|
|
| I love to fish open water for "suspended" fish, however some friends and I have been debating whether any truly BIG fish are actually caught out in "open water". The first part of the debate is usually over what is the definition of "open water" and "suspended". I've caught fish up to 50 inches that I consider "suspended"... but the real question is whether they were in "open water" or not.
Just how far out in the middle of nowhere does a fish need to be before you consider it an "open water" fish? A cast length from structure? 100 yards? A mile? Over the basin?
I figured this would be a good debate to kick off the winter season. Just what defines a fish as "suspended" and what is considered "open water". And the most important question.... can you catch a 40+ pound class fish suspended in open water?
jlong | |
| | |
| Jason there are no big fish in open water. [;)]
Now what is open water? Well I would suggest that anything that is more then a cast away from any kind of structure. Now deep open waters are more then a cast away from structure as well as a cast away form 10' of water depths and must be 20+ feet deep.
P.S. Very few of all the 35+ pounders to ever visit my boat have been caught in under 10' of water or within a cast of structure. [:sun:] | |
| | |
| Ya' know Long, it's a little early in the off season to be stiring the pot like this...[;)]
Here's my interpetaion, based on experience and the thoughts running around in my little head...
I do think "big" (using your definition) fish can be caught open water...now...I personally am still looking for my first 40+lber, I have been close several times. I have seen and hooked but lost[:blackeye:] several fish that I thought would have legitimately went over 40 in what I consider open/suspended conditions.
That being said...here's my take on "open/suspended" and the word "structure".
I consider "open water" or fish described as "suspended/suspendo's" as fish/conditions that are not directly related to orienting themselves to weed beds, wood, rocky points or what we tend to consider shore line/shallow water structure.
The variable is how far away do they need to be to be classified as true "suspedos"...the ones that some believe (myself included) only come shallow in spring for spawning and in fall to feed before going deep for winter months.
I'm not sure if there is a definative answer to the "how far away" or "how deep does the water need to be" question but I tend to know when I'm "throwing" at what many anglers call structure and when I'm throwing at something I can't directly see with my own eyes...which brings up another point.
I consider "structure" to be a variety of items that can be described as something that will hold fish in a given area.
Examples of open water structure that I fish regularly are, mid-lake humps, schools of bait fish, bottom transition areas, underwater points not related to shoreline features, and last but not least the thermocline.
All of these things are types of "structure" and will hold fish. One of the problems with many new anglers or those that are intimidated by getting out in the middle is that they don't know how to identify mid-lake/open water structure. Psychologically it is hard for most people to cast into oblivian and not directly at "structure" they can see or know is there, i.e. edge of weed bed or shoreline point, rocks, etc.
Such is my attempt to take a stab at your questions..[:bigsmile:] Good topic of debate/discussion...
I better get back to work...I hear the boss coming down the hall..[:0]
Mark | |
| | |
| After two decades of casting for open water, suspended muskies, I agree with Richard...there are no big fish in open water. [;)]
Technically, a musky can be suspended in 5 ft of water. Seriously though, I don't consider a musky a suspended fish unless it's over at least 20 ft of water. A classic "open water" fish in my mind is one that is following the "living structure", i.e. the schools of suspended bait fish...ciscoes, whitefish, smelt, etc. I used to also think that a true "open water" fish did not move to shallow water except for spawning or during the Fall transition. However, this definition was shattered by my own experience when one year we caught a 48" musky suspended over 70 ft of water, 400 yards from the nearest structural element. My friend elected to keep this fish (his biggest). When the taxidermist emptied the stomach contents, there were numerous Rusty crawfish inside. Obviously this fish had been in fairly shallow water taking advantage of a feeding opportunity the previous day.
I have caught suspended muskies right off of structure and over a half mile from the nearest classic structural element. I am very comfortable fishing in "the middle of nowhere". While some look at fishing a vast open water stretch as mind boggling, I look at it as an endless 10 ft deep flat with muskies available at every cast (regardless of the depth I'm over). Best of all, most of the time you don't have to worry about boat control.
In regard to big fish, I too am looking to boat my first 40 lb'er. I've been fortunate to catch several hundred WI legal muskies in suspended, open water conditions, with over 100 20+ lb class fish, several dozen 25+ lb class muskies, and a few 30 lb class fish boated. I have hooked into some suspended monsters...fish that have stopped me cold in my tracks, collapsed hook tips back onto the main shank, bit me off clean (leader and all), broke lips out of crankbaits, and cracked crankbaits in two pieces. I did not get to see exactly how big these fish were, but I'm certain they were larger than anything I've boated over the last 20 years. The largest suspended WI fish that I missed, in which I did get a good look at its size, was 55-56" back in 1999.
Mike | |
| | |
| TTAM makes a good point... which is primarily why I posed the initial question.
I still love to fish "open water" but often question if I am actually just fishing some form of structure that is related to deep water. Probably just semantics... but it could be a significant observation when exploring new frontiers as fishing pressure continues to increase.
Fishing open water for supsendos seems to be the latest and greatest technique (even though many good sticks have been doing it for years) that is getting a lot of press. My personal experience with truly large fish seems to be in favor of "structure" and what I consider to be true open water, BASIN fish are mostly in the 25 pound class range.
My recent thoughts to defend this observation that perhaps big fish cannot be found in open water is one of simple probability. Perhaps the increased number of contacts with BIG fish ON or near structure is because it reduces the randomness of finding the "needle in the haystack"???? Think about it... if a 500 acre lake has a 40 pounder swimming in it, and the fish uses the entire lake... there is an endless amount of space for that fish to live and hide. But, if you know a few specific pieces of strucure that the fish will eventually frequent.... that narrows down the places for you to invest your time. Spend more time on those specific spots/areas and the PROBABILITY of you being there at the same time as the fish increases... and the better chance (probability) you have of seeing... and maybe even catching it.
So... I don't plan to reduce the amount of time I spend in "open water" based on the above theory. Especially on those smaller Wisconsin Gin Bottles. Why? Because I feel that there are things we can do to increase the probability of consistently contacting a super tanker out in the "open water" AND if the big girl ain't home on the "known" structures.... I don't have the time to sit and wait for her to show up. On a huge body of water like LOTW... you can just zoom off to the next "proven" structure, but many of the lakes I fish only have a handful of "spots" and then you must look to the basin and baitfish for "new" structures.
Also, from the lack of responses to this post it tells me that not many people are really spending quality (intelligent) time out in deep water.... which also supports why more big fish encounters are still coming shallow. More people fish shallow... so more big fish encounters should be in shallow water. Seems pretty simple to me. Kinda like the black bucktail or moon stuff... a potential self-fulfilling prophecy.
OK.... so after reading all my jibber jabber... what do you think? I'd really like to hear more testimonials to support one way or the other whether a big fat giant monster of a musky can be caught in "open water".
jlong | |
| | |
| I guess I must love to talk about suspended fish....so I'll throw a little more into this discussion. Keep in mind, I respect the opinions of others as not all water or fishing experiences will be the same. I'm just relating what I have observed and this is mainly from the Wisconsin waters I fish...not Canada. When I have fished in Canada I fished alot of classic structure along with open water.
First, my experience with territorialism and small fish being pushed into open water (anon #1). There are several points to make here based on my experience and that of my diehard open water casting friends;
1) In open water scenarios I have repeatedly witnessed multiple big fish in the same location (also supported by the 1986 In-Fisherman report from Larry Ramsell in Eagle Lake tracking studies). The most fish I've physically observed in a group was 5 muskies within about a 400 sq ft area (1-2 ft down over 50 ft deep). I've had several occurrences of multiple big fish following the same cast back to the boat...most notably a fish of 48" with a second about 52" right beside and a ft deeper chasing the bait back to the boat.
2) If you consistently fish shallow water, your average musky length will generally be much lower. We've always considered the shallow water areas in the deep lakes we fish the "nursery" water. While big fish can be caught in shallow water in a deep lake (and we've done that), your hours/big fish caught, I believe, will be much lower concentrating in the deeper water areas. Also, your small fish catches will be minimized. Rarely when fishing deep, open water do we catch an undersized fish. In fact, several of my friends and I repeatedly compared how many seasons we'd gone without catching an undersized musky. For me the longest was an 8 year stretch in the 90's and I caught many, many muskies during that period. (this may sound like b.s. to some, but it is absolutely true).
I had a musky fishing friend recently at work who I know thought all of this was b.s. He had been fishing shorelines/shallow structure for 3 years, had not caught a legal yet, and the biggest fish he'd seen was 36". So I invited him out. His first day on the water (deep, open) we boated 2 42"ers and a 44" plus two bonus walleyes. The next day he boated a 45". That 1.5 day trip he caught his first two legals, 42" and 45", and we finished the trip with 42",42",43",44",45", and 34". He has since caught about 15 legals with me and no undersized fish.
3) Big muskies are "biologically efficient". As anon #2 stated, why chase 3" perch or even a 12" sucker in the weeds when you can fire into a school of fat, oily ciscoes to satisfy your hunger pangs. This puts the big muskies in open water and keeps many of the smaller fish on the classic, shallow water areas.
In regard to trolling open water (anon #2)...
1) I do agree in situations where you have vast areas of water to cover (Lake St Clair, Georgian Bay, Ottawa or Niagara River systems, main basin of Trout Lake-Vilas Cty), trolling is the way to go as you can cover a pile of water in short order. It is mentally tough to stick with a 3 hour straight line drift through a potentially productive spot in a large basin. Also, trolling is likely more productive if the fish are suspended really deep...like 25 ft down or deeper.
2) However, when you know where the fish are...or a relatively small basin is being fished, casting is definitely the more efficient way to trigger fish to strike. Especially "neutral mood" fish. When worked properly, a casted lure can be made to appear as a realistic, dying, easy target baitfish. As I mentioned in a post some time ago, Bob Ellis (the great Boulder Junction open water row troller) would often stop by and see what we were up to. Based on our presentation style, etc, even he felt casting could trigger more fish.
As another point to this, we have caught fish casting into the "wash" of boats backtrolling by us. On those particular cases, the steady flash of a trolled lure did not trigger a musky vs. the random, belly roll, dying fish dart of a properly retrieved lure.
Jason L,
I do agree with your comments on the self-fulfilling prophecy and the simple low probability of locating a monster in the deep open water environment. I have been frustrated by this, sometimes observing a large fish at one location, only to see it again (identifying by a physically defining body mark, scar, etc) in a completed different locale hundreds of yards away..or more. When weather conditions, etc are peak you simply do not know exactly where that monster will be this time. Your best shot is trying to identify the most likely area where the baitfish will be piled up...a spring, over an unmarked very deep structural element (a rise to 35ft in 60), a deep water neckdown area, etc.
I do enjoy quality (intelligent) open water fishing time and sharing company with those who have an open mind and are willing to share their thoughts, experiences, etc. Most of the time in the boat, I even try to not talk "paper" (lol). [;)]
Mike | |
| | |
| Maybe "open water" means something different between anglers and can be different from one body of water to the next. Now let me state by experience with big fish (35 or so over 25 lbs this year alone ) that all have been caught in or near deep water. Yes I have caught 50+ inchers in 3 to 5 feet of water but they all were a cast away from deeper waters ( 20+ feet ). Now lets cut the numbers down with fish over 35lbs and all those have come trolling open waters. Now we just don't close our eyes and troll the middle of large areas but it is controlled trolling patterns. Now those can be troling depth changes as primary and secondary drop offs, soft to hard bottom transitions, current breaks, temperature breaks, eddys, walls, weed edges, bait, humps, tip of points ect. ect. and even a combination of one or more of them. Now some will say that all those are stuctures well they may be so but then again large rivers all have those same factors from one end to the other you just have to find the ones that attract fish. What I am saying is if you were to cut across a large river from one side to the other you will most likely encounter 75% or more of the "structures" I mentioned above. Another thing you will notice is that you will start in 0 feet of water and end in 0 feet of water but will see everything in between with depths down to hundreads of feet, the main depth of the river here is 75++ feet. Like shallow areas of the river will have depth of 35-50 feet in the main channel. I have trolling runs that I have a very skinny route to stay on the correct depths that I call walking on the fence. What I mean is a couple of feet towards the shore can be real shallow as well as a couple of feet towards the middle can be really deep, and they tell us trolling is easy and toughtless. LOL So you can have your boat in 50 to 100 feet of water and cast to cat tails. LOL So I see open waters as anything that is more then a cast away from structure wich is sholine on island related.
Jason Just one hint here, all of us Canadian nuts looking for the biggest fish in the pound do know that she lives out in the deep open waters and never will be found shallow. How else do you think she will ever get to 65+ pounds. Even those 40 pounders I catch are fish that spend most their lives in deep open waters but I take advantage of the cooling waters moving the bait up shallower ( 20 to 40 feet of water ) in late fall to catch me a couple. [:p] | |
| | |
| Hmmmm... so some do believe that big fish exist out there in "open water" or at least in "deep water". I believe it too. However, the real question is how do you increase your chances of contacting the "big girl" while she is out "over" deep water? Some pretty good sticks made reference to "other" forms of structures that begin to develop when you take a much closer look at what is going on "out there".
Thus, perhaps if you are in a real argumentative mood we could say that all muskies are relating to some form of structure at all times... whether it is a physical structure (breakline, rock bar, underwater point, saddle,etc.), living structure (baitfish), or something inbetween (current, thermocline, etc.).
Perhaps fishing "open water" for "suspendos" is situation specific? Meaning in some lakes where "physical" structure is overly abundant it will dominate? Baitfish types may also limit the potential for "open water" opportunies. Toss in size and depth of certain lakes and this opportunity may be seasonal or maybe even non-existent? Perhaps this is why some feel to fish for suspendos on Lake of the Woods is futile... or at least a poor investment of your time? Yet some WI boys who are limited to lakes less than 500 acres seem to depend on the "open water" opportunity to keep consistent results?
So... put all that aside and say you are on a lake where BOTH opportunities present themselves. How do you determine which one to test out first??? Do you spot check a few physical structures (and perhaps shallow structures) first or head right to your favorite baitfish-filled basin???
I believe that angling pressure will certainly become one of the most significant factors for aswering that question in the future. How about you?
jlong | |
| | |
| MikeT.....I agree with all of your comments 100%. I can also say from experience fishing a variety of Canadian lakes that the same things happen here in Canada.
The question of where to fish in a lake that presents both good "open water" and shallow structure - the best place would be where the shallow structure meets or reaches out into the "open water". This allows the big lazy fish to easily make the transition from deep to shallow. This intersection is where I have seen my biggest fish. The key is to be able to determine which of these intersections will hold fish at specific times. This is when weather and seasonal conditions must be related to both muskies and their forage. | |
| | |
| Jlong exacly what you just said but we do not believe the biggest fish in the system to be out in deep water but we know it for a fact. Take a guy and send him trolling large baits over deep water from opener untill ice out and you will see him catch very few fish but I bet he will get a lot of those super fish. The reason we don't catch those bigger fish in the summer is that they are following baitfish out in depths ( fish not bottom ) of 40 to 80 feet and out of range to be caught, yes we can use downriggers to get to them but we can also kill an awfull lot of them with the benz and air blader problems.
I know in large rivers for sure there is always a reason for a muskie to be where it is. It can be food, confort or a traveling route.
Just one more tought, if the biggest of fish ever ventured shallow would we not see more of them caught since over 90% of anglers fish the shallows vs the deep waters. They are fat and lazy and have no need to venture shallow to chase bait but would rather stay deep near baitfish schools and pig out whenever they feel like it. Another reason they are harder to catch, fish do not get girths in excess of 24 inches by not feeding like pigs.
Go look at the pig pictured on the front page, by the coloring you can see it's a fish who spent all of her time in deep water. Now visit my site and look at the fattys they are mosely the same bland color from staying in deep and open water. Now look at the not so fat ones and see they are much darker and better marked from spending some time shallow. [:sun:] | |
| | |
| Well, of course there are super fish in open water, the biggest problem is to come in contact with them. Here's what I've found on the LOTWs and other large Ontario trophy muskie lakes that I've fished.
First, I think that there is a size progression from basically staying shallow when you are a small fish to going to deeper waters as you get larger to take advantage of the larger forage that's available.
If I fish areas that are not able to support tullibee in the summer (to shallow, and too warm), I see a general reduction in the general overall size of the fish I catch/or see. At least after what I would consider to be the post spawn season. This tells me that there is a general movement from shallow water to deeper water as the fish become larger. I know if I fish what I consider to be the "main channels" (deeper water) the fish size increases about four inches in average size, as does the chance for a truely large fish. There are still some large fish in the shallows but percentage wise the numbers aren't as good.
I also find this. The amount of truely open water on most of the large Ontario muskies lakes is basically "TOO MUCH" and you can waste so much time looking for a large muskie on true open water that your catch rate will go so low that you will finely "give up" trying to find the open water bite. If you are trying to cast you will find that there are miles of bait fish. Where do you start? It would seem that trolling would be the answer, but remember that you can only use one line in Ontario, and the amount of water you can cover is very limited. I've thought about a party barge with 10 folks or so all pulling lines and drinking beer (not legal in Canada), and barbequing a steak well waiting for a open water muskie, and I think I would catch some if I would do that, and no doubt some big fish. However, I doubt that I'll ever get this done.
So here's what I do! I look for what I call "concentrators". These are things like humps, points, saddles (can be quite large), bays, weeds, and all the usually things that you expect to look for when you are trying to locate muskie, but I concentrate my search for big fish along the main channels, except for early in the season. It also might be some sort of structure that I think that fish pass through, (travel areas), but rarely pure open water. To me something that concentrates fish is the key, otherwise you will be spending lots of time where there may be fish but not enough to produce fish on a consistant basis. It becomes pretty much a percentage game!
On small Wisconsin lakes it's probably the only deep basin on the lake, or maybe a small hump in the middle (true open water). It might be a school of bait fish in the middle of this basin, or what ever you think may gather muskies together, it may not be structure at all, but a current or temperature break. However, on the big lakes of Ontario I find that trying to fish bait fish or a deep water area is pretty frustrating as they are almost endless.
No doubt there are large fish in open water, at least on the large Ontario lakes, the problem is to find them on a consistant basis. I think you are better off trying to figure out where they are in more perdictable spots, as they do not spend 100% of their time in open water. To me it looks like even the folks on the Ottawa and Georgian Bay are fishing some sort of "concentrator" and not just "open water".
Doug Johnson
| |
| | |
| Well, I'd have to say so far this has been one of the best dialogues on "open water" I've seen in a long time.
DougJ, well said.
Richard,
Your results are certainly some of the best around and someday I will have to make the trip over to your neck of the woods. I can't imagine being blessed enough to have the quality of fish you guys have at your finger tips. And believe me, I know they just don't fall into the boat...there is alot of skill and technique/detail that you have developed in order to be as successfull as you are.
JasonL,
To answer your question as to where to start when you arrive at "lake X" when both shallow and deep opportunities present themselves, I can only say that since 1985 I have typically just run my boat out into the main basin and started fishing (right or wrong). Having grown up on Big Arbor Vitae Lake, my initial musky fishing was the classic drift the "center bar". I soon got tired of the competition and pulling weeds off my line. Plus I fished alot of hours with little to show for it except countless smaller "follows".
Even when I fished in the Georgian Bay area, we went right to a deep water "access" locale. However, it wasn't in the middle of the 5000 acre basin it ajoined (as dougJ stated...too much water). It was a location similar to what crazycanuck said about finding an area where the shallow structure meets the open water. For our last trip we drove straight through 11 hours with little sleep. We quickly unpacked and headed straight to an area that had a 4 ft deep (1/2 acre) weed bar surrounded by a 45 ft deep shelf that eventually dropped into 130+ ft. We made about 6 casts near the edge of the 45 ft to 130 ft transition (about 75 yards from the bar)when my friend lasily laid back into a hookset and all he got back was a 10" weight forward bucktail bent in a 120 degree angle. It wasn't from a 45"er either. [:0]
Mike | |
| | |
| I have really enjoyed reading this thread firstly, secondly when me and my partner go to the Moon River we look at a number of factors choosing our locations to fish. Ya we have our favorite spots that we like to fish but always and I mean always these spots are right next to water which is deep meaning 20+ ft. And when we fish the areas we do there is always someone casting the "open" water side, while the other is casting into shallow water which is usually for us 8-10 feet (dont like going shallower). We have found and Mr. Mills will agree (see man on the moon Musky Hunter)that 90% of the big fish will come off the deep side of the boat.These fish are usually suspended in about (like I said) 20 ft+ of water. So this next year '03 we are going to key in on these deeper fish, and probrably even venture out into the green water of Georgian Bay. Like Richard said, that from day 1 to the last day of the year if you troll deep water the numbers will be down but quality up, thats what we want to go for. I mean really, how many of you really want to dink around the lake for smaller fish, when you can have the opportunity (or at least put the numbers in your favour) to get a fish of a lifetime or even a record?
Musk. | |
| | |
| Question for those of you that troll deep water, say 50 feet or better. I don't get much of this in wisconsin. Do you find that a two to say a 4 or five foot break in those depths draw fish? Do these small breaks at those depths or deeper influence your trolling patterns?
Thanks and Happy new year....pfeiff | |
| | |
| I have some water on Pelican and other similar lakes where I fish the second to last or last (basinline) break out over what would appear to be 'open water'. The 18' breakline on Pelican is massive in length, snaking along the entire eastern end of the lake. It is only a minor difference from the shallower break staging down to it, and can have a gradual, mildly sharp, or very sharp break off the edge 18'to as much as 40'. There doesn't appear to be any 'spot on the spot' on this edge, and the fish move along it quite a distance, it seems.
The 18' line holds fish all along it's length, usually suspended at the primary break level at the closest structure. Off Antigo Island, for example, the primary is about 12'. If the fish are not there, it is a pretty good bet they are suspended 12' down over 18, or JUST off the 18' line a bit deeper, but still suspended at 12'.
If anyone saw me fishing this area, it would be assumed I was drifting 'open water', when in fact I am fishing a very defined breakline.
Big fish out there? Sure. I know of several over 50" that came from that pattern, three of which came for me on a Creature.
What are the fish relating to as forage there? Perch. | |
| | |
| The two biggest fish I ever seen in WI.(40lb plus & for sure 50lbs)were in 73ft and 98ft no structure anywhere near. The big girl looked like a Jap Mini Sub! Brought her up on a Bobbie-sue![:bigsmile:] | |
| | |
| Well, DougJ does it again. He takes a very complicated subject and simplifies it so almost any musky fisherman can make sense of it all and apply his experience. Thanks Doug!!!! I love it when you chime in and offer your words of wisdom. It helps make everyone a better fishermen.
I think the most important comment Doug made was the idea that too much open water is ALMOST futile to target.... which is why his "concentrator" concept is so beautiful. However, I feel that is the difference between chasing ski on the gigantic shield waters versus the typical midwestern potholes. The basin on many Wisconsin Waters is smaller than some of the good structures on LOTW. Thus, I never get the urge to fish "open water" when I am on a shield lake.
I am good friends with TR and his big fish encounters are legit and truly "open water" situations. But.. those encounters were in Wisconsin where the "open water" is smaller and a little more realistic to target.
But... back to the topic at hand. IF we are going to brave the wide open spaces looking for suspendos... how do you create some method to the madness??? Let's learn how to discover some "hidden" structures out there to guide us!
jlong | |
| | |
| First, I think you should separate trolling from casting in regards to open water hunts for Muskies. Where multi-line trolling is permited 3 people in a boat are able to strain a lot of water. In wisconsin the row trollers are scoring large fish many out of "open warer' or structure related to "open/deep water".
However, I still think that "open water" Muskie hunting it's a game of probability, looking for that needle in a haystack. Wisconsin puts their needles in relatively small haystacks while Minnesota has some very large haystacks. In wisconsin your best bet is row trolling. Or, if casting, lots if time on the water, concentrating on one or two lakes that have a reputation for having a population of large suspended Muskies.
| |
| |
|
Are there big fish in "open water"?