instrumental in getting the Nov 30th closing date for the Upper Niagara River & Lake Erie some years back are giving the NSDEC a hard time about changing to Dec 15th.So the NYSDEC finds it easier to change the season to Nov 30th accross the NY State Great Lakes Waters then to deal with trying to get those in the NMA to change.The NMA Menbership is split on Nov 30th or Dec 15th,with most of the board pushing Nov 30th.The whole fishery has changed very much since the days when the Nov 30th closing date was set,waters cool later and bigger fish move in later,so we are protecting fish that are most of the time not even here in November,they are somewhere way out in the depths of Lake Erie near the forage base,gizzard shad schools.There are some in the NMA that will tell you the whole fishery has crashed with no recuitment,well the fish may not be spawing in the Buffalo Harbor no more because of Ecosystem changes including lower water,warmer water and aquatic invaders.But they are spawning somewhere or the 50" + muskies to 35 " muskies we do catch under the right wind induced water temp periods would not be there to catch,I marked 100's of big muskies in one period of cold wind induced water temp the middle of November this year,15 big muskies were caught in 4 days until water temp went from 45 degrees back up to 49 degrees,then it was a dead sea.With only the Canadian Waters being open those fish get hit over and over agian for lots of added stress,that fishing should be spread out accross the Whole Niagara Fishery or All of NY State with a Dec 15th Closing Date for All NY State Muskie Waters--Inland & Great Lakes!
Edited by LarryJones 2/26/2013 10:47 AM
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| The reason that very few guys still fish the harbour, is because the fishery has been almost completely destroyed. Larry, I have seen posts from you before claiming that you think the harbour should be made closed season for a few years, to hopefully allow the fishery to rebound. Yet, you are out there every day late season, fishing it, and posting daily on your results. The results are not good, but the odd time you do catch a decent one, and make sure everyone heats about it. Do you really think thats good for a fishery in a fragile state. And when exactly were there 15 Musky caught in a few days between 2 boats? ( or was it 3, because you have conflicting numbers in this thread) . Funny, I never heard mention of all these fish, even though you post your catches ( and everyone elses if you are lucky enough to hear about them )
Fact is, the fish arent showing up in the harbour in any numbers, regardless of water temps. An extended season will not change this. Sorry, but the heyday is long over. The NMA and yourself post way to specific info that can be harmful to the fishery. The river isnt much better, and is slowly recovering as well. Encouraging pressure in specific areas isnt going to help. I figured you of all people might understand that, because you watched the harbour get destroyed.
I actually hope the season gets extended, because the pressure on one small Canadian section of river is ridiculous. Would be nice for people to figure out some things for themselves, instead if going on a forum to find out what you ate for breakfast. |
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| Guest you sound obnoxious. Do you really think the harbor fishery is really so "fragile" and "destroyed?" It's a Great Lake, muskie have more water than just the buffalo harbor and a few spots on the upper to swim in but because people keep pounding the south gap year after year after year with little to no results all of the sudden the conclusion is that the fishery is dead or fragile...maybe the fish are in the 99.99999999% of the other water people neglect because they once caught big fish in 1995 there.
Larry's posts aren't doing anything to hurt the fishery, if he is drawing more attention to the harbor then so be it, do you think the DEC is going to care and waste funding on a resource that no one uses or talks about?
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | You right in one thing the big muskies do not come to the Harbor anymore , but they do show up out infront in the open lake under the right cool water conditions.The fishing pressure needs to be across the whole fishery in the 15 days of December , not just one section of water on the Canadian side.Most Great Lakes Fisheries are not what they were 15 years ago, they all have taken a hit to vhs and invasive species.If fishing for 15 more days in December is going to destroy the fishery then maybe they should close it down all together.I'm a muskie fishermen, I like other Muskie fishermen fish to catch & release that one big muskie of a lifetime, it will only come from the colder waters of late Nov to early Dec here.Also if you know so much about me you would know I have done a lot to improve muskie fishing in NY, 8 years of raising funds for Chautauqua Bait Fish Fund.I''ve always been for habitat improvements, stocking efforts for both the river and harbor, but where do the politians do the habitat building way up in the Union canal.Even if you stocked that area with muskie fingerlings there is no forage base for them to flourish, Muskies have not gone there to spawn on there own.Most places in the Buffalo Harbor where Muskies use to spawn the water level is down almost 3ft and silted in.They are still spawning somewhere else on Lake Erie or there would not be the class of fish that still show in the lake under the right water Conditions .As for the NMA I was one of 6 fishermen that sitdown in a bar together and started the club, I was the first Vice Pres., the NMA has done a lot for the Niagara Muskie Fishery.
Edited by LarryJones 2/27/2013 7:12 AM
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| Why are we even talking about the buffalo harbor?? This has to do with the rest of the great lakes in NY bringing the season back to the nov. 30th date that already exists in Lake Erie. Are we fighting against a shorter season there or fighting for a longer season here???? Do we really think the dec is going to not only scrap this idea but come up with another opposite one at the same time? Maybe I'm crazy but it seems to me like everything this state does it screws up to no end. On a side note... I will side with the guest here Larry. It really wasn't that long ago when you were lobbying for closing down fishing to the entire buffalo harbor for like five years because the fishery was declining..... And now you're the only one there all November. Was it two or three boats? Fifteen fish? Depends on the day of the week I guess..... But hey I've heard you will give a guy on shore a bottle of expensive scotch to release a huge fish.... That was you wasn't it? Depends on who's within ear shot at the time I guess.... And for someone who is so worried about "pressure" you sure do one heck of a job helping people flock to your fishing spot. Lots of odd length fish out there too... 43, 45, 47, 49.... All fatty's. Sooner or later no one cares to listen anymore. There once was a story of a boy and a wolf.
Edited by bryantukkah 2/27/2013 11:48 AM
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | It is all about evening out the fishing pressure on the whole fishery! If it is not a stress factor to have Lake Erie, Upper Niagara River in Canadian Waters Open along with All the Lower Niagara River to Dec 15th,then having all the waters open on both sides of the border open should be less stress on the whole fishery! I never gave someone on shore a bottle of scotch to release a big muskie,that was Josh Kentry.
As far as boats flocking to my spots,I'm usually the only boat out,sometimes I see another boat or two on a weekend out in Lake Erie.The one period after 58 mph winds pushed cold water up again'st the outer walls on Nov 13th ,the sun came out and it was calm and in the 50's outside 8 boats showed on that Saturday Nov 17th ,2 out of state and 6 from the NMA.No one caught any fish on that bluebird East wind flat water day Nov 17th,because the water temp had already rose back up to 49 degrees from 45 degrees ,the gizzard shad schools had gone back out deep in Lake Erie,so had the muskies that were there. The Buffalo Harbor comes up because that is the sole reason that some others give for keeping all NY Waters Closed on Nov 30th,they are not looking at the stress of the whole fishery by only the fish in one side of the river getting all the pressure.The NYSDEC wants a Uniform Season across all of NY Great Lakes Waters,so does All NY Great Lakes Waters Closing Nov 30th & All Canadian Waters Closing Dec 15th make sense or does All Great Lakes Waters NY & Canada Closing on Dec 15th make sense?The Canadians are not going back to Nov 30th.So lets shutdown Trophy Muskie Fishing through out the rest of NY Great Lakes Waters to protect muskies that never come inside the Harbor Walls anymore!
Edited by LarryJones 2/27/2013 12:27 PM
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| Larry:
I'm not too sure what the DEC wants. Maybe we'll find out next week. My guess is that they might be satisfied leaving things just the way they are. I also think that the only reason closing dates have become an issue is because they've been petitioned by Muskies Inc to extend the season in the upper river and Lake Erie to Dec. 15. I do know that the NMA board has not pressured the DEC one way or the other (so please don't say that we have). Also, we have no interest in shortening the season in the St. Lawrence or elsewhere.
It's my personal opinion that the upper river and Buffalo Harbor are small urban fisheries with easy access to a metro area of more than 1 million (probably a few hundred musky anglers in that million). Due to its small size and easy access it's much more vulnerable to fishing pressure than vast fisheries such as the St. Lawrence, Georgian Bay, or even St. Clair (which is also much more prolific). Accordingly, it should be managed more conservatively than larger, more remote, and healthier fisheries. That means shorter seasons. It's just stuped to have the same regulation for fisheries as different in size, health, and quality as the St. Lawrence and the Niagara/Buffalo Harbor. The NYDEC knows that. Apparently the OMNR does not. I say lets not follow a stuped management philosophy.
Also, the NY water of the upper are only beginning to recover from a period of decline. Decent numbers, but mostly immature fish. The harbor is on life support (but if it's as good as some seem to suggest, then there is no need to extend the season). Neither the upper nor the harbor will benefit from increasing fishing pressure. They're both still in recovery mode. |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Tony,Putting all the muskie fishing pressure on one spot on the Candian side is not good for the whole fishery.The fishing pressure for the 15 days of December needs to be spread across the whole fishery,both NY & Canadian Waters.Lets be honest here,fishing the 15 days of cooler water of December are not going to destroy the fishery.If the fishery is that fragile then why are you not trying to take the 15 days off the fragile start of 3rd Saturday in June.The reason why we fish is to catch the biggest muskie of your life,that will only happen in late November if your lucky and December if you had the chance.Out of all of the late days of November and the 15 days of December you may be lucky to get on the water a few days due to high winds,brown water or snow that can happen then,just do not see where all this extra pressure would be you keep talking about.Muskies Inc. never asked the NSDEC for an extension of Inland or Great Lakes Seasons until we were asked by the NSDEC for our imput on season changes back in October.What did we do we called the NMA and told them the NSDEC was looking for Imput.Our membership of NY M.I. Chapter 69 voted for Dec 15th and I was a no vote because at the end of this what ever is decided Nov 30th or Dec 15th by the fishermen I must take to the Erie County FAB & Federation,the NMA has had since October and here we are with a meeting on March 5th where hopefully we will find out.I have not lied here,I said the majority of the NMA Board was for Nov 30th and that the Membership is split on the decision,no vote was taken other then a hand written pole at one meeting showing most wanted Dec 15th.Every conservation effort the NMA has ever done I have supported in the past,even as a past Vice Pres. and Founding Member,but I can't agree on this one! I will be gone to Albany tomarrow to march for our 2nd Amendment again'st the NY Safe Act(Prince Coumo Gun Band),so I'll look back here when I return. |
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| Larry:
I also don't believe that extending the season in NY waters will relieve the pressure on the Triangle. The triangle gets pounded all season, although there's lots of other water to fish. Too many guys only have confidence fishing that one small area. Also, there's about ten more miles of river in Ontario, but all the pressure in the extended season was in one little area. Anyone who knows the river as well as you do should know that opening NY waters wouldn't change that much. If Ontario understood this fishery, they would know why all the pressure is in one small area and would close their side of the river on November 30. But they don't even try to understand the river's musky fishery, and consider it only as an afterthought. They have other and greater musky fisheries to manage. This small ecologically challenged fishery is really only a concern to us local anglers. I think we should be mindful of its limitations and vulnerabilities.
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| Actually Tony, I feel that it is "us Canadians" that have the only firm grip on the Niagara fishery. We know enough to keep our mouths shut when we are catching fish throughout our waters. We know enough to keep our mouths shut when we are doing well on our shores of lake Erie. We know there are fish from Navy Island to the mouth of the river and we have no problem with the members of the nma only fishing Frenchmans creek. As a former member of your club I've seen how your catch data exploits certain areas. As long as your data comes from one place all of your members will fish one place, leaving plenty of water and unpressured fish to us uneducated Canadians so we can continue to destroy our fishery in December when the fish swim right away when released. Go ahead, protect your polluted waters from evil December fisherman, there's no reason I'd buy a NY lic to fish your factory discharge waters anyway. All the west river fish are dead, nothing to see here. |
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| niaontario - 2/27/2013 11:29 PM
Actually Tony, I feel that it is "us Canadians" that have the only firm grip on the Niagara fishery. We know enough to keep our mouths shut when we are catching fish throughout our waters. We know enough to keep our mouths shut when we are doing well on our shores of lake Erie. We know there are fish from Navy Island to the mouth of the river and we have no problem with the members of the nma only fishing Frenchmans creek. As a former member of your club I've seen how your catch data exploits certain areas. As long as your data comes from one place all of your members will fish one place, leaving plenty of water and unpressured fish to us uneducated Canadians so we can continue to destroy our fishery in December when the fish swim right away when released. Go ahead, protect your polluted waters from evil December fisherman, there's no reason I'd buy a NY lic to fish your factory discharge waters anyway. All the west river fish are dead, nothing to see here.
Don't care. |
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| Niaontario:
Yeah, I probably deserved that.
But my criticism wasn't with Canadian anglers, but the OMNR, who I believe have always been behind the NYDEC in regards to the Niagara River. All you have to do is look at current and historical regulations - creel limits, size limits, seasons. NY has always been more conservative - which I think is best for the musky, and in the long-term better for the musky fisherman. And New York has done way more habitat improvement projects (many millions of dollars expended)- many of which benefit Canadian waters and Canadian fishermen. I don't believe that Ontario has done anything (habitat improvement) to help the fishery. But maybe they don't think it's necessary.
And I hope the west river is as productive as you say it is. My experience is that it is not anything close to what it was before the "big crash". But thank you for opening up. And please understand that we have never tried to stop your extended season and I hope you continue to have December success (I just prefer that it isn't brought to the NY section for a host of reasons).
In regards to "keeping our mouths" shut, the Niagara has been heavily fished for almost a hundred years. "Frenchman's", "the triangle", "the shipyards", "staleys", etc. have been well known spots for almost as long. There haven't been any secrets. We haven't told anybody anything that wasn't already well-known. These locations were well known in the 1970s. It's a heavily fished urban fishery - a place where it's hard to hide. In such an environment, silence does not help the fishery. We can only help the fishery by working together. We can only work together by speaking with each other and sharing information. That's how we made the Buffalo Harbor and upper river almost exclusively a "catch and release" fishery (Canadian waters still have size limits allowing a greater degree of harvest). Speaking and sharing information is also how we sold total catch and release. Otherwise the fishery would have been left on its own to deal with all the destructive changes in the ecosystem with no help from anglers or agencies. But it's always a cost/benefit analysis (sharing info), and we believe that the benefits outweigh the costs.
One last comment on December catch and release. Everyone seems to think that it's a panacea - no harm can be done to the muskellunge. But I've always believed (based upon things I've read and conversations with biologists) that injuries sustained by fish - cuts, bruises, abrasions, slime removal - do not heal nearly as quickly in cold water as in warm. Infections may spread faster and stay longer because the fish's metabolisms aren't as high as in the summer. Although the fish may swim away quickly and strongly, if it was otherwise injured, it may not survive. Am I wrong in this understanding? I'd like to know if anyone has any info on this subject.
I actually try to stay off of these web-sites for saying things I may regret, and I apologize if my comments have offended anyone.
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| Tony,
Nice post and well said.
I can't imagine that there are a critical issues pertaining to habitat that the OMNR needs to address though...if you look at the canadian side and then the american side its like they are two completely different rivers...you can see why NYS pumped millions into restoration |
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| Ronix - 2/28/2013 3:15 PM
Tony,
Nice post and well said.
I can't imagine that there are a critical issues pertaining to habitat that the OMNR needs to address though...if you look at the canadian side and then the american side its like they are two completely different rivers...you can see why NYS pumped millions into restoration
Whens the last time the US stocked the river? Im sure Canada did the last stocking in that river you fish. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Millions of American Dollars were spent over the last 25 yrs. to clean up a very Polluted system in order to have cleaner water and better fish habitat. |
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| The most damaging move to successful musky spawning on the Niagara was made by the NYDEC. Allowing thousands of anglers to fish your spawning grounds during your "trophy bass season" will prove to have more effect to your fishery than any December musky anglers. NYS should take a page from the OMNR and make these areas sanctuaries if your going to open other types of sport angling during the spawn on the spawning grounds. Spawning with a rattle trap or bass tube pinning your mouth closed must be stressful. Don't kid yourself, since NY started allowing bass fishing in May and early June I've heard hundreds from early season anglers getting bit off by muskies right in their known spawning areas.
As far as sharing information.... As long as your catch data shows all the fish are caught from one spot, all of your club members will fish one spot. The NMA should work on teaching its members to explore new water and learn a thing or two for themselves out there. What you have created is a bunch of dependent newcomers that will always rely on being spoonfed information and never be able to adapt on there own to changes in the fishery.
Best of luck protecting your fishery (that no one fishes because they are all in one spot on our side all season) from the dreaded December catch and release anglers. |
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| You may be right about that bass fishing. But I don't think that's a fight we can win. It's like trying to shut the season down in August. It's not going to happen. Too many social/economic issues. Also, most of the successful spawning in the Niagara, based upon YOY studies, is in the NY portion. Ontario has only a couple areas of good spawning habitat.
You're also right about trying to get guys to explore more and try other tactics. We do and have always done that. Some do and some don't.
I don't like using the "your side" "our side" terminology. The fish don't know and don't care and neither should we. But overall, I think the NY portion is a healthier population, especially when it comes to recruitment. There's a lot of fish and habitat the entire length. But most of the largest fish generally do come from that one small area on your side - although I think they are heavily dependent upon and recruited from the habitat on "our side" - the Strawberry Island/Motor Island archipelago. So I think we need to work together. Or not. For the past hundred years the muskies have found a way to survive. So I think they'll survive us.
Don't think that you're such a dreaded rebel because you fish in December. Most musky anglers probably agree with you, so you're actually quite mainstream and I'm probably just a dinasaur. Trying to keep a November 30 closure is bucking the current standard. But I think that there are circumstances unique to the NY side which make it appropriate. In the meantime, continue to enjoy the wonderful west river (it truly is a special place to fish for muskies).
Tony
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| HUH?? - 2/28/2013 9:13 PM
Ronix - 2/28/2013 3:15 PM
Tony,
Nice post and well said.
I can't imagine that there are a critical issues pertaining to habitat that the OMNR needs to address though...if you look at the canadian side and then the american side its like they are two completely different rivers...you can see why NYS pumped millions into restoration
Whens the last time the US stocked the river? Im sure Canada did the last stocking in that river you fish.
Huhh? is right.... This isn't a stocked fishery here pal. Great Lakes. Natural reproduction. Stocking is not necessary or relevant. Seasons actually matter. And btw I believe nysdec did at one point stock chautauqa fish here, omnr knows better. |
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| According to Kapuscinski, K.L., et al., Trends in muskellunge population and fishery characteristics in Buffalo Harbor (Lake Erie) and the Niagara River, J Great Lakes Res (2013), the NYSDEC stocked the Niagara River from 1941 to 1955 (with the exceptions of '45, '46, '51 and 54') with Chautauqua Fry. The OMNR stocked from 1960 to 1974 (except for '66) with Stoney Lake musky fingerlings. |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Also add in that the fishery must not be in total colspse if the NMA can have Tournaments in Lake Erie & Upper Niagara River in November and Lower Niagara River in December.But the 15 days of December is going to be too stressful on Muskies in cooler water condions.Everyone knows that the colder waters of late fall is the less stressful time of the whole year to release Muskies.That colder water holds more oxygen and fish recover faster.The issue is spread the fishing out through the whole fishery in the 15 days of December or continue stressing one area of Canadian water only.Like said before even if all waters were open till Dec 15th some years the weather brings high winds , brown water and snowed in launches, so some years you can't even get on the water most if not all of those days.
Extra pressure on the fishery by giving all fishermen a chance to fish across the whole fishery for 15 days in Dec , just don't believe it will hurt the fishery , but may relieve a little stress on one section of Canadian water.It is ok to fish the Lower Niagara River on both sides and many NMA members fish there in December, I do not see that fishery being any different then the rest of the Niagara Fishery, no complaints about fishing there from the same people saying the Upper can't handle 15 days of more even fishing pressure across the whole fishery.
Edited by LarryJones 3/1/2013 6:10 AM
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| Bryan and HUH I was referring to the shoreline development, habitat degradation, urbanization, and pollution of the US side compared to Canada. Not sure where you guys got stocking out of that but ok.
Edited by Ronix 3/1/2013 7:03 AM
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | I'm sure I will not make many friends saying this,but it needs to be said!One other Event that will add more stress to the Upper Niagar River Muskies then the 15 days of December ever would,is the NMA Northern Pike Tournament in MAY! Having a Northern Pike Tournament in May when Pure-Bread Muskies are either spawning,getting ready to spawn or post spawn,could put more pressure on the Muskie Fishery then any other time.Where is the Stress guy's,Opening Week Post Spawn,High water temps of August or May Northern Pike Tournament on Muskie Spawning grounds,I surely do not think it is the 15 Days of December!
Edited by LarryJones 3/1/2013 7:39 AM
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| What frustrates me is that the local forums here in Niagara create added pressure by posting catches, times, locations, 10 fish days etc. for all to hear. Not only that, the NMA posts requests to its members to come to the Canadian side and fish in our small areas (smaller than sections of the Niagara river). This section is a few acres at best, and now a throng of muskie anglers are made privy to it. We once were able to fish this area in peace, and now there are more and more boats every year. It is quite simple in many respects. Do not post about catching fish in places that are already struggling. Period. Many NMA posts are available for all to see (some not because of membership). |
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Musky Mo (Tony) wrote: "One last comment on December catch and release. Everyone seems to think that it's a panacea - no harm can be done to the muskellunge. But I've always believed (based upon things I've read and conversations with biologists) that injuries sustained by fish - cuts, bruises, abrasions, slime removal - do not heal nearly as quickly in cold water as in warm. Infections may spread faster and stay longer because the fish's metabolisms aren't as high as in the summer. Although the fish may swim away quickly and strongly, if it was otherwise injured, it may not survive. Am I wrong in this understanding? I'd like to know if anyone has any info on this subject."
LR: Tony, common sense should tell you that "infections" won't spread faster in the colder water...come on. If anything, should there be cuts (unlikely, but not impossible), it is far less likely infection would set in as it does in the warm water part of the season. I personally believe you are crying wolf just because you have an agenda and not based on facts. Protect those fish at the start of the season when they really need it and don't worry about a few extra days in the coldest part of the season which isn't doing any harm to the fishery...time to get the real priorities straight and stop beating a dead horse! |
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| 2112 - 3/1/2013 7:45 AM
We once were able to fish this area in peace, and now there are more and more boats every year.
This is happening everywhere muskies are located. It is not just the Niagara River.
Edited by Ja Rule 3/1/2013 9:38 AM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Interesting thread. I guess I can see the point(s) of both sides of the discussion, and I certainly have no dog in the hunt. However I would say that as someone with a fair amount of training in the sciences (including fisheries biology), I really can't see that an extra two weeks would impose much more stress or harm to the population there. I think Larry Ramsell is correct in noting that the spread of a potential infection would be slower in colder temperatures--and although I haven't formally researched it, my suspicion is that the bacterial load in colder water is significantly lower than in warmer water. Part of this is due to the relative biological activity in warmer water (faster) than colder water (slower). This is the basic "Q10" rule that states that the biological activity essentially doubles with a 10C-degree (18F) increase in temperature. Here is a link with a bit of summary on that:
http://www.lakeaccess.org/russ/temperature.htm
I think the other thing to consider here is the capability of the fish to withstand the stress of the angling/catch event. In terms of angling-associated mortality, I don't think there's ever been a real decisive explanation for why that occurs. Certainly there have been significant abnormalities noted in fish that die in response to an angling exposure--potassium increases dramatically, and glucose decreases. This is an expected response to stress however, as (from the research that I've read) all angled fish seem to experience it to some degree. However for whatever reason the fish that succumb to the catch, at least the ones in the studies I've read, seem to be unable to maintain homeostasis, and thus die. I have a few theories on that based on my training in human medicine, but those are beyond the scope of this thread.
I would like to add this much though: These extra two proposed weeks of fishing (in December) are almost certainly going to be at the lowest water temperatures of the Fall...if not the entire season. Thus at the very least the fish, being poikilothermic, are going to have the slowest metabolic rates of the season--at a time when the water temperature dictates that dissolved oxygen levels will be highest. Given the Q10 rule-of-thumb, it seems reasonable to assume that bacterial loads will be lowest at this time as well. And finally, since the fish have been feeding throughout the Summer and into the Fall, their overall health and thus their immunologic response to potential infectious agents, will be greatest. So in other words, they will very likely fight the least (and exert the least amount of energy) at a time when their aquatic environment is most favorable for their recovery.
Look, these fish are a resource. Many good points have been made in this thread--and there are viable concerns on both sides of the debate. Any fish exposure to angling/catch events will pose *some* threat to the fish. There's no way around it! However the relative paucity of anglers in these two weeks (compared to early season, when the conditions are more favorable and enjoyable to the masses) I think will indeed reduce the overall impact on the fishery.
Finally, I will be the first one to admit that I am not an expert in that fishery out there. However I really do not see how any significant harm will be done in those two weeks. I agree with the poster that brought up the early season bass fishing in the spawning grounds. Wasn't it only a year or two ago that a bass angler caught a 60" musky before the musky season opened, and then dove down about 20 feet to recover the fish when it essentially tried to die at the bottom? These fish are being caught on lighter tackle in the Spring--it happens here in Green Bay too! Our fish LOVE 5-6" stick baits at that time of the year, and some of the largest fish caught in the system are caught by walleye and bass guys, before the musky season opens. So if you REALLY want to get serious about protecting the muskies, then THAT is what you need to address first, in my humble opinion. Work to limit the angling exposure imposed on these fish by large numbers of anglers fishing with light tackle (long fight times), who are ill-equipped to deal with the release of such large fish. It is absolutely ludicrous to say that the potential risk imposed on the muskellunge population by these non-musky anglers is over-shadowed by a relatively few number of anglers who are equipped with heavy tackle, large nets, adequate release tools and (for the most part) significant experience handling large fish!
So my vote is this/these:
1) Delay the season opening, or (at least) declare muskellunge spawning grounds as sanctuaries and protect them accordingly.
2) Increase the minimum size limit to at least 54" for harvesting a musky, if that is what Canada does for its neighboring waters.
3) Standardize the season across that ecosystem. Again why not do what Canada does, as they seem to be pretty good at producing large fish!
4) Push the system-wide season closing back to December 15th, if that's what the majority of the anglers want. Again, these fish are resources. If you really don't want *any* exposure on the fishery, then close it to angling altogether. But until then, how much extra risk will there be to fish another two weeks?
5) Work with late-season anglers to obtain accurate and complete creel-census data on this fishery. In other words, make the anglers work WITH the biologists to better understand the population. These guys are a tremendous resource, for the most part--because they wouldn't be out there freezing their gonads off, if they didn't care about the fishery.
Sorry for the long diatribe, but I really can't understand why this is such a debated topic. This isn't rocket science, and it seems pretty straightforward to me.
Edited by tcbetka 3/1/2013 10:31 AM
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Tom,The NMA has Angler Diary Study Info and Member Catch & Release Data from 1994 till now. The trouble is that in the 90's there were up to as many as 40 boats on the water on November weekends in Lake Erie,now there are less then 3 average most weekends in November and it has been that way the last 10 years,so it is easy to show a very big decline in numbers of muskies caught with that kind of angling hours put in,small, used on a chart along with numbers of boats and anglers of years past.Does not show the true numbers of muskies present in the system today.
Edited by LarryJones 3/1/2013 1:22 PM
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| I lot of you guys are unfamiliar with the Buffalo harbor and upper Niagara River. Discussion of our season really doesn't belong on a national site and I'm not sure why Larry started this discussion in this forum.
The bottom line is this: From ten to fifteen years ago the Buffalo Harbor was relentlessly targeted during the last two weeks of November. There were a lot of boats catching a lot of big fish in a very small area. Anyone honestly concerned about the welfare of this musky fishery would have been disheartened by what was happening. We didn't want this onslaught to continue for two more weeks into December. That is why we opposed an extension of the Musky season then, and why we (most of us who were around then) oppose it now. This is not the St. Lawrence and we have never commented on anything going on in the St. Lawrence or anywhere else. We didn't even oppose the extension of the Ontario season in the upper Niagara. So please limit your comments to the waters you know.
Thank you.
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Well, but they can still account for CPUE (catch per unit effort) with fewer boats. Any information helps. |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Tony, The NSDEC is looking for a Uniform Great Lakes Muskie Season either Nov 30th or Dec 15th for all NY Waters.I do not believe the NMA. is the
only club that has members that fish for Muskies on Great Lakes Waters, all have the right to be informed of what is going on, everyone who buys a NY fishing license, out of state fishermen as well. The end result can effect the closing date for the Whole Great Lakes Waters of NY.Again you need to prove the 15 days of December will stress the fishery by being open, you can't because you know that colder water iis the less stressful time for releasing Muskies.It went from catching big Muskies in October to November to the last week of November or not at all if we do not get wind induced water temp drop to bring in the forage base(gizzard shad) Now some years the fish show up after the season is closed Nov 30th.Even if the 15 days of December were available to fish, the water could still be to warm, high winds & waves, brown water or snowed in launches.We do not have many boats f fishing in November, were not going to have them in December in the river or the lake.54" sizelimit just about stops any fish from being removed legaly and s anyone fishing that late in the season I'd going to be s diehardt muskie fishermen that knows good catch & release tatics.Big Muskies of giant size are almost always caught in the coldest water period of any open season, everyone should have that chance. |
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| Larry:
Sometimes we need to keep you honest. You should know that the reason we started the pike tournaments was due to a NYPA study showing that the pike population in the upper river was growing and having a negative effect on the survival of musky YOY. We actually hoped to get rid of some of those pike. We failed miserably, as few pike were caught. We also had very strict rules to ensure that no one was trying to catch muskies. And no fishing was allowed in the harbor. At any rate, I don't think any muskies were hooked either.
The pike tourneys weren't popular and we aren't having them anymore.
Tony |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i wish Illinois bordered New York ... :/ |
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| Larry:
We do not want the rest of the Great Lakes to be forced to close their season earlier because of us. But I don't think that is what's going on. I believe we can keep the status quo. So the only issue is whether or not we should extend our season. I do believe that what happened 10 to 15 years ago did damage the harbor fishery (think of all the big spawners we lost). I never want to see it happen again (I guess that's the agenda LR was referring to). I do believe the ADS catch rates are accurate, otherwise it would be a lot easier to catch fish in the Harbor. I don't totally discount the effect of warmer waters, but I think the data I published in our newsletter is accurate (and verifiable) and the effect is minimal.
If the DEC was forcing an all or nothing, I would relent (not happily). But I don't believe they are. I still think we have the option. But it's not my call, anyway. Just my opinion.
Tony |
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| If I remember correctly there was one poor undersized tiger musky that hit the fryer as a result of that pike tournament. Case of misidentification from a spoonfed nma member. It's pretty easy to catch pike all march long in the river, right from shore even. Having a tournament after they spawn to cut their numbers wasn't the brightest of ideas was it. That tournament was ill advised from the start and I cannot believe it went on as long as it did. If that's your goal, to reduce pike numbers you should be out there this month filling your limit daily before they begin to spawn. I still feel that all Niagara musky anglers should be 100% dead against any angling near musky spawning grounds May 1st through June 15. NYS should establish fish sanctuaries for those areas during that time period. There are bigger and more important battles that can be fought and won in the fight to keep this fishery flourishing. |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Tony:{We do not want the rest of the Great Lakes to be forced to close their season earlier because of us. But I don't think that is what's going on. I believe we can keep the status quo. So the only issue is whether or not we should extend our season}
Larry: You stated at a NMA Board Meeting that Steve Lapan emailed you that he was for Nov 30th for the St. Lawrence River,now your saying the possible change is only the Upper Niagara River & Lake Erie.When the NSDEC asked the NY M.I. Chapter 69 for imput on Inland Muskie Season Changes and NY Great Lakes Muskie Season Changes we were told that the NSDEC wanted Uniform Opening & Closing Dates for All Great Lakes Waters.So it will be Nov 30th or Dec 15th for All!
Everyone here on MuskieFirst I'm very sorry to have this thread dragging on going in circles,but the Issue is very important to all the muskie fishermen that fish the NY Great Lakes Waters,it should be answered on March 5th and then we can stop posting on here.
Edited by LarryJones 3/1/2013 5:36 PM
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| 2112. That is exactly it. Its nice that the NMA likes to help the rest of the world out by posting every detail of the 30 inchers they land. I believe they are a good organization,but they are dilusional about some things. You would think Buff harbor being destroyed in front of their eyes would make them think twice about every detail postedon the net. Oh, and they are very anti flourocarbon.. Lol |
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| Niaontario:
I'm unaware of any tiger caught and killed. I doubt that happened. At any rate, I agree that it was a stupid idea (and it was my idea). At times I've done stupid things. Perhaps reacting to whats being said on this site is one of them?
And I agree with you on fishing near spawning grounds. Other than the above bout of stupidity, I am 100% against it (although the pike tournaments were held the first Saturday in May - well before the muskies spawn around here). Unfortunately, we're outnumbered by bass fishermen like a zillion to one. And they like the docks along the shoreline where a lot of small muskies are caught.
We've often talked about having fish sancturies during spawning season. It's something we wish we could have that Ontario has. Again, there's a lot of social-economic issues, but it's something we should take a closer look at with the DEC.
Tony |
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| Larry:
I never received an e-mail from anyone regarding this subject from the DEC, and never said that I did at our board meeting (ask the other 8 board members who were at the meeting) or anywhere else. I believe an e-mail was received by another board member from the Region 9 DEC head indicating that they were considering closing on the 30th. But I don't believe it's all or nothing.
Tony |
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| Guest:
Last year was the first year we had a working website, so it's the only year you would have heard anything about our catches emanating from the NMA on the internet. We have no control what other people post on other sites. Our forum is now only open to members, so you won't be hearing anything more from us, unless you're a member.
I've said enough on this site regarding this discussion thread. So I'm out of here! (hooray, you say?).
Good fishing to all.
Tony |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Well Tony we will find out March 5th how this all plays out,if we do not get Dec 15th for All NY Great Lakes Waters settled with the NSDEC present at the meeting,we can still win at the NYSDEC Public Review Period where every fishermen can voice their opinion.One thing to remember the NMA is only one club,there are 55 more fishing & hunting clubs in Erie county alone to vote and many more county federation's of sportsman's club's in NY state to vote,I will petition them all to vote!Then if the majority of the clubs in NY state want Dec 15th Closing date,I will have a resolution sent to the NY Conservation Council to be sent to the NYSDEC to pass Dec 15th! |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | "we will find out at the March 5th NMA Meeting when the NYSDEC will be present talking about the issue.They are saying the 15 days of December will over stress the fish,but who is kidding who the 15 days of everyone fishing in one spot in Canadian waters is over stressing those fish,the fishing could be spread out through out the river stressing all the fish less." Lary Jones
So what happened |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | At the NSDEC / NMA Meeting last night all presentations done by Mike Wilkinson(Niagara River)& Steve Lapan (St. Lawrence River) were talks telling us that both fisheries have lose of habitat and declining YOY Muskies and overall numbers of fish are down.It seems at one point there was a push to roll back the St.Lawrence River to Nov 30th,but after hearing Steve Lapan he said that may be hard to do.We talked about extended seasons of the Upper Niagara River & Lake Erie,it was said any request would have to show why and what are the benifits on an extended season and that they would alawys side with the fish if anything looked detramental to the survival of the fish.We are waiting for a copy of the NSDEC's Power Point Program that if put up would better explain there position.There was a little talk on muskies that may get cut and how would those cuts heal in colder water,there were thaughts that the cuts may take longer to heal in colder water,but there was no real proof that they would not heal properly,no study to this point,so they just did not know.It was brought up that muskies that are cut in warm water periods were more likely to get an infection and the stress level would be higher with more delayed mortality then in cooler waters,more so due to less oxygen in warm water and more oxygen in colder water.They touched on possibly going to Artificial Baits Only for Muskie fishing in the Upper Niagara River & Lake Erie.The NMA will have a mailed Ballot Vote on Muskie Season Starting Dates & Closing Dates,the Harbor & River will be seperate votes,details of how the Ballots will be composed will come out once they are written by the NMA Board and ready to be mailed to active members.Mike Clancy briefly talked about the Inland Muskie Season Changes for 2014,Opener of Memorial Day Weekend and closing on Nov 30th,with a 40" sizelimit state wide on all waters not already having a larger sizelimit.All Great Lakes Waters in NY State will have a 54" Sizelimit.I will post more on last nights meeting once I get all the correct facts from the meetings minutes
Edited by LarryJones 3/7/2013 10:03 PM
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Posts: 1247
Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | • Tuesday, March 12, 2013: 7:00 p.m. – 9:30 p.m. at the Carlson Auditorium, in the Chester F. Carlson Center for Imaging Science building (76-1125) on the Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) campus, Rochester, Monroe County. The meeting is co-hosted by RIT and the Monroe County Fishery Advisory Board
Tonight's State of Lake Ontario Meeting Steve Lapan will bring up the NY Great Lakes Muskie Season Changes,if you missed the NMA Meeting March 5th here is your chance to voice your opinion on a possible extension of the muskie season on the Upper Niagara River & Lake Erie to Dec 15th.
After the NMA Meeting there were a number of fishermen that were for a July 1st Opener and Dec 15th Closing Date,taking the extra stress off post spawn muskies for 2 weeks durring the present 3rd Saturday in June start.I hope to see a few muskie fishermen there tonight,I know that the NY M.I. Chapter 69 will have many members present |
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NY Great Lakes Muskie Season Changes