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| I was out on a lake close to home last weekend where trolling is prohibited and noticed
a group of 4 guys come trolling up the shoreline. At first I thought they had planer boards out but then I noticed they all had big bobbers out. Nobody was casting and they were all sitting down just cruising up current into the wind around the entire shoreline and back down the other side of the lake. I was completely amazed.
Now don't get me wrong, I drag suckers while drifting with the trolling motor down but I am trying to keep my boat along the weed edge. If I ever need to head to another spot more than 150 yards away I bring everything in and use the big motor to setup the next drift. I always drift in the direction the current or wind is taking me. More than half the time I am usually trying to hold myself on the spot with my trolling motor.
The next day I ended up hooking into a nice muskie and losing it after about a minute so about 10 minutes later I see this guy come cruising up to me and he has a huge bobber hanging off the back. He trolled up and down the bank next to me. After about 10 minutes I notice him just take off across the bay I was in and head off towards the other side of the lake. He wasn't even making an attempt to position fish!
Now I didn't call either of these guys in as I'm not even sure what I am doing is legal but these guys are blatantly trolling if I ever saw it. I've never seen these two boats on the lake before but all of a sudden last weekend people are out musky fishing this lake hard while trolling suckers around like it's perfectly legal.
I'm always a bit concerned while dragging suckers but now I don't know what to think.
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Location: Contrarian Island | yup, that is trolling....if / when a warden see's them they will be getting a fine... i fish a cisco based lake in vilas in nov and there are always these dudes from IL w at least 3 bobbers out the back trolling them around.... not even casting... they'll get a fine at some point |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | So you are upset that someone is breaking the same law you are? |
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Location: Contrarian Island | PP, you might want to read what he is doing and what the other guys were doing...not the "same" thing.... |
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| PP struggles with reading comprehension.
GL |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | BNelson - 11/1/2012 12:42 PM
PP, you might want to read what he is doing and what the other guys were doing...not the "same" thing....
Thanks Captain. That was hard to grasp.
He states he isn't even sure what he is doing is legal. If you aren't sure, you likely aren't doing it right. I've been stopped for simply turning the boat. Once I was under power the warden considered me trolling. So moving less than 150 yards would still be considered trolling. Breaking the law is breaking the law. Are these guys blatantly breaking it? No doubt. But hard to point fingers when you're breaking the law. If the poster knew he wasn't breaking the law he could have called a warden. He did not. Why? He stated exactly why, fear he was breaking the law also. |
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Location: The desert | Guest - 11/1/2012 12:48 PM
PP struggles with reading comprehension.
"Now I didn't call either of these guys in as I'm not even sure what I am doing is legal"
Who has trouble? |
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Posts: 1220
| For those of us in the Southern climes here around Milwaukee, Waukesha and Madison, it is just totally second nature to drag these things around all through the fall with the bow mount on "constant." Naturally, trolling is allowed. My habit is to have one hanging straight down deep off the back (the way the "kinda-sorta-legal guys up North do it,) and one way back from the boat on a bobber quite shallow. And, because it's not an issue, I never even looked at like it was trolling. Anyway, to make a long story short (yea, tool late for that) I was up North prefishing a late fall event a few weeks ago and decided to let a few suckers help me out since the water was cold enough. I was casting away happily, cruising down the shore with complete abandon, when a fellow competitor shouted out, "Hey Junkman, I didn't know you were #*^@ violator.!" Well, you could have blown me away with a feather when I was given the "Free" reminder to clean up my act. So, my point is...maybe these guys were innocent of knowingly violating the rules...I was...and a little kind word of warning might have made them quickly change their ways since everybody knows you never see a warden when it's cold out! |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Actually, Pointer is right, the original poster IS breaking the law if he goes visibly out of a drift or controlled spot hold at ALL under power dragging a sucker. Controlling a drift, no problems.
People are breaking this law by the numbers everywhere I fish this Fall. The DNR could solve two months of budget shortfall if they had enough wardens.
I won't even fish suckers anymore out of anything but our row troller.
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Posts: 1141
Location: NorthCentral WI | From the WI DNR Regs:
Motor Trolling
“Motor trolling” is trailing a lure, bait, or similar device used to attract or catch fish
from a boat while being propelled (forwards or backwards) by a motor or a sail or while being towed by a boat being propelled by a motor or sail. Motor trolling is illegal except in some counties and waters as listed in the section titled Special Regulations—Listed by County, beginning on page 23. Motor trolling is allowed for certain disabled anglers and their able-bodied assistant(s) who have applied for and received special permits with trolling privileges. Casting and immediate retrieval of a bait or lure while being propelled (forwards or backwards) by a motor or a sail or while being towed by a boat being propelled by a motor or sail is not motor trolling. NOTE: Trailing a bait or lure from a boat that is being propelled by motor or sail at the same time casting and immediately retrieving another bait or lure is considered motor trolling and is not allowed.
Probably not likely but it is possible that one or more of the anglers was disabled and had received a "special permit" that would allow trolling.  Doubt it though.
Edited by MartinTD 11/1/2012 2:37 PM
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | sworrall - 11/1/2012 1:22 PM
Actually, Pointer is right, the original poster IS breaking the law if he goes visibly out of a drift or controlled spot hold at ALL under power (especially anything near 150 yards), dragging a sucker.
People are breaking this law by the numbers everywhere I fish this Fall. The DNR could solve two months of budget shortfall if they had enough wardens.
I won't even fish suckers anymore out of anything but our row troller.
I'm sorry could you repeat that first line for me? I struggle with reading comprehension. |
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Posts: 1516
| So, if the bait is not trailing from the boat while being propelled, it's not motor trolling? |
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Posts: 1220
| Put simply, it is my understanding that if you have a line hanging absolutely straight down from the rod tip (180 degress straight up and down AKA perpindicular to the surface of the water) and you engage your bow mount causing the angle of that line to become any sort of an angle (like the hypotenuse of a right triangle) THEN YOU ARE TROLLING! |
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Posts: 1270
| When is the DNR going to actually write this law in a black and white way? One warden says this is illegal while the other one says it's perfectly legal??? |
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Location: Eau Claire,WI | If you want the other boats to stop "trolling" then call the game warden,that easy. Let the Wardens decide if it is trolling... You could always move to a body of water that allows trolling,easy enough...A simple phone call could have saved all your heartache... |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | If you are patient and confident that you are in the "right area" you can use suckers and your trolling motor at the same time. Bobbers are a big no-no when using position fishing however. Slow going keeping a vertical line...but legal.
“Position fishing”
is fishing from a boat where the fishing line extends vertically into the water
while the boat is maneuvered (forwards or backwards) by a motor used to position or
maintain the position of the boat over underwater structure. Position fishing is allowed
statewide in all waters. |
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Posts: 134
| This has all been beat to a pulp year after year, again and again, but I will chime in with some additional food for thought. It all stems from inconistencies and "mixed" signals the laws present. As stated many times before the law is vague at best, say what you will, but as someone who deals with NR 500 regs on a daily basis, these are written with no room interpretation, the position laws-not so much, and need to clarified to this type of language. So it is OK to position fish-but what that is, is really interputated by angler/warden/ observer, or overzelous lake property owner. Yet it is legal to use 3 lines. For what?, if not trolling, or position fishing. I doubt other species camps fight amongst themselves about using crawlwer harnesses and a TM, jigging and using slip bobbers and using a TM, cuz I am sure no one here that sees this as black and white has ever done those two things in combination, which by there own definition is trolling. That is what I see as so crazy about all this is that, when fishing other species this seems to be a complete non-issue. So there are now 3 camps-the nazis who think any use of trolling motor is grounds for castration, those who truely try and position fish in the vaguness of the law, and those who will blatently troll. Until there is either legalized state wide trolling or a clear law...we can plan on this discussion next fall. |
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Location: Yahara River Chain | reelman - 11/1/2012 4:12 PM
When is the DNR going to actually write this law in a black and white way? One warden says this is illegal while the other one says it's perfectly legal???
A proposal is underway to allow motor trolling on all lakes here in Wisconsin. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | '“Motor trolling” is trailing a lure, bait, or similar device used to attract or catch fish
from a boat while being propelled (forwards or backwards) by a motor or a sail or while being towed by a boat being propelled by a motor or sail.'
That's pretty darned clear. |
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Posts: 999
| Figuree your obviously not aware that the law was rewritten this year to clear the position fishing law up. Steve re posted the new law and its pretty clear. If your pulling live bait verticle or not your trolling. |
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| Pointerpride102 - 11/1/2012 9:37 PM
Doesn't it suck when Pointer is right? Gosh I hate when that happens.
Thankfully that doesn't happen very often! Just giving you crap! |
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Location: The desert | reelman - 11/1/2012 8:50 PM
Pointerpride102 - 11/1/2012 9:37 PM
Doesn't it suck when Pointer is right? Gosh I hate when that happens.
Thankfully that doesn't happen very often! Just giving you crap!
Marty, you're allowed. You're good #*#*. |
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Posts: 4266
| If I wanted to, I could head up to Vilas County with my livewell full of the biggest suckers I can buy and take off from the launces at a couple of lakes that I love to fish, and I could set out one sucker under the boat somewhere and then set out 2 other suckers at different depths suspended under balloons and put down my foot-controlled motor and work my way all around the lakes changing batteries if I have to. If my girlfriend wants to go, we could have a 6 sucker spread. How? We are both disabled. A disabled lisence gives us the right to troll up to 3 lines apiece as long as we use the electric motor. I don't think that the DNR put much thought into the licenses for disabled people, or they never asked for our input. Trolling with an electric motor is ridiculous unless you are going to troll live bait. I'd rather motor troll than drag suckers all over the place, but as I get worse physically, I might have to resort to it. I wrote to the DNR and told them that personally I appreciated the effort that they put forward to keep me fishing, but that I thought limiting myself to trolling suckers was a bad idea. I received a nice letter in return thanking me for utilizing the system that they put in place for disabled anglers and their efforts to keep disabled people fishing, but they suggested that if I wanted to keep on fishing muskies late into the season that it appeared to be my only option. Then they suggested that I change to walleyes instead of chasing muskies, stating walleye fishing was far easier anyway. So if you see a Tuffy with 2 people in it dragging 4-6 balloons behind it, ask me if I have a disabled license before you call the warden. |
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| figuree - 11/1/2012 6:14 PM
So there are now 3 camps-the nazis who think any use of trolling motor is grounds for castration, those who truely try and position fish in the vaguness of the law, and those who will blatently troll. Until there is either legalized state wide trolling
That pretty much sums it up. I guess the whole point of my thread was I myself believe to be position fishing or at least #*^@ well trying to be, and the others are blatantly trolling, yet I'm scared the Nazis are going to call me in and yet I don't really want to get involved in calling anyone else in because the whole point of me going fishing this late in the fall is to avoid the crowds and the drama. I'd hate to call in someone who happens to be handicap(Possibly a Vet) also. It's just so confusing.
I thought dragging a sucker behind the boat in the fall was a traditional Wisconsin staple for musky fisherman.
The whole thing stinks yet I know by me spending $125 dollars a month on suckers has to be helping someone out. Let's allow trolling statewide. Maybe lakes under 1000 acres can only the use a trolling motor to troll?
Somethings got to give.
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| I know, why don't the people in Northern Wis. get together and push to allow trolling just like 49.5 of the other states. No motor trolling is an absolute joke and has not destroyed the fishing everywhere else in the US |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If you obviously are towing around suckers while casting and NOT drifting at the speed of the wind and pulling the suckers around you are violating the law. Position fishing allows for minor adjustments, not dragging a sucker for 25'.
Keep adjustments to a minimum, do not drag the sucker against the wind or for that matter, at all, and you are fine.
Better yet, row troll.
Wisconsin fish and game regs are rife with 'tradition', because we as Wisco residents are allowed to vote on every proposed change. Most changes that are considered by the attendees at the CC hearings each Spring as against 'tradition' are rejected on social basis, not necessarily good management practices. The impact of the vote was recently reduced some, but we still have a voice in what regs are put in place here. Statewide trolling has been voted down a number of times.
Not on MY lake, you don't!!!  |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | By tradition we cannot motor troll on several lakes in WI. Isn't it also tradition to pull suckers around with your bow mount late in the fall? Which tradition will win?
I agree that position fishing to me seems like fishing vertically while moving the boat as little as possible, not slowly moving down structure against the wind.
With that said, I've drug suckers around on non motor trolling lakes but move slowly in an attempt to keep the lines straight down and not "troll" the suckers. I guess I'm a rebel.
Tucker |
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Posts: 1270
| So if the key thing is that the lines need to be vertical can I put suckers on my downriggers and troll all around the lake? Not that I would but it would be an interesting question to ask. Like I said before the DNR really needs to clarify this law. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Geeez.
'“Motor trolling” is trailing a lure, bait, or similar device used to attract or catch fish
from a boat while being propelled (forwards or backwards) by a motor or a sail or while being towed by a boat being propelled by a motor or sail.'
So the law for trolling is clear, and no, you can't rip around using a downrigger...obviously.
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | Tradition was to row along shorelines with suckers. People started using their trolling motors to troll (relatively) recently.
Some traditions die off quickly (rowing). Others, like the use of single hook rigs take longer. It's happening, but slowly.
When I was at the Price County CC meetings a short while back, a few very vocal "locals" (property owners from out of state) thought the tradition of not allowing motor was stupid but when the single hook rigs and 40" size limits came up they cried "using single hooks and keeping muskies to eat is a tradition to us".
There's no science to support the theory that allowing trolling will adversely affect the fishery, just like there's no science to support the theory that using live bait (with quick sets) or multiple lines will adversely affect the fishery.
It is what it is. If you want to use 2 lines, fish in Wisconsin. If you want to troll, fish in one of the many counties where its legal, cause if you don't follow the regs in the county your fishing you better believe someone who disagrees with what you're doing and has the law on his or her side will report you.
Edited by Flambeauski 11/2/2012 11:02 AM
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Location: Hayward, WI | I'm not trying to be arguementative, but as I re-read the law, I'm still not sure of how clear it is.
'“Motor trolling” is trailing a lure, bait, or similar device used to attract or catch fish
from a boat while being propelled (forwards or backwards) by a motor or a sail or while being towed by a boat being propelled by a motor or sail.'
To me "trailing" would mean the bait is behind the boat being pulled. Something directly below me is not trailing in my mind. In my opinion, this law says running suckers is fine as long as they stay vertical rather than "trailing" behind the boat.
Tucker |
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Posts: 20219
Location: oswego, il | The law is still stupid. I can trail a sucker with a 1oz weight and be illegal or use a 4lb cannonball and be legal. A vilas warden told me if you have a sucker in the water and your trolling motor is on for any reason or amount of time you are in violation. In kenosha county running the trolling motor is mot an issue with suckers. From an economic standpoint the law the law is rediculous as well. tourists can fish elsewhere with suckers without worry. |
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| sworral, you can keep posting the same thing but it's still not clear. If I'm hanging a sucker off the front of my boat and the line is held vertical with a 3oz lead weight while I'm moving up a shoreline very slowly, the bait is clearly not being trailed and therefore not illegal.
Personally, I avoid the whole mess by going to a county that allows motor trolling. I don't think the northerners know how much money they are losing from this silly law that..... prevents what exactly? |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | More muskie guys out on the Vilas/Oneida/Iron county lakes this time of year than Washburn/Bayfield/Price/Clear Sawyer lakes this time of year in my experience. Maybe the fishing is just better in the non-trolling counties? Maybe trolling is the reason? Maybe guys just don't mind violating that particular law? |
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Location: Racine, Wi | Have fun debating, I'm going trolling. I love SE Wisco. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | tuffy1 - 11/2/2012 3:12 PM
Have fun debating, I'm going trolling. I love SE Wisco.
It's a sportsman's paradise! |
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| I guess I'm still going to do it and if I get popped I'll drag the whole thing out in court as long as I possibly can costing the taxpayers a fortune. At least I'm making a serious attempt at position fishing. Wisconsin needs to allow trolling. This whole thing is ridiculous.
I guess I'll just live and let live. Have a safe weekend everybody.
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| The way the law is written it is still open to personal interpretation. Do what YOU want (not necessarily what you think is right, by the law) but consider how you might defend yourself against a warden or in court. If you think someone else is violating, either call them in or look the other way and don't worry about it. Again, your choice. |
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Location: Kronenwetter, WI | All good on the river too! |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'sworral, you can keep posting the same thing but it's still not clear.'
I posted the law. Some of you are trying to combine it with ANOTHER regulation on what defines position fishing. One thing is crystal clear, if you are pulling your boat forward faster than you can drift or in another direction of what the drift should be and a sucker is trailing over the side...weighted or not...you are violating the trolling regulation. AND...you are NOT position fishing.
You can try to make it hard to 'get' all you want. If you are moving faster than a drift would allow or in a different direction, and that don't take rocket science to see even from a distance, you are trolling whether moving forward or backward.
A controlled drift/position fishing is not propelling a boat forward or backward. Don't confuse the description of a controlled drift with that of trolling, they are, OBVIOUSLY, polar opposites and the Wardens know the difference. Pull suckers along with the boat under power and you are breaking the law unless row trolling.
And there it is. No grey area, simple and straight forward. What I see here is folks who WANT to troll by the definition in the regulations, is an attempt to use the position fishing regulation to get away with breaking the law by adding weight to keep the line vertical. What will happen if you do...a ticket...you are trolling.
To the statement that the N WI folks don't know how much money they are losing; if you say so....many of us, including me voted to allow trolling but not because we feel it will increase tourism much, just because we feel the law is outdated and based on not much of anything but emotion.
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| If you're casting and the sucker is vertical, you're good to go. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Wow. Not if you are propelling the boat forward or backward with your electric motor. That's why the law was rewritten recently. Go ahead and troll, and if you get a ticket, you will lose trying to convince anyone the law is unclear.
I rarely see anyone on the water fishing suckers legally. Maybe if the wardens were numerous enough, the revenue stream from tickets would help the economy...:)
Question: Were you pulling your boat down the structure or shoreline forward or backward with your electric?
Answer: Yes, but...(add whatever jibberish you want here)
Decision: You were trolling by the definition in the law. |
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| Granted, whether I undertand the intent of or agree with a law makes little difference. It is what it is. Never the less, I have never understood why WDNR feels it's a good thing to not allow motor trolling of Suckers. Artificial lures...OK. But Suckers? My opinion doesn't mean squat, but I it's a moronic law. |
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Posts: 566
Location: Elgin, IL | I love these discussions. I have been fishing The Northwoods of Wisconsin for awhile....and I really like it. Especially in the Fall, and late Fall.
I don't agree with everything that the State says we have to do, but I dang well abide by it...as well as I can. So, regarding this sucker fishing issue, I have to admit that at times, I may have come really close to crossing that fine line.
And I think ALOT of you have too....I would say probably about 85% of you. Yep, you know the difference between trolling and position fishing......so why come on here and pretend you don't? You really know the difference. Period. Don't you.?
If you don't, then you fall into the other 15% who really don't know what end of the sucker has the rubber band in it or not anyway. That 15% is out there no matter what we do here.
Be smart folks...it's very clear what they want us to do with this issue, just do it.
I really like this row-trolling idea anyway.
Edited by Northwind Mark 11/2/2012 8:40 PM
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| This whole debate reminds me of a time my wife and I were fishing...and she didn't have a license. (Technically she wasn't fishing, just trying out a reel...but, still making casts from the boat!) Just happens that day that a Warden spotted her, and we got a ticket for fishing without a license! Now, we could have gone to court and tried some lame defense like, "But she wasn't really fishing. She was just casting lures in the water." But being as we were guilty of "fishing" by definition---we didn't bother making that defense. Trolling is trolling and is the same type of thing. The law is only black and white, no gray areas. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Guest - 11/2/2012 8:37 PM
Granted, whether I undertand the intent of or agree with a law makes little difference. It is what it is. Never the less, I have never understood why WDNR feels it's a good thing to not allow motor trolling of Suckers. Artificial lures...OK. But Suckers? My opinion doesn't mean squat, but I it's a moronic law.
It would amount to pandering to a special interest to allow trolling just for us and just for suckers, but not the walleye guys or guys who fish cranks or...
Lots of folks don't want trolling on the little lakes up here, especially with 3 lines each angler. It wasn't pretty during the backtrolling era. I'd even settle for one line each angler if trolling for the highway 64 North zone. |
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| It's weird that the wardens don't issue tickets for hanging a sucker over the side when you're casting, even if the trolling motor is set on a constant speed. I've had my license checked twice when doing this. Oddly enough, no ticket or warning about trolling! What gives? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What part of MN are you from, and where were you checked? |
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Location: Hayward, WI | trail (trl)
v. trailed, trail·ing, trails
v.tr.
1. To allow to drag or stream behind, as along the ground: The dog ran off, trailing its leash.
Seems to me the key word here is trailing, and the definition of trailing seems to use the word behind. I would not call something directly below me trailing. It doesn't seem right to use a 3 lb downrigger ball and move your sucker along at 3 mph... but with the way the law is written?
Like every year, everyone will have their own beliefs on this and most (yep, myself included) are going to be hard to convince otherwise. These never go anywhere really but we like to talk about it each year. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Go ahead and argue that the sucker wasn't 'trailed' while propelling the boat forward...it was, directly under your 'weight'.
Ticket, and I'd call your butt in, too.
Semantics will not draw you an excuse to disobey the law.
I bet if you were discussing ways to get around the law fishing in MN with two lines the MN public would rise up and smite you.
Why would anyone think it's OK to skirt or ignore the fishing regulations here or anywhere?
The law reads as it does and it isn't open to 'beliefs' designed to ignore the regulation.
You are breaking the law if you tow suckers around the lake up here.
Even if it is a dumb law. Which I think it is. |
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| Any idea what the fine is or trolling suckers? |
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| Well, that seems to be a mystery to most people, due to the fact that while many people do troll Suckers legal or not, it seems to go largely unenforced.
Somewhat like how few people know (experientially) what the fine for speeding between 55-65 is because you rarely actually get pulled over until you drive over 65----even though 56 is breaking the law on some roads. Maybe that's the same reason why people keep trolling....no real fear of consequences?
But I'm with you, if I'm going to roll the dice I'd kind of like to know what the penalty actually is. I mean for me, it's not so much of a moral thing as it is the potential financial consequences as to whether to obey the law or not. There's always the risk of learning that answer the unpleasant way.
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Posts: 134
| I have an Esox Magnum boat with oarlocks and oars for moving suckers. I checked with the DNR station in Rhinelander before sucker season started for me. He said, quote "it is illegal to drag suckers around using your trolling motor and casting". Now do what you want, but you better have a lawyers' business card in your wallet if a warden decides to bust you. By the way, rowing my size boat is pretty easy and relaxing. Alot of muskie fisherman have pasted me and asked why I'm rowing and not using my trolling motor. When I tell them it is not legal they don't believe me. To each his own, but Steve W. is absolutely right!!!!!!!!!! |
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Location: Wakefield, MI | dh buc - 11/4/2012 1:50 PM I have an Esox Magnum boat with oarlocks and oars for moving suckers. I checked with the DNR station in Rhinelander before sucker season started for me. He said, quote "it is illegal to drag suckers around using your trolling motor and casting". Now do what you want, but you better have a lawyers' business card in your wallet if a warden decides to bust you. By the way, rowing my size boat is pretty easy and relaxing. Alot of muskie fisherman have pasted me and asked why I'm rowing and not using my trolling motor. When I tell them it is not legal they don't believe me. To each his own, but Steve W. is absolutely right!!!!!!!!!! I was thinking of doing that with my boat, 14' aluminum rows very nicely. But for now, I'll just stick to Michigan with my dads boat. |
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Location: oswego, il | I know alot of people who went up north this fall, fished suckers and talked to them all. Every one of them were trolling. Many of them did not know dragging a sucker while propelling the boat with a trolling motor was trolling. One person told me they were advancing their position which is not trolling. I think alot of people dont realize they are breaking the law.
Edited by ToddM 11/4/2012 3:44 PM
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Location: The desert | Is it called a trolling motor or an advancing position motor? |
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Location: searchin for 50 | Amen,Steve it is a dumb law and needs to be rewritten. |
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Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | On the lake our cabin is on, saw a guy last time I was there, casting and moving along with 2 suckers out. He had painted his bobbers black so you couldn't see them. |
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Posts: 400
Location: North/Central WI | Stealth bobbers... |
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| So I see nothing in the rule about reels being held or in the act of reeling.
All this talk of 'trailing' and 'advancement' makes me question; If your trolling motor is on and moving the boat at any time aren't you trolling? Unless you are always casting at a 45 forward and the bait is out of the water before trailing you, you are trolling, right? I doubt anyone can argue a boat on constant forward is not imparting some propulsion to your bait.
Not trying to be a smartass, but if you insist on reading the law to the letter, without any subjective thought, it may not be all that clear. One could argue the 'Im clearly casting' is the same thought pattern as 'It's clearly vertical and not trailing'. |
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| To follow the letter of the law, you should stop your trolling motor before casting, and only start it again after you've completed your retrieve. This is the letter of the law!!
For those of you who think it's OK to cast while the trolling motor is propelling the boat, could we avoid "trolling" by jigging the sucker? What if we employ a repeating cycle of very slowly retrieving it and letting line back out?
Should we all keep our trolling motors stowed while fishing in WI? As PointerPride told us, they're called TROLLING motors after all. What else could they possibly be for? |
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| No point anymore.
Edited by Anonymous 11/5/2012 2:31 PM
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Posts: 580
| Yep, this discussion comes up every fall. Fun stuff.
I know that Steve thinks the difference between position fishing and trolling totally clear and there is no gray area whatsoever...but that's really not the case. Both position fishing and trolling definitions allow use of a motor, and both allow forward or backward movement with the motor. The major difference in the definitions is what your line is doing. Is it trailing the boat (trolling) or is it vertical (position fishing)?
This is consistent with what I understand the WDNR has previously gone on record with as their policy for enforcement, which is floating around the internet, and which is quoted below. Note that the warden himself acknowledges forward movement with the trolling motor is acceptable while "position fishing. (Emphasis added by myself):
>>>The following is our current policy and guidance relative to the issue of position fishing and trolling.
Position fishing is allowed statewide and is defined as fishing from a boat where the fishing line extends vertically into the water while the boat is maneuvered (forwards or backwards) by a motor used to position the boat over underwater structures.
Motor trolling is illegal statewide except in some counties and waters as specified in the County and statewide tables under s. NR 20.20, Wis. Adm. Code, and listed in the Special Regulations Listings by County in the Fishing Regulation pamphlet.
DNR Law Enforcement policy is that some movement under power while position fishing will be acceptable and occasional deviation from vertical lines is expected. How much movement is some? Movement for up to several minutes may occasionally be necessary to reposition a fishing boat. Trailing a sucker or minnow behind a boat while casting an artificial lure with the use of a motor would not be authorized. Wardens should consider the totality of the circumstance in determining whether a violation has been committed.
Acceptable practices: Examples of fishing techniques that would qualify under the spirit of the position fishing rule:
- Using your motor to move around a structure, weed edges, rock bars, drop offs, while vertically jigging.
- Using your motor to slowly move around structure fishing with a bottom bouncer fished in a vertical or near vertical presentation.
- Operating your motor to maintain position.
Unacceptable and illegal practices: Examples of fishing techniques that would not qualify as position fishing are:
- Use of downriggers or planer boards to trail live baits or artificial lures while operating electric or outboard motors.
- Trailing lines with live bait or artificial lures while engaged in casting and immediate retrieval of a different bait, lure or similar device while the motor is running.
Randy J. Stark
Chief Warden
Bureau of Law Enforcement
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
phone: (608) 266-1115
fax: (608) 266-3696
e-mail: [email protected] I'm not vouching for the veracity of the quoted text. It's just what I've found--but it does make a whole lot of sense given the way the definitions are written. But based on the above interpretation, clearly you are allowed to use your trolling motor and slowly move around structure while fishing a line vertically, e.g., hanging a sucker over the side of the boat.
Edit to add: Based on what the original poster said he was doing, I'd say that he was legal within the interpretation quoted above.
Edited by Matt DeVos 11/5/2012 4:43 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'DNR Law Enforcement policy is that some movement under power while position fishing will be acceptable and occasional deviation from vertical lines is expected. How much movement is some? Movement for up to several minutes may occasionally be necessary to reposition a fishing boat. Trailing a sucker or minnow behind a boat while casting an artificial lure with the use of a motor would not be authorized. Wardens should consider the totality of the circumstance in determining whether a violation has been committed.'
Yep. That's the law and has been. Pulling your suckers along behind the boat/along side in the case of the rods in a rod holder over the side while casting and moving down the structure is not position fishing. That's moving down an edge or shoreline where the sucker is moving along at a speed (and distance) that's obviously not position fishing, which is what every single boat I have seen fishing suckers this Fall is doing. Drifting at the speed of the wind and adjusting very slowly to stay on a contour line is different entirely, that's legal and is under the position fishing definition. Slowly fishing around a structure is also OK, obviously, that's why the position fishing reg was drafted...mostly for vertical jigging for walleyes.
THIS is legal: ' Using your motor to move around a structure, weed edges, rock bars, drop offs, while vertically jigging. Using your motor to slowly move around structure fishing with a bottom bouncer fished in a vertical or near vertical presentation- Operating your motor to maintain position.'
Notice the lack of an additional rod trailing along behind the boat verbiage?
Key to this is the paragraph describing what 'most of us' (whomever THAT is, Guest) actually do when sucker fishing while casting:
THIS is illegal--'Trailing lines with live bait or artificial lures while engaged in casting and immediate retrieval of a different bait, lure or similar device while the motor is running.'
I notice you didn't highlight this:
'Trailing a sucker or minnow behind a boat while casting an artificial lure with the use of a motor would not be authorized.'
Says it's illegal clear as a bell, so how does one arrive at this:
'But based on the above interpretation, clearly you are allowed to use your trolling motor and slowly move around structure while fishing a line vertically, e.g., hanging a sucker over the side of the boat. '
Unless one is using a bottom bouncer or jigging the sucker, and NOT casting another lure or device and immediately retrieving while the motor is running...are you? There's your sign.
Note the 'trailing lines' part. Note the reference to 'bottom bouncers and vertical jigging' in the position fishing reg.
That's what I see is so clear, if you are obviously moving along structure under power casting and your sucker rod line isn't pretty consistently vertical (and it won't be if you are using your trolling motor to move along, and you are not holding the rod), and you are doing this:---'Trailing lines with live bait or artificial lures while engaged in casting and immediate retrieval of a different bait, lure or similar device while the motor is running.'--
You are trolling and that is what Muskie anglers fishing with Suckers DO, almost all the time. The main argument I have seen here mostly an attempt to subvert the law using weights to hold the line vertical, and/or comments from those who choose to ignore or continue to 'misinterpret' the regs. As I said...come on, you know if you are trolling or not.
The warden won't watch your line, he will watch where your casts are landing and by that, even at quite a distance, can tell how fast you are advancing.
Just trying to help keep anyone from getting up to a $350 plus ticket bending the regs to cover more water; but if you want to bend or break the law, heck, knock yourself out. People pass me all the time doing 80 mph on the 4 lanes, too.
Bad law, and it needs to go, trolling up here should be legal. Not everyone living in the north woods agrees with me on that one. |
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Posts: 1455
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | DeVos--thanks for that. Printing and keeping in my glove box. That's about how I understood it. |
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| Thanks, Devos. That's the way most of us understand it. |
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| Not trying to play devils advocate again, however a lengthy letter from a DNR warden, and a son that works for the DNR, clarifying the rule and describing in detail what would or wouldn't constitute a ticket pays no credence to the claims that the rule as is reads straightforward. Quite the opposite in fact. |
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Posts: 580
| sworrall - 11/5/2012 5:02 PM
I notice you didn't highlight this:
'Trailing a sucker or minnow behind a boat while casting an artificial lure with the use of a motor would not be authorized.'
Says it's illegal clear as a bell, so how does one arrive at this:
'But based on the above interpretation, clearly you are allowed to use your trolling motor and slowly move around structure while fishing a line vertically, e.g., hanging a sucker over the side of the boat. '
Steve, I agree that if someone is using their trolling motor to work down a weedline and has suckers hanging off the side of the boat, and has the trolling motor on constant, a warden is probably going to call that trolling. This is because the constant movement of the boat won't allow the sucker line(s) off the side of the boat to be vertical or near vertical to the water. The suckers will be trailing the majority of the time.
If that is what most muskie anglers are doing, I think you're right. Lots of movement and trailing lines would almost always be trolling.
On the other hand, if the trolling motor is used sparingly and/or in short bursts to slowly move along a weedline or breakline or whatever....and the suckers lines over the side stay vertical or near vertical most of the time....that's in the spirit of "position fishing" according to the quoted text above and its perfectly legal.
Again, the difference is whether the boat is moving too much and therefore causing the lines to trail the boat....versus if the boat is moving minimally or slow enough such that the lines stay vertical or near vertical to the water. To put it more simply, the way I understand it is this: Too much forward (or backward) movement + trailing lines = trolling (illegal). Short bursts of movement or very slow movement + vertical lines = position fishing (legal).
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I know what you are saying, and don't completely disagree with you, it's reality that gets in the way.
Watch the progress of any average muskie boat in N WI as the rig moves along while 'Trailing lines with live bait or artificial lures while engaged in casting and immediate retrieval of a different bait, lure or similar device while the motor is running.' while they would profess to be - Using your motor to move around a structure, weed edges, rock bars, drop offs, while vertically jigging.'
Where the warden has the decision to make is simply....are you:'Trailing lines with live bait or artificial lures while engaged in casting and immediate retrieval of a different bait, lure or similar device while the motor is running.'
If you are visibly moving forward at the speed I see the average guy pulling suckers around in Oneida County, it could be ticket time. We have VERY few wardens because of budget crushing, so most folks know the chances of a ticket are small.
I have yet to see a boat fishing suckers while casting this year that doesn't cover a couple hundred yards in a short time, and that even against the wind. If you hit the electric while casting and move your boat forward 10', then cast again, then hit the motor again, you are going to do what I just described. If you are position fishing or using a controlled drift, the wind is your best friend. Most can stay legal n a windy day, but I'm always amazed at the number who do not.
If I fish suckers where or when I can't use the wind to move, I pick a spot on the spot and stay there. Movement is to correct my position, I ain't going no where. I could be using a bottom bouncer or be vertical jigging.
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Posts: 1036
| I don't have a dog in this fight, as I primarily fish SE Wisconsin. But I do head north to our cabin and I've been known to position fish suckers in the fall.
I think that there is no motor trolling up in Vilas because of how crowded a small lake can get with trollers on it. You take a 400 acre lake and put four trollers on it and there is very little room left for pleasure boaters, jet skiers, pontoon boaters...etc. And when it was open to backtroll, that was in place to help walleye fisherman back into a spot in the wind and hold their position. Musky guys, some famously known, exploited this for muskies and again, lakes backed up with traffic. And huge fish were caught. Easily.
All of this freaks the DNR out. So, the law is what it is. IMO.
Last time I was north, I talked to a DNR warden at the launch. He told me that he wouldn't ticket anyone for trolling with suckers if the line was vertical to the water, or close to it. To him, that was position fishing. And he did tell me of other wardens he knew who would ticket you for touching the trolling motor if you had a sucker hanging off of the boat.
So to me, it seems like a grey area and is defined by the field warden. For me, when I sucker fish up north, I already have it in my head that I am ready to pay the fine. Thankfully it hasn't come down to that because I find it more enjoyable to fish SE Wisconsin where i have no such worries. |
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| I am guilty as charged ready to pay my fine along with 80% of the musky fisherman in vilas county. |
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People trolling suckers behind the boat