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Posts: 1516
| What is considered a "fishable" population of muskie in a lake. How many fish per acre is considered "fishable" and worth ones time? |
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Posts: 618
Location: Michigan | I believe most 'healthy' populations have 1 adult fish/acre or at least that is what DNR stocking efforts try to attain. |
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | jasonvkop - 11/21/2012 9:47 AM
I believe most 'healthy' populations have 1 adult fish/acre or at least that is what DNR stocking efforts try to attain.
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Most popular musky lakes have less than that. 1 per acre is a lot more than you would think. In a lake like Lake Minnetonka (metro MN lake) I think it is 1 fish per 1.89 acres. May even be a little less. Some lakes do have more and some have WAY less. I would say that in reality it's about 1 per every 1.5 - 2 acres.
If a lake has 1 for every one acre there or more, there are a lot of fish in that lake, and generally speaking the lake would be classified as a numbers lake |
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Posts: 1146
| I think the term "fishable" means just about any measurable population.
.25 or less is definitely "fishable" and more in line with most "trophy" lakes.
.5 fish/acre is a good population of muskies.
Anything over 1 per/acre is few and far between. Maybe 5 lakes total in the state (WI) from what I have seen.
I keep the most recent information I can find in a spreadsheet and estimates vary a lot, For example:
Big Arbor Vitae = .59
Horsehead Lake = .99
Kentuck = .26
Lac Vieux Desert = .20
Star = .10
Trout = .06
Edited by MartinTD 11/21/2012 10:13 AM
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Posts: 242
| From what I've heard, the number for a healthy lake is 1 adult muskie (a fish over 30 inches) per surface acre. As mentioned earlier, from my experience, the lakes that have less than this usually put out bigger fish and ones with more put out a lot of numbers, but not much size. |
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Posts: 619
| Lake Minnetonka is 14,729.56 acres and is estimated to have less than 1000 muskies in it . My experience would say it probably has well less than 1000. |
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Posts: 1146
| I have to disgree with 1 fish per acre being a "healthy lake."
I am comfortable saying .25 fish per acre (1 every 4 surface acres) should be considered a "healthy lake." With anything below that being trophy waters and above that being numbers lakes.
Really, over one fish per acre is very high and almost unheard of. Don't confuse the population estimate numbers (fish/acre) with the stocking numbers (fish/acre). Also, remember these are estimates that the DNR gathers from shocking, fyke netting, creel surveys, and more. And, there may be lakes that have large basins or other features where it is difficult for the DNR to get collect accurate data and the numbers can be way off. Therefore, the DNR's lake classification system is not gospel. Enough said. |
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Posts: 833
| The efficacy of that measure probably depends as much on the nature of the lake as it does the fishable population. Some high acreage lakes are basically featureless, thus depsite high acreage, the habitat is smaller. Mille Lacs is an example here, sure it has lots of reefs, etc, but it also has vast expanses of open water. Compare to say Minnetonka, which at 14,500 acres is still big, but has tons and tons of structure. Very different systems, different forage bases, etc.
Edited by Brad P 11/21/2012 10:55 AM
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Posts: 618
Location: Michigan |
Don't confuse the population estimate numbers (fish/acre) with the stocking numbers (fish/acre).
This is where I messed up. Lots of the lakes around me are stocked at 1 fish/acre, but obviously a lot of fish won't make it to adulthood. .25 fish/acre definitely makes more sense.
Also, remember these are estimates that the DNR gathers from shocking, fyke netting, creel surveys, and more. And, there may be lakes that have large basins or other features where it is difficult for the DNR to get collect accurate data and the numbers can be way off. Therefore, the DNR's lake classification system is not gospel. Enough said.
Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but am just curious - I totally understand how those methods can have misleading results, but what are you using to say .25 fish/acre then? If one simply goes by how many fish her or she catches/contacts throughout the year then those results can be very inaccurate as well. |
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Posts: 1146
| Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but am just curious - I totally understand how those methods can have misleading results, but what are you using to say .25 fish/acre then? If one simply goes by how many fish her or she catches/contacts throughout the year then those results can be very inaccurate as well.
Assuming the DNR estimates are in fact accurate is where I would say .25 could be used as a benchmark.
On the other hand, the data collection methods are not always accurate or the most current so lake X that has a pop. est. of .67 fish/acre may be significantly lower if the last data was gathered 10 yrs ago and vice versa. A class C lake could be loaded with fish.
I guess you need to have a little faith in the numbers the DNR provides but do not be afraid to go outside of that.
Edited by MartinTD 11/21/2012 11:29 AM
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| Slow Rollin - 11/21/2012 10:49 AM
Lake Minnetonka is 14,729.56 acres and is estimated to have less than 1000 muskies in it . My experience would say it probably has well less than 1000.
Apologize for slight derail: I've heard the 1000 fish number before. Where does it come from? I think it is larger than that, but that is just theorizing on my part.
Edited by Brad P 11/21/2012 12:49 PM
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Posts: 1516
| according to the DNR since 2003 there have been 9,830 yearlings & fingerlings stocked into Minnetonka plus 1,295 adult fish. Assuming 3/4 of the adult fish are still living and 1/3 of the finglings and yearlings made that would put the population at 4,215 or .286/acre. |
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Brad P - 11/21/2012 12:48 PM
Slow Rollin - 11/21/2012 10:49 AM
Lake Minnetonka is 14,729.56 acres and is estimated to have less than 1000 muskies in it . My experience would say it probably has well less than 1000.
Apologize for slight derail: I've heard the 1000 fish number before. Where does it come from? I think it is larger than that, but that is just theorizing on my part.
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From getting more and more involved with muskies INC. I would also agree with Brad P. I will have to do some more digging to see what I can find out about lake Minnetonka
Edited by FAT-SKI 11/21/2012 1:53 PM
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Pepper - 11/21/2012 1:37 PM
according to the DNR since 2003 there have been 9,830 yearlings & fingerlings stocked into Minnetonka plus 1,295 adult fish. Assuming 3/4 of the adult fish are still living and 1/3 of the finglings and yearlings made that would put the population at 4,215 or .286/acre.
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Curious, do you know if these number are DNR specific or stocking specific??? Muskies INC chapters do a lot of stocking in Lakes all over including Lake Minnetonka. Just curious if those numbers are included as well? Or if you don't know that is fine, I was just asking out of shear curiosity...
Edited by FAT-SKI 11/21/2012 1:57 PM
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Posts: 187
Location: West Metro, MN | This is something that I have wondered about more than a couple of times after not seeing a fish for hours. My best guess is that the estimates that the DNR provides when they do spring netting and/or electrofishing combinded with some estimations of mortality related to stocking efforts are the best info I think we can get. Different lakes are obviously managed differently too. There are some smaller lakes that are managed for a higher fish per acre ratio, but I doubt there are many larger lakes that are anywhere close to 1 fish per acre. I fish primarily in the TC Metro area and i think somewhere about .25 fish over 30" per acre seems about right to me. That would estimate about 200-300 fish in lakes like Bald Eagle, Sugar, and Indy, and would but about 3500 in Minnetonka.
Edited by jasond 11/21/2012 1:57 PM
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| Brad P - 11/21/2012 12:48 PM
Slow Rollin - 11/21/2012 10:49 AM
Lake Minnetonka is 14,729.56 acres and is estimated to have less than 1000 muskies in it . My experience would say it probably has well less than 1000.
Apologize for slight derail: I've heard the 1000 fish number before. Where does it come from? I think it is larger than that, but that is just theorizing on my part.[/QUOTE
Dont wanna name any names and could be inaccurate and nothing to back that up... if i had to bet and put money down i would call it one of the lowest population lakes per acre lake - IMO of course |
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | someone correct me if I am wrong, But I believe that Lake St. Clair has one of the highest fish per acre populations of any musky lake in the country. And I believe it is right around 1.3 fish per acre. But I also could be thinking of a different lake. Please someone pipe up and let me know what they think, because this is a thought in my mind I just don't trust...
Edited by FAT-SKI 11/21/2012 2:05 PM
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Posts: 1146
| Don't know about LSC but out of all the information I've gathered for Wisconsin, Amnicon Lake in Douglas County has 1.81 fish/acre. That is the estimate from 2006 @ 426 acres, est. 771 adults, and listed as a natural reproduction lake. That is the highest I've seen. Data is not available for all WI lakes and I don't know if MN or MI offer the same type of information at all.
Edited by MartinTD 11/21/2012 2:15 PM
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Posts: 1516
| The info came from the Lake Information report put out by the DNR and includes stockings paid for by private groups and individuals. I pulled the survival assumptions out of the air. |
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Pepper - 11/21/2012 2:19 PM
The info came from the Lake Information report put out by the DNR and includes stockings paid for by private groups and individuals. I pulled the survival assumptions out of the air.
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Thank you |
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Posts: 8831
| Based on everything I've read, .5 fish/acre is about average, and what you could expect to find in a balanced ecosystem where muskies reproduce.
As for what's "fishable"? Depends on what you want. I'd rather fish a low-desnsity lake, catch one fish, and have it be a good one. But that's just me. |
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| I've always wondered about that "1000" muskies in Tonka! I've heard it several times also. My observations (not scientific) lead me to believe there are WAY more than 1000 muskies in Tonka. My boat has caught 10% of the available fish per year multiple times in the last five seasons??? I'm not even close to that good!! Plus the 100s of follows. I'd bet there are close to 1000 muskies caught per year out there. 100 boats...10 fish per boat...doesn't seem that far off to me! My numbers were slightly lower the last two seasons but thats due to less TOW and not fishing due to high temps. Still managed 30+ and 5 over 50 this year despite June and July off due to my wedding and high temps. IMHO still a very healthy population and good density in Tonka. |
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Posts: 415
| Most of the inidana lakes are stocked at 5 fish per acre. I've read that they estimate Webster to have almost 5 adult fish per acre. This however is obviously nowhere near the norm. Some of the lakes in the northern lower peninsula of Michigan have incredibly low densities. I've heard estimates on lakes like Lake Bellaire (where the state record was just caught) of possibly only 1 adult fish per 100 acres. That's tough fishing.
Edited by Ja Rule 11/21/2012 2:59 PM
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | I talked to a very viable source. Not going to name any names... But he told me that Lake Minnetonka is managed to hold anywhere from 1,200 - 1,500 adults at any time (adult meaning 30"+).
I would have to assume that the numbers are somewhere in that range. That sounds about right to me |
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Posts: 410
Location: Wakefield, MI | Never thought of this before but it seems strange that two of the lakes I fish could have a population as low as 50 adults in one and 15-20 on the other. One day my dad caught 4 fish over 40" on a 35 acre lake, find it hard to believe he caught a quarter of the adult population in a couple of hours.
Where are you guys getting your numbers from? DNR website have this information? I'd be curious to see the lakes that I fish. |
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Posts: 192
| In Illinois, Kinkaid usually gets 2000 stocked fish per year (11" to 13" fish) and the lake is 2700 acres. Due to a special request as a result of a big flood loss last year, we got more like 3500 eleven inchers this year. We have no natural reproduction in Kinkaid. Also, we have tough, hot summers so I'm sure we lose a lot of fish every year due to heat stress. Also, our fish grow faster but die younger than the fish up north, I think 9 or 10 years old is probably the max they live down here. The fisheries guy from the DNR samples every year and reports back to our MI club but he doesn't do a statistical population analysis even though a high percentage of the fish are tagged. My guess is Kinkaid has 1.5 fish per acre but unfortunately not real data to back that up. |
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| Georgian bay = 1 fish per 1000000 acres haha |
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Location: oswego, il | Steve Pallo once told me that good natural reproduction stocks a lake at around .25 an acre. Everything is relative to fish size, population and a lakes ability to produce or not, size and or numbers of fish.
Edited by ToddM 11/21/2012 8:10 PM
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Posts: 458
| FAT-SKI - 11/21/2012 2:03 PM
someone correct me if I am wrong, But I believe that Lake St. Clair has one of the highest fish per acre populations of any musky lake in the country. And I believe it is right around 1.3 fish per acre. But I also could be thinking of a different lake. Please someone pipe up and let me know what they think, because this is a thought in my mind I just don't trust...
I had read it was Webster lake in Indiana. |
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Posts: 142
| Dcnr puts 5 fish in acre here in nepa. Fingerlings. The waters they stock musky are heavily saturated with pickerel. I bet the survival rate of the fingerlings is ridiculously low. It makes me kind of sad because some of the lakes here would be excellent musky fisheries. |
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| I agree with Ben Olsen on his Tonka observations. The 1000 number seems absurd. A buddy and I have caught 17 different fish from a smallish spot in the back of a small dead end bay in the last month and a half. We are also no Tonka experts. The 1000 number is thrown out to make people feel better about not boating fish on multiple trips in a row. |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Actually guest, the 1000 is a bit low it's probably around the 1500 maybe a bit more with all the yearlings that MI has stocked over the past 8+ years. If you look at the stockings and assume that there is little natural reproduction that's pretty close to the number you end up with.
Stocked fingerlings = roughly 10% survival
Stocked yearlings - roughly 35% survival
Now add in natural and delayed mortality and you're getting to that 1200-1500 fish range of adults. Of these you can figure in a mature system without an oily forage fish that 5-8% are 50"+. This is the reason why CPR is so important and why since it was adopted our lakes have flourished.
Edited by Muskie Treats 11/22/2012 8:20 AM
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Ben Olsen - 11/21/2012 2:47 PM
I've always wondered about that "1000" muskies in Tonka! I've heard it several times also. My observations (not scientific) lead me to believe there are WAY more than 1000 muskies in Tonka. My boat has caught 10% of the available fish per year multiple times in the last five seasons??? I'm not even close to that good!! Plus the 100s of follows. I'd bet there are close to 1000 muskies caught per year out there. 100 boats...10 fish per boat...doesn't seem that far off to me! My numbers were slightly lower the last two seasons but that's due to less TOW and not fishing due to high temps. Still managed 30+ and 5 over 50 this year despite June and July off due to my wedding and high temps. IMHO still a very healthy population and good density in Tonka.
Common sense Has spoken......
There are about 20 some guides on Vermilion. and some of these guys and their clients put over a thousand fish in the net a yr. I know a couple of guys that put a couple hundred in the boat a year.
Resorts like VDL,Spring Bay,Whispering Winds,Retreat Lodge,.... Puts hundreds of muskies in the boat .. the list could go on and on.
I've seen some , 1 acre spots and weed beds that had 7-8 fish on them, multiple times.
Think about what Beno said,...... true that. |
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Posts: 719
| a few observations:
Ten years ago DNR estimates for Tonka were around 1100 adult fish...36" and above. About one in 13 acres.
Before the spearing Bone and Deer in Wisc were reported by the DNR to have the highest density of legals (then 32" ? ) at about I fish per acre. This was touted as the highest density of "keepers" in the state my a fair margin.
I would say Shawn has a pretty good idea on current numbers for Tonka with his close connections at the DNR. That puts the Tonka population at about 1 fish per ten acres and most people consider Tonka to be pretty well populated.
The big variable is at what size you base the estimates, if you start at 24-30" you will get a very different number than starting at 40".
I think the biggest message here is how much the fish are recycled on highly pressured lakes. As Ben noted...there are many years where 3-4 guys that I know put around 100 fish in the boat on Tonka...somewhere around 30-40% of the estimated population...add in the guys putting in 30-50...easily another ten to fifteen and you have caught more than the estimated population before you even consider the occasional anglers. And that is just guys I knew personally. It wouldn't surprise me if the population numbers of adult fish in that lake was caught at least twice in an average year.
Edited by bturg 11/23/2012 12:43 PM
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| bturg - 11/23/2012 12:40 PM
a few observations:
Ten years ago DNR estimates for Tonka were around 1100 adult fish...36" and above. About one in 13 acres.
Before the spearing Bone and Deer in Wisc were reported by the DNR to have the highest density of legals (then 32" ? ) at about I fish per acre. This was touted as the highest density of "keepers" in the state my a fair margin.
I would say Shawn has a pretty good idea on current numbers for Tonka with his close connections at the DNR. That puts the Tonka population at about 1 fish per ten acres and most people consider Tonka to be pretty well populated.
The big variable is at what size you base the estimates, if you start at 24-30" you will get a very different number than starting at 40".
I think the biggest message here is how much the fish are recycled on highly pressured lakes. As Ben noted...there are many years where 3-4 guys that I know put around 100 fish in the boat on Tonka...somewhere around 30-40% of the estimated population...add in the guys putting in 30-50...easily another ten to fifteen and you have caught more than the estimated population before you even consider the occasional anglers. And that is just guys I knew personally. It wouldn't surprise me if the population numbers of adult fish in that lake was caught at least twice in an average year.
Catch and release works. Another thing to consider is if there are 1,500 adult muskies in a body of water, they're not going to be spread out evenly - they're going to congregate in the areas where they can feed. We have lakes like that where I fish - they are small low density fisheries, but because of the relative lack of structure, the fish are all piled up in the same areas most of the year. Find those areas and fish them effectively, and it really doesn't matter of there are .25 fish per acre of water, or 1 fish per acre.
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Muskie per acre