|
|
Posts: 572
Location: Maplewood, MN | I've come to the realization that I am not a very good deep water angler. What are your secrets? Tactics? Presentations? I do not own many dawgs because I have yet to move a fish on one. Maybe I just need to give them more time? I have been counting them down but no such luck. When I have moved fish in deeper water, its only come on cranks. When fishing that 15-25ft water column, do you only target the top 5ft or so? Or do you really get down and hit the floor of the lake? Any advice helps on lures, presentation, and tactics. | |
| | |
Posts: 618
Location: Michigan | Even though you haven't had any follows on them yet, I would definitely use Dawgs/SuperDs/Hardheads. They are a perfect tool for that deep water fishing. I sometimes let the bait fall to the bottom, sometimes let it sink just a couple seconds, and sometimes start retrieving right away. Basically you have to let the fish tell you how active they are. I fish a really clear lake with weeds in the 18' range and a good rule of thumb is this: the sunnier it is, the deeper I let the bait sink. Ripping the bait out/through the deep weeds is a great way to trigger deep fish. When fishing open water I would look at the baitfish and try to get your bait just above them. | |
| | |
Posts: 1168
| A response from Ciscokid coming in 3....2....1....
I love fishing this stuff, probably not as much as Ciscokid but then who does love it as much as he does?
The biggest thing you need is confidence in the fact that there are fish "out there." You have to make up your mind that you are going to stick to it. So many guys have the best intentions to fish suspendos but they get discouraged after a short time and lose confidence in areas like that so they head into fish structure that is more comfortable. If you are one of those guys that will get antsy and give up on it soon after you try it, hey, go right ahead and leave me alone out over the depths. hehehehe.
Guys will also fish too deep as they get into that mindset that if you are over 80 plus feet of water that the fish must be real deep in the water column and this is nonsense. Regardless of conditions I don't think I've fished much deeper than 10 to 12 feet. Largest fish I will probably see in my life was on a gin clear lake, over 90 feet of water, not a cloud in the sky and it was calm. Twitching a glide bait maybe two feet below the surface and this fish shows itself. Remember, it takes a muskie nothing to twitch it's tail and move from one end of the boat to the other. Now take a 20 foot boat and shove it bow first down into the water. If that fish is 20 feet down it will take nothing for it to come up closer to the surface to check out a bait.
Baits? Don't limit yourself. You can burn bucktails in the top two feet over 50 plus feet of water and have fish come up and whack them. You can jig Bondy's 10 feet down over 50 plus feet and catch fish. What do you like to use? What are you confidence baits? Go ahead and use them.
One thing that can help sustain your confidence is to fish deep structure in a way you would a shallow piece of structure. Imagine an open basin that gets down to 70 feet. In that basin you have a series of humps that come up to 60 feet. Fish around those humps or points or simply bounce from one to the next and "connect the dots" using the deep structure as your dots. I think it was in one of Tony Rizzo's books where he talked about how a muskie can be over 100 feet of water but still be able to detect a change in the bottom that rises up less than half a foot. So why wouldn't it notice a 10 feet high hump coming out of 70 feet of water? They might not be holding tight to it but that doesn't mean that they don't use it eventhough they might be 50 or 60 feet above it.
| |
| | |
Posts: 719
| Get used to spending an entire day just sitting behind the seat and graphing the deeper parts of the lake, from humps, to the different drops and such. Those big arches are either sturgeon or muskie! There are plenty of deep water musky that are often overlooked as guys park their boat over top of and cast shallower... | |
| | |
| Trolling big lip crankbaits. The biggest fish we have caught have came when trolling in 20' to 40' of water. I am always amazed at how many big girls hang out in deep water. Always put a deep diver in the prop wash! | |
| | |
Posts: 433
Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | I'm mostly a troller in WI and Ontario, so my observations are based on that. I find water 30'-60' can be really good in the lakes we fish and deeper has fish too.
What are the conditions? By that I mean, is there a thermocline or not? If it's spring or fall none exist and the fish can be anywhere. Look at the locator and if you can read a thermocline or see evidence of one with fish suspending at or above it, then it can become a handy place to infer the bottom depth you want lures to run. I always look at the water clarity. How far down can you see your lure? 8' would mean the light went down 8' and back to your eyes another 8' so the minimum a fish can see over its head is 16'. If the fish is laying at the thermocline midday, a lure 16' above it is visible with no problem, not to mention they can feel the lure a lot farther away than that. So always trying to scrape the thermocline with a lure itself can be a bad idea, limiting the number of fish that can see the lure. Yeah, they can feel a lure running underneath them but why limit the number of senses you are appealing too? Depending on the mood of the fish, they may respond to lures only within inches of them, or they may attack lures run twenty feet or more above them. Usually I figure they are somewhere in between that and I start targeting depths 5'-10' above them and work both ways from there. For me, usually up higher is better.
Speed is usually as fast as I can run the lure without it blowing out or jumping out of the water. If I strike out in a good area, then I would slow down and try it again, but not before. For instance, I run bucktails at 4-5.5 mph. If my kicker could go faster I might. Believers I run about 3.5-4 mph in summer and slow down ever so slightly in fall. Other lures are just whatever speed they can handle. It's just what works for us.
If you only cast you can still take the general idea and run with it. If you make a presentation depth mistake, I always say make it on the shallow side. It's awful easy to run lures too deep, and darn hard to run them too shallow. The one big advantage a cast lure has, especially a heavy plastic, is that you can let it sink/rip it up right through the zone a fish wants to be in, a great trigger. | |
| | |
Posts: 174
Location: Ontario | Agree with most of the above.Fishing in big water means a lot of trolling and fishing points 15-40 ft of water.
I discovered a lure here called the Grandma that trolls around 12ft.Its been awesome.Rips through the water with little resistance.Catches everything too. Most of my fish caught here in the past years have been trolling cuts and channels with deeper water surrounding. The fish are sitting on the humps hunting transition fish.Caugh my biggest muskie ever(51") in 50 ft of water last October on the Grandma. A buddy of mine caught a big one a few years back down rigging in 140 ft of water with his lure down at 40 ft...so go figure whats conentional wisdom | |
| | |
Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Is the question about fishing suspended fish or fishing deep water weeds or other cover? Two completely different approaches in my opinion. | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I agree with Will. Two different cases for sure. Also are we talking 15-25’ of water, or are we talking DEEP water? Although I guess 15-25’ could be considered deep on some waters I consider that mid-depth and approaching shallow at the 15’ end.
Ulbian and a few others brought up some good points. In general, and in some cases re-emphasizing what others have said, don’t fish too deep in the water column when you are first starting out. Good rule of thumb would be to stay in the top 10’ of the water column which is where most cranks will keep you. Don’t count down your rubber baits more than say 5 seconds to stay here. In general early in the year you best stay high, say top 5’, and you progressively use deeper running lures as the year rolls on. By late Aug-early Sep. you would be running your deepest. Again in general as sometimes even in late Aug the fish will run very, very high.
The baitfish in the lake you are targeting will also dictate your bait depth, as well as if that 15-25’ depth you mentioned is flat versus a deeper break. For instance a deeper break I would keep the bait higher, and if it was a flat I would have no issues and often preferred to run a bait near the bottom.
Rubber is a no brainer for most when trying to catch fish in deep water/suspended, and thus a lot of guys getting into it use almost nothing but rubber. Although if you are on a lake that doesn’t have a strong rubber bite (yes there are some), then as you may have already found out cranks are a much better option. A HUGE thought to keep in mind is you need to make your bait get noticed in deep water. You are relying on that fish coming from a greater distance than when you are fishing structure. So with cranks make sure you give that bait a rip, rip or a pop, pop every so often. Make it kick sideways. The amount of follows you have will greatly decrease but your catches will greatly increase. I would say 80-90% of the fish we boat come right after the pop, pop of a bait. Fishing rubber give that thing a good pull/rip every so often, and also add in some just plain ‘ole drops (stop reeling). While the night fish and deep flat fish seem to prefer a steady retrieve those daytime fish in wide open spaces sure do prefer a change of pace/direction of the rubber.
It is much easier to catch fish in the upper 15’ of the water column than it is deeper than that. Thus why I and others recommend fishing it when starting out. Sometimes though you have to get a bait deeper than that, and the rewards can be great. Concentrate on being shallower in the water column until you gain confidence, and then start moving deeper in the water column. If you really, really want to learn the deep water deal you have to give it time. 1-2 hours here and there is nothing. Spend the whole day doing it. A whole weekend. The pieces will start falling in place. Who knows 5 years from now you may find it your preferred method.
| |
| | |
Posts: 572
Location: Maplewood, MN | I really appreciate all of the advice. When I originally posted, I should have specified what I mean't by deep. I call it deep because I usually target 15ft and higher. I fish 2 lakes usually; one tops out at 35ft the other at 89ft. The shallower lake is 3ft clarity and the 89 is 12ft. When fishing suspended fish, do you fish around or right through the bait fish? | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | MuskieFever - 6/11/2012 5:08 PM
When fishing suspended fish, do you fish around or right through the bait fish?
Around, through, and awayd from. Don't get hung up on having to see baitfish on the graph for catching fish out suspended. At least half the fish we boat is while there isn't anything on the graph, and may not have marked anything in awhile.
| |
| | |
Posts: 1168
| CiscoKid - 6/12/2012 7:48 AM
Around, through, and awayd from. Don't get hung up on having to see baitfish on the graph for catching fish out suspended. At least half the fish we boat is while there isn't anything on the graph, and may not have marked anything in awhile.
^This.
It's just as important to study the structure on a lake when fishing out there as it is when you are picking apart structure up close. Muskies will roam from point to point or hump to hump without any presence of baitfish. They will relate to baitfish but it's not the only reason they are out there. You can waste a lot of time if the only thing you are looking for is the presence of food. You might not even catch a true suspended fish but instead catch one that is a roamer moving from one thing to another. Either way, there are quite a few fish that are out over deep (30+ fow) water for one reason or another. | |
| | |
| I have had a little luck in the metro catching deep water fish. Like others have said it takes time and you wont get many follows. I have always wanted to do it, and one day forgot the trooling motor battery and was rather windy. So decided what the heck just cast to the depths. We ended up catching the cleanest looking Tonka Muskie ever and had another one on. I am actually going to focus on it more this year as it is usually unpressured fish out there! | |
| | |
Posts: 1023
| Thanks for this topic.
I found it very informative and I should try it this summer as I fish a Lake Trout Lake for 2 weeks each summer and find I get most of my biggest fish on steep shorelines.
Should I just turn around and toss out the other way towards deep water or move out and bomb away.
I am getting my fish on deeper walls near the 2 deepest basins - 80 and 90 feet deep - and I am casting into shore with the boat sitting in 20 - 35 feet of water.
I have had a few real biggies show up suddenly at the boat - could have been deep followers or deeper fish I guess???
Landry | |
| | |
Posts: 572
Location: Maplewood, MN | Awesome story on the tonka fish. I'm guessing one huge factor to fishing in the middle is making long casts to cover water? I am excited to try this new tactic. | |
| | |
Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Mike - 6/12/2012 4:20 PM
I have had a little luck in the metro catching deep water fish. Like others have said it takes time and you wont get many follows. I have always wanted to do it, and one day forgot the trooling motor battery and was rather windy. So decided what the heck just cast to the depths. We ended up catching the cleanest looking Tonka Muskie ever and had another one on. I am actually going to focus on it more this year as it is usually unpressured fish out there!
---
I will agree that the depths of Tonka are less pressured but I would not say they are un-pressured unless you are fishing at night in the middle of the lake. Tonka is one of the most pressured waters I have ever seen in my life. The lake has more boats on it including bass guys, crappie guys, walleye guys, pleasure boaters and a huge increasing number of musky guys... I spend 90% of my fishing time on Tonka (I still love the lake, great for fishing if you know where to go) But the lake is FAR from under pressured. In fact it is so pressured to the point to where I think the fish are patterning the fisherman instead of the other way around. We all fish the same times of day. after work, and on the weekends. Muskie - "well it's 5pm on a Friday... were probably about to start seeing those giant rubber things right about now" ...At least that's how I picture it in my head...
That being said I am also going to start to target more fish in deep water... Not because I think I will do any better, but because I am always trying to increase my knowledge of different ways to catch em... to use all situations to my advantage... | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Landry it is as easy as moving out a cast if you are continually having fish show up late. If that stops after moving out a cast then you know it wasn’t a matter of the fish being out deeper, but that of the fish were just late comers.
MuskieFever, while long cast definitely cover the most water you need to be careful for the obvious reason of trying to get hooks into a fish that hit after 2 cranks of the handle as it happens a lot suspended. Also some baits work great on shorter casts suspended, and those are ones that you can countdown like Joes and hardheads. Lots of fish eat them on the drop so why make a bomb cast and try to hook them way out when you can make shorter casts, control your depth better, and get better hook ups. Long casts are good, but really long casts can be BAD.
| |
| | |
Posts: 1023
| CiscoKid - 6/13/2012 1:41 PM
Landry it is as easy as moving out a cast if you are continually having fish show up late. If that stops after moving out a cast then you know it wasn’t a matter of the fish being out deeper, but that of the fish were just late comers.
Good tip. Clever yet simple - I will try that. Thanks | |
| | |
Posts: 572
Location: Maplewood, MN | Do you ever aimlessly pick a deeper area to fish even if you haven't marked baitfish and if it doesn't have a contrasting bottom? | |
| | |
Posts: 1168
| MuskieFever - 6/14/2012 12:47 AM
Do you ever aimlessly pick a deeper area to fish even if you haven't marked baitfish and if it doesn't have a contrasting bottom?
Yep | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | ulbian - 6/14/2012 3:26 AM
MuskieFever - 6/14/2012 12:47 AM
Do you ever aimlessly pick a deeper area to fish even if you haven't marked baitfish and if it doesn't have a contrasting bottom?
Yep
Another yep, and what I do a lot personally.
Fishing out in the abyss is a lot less complicated than what most writers make you think. It really is as simple as getting out there, and covering water. You will eventually find sections of basins that always hold fish from year to year on a lake, and other sections that may hold fish for a few weeks to never contact one there again for years to follow.
While baitfish can be important it isn't the answer to it all. You could fish baitfish balls all stinkin' day out there, and not catch a fish. You could NOT mark a stitch of bait all day, and boat four. Keep in mind that just because you don't mark bait doesn't mean the bait isn't out from the boat. High riding baitfish do not like to hang near the boat for the most part.
Suspended are also out in the deep for more than just eating. They live out there. Therefore they are not always going to be chasing food. I believe they also set up in locations they know baitfish will travel to before the baitfish get there, and wait to intercept them when they do come.
Not a lot written about fishing suspended because there is only so much to say about it. Other than articles I have seen written by Paul Klein the rest of them are just, well, I won't say. Keep it simple, cover water, and use your head and you'll have success. If you want to read soemthing to give you an edge on fishing muskies then I suggest perhaps reading about what they feed on. Learn about ciscos, whitefish, perch, suckers/redhorse, etc... and their movements. | |
| | |
Posts: 1169
Location: New Hope MN | CiscoKid - 6/14/2012 6:34 AM
Not a lot written about fishing suspended because there is only so much to say about it. Other than articles I have seen written by Paul Klein the rest of them are just, well, I won't say. Keep it simple, cover water, and use your head and you'll have success. If you want to read soemthing to give you an edge on fishing muskies then I suggest perhaps reading about what they feed on. Learn about ciscos, whitefish, perch, suckers/redhorse, etc... and their movements.
I would totally read up on baitfish behavior. Where do i find that informatin?!? | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I should probably clarify my last post a bit. Here is why I don’t believe you should hang your hat on certain “cues” (small bottom changes, deep contour breaks, etc…) out in the abyss, as well as baitfish.
Some lakes the entire deep water area of the lake, containing the basins as well as flats adjacent to, produce suspended and deep water fish. Sure you can say I am going to fish the basin edge (not sure how you determine it’s the edge though) and catch fish. You then equate that to that is the key and what you should do on all lakes, and also ignore the other water on the lake. Meanwhile you could have simply motored out onto the lake, drifted the 35’ flat 400 yards away from the basin, and caught fish. Perhaps larger fish. Every lake is different in a way, and in a way a lot of lakes are the same. Best way to success on a lake, or lakes, fishing suspended or deep structure is you have to learn it’s idiosyncrasies and it’s patterns. Over time you will know in June to fish a certain area of the lake, but in Aug you better be in another and can ignore the June spot, but In Sept that June area can be going again. Or you will come to learn that no matter how hard you try to find a pattern like the previous mentioned ones on a lake you just can’t, and you just need to cover water indiscriminately to boat fish.
Keep an open mind, and have confidence that the fish are out there.
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | dtaijo174 - 6/14/2012 7:09 AM
CiscoKid - 6/14/2012 6:34 AM
Not a lot written about fishing suspended because there is only so much to say about it. Other than articles I have seen written by Paul Klein the rest of them are just, well, I won't say. Keep it simple, cover water, and use your head and you'll have success. If you want to read soemthing to give you an edge on fishing muskies then I suggest perhaps reading about what they feed on. Learn about ciscos, whitefish, perch, suckers/redhorse, etc... and their movements.
I would totally read up on baitfish behavior. Where do i find that informatin?!?
In-Fisherman was always a good magazine as I know for a while they use to have a column about species that aren’t commonly targeted. Things like carp, Tulibee/Cisco, whitefish, Scaupin, etc… You can also just search the web by a species you want to know about and find oodles of info. Also visit other websites like this, but for other species.
Really any multi-species magazine will give you tidbits of info…if you keep an open mind. You may be surprised what you may learn even while reading about catfish, and guys that fish for them suspended off the bottom.
Also dare I say take it one step further, and fish for those “other” species. Nothing like firsthand experience on the location and behavior of the “baitfish” in the lake you musky fish. I know I don’t do it enough, but a lot of what I have learned about other species is from the years of catching them before I got into musky fishing heavily.
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | ulbian - 6/11/2012 2:19 AM
A response from Ciscokid coming in 3....2....1....
maybe even 6 or 7 | |
| | |
Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | jonnysled - 6/14/2012 7:38 AM
ulbian - 6/11/2012 2:19 AM
A response from Ciscokid coming in 3....2....1....
maybe even 6 or 7
I'll take 10 or 12 if Travis wants to keep writing. The last few seasons I've been fishing fishing deeper than i used to and have had success doing it, especially once thermoclines develop. Still, it's not something with a lot of writing done on the topic, so Iread everything I can about the subject - especially when it comes from deep water specialists like Travis.
Tucker
Edited by curleytail 6/14/2012 1:16 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1168
| I sort of chuckle a bit at the "find pods of baitfish" obsession. Why look for pods of baitfish when you can learn about them and predict where they will be? Seems to be a more efficient use of time.
"But the wind will blow the food to one side of the lake." Interesting thought there...then how in the sam hill do suckers run up stream against current? In rivers why aren't every perch, bluegill, crappie, etc. washed down with the current? Fishing below dams would be the biggest waste of time imaginable. These food sources for muskies can swim against river current, wind current, return current, etc. They won't necessarily all be blown into a shoreline but how often is it the case where the wind picks up from one direction and the monkey see, monkey do mentality takes over and you see boats heading to windblown rocks, points, and humps? It takes time for that type of a pattern to set up...but nope. A gnat farts on the west end of a lake causing a slight breeze and boom, off to the races some guys will go.
Fish, whether they are muskies or something a muskie will snack on don't always aimlessly follow their quarry around. There are reasons why you have schools of crappies, perch, ciscoes, etc. suspending over the deep basins that have nothing to do with finding food. Sometimes they are out there in search of a meal and other times they are not. Why is that? I have what seem to be some pretty solid theories of this on my own but in order to stimulate more thought in this thread I won't divulge those thoughts.....so I ask...why are they out there if they are not looking for food? Second question if you can start to put the puzzle together on that first question, can you predict those locations based on your theory above? BST or otherwise? Finally...if you have confidence in predicting those locations, how much time will it save going directly to them than it would be simply driving around watching electronics for pods of bait fish?
Spending time cruising around looking for baitfish to me is a waste of time and gets to be too hard. The smarter thing to do in my opinion is to narrow that search down by predicting where they will be. There are no hard and fast rules in muskie fishing but one that I adhere to is to "Fish smarter, not harder" and the ROI has improved dramatically.
| |
| | |
Posts: 247
Location: Uxbridge Ontario | CiscoKid - 6/13/2012 2:41 AM
Landry it is as easy as moving out a cast if you are continually having fish show up late. If that stops after moving out a cast then you know it wasn’t a matter of the fish being out deeper, but that of the fish were just late comers.
Relating this offshoot of the topic to a slump I went through last season, I found myself fixated on structure trying to break my badluck. I ended up fishing on a very windy day and also ran into foot pedal issues so I was constantly pushd into cover (weedlines, over point and into shore). So I stared fishing "inside out" alot more than usual (sitting on the structure and casting out away from it).... And I was rewarded with a 6 fish day. My numbers have drastically increased now that I am back to fishing tactfully and not fixated.
Think about it, suspending fish, fishing following bait fish movement and even water current all relate to stucture and not only in one dimension; so dont fish one dimentionally. If you are not contacting fish toward structure, move in and throw out, or move in and throw along that break... or out even more and along the break. You hear a lot about fishing angles and presentation. It basically means that its not always enough to put a bait infront of fish, but means put it at them in a position that they are expecting their food to come from.
My question for CiscoKid is, with your experience fishing "Depths", how important is strucure (regarless of its subtlety)?
Being relatively new to the deepwater game, what are the indications that a spot may produce?
How close or far from "prodominant" structure like shore, a reef or breakline, could you be fishing (regardless of the water depth)? I am not sure how far out suspended fish can travel to be completely honest. | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | HomeTime - 6/17/2012 9:49 PM
My question for CiscoKid is, with your experience fishing "Depths", how important is strucure (regarless of its subtlety)?
Being relatively new to the deepwater game, what are the indications that a spot may produce?
How close or far from "prodominant" structure like shore, a reef or breakline, could you be fishing (regardless of the water depth)? I am not sure how far out suspended fish can travel to be completely honest.
As far as supended fishing goes, structure don't mean anything. Lots going on out in the basin of the lake, and you could be miles away from any kind of structure and still catch fish although I don't recommend trying it for the caster.
Indications a fish will be there? You mark it on your graph, have one follow, or catch it. Sorry there really are no indications other than that.
Edited by CiscoKid 6/18/2012 6:33 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | deep water ... hmmm
take a map ... use a color-code. ear-mark the deepest holes and outline them in one color.
now, mark in another color all immediately adjacent structure
- humps one color (even the subtle ones that are deep but come out of deeper)
- points one color
- weed edges another color
- cribs ... mark the ones that you think "relate" to the deep water
- especially know where there is sand-grass (100% of your effort should be in and around sand-grass if it is present).
now, start to tie them together with another color and start to see the pathways that tie them together. even a train of 50' that come out of 70' or more. nothing is too deep, even a boulder that you can find between a point and a weedline.
learn the sink-rates of all of your baits and understand how to bomb long-casts with cranks and reel em down deep first then rip-twitch and pause and be willing to fish them aggressively (i mean really aggressive) with pauses. lay an icon when you contact fish and go back and try to find any subtlety. fish even deep water fish like structure ... if it's uncanny that you see fish in a certain basin spot, it's not uncanny ... there is a reason. figure out that reason and you have a spot on the spot.
we fish typically a combo of bulldawg and raider (when weeds are present) or ddd (when over the deep structure without weeds).
this technique has caught a fish or three over the years.
edit:
i subscribe to the notion that 80% of the fish are in 20% of the water and eat 10% of the time and that you can consistently contact fish (which i've learned over the years from a combination of experience and good relationships with others who think about this stuff and do well) by using a systematic approach that includes developing a detailed knowledge of the water and how you approach it.
chukin' baits in the abyss hoping something will happen comes just before vertical jigging (at least until jon bondy screwed up my viewpoint of this) and loading the boat onto the trailer.
Edited by jonnysled 6/18/2012 11:40 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Here is an article along the lines of what Sled mentions for mapping.
http://www.forciersguideservice.com/pages/posts/map-madness3.php
Although good for making stuctures "pop" out on a map again not a required exercise when targetting suspended fish on a smaller lake. It really is as simple as covering water and having confidence the fish are there. If you have to try and find a reason that fish was in 65' of water so be it as long as it gives you the confidence to stay out there.
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | CiscoKid - 6/18/2012 12:26 PM
Here is an article along the lines of what Sled mentions for mapping.
http://www.forciersguideservice.com/pages/posts/map-madness3.php
Although good for making stuctures "pop" out on a map again not a required exercise when targetting suspended fish on a smaller lake. It really is as simple as covering water and having confidence the fish are there. If you have to try and find a reason that fish was in 65' of water so be it as long as it gives you the confidence to stay out there.
i agree with you on the small lakes but personally wouldn't choose a suspended pattern there (especially meso edit: unless it's the fall sucker bite --- then it's money:/ ... at least in '05-'07 unless they changed that ... God i hate sucker fishing) if there is a good defined deep weed-edge. if i want to find a big fish on those lakes at least in my experience she'd relate to that. finding them in the bigger lakes (vilas/oneida county ...) start making your list and you can probably figure out some of the spots (hint: if you fish at night watch out for row-trollers).
but, what the he!! do i know i play golf and fish smallies ...
i do know that if i were going to plan to musky fish, i'd have a plan for what i'm doing and expect to contact fish and if i didn't i'd be outfished by people who do. that's the way it usually happens anyway.
contacting fish is one thing ... catching them is another. if you're not contacting fish then you need to scratch your head and quite literally go back to the drawing board.
Edited by jonnysled 6/18/2012 12:57 PM
| |
| | |
| Rick Clunn once said in regards to bass fishing...fish the stuff that looks like junk..stuff other people will avoid. Secondary spots or subtleties in structure are where the goliaths live. | |
| | |
Posts: 247
Location: Uxbridge Ontario | CiscoKid - 6/18/2012 1:26 AM
Here is an article along the lines of what Sled mentions for mapping.
http://www.forciersguideservice.com/pages/posts/map-madness3.php
Although good for making stuctures "pop" out on a map again not a required exercise when targetting suspended fish on a smaller lake. It really is as simple as covering water and having confidence the fish are there. If you have to try and find a reason that fish was in 65' of water so be it as long as it gives you the confidence to stay out there.
Great article.
Sled, thats for the insight into key deep structure identification. | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | just looked at the link ... what i've learned is lines and not common-depth shading, but we're talking about deep-water fishing, right? ... that view looks confusing to me with it shaded and filling in the whole lake with color-code??. what i'm talking about there may be 4 humps, 7 points, 3 islands and 5 saddles that relate to the deepest water on the lake/system. identifying them and connecting the dots looking for subtlety between them is what i'm talking about.
... as an example, if you fish lake minocqua the basin connects to the point on fishers, the point on clumbs, clumbs bar itself, two boathouse point and a few deeper weed edges that you will have to look for to find etc... and ties them together for some logical drifts for casting open water. the fish that may be on the tip of one point will travel to the other and find something in-between to use as a path. i wouldn't work anything near stacks bay in this example so the mapping there would be blank | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/18/2012 10:18 PM
just looked at the link ... what i've learned is lines and not common-depth shading, but we're talking about deep-water fishing, right? ... that view looks confusing to me with it shaded and filling in the whole lake with color-code??. what i'm talking about there may be 4 humps, 7 points, 3 islands and 5 saddles that relate to the deepest water on the lake/system. identifying them and connecting the dots looking for subtlety between them is what i'm talking about.
... as an example, if you fish lake minocqua the basin connects to the point on fishers, the point on clumbs, clumbs bar itself, two boathouse point and a few deeper weed edges that you will have to look for to find etc... and ties them together for some logical drifts for casting open water. the fish that may be on the tip of one point will travel to the other and find something in-between to use as a path. i wouldn't work anything near stacks bay in this example so the mapping there would be blank
Sled you have a one-track mind. The article was meant to be an example, and anyone can apply it to their scenario as they see fit. When I use to take the time to do it I started with the deep water, and left all the shallow water uncolored.
In my opinion looking for subleties in 60' of water is foolish, and means you are just grasping at straws. Anyone that has done any amount of suspended fishing knows the fish will be out there not relating to anything, and that finidning that tiny little 2' "bump" on the bottom in 60' isn't the spot on the spot in the basin.
Part of fishing suspended is keeping an open mind. Don't try to make preconceived notions of where the fish will be. Sure it will work some of the time, but other times there will be fish where you would have never guessed them to be. If you just limit yourself to fishing little subtleties and between structures of course you will never catch anythign away from them as you will never have fished them.
Sled you sure have a lot of info about fishing suspended for a guy that thinks it is a waste of time. 
Edit: I love this example of a lake when talking fishing suspended. Immediately what pops out is the line of humps running North-South. You bet you will catch fish on and between them. Sled would have you thinking this is one of the spots you should concentrate your efforts on. However, the magenta colored water is what would be considered true suspended fishing, and where Sled would be telling you not to waste your time based on his previous responses. I can tell you for certain that you will miss out on a lot of suspended fish by ignoring the magenta water. You bet the map don’t indicate where you should fish. Neither does your graph if you drive all over that basin. However drift it and you will catch fish.
Edited by CiscoKid 6/19/2012 7:13 AM
Attachments
----------------
 No Structure 1.jpg (90KB - 249 downloads)
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Now take this lake for example. Sled based on your criteria where would you suggest to fish this lake for those wanting to tap into the deep water bite? Always best for those wanting to learn to be able to see examples.
Attachments
----------------
Deep Structure 1.jpg (54KB - 433 downloads)
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i see 2 holes 35' and 45' and two 25' humps out of 30' that would be the hub for the deep-water pieces ... i'd fish that north break-line and point on the island and start heading to the to the two connect the two 25' humps and the 30' hole and then cover the deep break off the shoreline point that ties to the smaller 25' hump looking for sand-grass on those humps ... the smaller features are more attractive to me than the longer, deeper hole. the longer hole and south shoreline are a bit non descript, but i'd go searching for cribs or anything that ties that outside edge to the shoreline and that subtle point.
or you could just go chukin' baits and hope something shows up i suppose ...
today i wouldn't do any of it cuz it's nasty outside ...
Edited by jonnysled 6/19/2012 8:04 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | not at all a waste of time ... it's money. how did you do on the opener travis? | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | @ Jon Bondy ... how would you approach similar structure? what are you looking for when out on the bigger water?? | |
| | |
Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I have seen some very interesting behavior in the larger predators out in the abyss during the winter associated with fairly subtle deep structure. Started looking for structures out there in the deepest water on the lake, and it paid off nicely last couple winters.
The camera showed me the association to smaller structure elements was not the structure itself, but the other critters using it. Deepest waters we fish in the winter are 35 to 40', as we don't ice fish any waters with more depth. | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | That contour point off the west side of the island is a no brainer so good call. However perhaps I set you up knowing you would concentrate on those little humps in the deep, and look for sandgrass. Quite frankly there are a lot of lakes that do not contain sandgrass, and thus I have a problem with using that as a crutch when trying to tell someone where to start when targeting deep water. This lake is an example of one that does not really contain any sandgrass.
You have discounted a lot of water and have left very little water to fish, which isn’t bad I suppose if the water you are left with is the best water. Again maybe I set you up since I fish this water body and know where the fish are often caught, and *maybe* you don’t know the lake. However with your lack of fishing suspended water knowledge you left out a lot of the good water.
While trying to figure out a suspended pattern on a lake I will admit I will look for obvious structures, and try to tie them together like Sled suggests. However, I also look at what may look to be the really boring stuff. Why? Because that is often where you will find the true suspended fish. Lots of lakes will have true suspendos, and will also have those that relate or loosely relate to structure. The later being those that relate to humps, spines, and out from a breakline a bit. True suspendos are those that won’t be found near any structure, and make up a pretty dang big population on a lot of lakes. Lakes with pelagic fish are lakes that are great for the true suspenders as fish like cisco could care less about structure. Even lakes with perch/suckers will have a good population of true suspended fish but not to the extent of those containing pelagic baitfish. In the case of those lakes mud bottoms can become important. That’s where the bugs live that feed the food chain.
Highlighted are some of the areas of the previous lake I concentrate on fishing “deep”, and are proven. In some cases I will look at shoreline and mid lake structures, and visualize “triangles” of water that may produce. However what you cannot do is discount water outside that triangle. I show these triangles in red.
Attachments
----------------
Deep Structure 2.jpg (59KB - 269 downloads)
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | sworrall - 6/19/2012 8:20 AM
I have seen some very interesting behavior in the larger predators out in the abyss during the winter associated with fairly subtle deep structure. Started looking for structures out there in the deepest water on the lake, and it paid off nicely last couple winters.
The camera showed me the association to smaller structure elements was not the structure itself, but the other critters using it. Deepest waters we fish in the winter are 35 to 40', as we don't ice fish any waters with more depth.
Steve I don’t doubt it that eventually you will see something if you target subtleties all the time. Did you spend an equal amount of time in the wide open with no subtleties around to compare your results to? | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | a predator would try to hold on a rock you could carry in your hand ... | |
| | |
Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | We drill a ton of holes all over the area and look at each top to bottom when we begin searching for fish. One lake we fish has big crappies and gills that move around in 35', stay to the bottom during high light, and appear as soon as the sun hits the trees. On one lake we fished last winter the drop between 32 and 35, which was a visible shelf, held the most gamefish the two times we fished it. Sled knows that lake, he sent me there. There was very little activity shallower or deeper, and weirdly, the rock bass went nuts when the sun set way out there in the deeps. There were weird 'holes' all over in the sand and gravel we couldn't figure out.
We deploy at least 4 underwater cameras and record while fishing, so if something stops by to check out the tip up offering or cruises the area, we'll usually see it.
Short answer is yes, we did. And we are not 'targeting subtleties' as such, we are looking for fish, and if they are in the area, the Aqua-Vu Micro we use for the search will see them.
If there's sand grass or other bottom vegetation in the area and there can be in 35', what's important is what portion of that cover the pannies...especially the little ones, are sitting in during the higher light, and the 'why' of what's holding them there. It's amazing watching them rise out of that stuff when the light goes down, and the number of Esox we see cruising the area as soon as they do. The Muskies are especially drawn to a full size Aqua-Vu camera, it's bluegill shaped and colored.
If it's too dark for photosynthesis, there are usually no fish in that part of the water column anyway.
Keep in mind, this is under the ice, so some behaviors might be different than in the soft water times of the year when thermoclines, algae, etc. come into play.
Attachments
----------------
Picture.bmp (1200KB - 321 downloads)
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | OK now we are getting somewhere. My question is how did you find that 3’ shelf you said was so good? I believe by drilling lots of holes, and covering water right? The map didn’t show you it was there did it?
My point being this. Initially you have to go out and cover water. By covering water you locate fish. Through years of this you learn the deep waters areas that tend to hold fish most consistently, and those that are hit or miss. You are not going to put your boat on the 3’ break and try to follow it and try and catch muskies. Not unless you have a pinpoint. Besides being on that break is useless unless you are jigging, and thus you want to be off of it. If off of it how do you cast to it, unless you map that baby out as Painter/Nelson wrote an article on. Through experience, and knowing where you tend to typically contact fish, you can set-up drifts to cover that water. One you make sure you cover that break, but also the water surrounding it as the fish will not stayed glued to it.
For a beginner first trying to tap into suspended fishing you need to learn the water…the deep water. Best way to do that is to just fish it. Driving around mapping it only gives you half the story.
Edit: As Steve added more while I was typing my response. As Steve clearly points out there were "wierd" holes all over. How do you efficiently fish those areas for musky? You cast them and cover water as you don't know how many of those "holes" are throughout the lake. I don't think anyone plans to cover all the water on a lake with a camera scoping out the bottom subtleties to determine where they should best spend their time fishing suspended. That's like driving around looking for baitfish to fish, but a bit more absurd.
The camera example actually would lend itself more to why we should vertical jig an area rather than cast it.
Edited by CiscoKid 6/19/2012 12:09 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | you're starting to get it grasshopper ...
read bondy's response about a zillion times. it boils down the rubbish we're all trying to say. steve shows it on video. ambush fish hold - go - hold - go.
find the hold.
wish i could find the cartoon of the predator (i think it's a lion) ... trying to hide behind a blade of grass.
i know a couple of dummies that will spend 80% of their time mapping a lake and then fish 20% of the time they have ... you know em too. lol | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | question ...
do you use your electronics? how??
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/19/2012 12:06 PM
question ...
do you use your electronics? how??
Yep, so I don't run aground!
| |
| | |
Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The holes were only about a foot or so across and maybe 3 to 5" deep, really weird, and there were LOTS of them. Out in 32' of water I couldn't come up with anything that would make those holes, but there they were. | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/19/2012 12:03 PM
you're starting to get it grasshopper ...
read bondy's response about a zillion times. it boils down the rubbish we're all trying to say. steve shows it on video. ambush fish hold - go - hold - go.
find the hold.
wish i could find the cartoon of the predator (i think it's a lion) ... trying to hide behind a blade of grass.
i know a couple of dummies that will spend 80% of their time mapping a lake and then fish 20% of the time they have ... you know em too. lol
Hold-go-hold-go. You only concentrate on the hold, I am talking about concentrating on both the hold and go. These fish are not just sitting out "there" holding to something until a little morsal swims along. Besides what good is that 3' ledge 40' below the fish? Muskies are not following the ledge even when they are suspended way above it. Sur they may follow it when near bottom as then they are looking to feed on what is following it as well, but then we are not necessarily talking about suspended fishing. Now we are talking deep structure fishing. | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | sworrall - 6/19/2012 12:13 PM
The holes were only about a foot or so across and maybe 3 to 5" deep, really weird, and there were LOTS of them. Out in 32' of water I couldn't come up with anything that would make those holes, but there they were.
Springs! or gas pockets.
So there were lots of them, and I venture to guess covered a pretty big area? Again you drift that baby covering water as there are too many to just concentrate on one or two. | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | CiscoKid - 6/19/2012 12:14 PM
Hold-go-hold-go. You only concentrate on the hold, I am talking about concentrating on both the hold and go. .
read Travis ...
the mapping connects the dots. fish the map you build ... use your electronics to build it and continually update the detail as you add experiences. understand the why ... and you will find the where.
or just try to pirate the chip and bounce to all the skull and crossbones
God i wish i had more of that data ... | |
| | |
Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | Good Discussion. I wrote the article Travis referenced long before GPS Mapping chips..... but its still a good exercise for the brain. Also, the intent of that article was to open poeples eyes to more subtle structures often overlooked by the masses.... and especially those DEEPER structures. I did a lot of suspended fishing in the 90's... but my return on the investment in regard to BIG fish was just not what I wanted. No doubt it is a great technique for catching QUALITY fish, but if you are targeting the biggest fish in the lake... I just don't think fishing the basin puts the odds in your favor for making contact with that fish. Keep that in mind when deciding whether you want to tackle the basin or not. | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/19/2012 12:21 PM
CiscoKid - 6/19/2012 12:14 PM
Hold-go-hold-go. You only concentrate on the hold, I am talking about concentrating on both the hold and go. .
read Travis ...
the mapping connects the dots. fish the map you build ... use your electronics to build it and continually update the detail as you add experiences. understand the why ... and you will find the where.
or just try to pirate the chip and bounce to all the skull and crossbones
God i wish i had more of that data ...
Mapping works in some instances, and others it is not needed. I must ask how much time do you fish suspended, and how much time do you spend in 30+ feet of water fishing structure? | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jlong - 6/19/2012 12:25 PM
Good Discussion. I wrote the article Travis referenced long before GPS Mapping chips..... but its still a good exercise for the brain. Also, the intent of that article was to open poeples eyes to more subtle structures often overlooked by the masses.... and especially those DEEPER structures. I did a lot of suspended fishing in the 90's... but my return on the investment in regard to BIG fish was just not what I wanted. No doubt it is a great technique for catching QUALITY fish, but if you are targeting the biggest fish in the lake... I just don't think fishing the basin puts the odds in your favor for making contact with that fish. Keep that in mind when deciding whether you want to tackle the basin or not.
Ooooh a mood buster! LOL! I ask J, didn't you see a very large fish in the basin one year during the WMT? Also don't you have one of your largest boated in WI in the Basin?
Besides the question asked wasn't where is it better to fish, basin or shallow structure, but how to do it. I know you must have some to add J? | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | most of the time.
depends on where the fish are though ... post frontal i tend to crawl up into the slop. each lake is different. from the bassin' background of my past oxygen, water-temp., cover and food. 80% of the fish live in 20% of the water and eat 10% of the time and there is usually a reason a fish is where it is or moving from where it was to where it's going.
do you approach the Canadian shield in the same way? | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | can you save old lowrance icons to the new HD units ;0)
on a lighter note ... we did it (i'll leave my partner's name out) and then i learned sitting at the Belle Isle how to do it systematically, then i learned more about the details data collection and storage up at AML. i'll have to say i had been more of a "feel" and "experience" guy but did fish a map in my mind tying everything together prior to ditching muskies for bass and ice focus. the more i've learned though on the other fishing (ice and bass), the more i've come back to the systematic approach of mapping and detail i learned through these guys who have i believe mastered the art. they systematically score and fish a virtual video game using electronics. it's not just the two you mention but a couple more ... too reliable to not consider worthwhile ...
no matter what you fish or how you fish ... it's a game. why not try to figure it out?? beleiving that it can't be figured out would dispute some guys i know who can't be as lucky as they are good.
| |
| | |
Posts: 621
Location: Seymour, WI | I know that this questions has been asked before, but can someone post a picture of what deep sand grass is. I would like to see a picture of the actual plant.
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Grass - 6/19/2012 12:54 PM
I know that this questions has been asked before, but can someone post a picture of what deep sand grass is. I would like to see a picture of the actual plant.
great question and wish i had a picture ... i pulled a stalk about 12' long out of that patch Steve shows the video on out of 35' of water. sometimes it's tight to the bottom and sometimes it's like a friggin kelp forest. so easy to find in the winter while ice fishing an that's also a great time to get to know your lakes.
as travis mentions, not all lakes have it
but, if they do ... fish the dog out of it and know how to get your bait to it. a polish fella who likes to drive boats really fast showed me once how he can find spots in it that have varied height of the sand-grass. using his electronics, he targets it with his casts and can feel the tops ticking the hooks on his bulldawg. smartest thing to do when in the boat with him is to just hold onto the #*^@ net and be ready, no sense casting yourself. go look and find some video clips and listen to the guys while they are fishing. other than the guys noted here who use systematic approaches to deep-water tactics using electronics like jlong, cpainter and bnelson ... search some of the badfishoutdoors.net video files and see how to systematically contact and catch fish. so much to learn and put into practice ... here's a guy we all know who rarely looks at the water when he casts ... his eyes are glued to his electronics fishing "his system" ... wish he had a usb port on the side of his head!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Is16xPVDk
anyone who has ever ice-fished with mark and watched him drill a hole/s to set a tip-up will know what i'm talking about ... and probably be laughing right now with an experience of stepping into one of the "finder holes" ... lol. it's in the detail ... it's all in the details.
it's worth it ... and works with many species for narrowing down the ability to find fish which under limited time is what we all are looking for, right?
deep sand-grass holds big LMB's too ... :0)
jig-shake-rest ... watch your line swim to the side
Edited by jonnysled 6/19/2012 1:46 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Nope, not springs, and no, the area those weird depressions were in wasn't real big, maybe a cast across from any angle. A spring in sand and gravel really sticks out because of the way the gravel is dispersed around the moving water. These were perfectly formed holes with no sign of any disturbed sand or gravel on the edges. Weird, and I'm going back next year because the fishing was enjoyable and the video very interesting. | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | there will be a permanent shack there with a key in your name next season Steve ... we are putting our stake in the ground ... err, ice. | |
| | |
Posts: 1149
| Good reading guys.
Sled, thank you for mentioning Mark Lijewski. That dude can catch open water muskies more consistently than anyone I've ever seen. I still have a little man-crush on him.
Musky Madness III. Enough said!!!
BTW, when they're fishing Lake of the Woods, Lappen tries to tell Mark that fish will not be caught if grass is the predominant weed... and Mark politely calls him out. If you're familiar with that part, are they referring to sand grass? If so, that's too funny. As this discussion makes sand grass sound like gold carpet. | |
| | |
Posts: 1149
| I am not fortunate enough to have GPS yet so I rely on paper maps especially when fishing any new water. I tried the color coding last night on a map that I fish often and it opened my eyes to a couple different things. Good topic. Carry on. | |
| | |
Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | Great discussion. Thier is somthing to be said about having structure marked up even if you are doing drifts along or around the stucture and abysis. Even though Travis likes the open water he contacts a lot of fish just off structure on the edge of the open water. I tried to show him how knowing the exact layout of the structure, and having it marked out can pay dividends, even if you are doing wide drifts.... not sure it ALL sunk in huh Travis 
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | It sunk in Cory, but there are lakes that I catch many a fish away from any structure. You just haven’t been on them with me. ? Keep in mind I am talking about how to fish deep water and suspended here, and not fishing rock humps that come up shallow nor shallower structure. I don’t exactly consider fishing a rock hump that comes up to 10’ out of 50’ of water deep water fishing. That is fishing shallow structure, and that is where your mapping comes in handy as not to blow the breakline of that hump. | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | there's the data-junkie himself ...
great opportunity to see the details in-person if you sign up for the Capital City outing to AML ... great learning experience for anyone who is interested in not only going fishing, but learning what these guys are talking about.
jlong's response to his color-mapping article (we didn't have gps at the time) reminds me of when everyone was coming out of the paper map, triangulating and sonar searching times and into the first major movements into the use of gps for more than just navigating. long-necks, fireside talks at a little white cabin in memory along with another the fix forum had everyone moving the marble way out there from where most had been before.
some guys really stepped out ...
try competing with cory for a week without knowing or working details ... lol it'll learn ya up quick!! | |
| | |
Posts: 1168
| jonnysled - 6/19/2012 3:48 PM
the fix forum had everyone moving the marble way out there from where most had been before.
I miss that place. | |
| | |
Posts: 1023
| Wow - interesting reading.
Very technical - maybe too much so.
I am intense and analytical / O.C.D. but you guys are way beyond me.
I think I will find good shallow structure, near a deep basin. Fish the shallower stuff, then turn, put the trolling motor on #4, cover water and fish the basin.
I tend to over-analyze fishing. Sometimes you just need to cast and repeat. | |
| | |
| How is the night bite out the deep water!? I cant wait to try this new side of musky fishing this summer | |
| | |
Location: Contrarian Island | i have heard some so called open water experts say in articles or online forums that they have utilized their gps over open water to mark fish contacts/caught/hits etc and have found it to be as useful as us "shallow" water guys marking fish/weeds etc... maybe there is more out there than truly randomness to where fish are caught?...hmmm maybe/maybe not.. ..like sled says or eludes to some open water guys might not be utilizing the technology we have today to it's fullest to catch more fish... sled, why would you ever mark up a lake. | |
| | |
Posts: 2361
| I was reading this thread and got kind of dizzy, but then had a MN cooler or two or three until I got my blood alcohol level up to .15, and now it seems clearer, the dizziness has gone away and I am #*^@ ready to hit a golf ball!! | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | BNelson - 6/20/2012 6:45 PM
i have heard some so called open water experts say in articles or online forums that they have utilized their gps over open water to mark fish contacts/caught/hits etc and have found it to be as useful as us "shallow" water guys marking fish/weeds etc... maybe there is more out there than truly randomness to where fish are caught?...hmmm maybe/maybe not.. ..like sled says or eludes to some open water guys might not be utilizing the technology we have today to it's fullest to catch more fish... sled, why would you ever mark up a lake...
Sometimes guys that write articles need some "meat" to write an article about, and thus talk about using waypoints and such. Sure I could drop waypoints down, but like I said I personally don't feel it is needed for the true open water. Deep structure, sure mark away.
Again for someone starting out in open water I say keep it simple, and just cover water and learn what each lake has to offer as not every lake acts the same for the deep bite. Some you have to incorporate deep structure, and others you have to be in open, featureless water. If the deep water newbie wants to incorporate waypoints and icons have at it.
Landry has the right idea to start out, except for the speed deal. I will say this once. For the most part run your baits Ssssssssloooooooooooooooow.
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Guest - 6/20/2012 6:20 PM
How is the night bite out the deep water!? I cant wait to try this new side of musky fishing this summer :-)
Just as good as during the day. Sometimes better, and sometimes worse. | |
| | |
Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | BNelson - 6/20/2012 6:45 PM
i have heard some so called open water experts say in articles or online forums that they have utilized their gps over open water to mark fish contacts/caught/hits etc and have found it to be as useful as us "shallow" water guys marking fish/weeds etc... QUOTE]
It works, and something we started doing in vilas in the middle 90's, at first so we could disect the basin with a number of drifts. I don't fish up there much at all anymore, but in the early days after learning from some abyss bombers, it was casting the depths, painstakingly marking with handheld/remembering where things 'happened', coming back in attempt to repeat as well as trying to duplicate elsewhere. While we contact/ed enough fish not seemingly relating to anything, some of these spots in the abyss are perrennial producers even with no presence of bait, and the puzzle pieces began to fit.... See, the primary systems we fish/ed has a great cisco pop, but low and behold I'd discovered a steady flow of nutrients that are not randomly deposited, right under my nose. I know my garden likes food...... Great discussion guys.
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/20/2012 10:20 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Jason my question for you is are those spots that are perrennial producers for you that small that only by marking them can you make that drift again? I venture to guess not. You are right there are spots that tend to always hold fish, but man the lakes we are talking about are not huge. Pretty easy to remember the following year what driftline typically works, and which ones don't. I don't need a GPS to jog my memory. Maybe 30 years from now I will spend more time with that GPS because my memory may be shot.
Reef Hawg - 6/20/2012 10:10 PM
BNelson - 6/20/2012 6:45 PM
i have heard some so called open water experts say in articles or online forums that they have utilized their gps over open water to mark fish contacts/caught/hits etc and have found it to be as useful as us "shallow" water guys marking fish/weeds etc... QUOTE]
It works, and something we've been doing up in Vilas for a decade or so. I don't fish up there but an iota as much as I used to, but in the early days, it was casting the depths, painstakingly marking with handheld/remembering where things 'happened', coming back in attempt to replicate as well as trying to duplicate elsewhere. While we contact/ed enough fish not seemingly relating to anything, some of these spots in the abyss are perrennial producers, and the puzzle pieces began to fit. Of course, the primary systems we fish/ed has a great cisco pop, but low and behold I'd discovered a steady flow of nutrients that are not randomly deposited, right under my nose. I know my garden likes food... Great discussion guys.
Edited by CiscoKid 6/20/2012 10:18 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Agreed, some/most of the spots(you know them) are quite easy to find again and again on the small ponds. In fact, we were up this past weekend, and the two of us decided to fish with another guy who hadn't deep water fished before. We 'lined' up our drift according to how we 'used' to do it, and bombed away. Had a ball. However, if we had either of our own boats, we have enough waypoints that are not perfectly 'in line' with the drift, though too important to get 'just close enough' to, that we do things differently. We are limited on time anymore, and instead of setting up multiple drifts to hit a couple key spots, we'll bump ourselves along to and fro, hitting the cherry's, and off to the next lake, or better yet, a river somewhere. But yeah, though perhaps not as productive on a regular basis, it sure was fun drfting the old fashioned way this past weekend. The other guys beer tasted good in the other guys boat with the other guys truck at the landing too!
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/20/2012 10:51 PM
| |
| | |
| A few things to think about from a divers perspective.
I'll assume we are talking about a lake instead of a river. Deep is a relative term. You want to fish at or above the Thermocline. Oxygen levels may be quite low below it in summer. Higher end electronics can sometimes pick up the difference in water density at the high end of the manual sensitivity. How clear is the water? Don't expect a fish to come up 20 feet in a lake where you can't see your toes in waist deep water. Trolling can cover a lot of water, If it's permitted where you fish, and keeps the lure at a somewhat steady depth. Fish that are over deep open water are generally on schooled bait. As they push it, the bait may head towards the surface. Watch for birds working the area. Try lures that somewhat represent the prey. Hope this helps | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Reef Hawg - 6/20/2012 10:29 PM
Agreed, some/most of the spots(you know them) are quite easy to find again and again on the small ponds. In fact, we were up this past weekend, and the two of us decided to fish with another guy who hadn't deep water fished before. We 'lined' up our drift according to how we 'used' to do it, and bombed away. Had a ball. However, if we had either of our own boats, we have enough waypoints that are not perfectly 'in line' with the drift, though too important to get 'just close enough' to, that we do things differently. We are limited on time anymore, and instead of setting up multiple drifts to hit a couple key spots, we'll bump ourselves along to and fro, hitting the cherry's, and off to the next lake, or better yet, a river somewhere. But yeah, though perhaps not as productive on a regular basis, it sure was fun drfting the old fashioned way this past weekend. The other guys beer tasted good in the other guys boat with the other guys truck at the landing too!
i smell what you're steppin' in Jason!! i was in icon-boy's boat a few times this season where i could just say hey, let's go see if the next one is at home, and there the fat-ass would be!! ... i'd be ahead of the curve if i just invested in new electronics for him so that i didn't have to start mapping all over again! i'm starting all over but with brandy new toys hoping to get the data rebuilt soon!! my hope is that cory, brad or my other bud end up boat-less while up-north so i can offer them to "just take mine" ... hoping it'll come back home with more data.
i'd pick a piece a crap boat with a gps filled with data over a nice boat with none ... | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/21/2012 6:55 AM
i smell what you're steppin' in Jason!! i was in icon-boy's boat a few times this season where i could just say hey, let's go see if the next one is at home, and there the fat-ass would be!! ... i'd be ahead of the curve if i just invested in new electronics for him so that i didn't have to start mapping all over again! i'm starting all over but with brandy new toys hoping to get the data rebuilt soon!! my hope is that cory, brad or my other bud end up boat-less while up-north so i can offer them to "just take mine" ... hoping it'll come back home with more data.
i'd pick a piece a crap boat with a gps filled with data over a nice boat with none ...
Ah yes let someone else do all the hard work for you I see. So were all of your icons and waypoints out in no-mans land from you, or the buddies that fished with you?
This thread is an eye opener for me to see how many people have become relient on their GPS. Down right married to it. For the sake of sanity for all of you I hope nothing happens to your GPS!
Sled your example of jumping to the next icon above, and contacting fish is valid for structure fishing as I am sure that is what you were doing. A different game out in the open. Structure fish tend to be more of ambush predators like you mentioned with your blade of grass example. They are NOT ambush predators out in the open.
Edited by CiscoKid 6/21/2012 7:15 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | there are a lot of us who have worked as a team as our friendships have developed. we share knowledge all the time, share expenses, places to stay, sucker-tanks, boat buying and restoration tips, pizza, time with each others kids/dogs, tipups, atv's ... heck, we all even know the names and activities of each other's dogs ... lol ... and all sorts of other stuff.
best group of friends a guy could ask for!
travis ... this just-in. deep water has structure too
the goal is contacting and catching fish, right??
Edited by jonnysled 6/21/2012 7:19 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Absolutely deep water has structure. To be an ambush predator the muskie will need to be on the bottom blending in with the surroundings be that weeds, rocks, or ledges. To have weeds it has to be a shallow enough structure to which I do not consider it deep water anymore. Deep structures will have fish on them, and above them. You are only talking about fish on them with your GPS icon data talk. I am talking about the fish that are SUSPENDED above that structure.
Like I said GPS makes sense for humps. Deep water fishing is a lot more than just hitting humps. Ever fish a 30-40’ flat that is relatively featureless? Say a mud flat? I venture not as you wouldn’t have an icon there. I can tell you that the fish are on those flats!
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | hold - go - hold ...
don't forsake the hold
you believe that it has to be shallow to grow vegetation??
oh, glasss-ah-hopppa
deep mud is great for late fall suckers ... i'll show you a spot that's money.
also ... structure. a predator would try to hide behind a bowling ball or a baseball if it's the only "structure" around. heck, at steve's mud-hole sewer he calls a lake (moen's chain) a 1' change in depth is a shelf relatively speaking. find it. concept works throughout the body of water. and steve, you know that is a term of endearment of-course.
Edited by jonnysled 6/21/2012 7:44 AM
| |
| | |
Location: Contrarian Island | well it's interesting that Jason (reef hawg) comes on and says that he has learned/found that there are "sweet spots" out in open water where they could be relatively small and icons laid down will pay dividends on return visits...i'm interested to hear from other open water guys that spend a lot of time and catch a lot of fish out there what they have found...what if in your drifting travis you are a cast length off a sweet spot and you might think you are in the right area simply because the lake is small and you know the lake but someone else like Jason goes thru and goes thru the area he thinks is the sweet spot and catches a fish but you didn't..now i'm not saying it is needed out there but from Jasons post above he has found that maybe their isn't so much randomness out there as we might think? other open water guys have talked about there being less randomness out there and utilizing gps and i have a hard time believing it was just filler for an article.... the open water thing is interesting to me and i'd like to know more from some other open water guru's...keep the info coming...
have you found that laying down icons for fish contacted over the course of say a weekend pays off by coming back to those same fish/areas that trip? or do those fish move around too much out there?
Edited by BNelson 6/21/2012 7:47 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | BNelson - 6/21/2012 7:44 AM
well it's interesting that Jason (reef hawg) comes on and says that he has learned/found that there are "sweet spots" out in open water where they could be relatively small and icons laid down will pay dividends on return visits...i'm interested to hear from other open water guys that spend a lot of time and catch a lot of fish out there what they have found...what if in your drifting travis you are a cast length off a sweet spot and you might think you are in the right area simply because the lake is small and you know the lake but someone else like Jason goes thru and goes thru the area he thinks is the sweet spot and catches a fish but you didn't..now i'm not saying it is needed out there but from Jasons post above he has found that maybe their isn't so much randomness out there as we might think? other open water guys have talked about there being less randomness out there and utilizing gps and i have a hard time believing it was just filler for an article.... the open water thing is interesting to me and i'd like to know more from some other open water guru's...keep the info coming...
have you found that laying down icons for fish contacted over the course of say a weekend pays off by coming back to those same fish/areas that trip? or do those fish move around too much out there?
I am also interested Nellie as one of the best in the game at the deep water deal doesn't use icons from what I know and have seen firsthand. Unless he just started. | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | the point on "mud" is an interesting one. again, i'm reminded of a time on the ice with the crazy guy who drives boats fast ... his fastidious nature and attention to detail finding mud-rock transition even if he has to drill 10 holes in a 20' radius made me scratch my head.
things happen in mud too ... made my brain shift gears, grubs, worms etc... get eaten by what? and what eats them?? and especially if it might be a mud piece out of sand??? hmmmm, even more interesting. | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 7:56 AM
as one of the best in the game at the deep water deal
i thought that was you?? | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 6/21/2012 7:59 AM
CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 7:56 AM
as one of the best in the game at the deep water deal
i thought that was you??
Nope and never have claimed so. Seriously if anyone wants to learn the suspended deal and see what is done hire Paul Klein. Not only would you have a great time, but learn what is the “behind the scenes” of the deep water game. Just let me know if you need his contact info.
One thought about others results and GPS. To get a true perspective on suspended fishing, and whether GPS helps or not you need to find someone that has been doing it for some time. Before GPS time. The only way you will know if the use of GPS has increased their catches, or has just become a nicety. Asking the perspective from someone that started the game of suspended fishing and used GPS to mark all their encounters because they read or watched to do so may have a slightly swayed opinion.
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | if you will go back to the start of this it's been about the transition from paper mapping and triangulation. the "tools" available at the time.
an even more interesting piece is the stuff Ray Kennedy did back in the day floating balloons and such ...
anyone who grabbed a fishing pole when they were 5 and has a passion has probably learned, made transitions and utilized tools as the industry has grown, developed and provided them. why not use em??
observe = to see the unseen | |
| | |
|
Open water has "sweet spots". You will find that on lakes with large amounts of deep water, take Walker Bay on Leech for example, have areas where fish are biters and areas where you are wasting your time. This is true year after year there. I'm not talking about deep water near structure either, but out in the abyss.
Maybe this isn't true on all lakes, but it is undoubtedly true on many.
Marking suspended fish with your GPS, if you are trolling, can also pay off during moonrise and moonset, or other such lunar periods. Just like casting in the shallows, fish suspended react to lunar stuff, and often they seem to stay in relatively small areas even in the deep.
JS
| |
| | |
Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The mud marl transition IS structure.
Before some of you pups (Not Sled or JS) were out of short pants, Jim Cairnes, the McBride Bros, and a few other anglers from the Illinois 'brain trust' figured out the transition lines coupled with other factors. I spent quite a bit of time back in my full time guiding days introducing these guys to N WI waters off the beaten path and on. Jim was a master...one of the best I have ever met at figuring out deep muskies and bass when there were no graphs at all...just flashers.
Jimmy lost a long battle with cancer last winter. I miss that guy.
On many of the lakes up here creature fishing means 'bombing the depths' a good portion of the year, with some definite preferences toward specific structural elements. A deep water largemouth guy would read what's been posted here and say...'yep'.
I still try to hit Pelican when the conditions are right and toss creatures on the soft/hard bottom line in the funnels. After all, the creature was the forerunner to today's big plastics; only difference was size and the fact the jig is on the outside of the lure. The fish are not on the bottom out there...look to the last structural break and fish 3' above that depth.
I've been using my Aqua-Vu Micro to look at the deep transition lines and structural elements I've been fishing for 35 years. I have been very surprised. | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | No going back to the start Sled someone was asking how to go about getting started in deep water fishing, and what our tactics are.
JS I agree with you in the use of icons/waypoints in that situation. I thought I mentioned it early, but maybe I didn’t and thought I did as this isn’t the first suspended fishing thread I have posted info on. When I am talking about talking suspended fish I am talking about smaller waters for the most part. Say under 3000 acres, and for me under 1000 acres is preferred. So when it comes to trollers out in that vast water of say 10, 000 acres it makes sense to lay down some icons. It is not as hard to cover water and find the “sweet spots” on small waters. Sweet spots you don’t need a GPS to get you to fish it again.
Steve what depth are you talking about fishing your creatures in? Also how could Jim be a master at deep water…he didn’t have a GPS to tell him where he needed to be.
I am curious to know how Gelb ever boated big muskies prior to the advent of GPS, and to know if he uses one for marking fish contacts in the open currently.
Icons/waypoints in the open. You catch a fish on the end of a bomb cast, and mark the fish once you have it in the net. Keep in mind you are now off the “spot”. You continue to do this for the year. The following year, or even later that fall you have 10 waypoints/icons scattered throughout a basin that do not relate to each other. You also do not remember if a fish was caught at the end of the waypoint, or if it ate at the boat. You don’t remember the direction you were drifting either, so you don’t know if you were casting to the right or left of the boat going one direction or another. How do you use that information to put you on the “sweet spot” for that outing as you are claiming the GPS will do for you?
Me, I just drift the area as through past experience I have learned the fish are scattered. My memory tells me that, not some chip.
| |
| | |
|
For me dropping icons on marked fish is for short term use only, especially on smaller waters. Go back to them that day, or the next morning.
I don't really use GPS that much, I think open water sweet spots are easy enough to find year after year with just your memories, unless you are talking about several thousand acres of deep water. Sweet spots, at least in my context, are fairly large, but may only be 10-20% of the deep water basin.
JS
| |
| | |
Location: Contrarian Island | Travis, it's easy to lay down an icon where the fish actually hit and not where the boat is...just move the cursor over and drop it down....i do that when working structure and it's simple.. | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 6/21/2012 9:33 AM
I think open water sweet spots are easy enough to find year after year with just your memories
JS
birch tree, old-crappy side-road boat-launch and the cantilevered dock ...
anyone in oneida county want to triangulate that spot?? granted it's a hump ... "hold", but it ties the basin to it.
we were all born with brains that can lay mental icons ... now we just have better tools than they did back in the day.
9:47am. 06.21.12 ... i completely agreed with JS
Edited by jonnysled 6/21/2012 9:48 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 8:19 AM
jonnysled - 6/21/2012 7:59 AM
CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 7:56 AM
as one of the best in the game at the deep water deal
i thought that was you??
Nope and never have claimed so. Seriously if anyone wants to learn the suspended deal and see what is done hire Paul Klein. Not only would you have a great time, but learn what is the “behind the scenes” of the deep water game. Just let me know if you need his contact info.
Though we haven't talked in some time, I used to know Paul quite well, have learned from watching him and cannot tell you how appreciative I am of his support of Operation Muskie. In the day, we'd often run into one another on one of our favorite waters in the north, as it was a mutual friend who told each of us about the spot. The first time I saw Paul on that lake, we were drifting parrallel. He bumped ahead of my dad and my drift with his outboard to hit the hump I was headed for, made three casts off the 10' hump and popped a 4'er. Point is, while we were both out in seemingly open water, Paul and I were both structure fishing those humps, and he made moves off his drift path to fish them. Previously, I had been told that Paul would purposely move his boat away from structure, whenever he got close to it. It was obvious that he used structure to his advantage, at least that day. As an excellent fisherman, how can he not, to some degree?
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/21/2012 11:00 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Reef Hawg - 6/21/2012 10:57 AM
CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 8:19 AM
jonnysled - 6/21/2012 7:59 AM
CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 7:56 AM
as one of the best in the game at the deep water deal
i thought that was you??
Nope and never have claimed so. Seriously if anyone wants to learn the suspended deal and see what is done hire Paul Klein. Not only would you have a great time, but learn what is the “behind the scenes” of the deep water game. Just let me know if you need his contact info.
Though we haven't talked in some time, I used to know Paul quite well, have learned from watching him and cannot tell you how appreciative I am of his support of Operation Muskie. In the day, we'd often run into one another on one of our favorite waters in the north, as it was a mutual friend who told each of us about the spot. The first time I saw Paul on that lake, we were drifting parrallel. He bumped ahead of my dad and my drift with his outboard to hit the hump I was headed for, made three casts off the 10' hump and popped a 4'er. Point is, while we were both out in seemingly open water, Paul and I were both structure fishing those humps, and he made moves off his drift path to fish them. Previously, I had been told that Paul would purposely move his boat away from structure, whenever he got close to it. It was obvious that he used structure to his advantage, at least that day. As an excellent fisherman, how can he not, to some degree?
Jason like I mentioned earlier some lakes you fish based off the structure, and some lakes you don’t. I am willing to bet at the time you guys met and he bumped ahead to that bar it wasn’t because he had a GPS, but rather because he knew it was there from fishing it before and just had a feel for where he was at. I am sure all Paul was running in his boat was the Bottomline graph, and it may not have even been on. Yes ignoring structure would be silly, and Paul nor I ignore it. The question of this thread wasn’t how to fish a 10’ hump, and I also wasn’t saying not to fish them. It was how to move “out there” and catch fish. | |
| | |
Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Travis,
On Pelican, for example, I'm fishing 20-25 and the fish are usually at 18 or so, suspended just below the Perch or White bass depending on year and forage or cruising the line looking for food. Look at the map, the 18' band between 15 and 20 depth line is reasonably consistent around the entire lake heading for the basin, and is pretty narrow and close to the primary and secondary breaks when close to the deepest waters in the puddle. Note also the location of the Mk stamps on the map, and the access to rock bars and weeds in a few kicks of the tail in some areas, but still adjacent by a couple casts to the deepest water in the pond. Bomb casts....
Pelican
Manson... I bass fish there mid summer in 22 to 25 and catch pike and muskies in the process on creatures. Pretty clear there where to toss into the deeps. Not a real good Muskie lake, but one I can fish mufti-species and expect to contact a nice fish reasonably often.
Manson And so on on the lakes where the deeps are that I fish regularly.
I don't have a GPS on the X170T. I can follow the 'road' just by watching my sonar, and remember each small area same way we all remember how to get to work without thinking about it at all. I tried to explain that once and was shouted down by the visor crowd, so I'll leave it at that.
I grew up learning lakes with a flasher. That's the first thing I bought for the X170 this Spring. Sure, a $1500 GPS/Sonar color display would be nice, but I know this water around here pretty well and just don't need one...although the side scan has me looking right now. If I was fishing big water like LOTW or Eagle or Lame Michigan or Erie or Lake Superior, a unit like that is sweet and needed. If you are doing things like some are to get back to where you were before, they are an absolute necessity. For me fishing where I do, not so much. I triangulate by OLD habit, anyhow, and there isn't a lake I fish where I can's see shorelines.
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | sworrall - 6/21/2012 11:20 AM
I don't have a GPS on the X170T. I can follow the 'road' just by watching my sonar, and remember each small area same way we all remember how to get to work without thinking about it at all. I tried to explain that once and was shouted down by the visor crowd, so I'll leave it at that. :)
Exactly what I am getting at! | |
| | |
Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | I'm certain he didn't have a GPS on his rig that day 15 years ago, and neither did we. Point was, we were both altering our drifft to hit known 'spots' vs drifting across the basin or following a breakline, or depth 'band'. Huge difference. GPS isn't typically neccessary for me on home waters during the daylight hours either. While most of my gps viewing comes on lakes where acreage is measured in the thousands or at night, it helps out in the abyss of small ponds, especially now that I only fish some of them once every few years now, vs every couple weeks. Its not as if one needs to have their nose glued to the screen. Point was we find it most useful when fishing seemingly featureless areas or very erratic edges. After a number of fish icons/waypoints(in your head or gps) are laid down in a small area of seemingly nothingness, features surprisingly become apparent.
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/21/2012 12:04 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | CiscoKid - 6/19/2012 8:58 AM
While trying to figure out a suspended pattern on a lake I will admit I will look for obvious structures, and try to tie them together like Sled suggests. However, I also look at what may look to be the really boring stuff. Why? Because that is often where you will find the true suspended fish. Lots of lakes will have true suspendos, and will also have those that relate or loosely relate to structure. The later being those that relate to humps, spines, and out from a breakline a bit. True suspendos are those that won’t be found near any structure, and make up a pretty dang big population on a lot of lakes. Lakes with pelagic fish are lakes that are great for the true suspenders as fish like cisco could care less about structure. Even lakes with perch/suckers will have a good population of true suspended fish but not to the extent of those containing pelagic baitfish. In the case of those lakes mud bottoms can become important. That’s where the bugs live that feed the food chain.
Jason I think we agree on the same thing. Maybe you got hung up on one of my earlier posts where I stated "Structure doesn't mean anything out suspended." I made that statement too matter of factly. My point was you don't HAVE to have structure to catch a suspended fish. Absolutley work structures into your thinking, but don't think you have to have them. Don't think that becuase your lake is a bowl, and has no real humps and points on it that it won't have a suspended fishery. Quite the contrary really. Also do not ignore the non-structure laiden parts of the lake thinking there would be no reason for a musky to be out there.
I make corrections all the time on some lakes to make sure I hit that 30' edge of a hump, but do it without the help of icons and waypoints. I "feel" it out. I also make correction away from some strucutres to ensure I stay deep enough. as from experience of drifting over some blasted structures I found I don't contact fish until I am at "x" depth. In the case of this I will set-up a drift, if possible, to miss that structure from the start so I do not have to make corrections with the trolling motor. | |
| | |
Location: Contrarian Island | can the "best in the game" get better ? i would think so.... adding more tools and gizmos to the arsenal when used to their fullest can help can't they? it's easy to get caught up in thinking the guys like me/cory "need" gps but in fact we don't...we just feel it helps us put more in the boat....people can and do catch piles of fish without gps.. that's not a question....I guess my question/thought here is can it be useful to put more in the boat over open water as it is to us "shallow water" guys..? maybe it is random out over the abyss..maybe it isn't as much as some think...interesting stuff tho...
Edited by BNelson 6/21/2012 1:03 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | CiscoKid - 6/21/2012 12:14 PM
Don't think that becuase your lake is a bowl, and has no real humps and points on it that it won't have a suspended fishery.
Agreed. Personally, thats the most confidence building situation for a suspention bite, oligo or not. Where my experience has shown me average size of true suspended fish to be smaller than structure dwellers, its these situations where I believe the big ones can sometimes best be contacted 'out there'.
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/21/2012 1:10 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Also if you want to learn how to fish deep structure look to Howie Meyer. While Paul specializes more in suspended fish, Howie concentrates more on catching them on/near bottom on deep structure. Both of course cross over. Curious to know if Howie is using GPS yet as I know he use to not to. Does Howie visit the board here anymore as I haven’t seen him in awhile? | |
| | |
Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | BN,
Absolutely I could use a GPS. I have done so on previous rigs. What it did for me was confirm what I believed I knew. Old school isn't always bad or deserving ridicule (which you did quite recently, by the way)...especially if it works. In my case, it does. Some folks don't seem to be able or willing to read the water like that, maybe it isn't as much an acquired skill as something one simply can do easily or not. Some folks can do Algebra in their head. NOT me...
I believe it's an elapsed time subconscious function using visual cues from my sonar screen and surroundings, and some folks can't do that to find a place they drove to in the car twice already. | |
| | |
Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | Its a skill to be able to fish without a GPS and catch fish on big water... and a lot of guys can't. What the GPS has done for fishing is like what the new compound bows, or perimiter weighted golf clubs have done for their sport.... made it easier for regular smucks like me to fish more effectively I can give my waypoints of a lake to someone and tell them to go fish the spots with your unit zoomed to X level and fish 1/2 " off the marks and your casts will be 1/2 over the weeds and half over the break.... darn near a guided trip from my couch!
Is that kind of detail needed for true open water, I doubt it, but it has made for some interesting/entertaining reading.
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | C.Painter - 6/21/2012 2:13 PM
I can give my waypoints of a lake to someone and tell them to go fish the spots with your unit zoomed to X level and fish 1/2 " off the marks and your casts will be 1/2 over the weeds and half over the break.... darn near a guided trip from my couch!
"Ah yes let someone else do all the hard work for you I see."
Please do Cory
better than TV!! better than TV ...
hey, where's mr. musky???
Editor's Note: Took a vacation. Should be back today. | |
| | |
|
GPS is very useful for open water fishing. I'm just to cheap to buy anything more technical then a hand-held!
I'm amazed at what some of the peeps I fish with can do with thier units, GPS and other electronics that is.
Most guys I shake my head at when I see the several thousands of dollars in electronics in the rig, 'cause they can't do much more then turn them on.
Other guys I know get every penny out of the investment.
JS | |
| | |
Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Fight nice....Travis, I'd take him up on the AML trip. I wish I could go, my fanny would be in that seat in a heartbeat. | |
| | |
Posts: 999
| Im here, just watching from the sidelines! Great discussion here! | |
| | |
Posts: 572
Location: Maplewood, MN | Very interesting topics being covered here. I think I am going to give this open water stuff a shot. What could it hurt. | |
| | |
Posts: 69
Location: Pittsburgh | Steve; Curious as to what surprised you? In a quite similar experience what surprised me was the fact that the transition lines that held fish were very narrow but could hold fish right to the surface. | |
| | |
Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The actually structural elements are WAY more obvious when displayed on a camera. I was surprised at what it all looked like, and the tiny difference in average rock diameter that can determine whether fish hold there, or not...right in the middle of a huge rocky area with little depth change, for instance. And, allot more. A Micro makes it all clear. | |
| | |
Posts: 30
| My question: to what extent do baitfish play a role in Muskie suspension? For those with experience on centrarchid (panfish; not pelagic) lakes: is it really worth putting the majority of your fishing effort in open water? I know fish will venture there on occasion, but can you count on fish being present? | |
| | |
Posts: 247
Location: Uxbridge Ontario | BNelson - 6/21/2012 2:00 AM
can the "best in the game" get better ? i would think so.... adding more tools and gizmos to the arsenal when used to their fullest can help can't they? it's easy to get caught up in thinking the guys like me/cory "need" gps but in fact we don't...we just feel it helps us put more in the boat....people can and do catch piles of fish without gps.. that's not a question....I guess my question/thought here is can it be useful to put more in the boat over open water as it is to us "shallow water" guys..? maybe it is random out over the abyss..maybe it isn't as much as some think...interesting stuff tho...
I would have to think that the open water guys, or at least a portion of them that use GPS, would be marking fish and as them come in contact with them. Follows, hits and catches.
As a followup to that, my question is, how close do these waypoint come?
I would have to think that a hot producing area would have a distinctive pattern. I would imagine that muskie would stage or transition the same all the time and not wildly roam around.... But that is the clarity I am looking for out of this. | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | muskyball - 6/23/2012 12:59 AM
My question: to what extent do baitfish play a role in Muskie suspension? For those with experience on centrarchid (panfish; not pelagic) lakes: is it really worth putting the majority of your fishing effort in open water? I know fish will venture there on occasion, but can you count on fish being present?
I would say it is more hit and miss at finding a sucker/perch forage based lake that is a good suspended fishery compared to a pelagic baitfish type of lake. Suckers, perch, bluegills, crappies, and bass all suspended at some point or another, and thus will bring muskies out after them. Having a good sucker base in a lake is just as good as ciscos. I have some non-pelagic baitfish lakes that have good suspended fisheries, and others I just can’t seem to contact one out suspended or contact them with any kind of regularity. The only way to know is to give it a try, and more than just a time or two or a year or two. Sure you may end up wasting a lot of time, or you may just find a pattern on a lake that no one else is tapping into. | |
| | |
Posts: 572
Location: Maplewood, MN | How successful would you say open water fishing has been for you? As far as follows and catching goes, what is a fairly average open water day for you? | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | MuskieFever - 6/26/2012 12:23 AM
How successful would you say open water fishing has been for you? As far as follows and catching goes, what is a fairly average open water day for you?
Successful enough that it is my preferred method on most lakes I fish. If you are doing things right (jerking cranks to get them to kick out, "popping" rubber) you will get very few follows in general although there are some lakes that for whatever reason the fish like to follow on. | |
| | |
Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL | This area, "Deep Water" truly is what many consider the most important area in productive fishing. It separates the men from the boys!
The ability to "map and interpret" a "structure situation", terms rarely understood or used correctly. Are weeds structure? No they or not, how about rocks? Again no they are not, docks, wind, bait fish, and one way out of left field, the moon? No, none are structure, at best some, a weedline or a clean hard spot or a rock pile may be considered a "Break" on structure.
This term "structure, is probably his most popular and most abused term of all the relevant terms used today. Mr. Buck Perry 1st coined the term structure a long time ago but with time comes dilution and confusion. Structure: "the "bottom" of the lake, river or reservoir that is different from the surrounding bottom area".
A structure, or structure situation and being able to distinguish one that has the potential to produce and one that does not is absolutely necessary if the fisherman ever wants to become consistent at catching. Knowing where to cast comes by knowing what exist in the surrounding deep water, not by how the fishermen "feels" about a spot or which way the wind is blowing.
Just read the thread where a guy was taking about getting a bunch of rain and the lake raising up and he not doing so well after the fact. Some were on his case and ribbing him that he should not complain and he needs to lower his expectations, thought that was funny. I probably shouldn't say but my girl and I landed 31 muskies last week, 51" being the biggest and thought we had a slow week, he he. Btw all fish caught at 20' or deeper, and not one suspended.
This suspended thing... Sure it happens, but maybe 10% of a fishing season. 10 or 90% hummm? Just a few thoughts...
Edited by jerryb 6/26/2012 2:42 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | First off, Buck Perry didn't coin the term structure.
2nd, you likely weren't fishing the Gile or Flambeau Flowage if you caught 31 muskies in a week. But I invite you to come up this way and try your spoonplugging in 20+ feet in either of those bodies of water and see how you fare.
I thought Buck Perry was pretty cool till I started reading your posts, you're not doing the man any favors. | |
| | |
Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | jerryb - 6/26/2012 2:36 PM
This suspended thing... Sure it happens, but maybe 10% of a fishing season. 10 or 90% hummm? Just a few thoughts...
Can someone please interpret this sentance for me? | |
| | |
Posts: 321
| Reef Hawg - 6/26/2012 3:05 PM
jerryb - 6/26/2012 2:36 PM
This suspended thing... Sure it happens, but maybe 10% of a fishing season. 10 or 90% hummm? Just a few thoughts...
Can someone please interpret this sentance for me?
Code for Buck Perry is sexy. H | |
| | |
Posts: 23
| Flambeauski - 6/26/2012 2:54 PM
First off, Buck Perry didn't coin the term structure.
2nd, you likely weren't fishing the Gile or Flambeau Flowage if you caught 31 muskies in a week. But I invite you to come up this way and try your spoonplugging in 20+ feet in either of those bodies of water and see how you fare.
I thought Buck Perry was pretty cool till I started reading your posts, you're not doing the man any favors.
Jborst catching 31 muskies in a week and has a differing opinion than you do and you blow up about Buck Perry and say it couldn't be done on your waters. This thread was very informative until this post. Give a guy some credit instead of critizing him. Obviously he caught more fish last week than you did. No wonder I don't post on these forums very often. Everyones a critic.
Congrats on the week of fishing Jborst. Bet it was fun!
PS Buck Perry is cool Flambeauski.
Edited by foulpole18 6/26/2012 8:35 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jerryb - 6/26/2012 2:36 PM
Btw all fish caught at 20' or deeper, and not one suspended.
This suspended thing... Sure it happens, but maybe 10% of a fishing season. 10 or 90% hummm? Just a few thoughts...
That 20' and deeper "structure" fishing, or not structure as you put it, is a tough area for most to fish effectively. My hats off to you on a "slow" week. So please do tell what is your technique for tackling the deep water as that was the question of this thread? This is a serious question, and not one meant to throw darts at you as I am always game top learn.
To claim that only 10% of the muskies a season may be caught suspended...what are the considerations? 10% of your muskies, 10% of mine, or 10% of the total muskies caught in North America?
I know one thing. You can't catch them suspended if you don't try to catch them that way.
| |
| | |
Posts: 684
Location: Sycamore, IL | Jerry,
I see that your from IL...please don't tell me that you caught 31 muskies in our state last week. I'm depressed enough already! Seriously though...it says that you are a Spoonplug Instuctor: where can I take your class to learn more about this trolling technique?
Matt
p.s. This is the best thread posted for quite some time:) | |
| | |
Posts: 636
Location: Bloomington, MN | I really miss the sound and basic functionality of the old flasher units. The sound it produduced actually made one pay attention to what it was indicating below the boat. I probably could of bought and old beat up 16' resort boat for what I had spent on pig tail 6 volt batteries to for my Lowrance/BirdTraps over the years. Those that do not know the sound of a dying battery in a old portable flasher have missed a beautiful, yet horrifying moment in their "modern" angling life! It then became the needless cabin run due battery life dis-belief. 31 muskies in a week is a very good week, but it is possible with Mr. Jerry Borst, the Spoonplugger. He is a good fisherman, and an instructor. People actually work very hard to capture these fish, so unless it was stated to be in an area where trolling is illegal, why the doubt? If I and a friend got 18 in one afternoon out of Pelican Lake, WI in Guth's Bay in 1977 casting Slim Jims...anything is possible. The fish were 45", 34" 31", and a mess between 18"or so and 25"..maybe 26"...it was very busy as I recall! I can actually state I caught 68 muskies that year, 10 were legal, and I released 7. That was pretty good for 1977. I was a 14 year old kid, so I counted what I caught. That was the best summer of my life!
Edited by Clark A 6/27/2012 1:03 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | I do believe Mr. Borst caught 31 fish in a week. I was the guy who posted that an angler fishing the Gile or Flambeau Flowage should be pleased he caught a fish in two days of fishing. 10 fish in a week would be phenomenal on those bodies of water. They have like .01 muskies per acre. And any lure that runs deeper than 10 feet is gone in a hurry.
It would be like me telling Travis that fishing suspended is stupid because I went to LSC or Pewaukee and caught 20 fish in a week in the weeds. It has no relevance to the conversation. | |
| | |
Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL | No surprise to see the back benchers weigh in.... Buck is very sexy!
1st, thanks foulpole, you wouldn't happen to be a Cards fan?And Clark for having a clear head, always enjoy hearing the stories of great days on the water, thanks!
MD 75, be happy to talk with you, just send a pm or email.
Would like to take this into a slightly different direction since the thread seems to have stalled. I think we'll describe one of the deep water structure situations where these "31" fish were located and subsequently caught, don't you just love the doubters, what do they believe?
So what are your thoughts on getting into a school of muskie? What is your strategy to make a big catch each and every time you launch the boat?All game fish school right?The problem for most is they limit there "depth control" by only casting or trolling the shallows. And I get the casting thing, it's fun when it's happening but Casting, jigging and trolling can all be done in deep water, (8'-10' or deeper) quite effectively, providing the fish aren't in the shallows or dormant. If the fisherman places a limit on his depth not only does he place a huge limit on the number of fish he may run into but also on the size.
Here's the way it works, muskies school! However the school will break up or scatter at either the weedline or if we have a shallow weedline (good water color) at the 8'-10' depth or deeper....Not only that but the larger a fish gets, the older he gets the more reluctant he is to move towards the shallows. Its like any aging animal there not as active in there later years. This is gonna be tough for some to swallow, sorry, I didn't make the rules, and there are rules. This is all right out of the book. That's the reason we rarely if ever have seen or experienced a big school of big fish in the shallows, beyond the spawn, cause they hardly ever get to the shallows as a group, (weather related). Not saying never.
Last week we had decent weather conditions, not great but warm fronts beat a cold front. A good chunk of our fish basically came from 3 different spots, all far apart from one another and totally different structure situations, no two are ever the same. Structure: "The bottom of a body of water that is different from the surrounding bottom area".
One in particular is a structure where we've caught good muskies and walleyes in the past so no surprise to find them there once again. Now that you have accepted the fact that muskies school, always love when guys say they "pack like wolves",, what ev, we must also accept that all fish including the muskie school according to "size", the little ones hang with the little ones, the fry with other fry, teenagers with there group and the big or adult fish in that last schooling size, thats the one we're all after. How many different groups are there? Don't know, and don't care. I'll leave that question to the smart fishermen... they like stuff like that.... If they didn't school according to size the small fish would get eaten by the large fish, blah,blah,blah...
So we hit this little known producer and on the 1st pass we hit a good one, shes heavy or it could be fowl hooked, ya never know, it happens... No need to get too excited till we can see her, you ever have a guy in the boat and every fish he hits is a giant, funny. .. So we hit this fish and its on for a short while but shakes off. She had some good weight to her and our blood starts pumping, thinking, "we may have something going". Keep in mind this is a small area, and we know exactly where the fish hit, the total productive area is maybe a hundred yards,,,, out far from wood, weeds, or visible rocks, or the moon,, ha ha..The average muskie fishermen would claim, if he was lucky enough to ever hit this spot, that it was in the "abbis", more on that later.
38' is the deepest water in the area which we checked out later and hit one decent walleye and a couple small fish in 34'. This productive area rises out of the 38' fairly quickly to about 28-30' then goes kind of flat to this 300'+\- ridge which goes from 28' to 26', its clean and hard, with some hangie rock, hangie or hangy, is that a word? The surrounding area is firm but not as clean or hard and not hang y,. We set up again and make another pass from the opposite direction, were trolling and running parallel with this little ridge, we might make a pass at 28' and the next at 26'. We make the second pass at 4-5mph and another one gets the JB 1 spoonplug in her mouth another good one but didn't feel quite as heavy, we land it, a 45", nice fish! The big ones are defiantly moving! The 3rd pass yields nothing but the 4th pass another good one strikes the lure, large head shakes, she comes to the surface and throws the hooks., CRAP!!! I'd guess 50" or better but didn't get a great look at her. A couple more trolling passes were made, with no hits,,, we probably should have jigged it but then again we probably, maybe, could have, spooked em. Hind site.... What ya gonna do? We came back later and took a 24" walleye, one for the grill.
Was out filming with a guy and we hit 9 that day in which 4-5 came off a different spot, no big ones there. So is 31 a lot for a week? How bout 7 between 40"-51" in a day? 96 in 3 weekends? I don't know, put it this way 31 in a week is not only possible but expected if you learn to interpret deep water. When you place your lure or bait at the right depth, move it at the right speed and do so at the right time., that equals a catch or two. Lower your expectations? Not here! Are you thinking Buck is sexy yet?
The point is again interpreting deep "structure" as it says on the Alaska'n license plate, is "the last frontier". Knowing as much about the area being fished is critical to being successful on a more consistent basis, trolling, or casting. Of course were going to do our research on every body of water we go, fish populations, water color, "fishability", etc. Would you fish a lake that doesn't have any fish? Not me. And to add its full of hangs.... And the method of our presentation is dictated, don't think so..... I'll see you in Minn, or Canada, or Kentucky or Michigan, but not in northern Wisconsin.
Another thing that the fisherman should also know is a fish is NEVER caught on accident! The fisherman may not know, is that even possible?where HE is, but be assured the fish know at all times where they are! A fisherman may think they caught one in the "abbis", not true. One of the best pointers ever given to us was, once you catch a fish ask yourself, "how did he get to where we caught him? Knowing, and if you don't know believe it starting now, the only retreat from a ever changing environment is "deep water". A fish doesn't swim about haphazardly, they follow well established routes and it all starts in the deepest water in the area.
I guess we should talk for the last time about suspension, we know there are times when all species suspend some like the trout, salmon and stripper family more than others. The muskies can also at times be found suspended but it's a small percentage of the time, on lakes that have a heavy thermocline (this year, you bet) or when they have become extremely active mostly in the summer. I still say 90/10 from ice out to ice up, where legal of course.
My 4 boys and I have been working deep water since 1995 deepest Muskie caught on purpose a 49" at 52'. I read Buck Perry's book, "Your guide to lunker catches" and I put the blinders on. We then went out and followed it to, almost the letter, ha ha. Throughout this time we've fished muskies about 1/2 of that time from a hundred+ different lakes, rivers and reservoirs and we're now closing in on 1900 boated. No spectacular records have been set and no great individual talents or skills were required but the fact that Buck Perry made some great discoveries that changed the way we all fish today. He wrote them down and we along with thousands of others took his proven step by step methods and followed it to the best of our ability. Now if that somehow turns someone off, Oh well, can't help that.
Good luck!
Edited by jerryb 6/29/2012 8:18 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 23
| Sorry Jerry, I'm a Twins fan. As much as I like the Twins, I'm a bigger fan of Buck Perry. | |
| | |
Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL | Np, have a great (fishing) season! | |
| | |
Posts: 566
Location: Elgin, IL | Just a quick Thanks to MuskieFever for starting this thread, and a HUGE thanks for all of those who contributed.
Some really good info here.
| |
| | |
Posts: 1023
| Just wanna thank you guys for this thread. Up in halliburton Ontario for 2 weeks and went back first evening and raised 3 nice ones but lazy follows. Today I could not raise a fish in what I felt were good conditions cloudy, storm approaching...
Went to same shoreline and positioned boat in 30' of water, near main basin which is 100' deep. I started bombing casts towards the basin, probably landing in 50' depth. Not 5 min in I missed a nice one. Not long after I scooped a fat 46"er with my cisco mag super d in his mouth.
I think maybe the eaters are mostly suspended in this lake as there is a lot of herring here.
I owe that fish and learning experience to this forum.
Thanks guys!
Landry | |
| | |
Posts: 114
Location: Kingston, Ontario | This has been a great thread. Lots to think about. I'm a total newb, started fishing musky last year. I usually fish Lake Ontario, so pretty clear, big water. I've caught one fish so far, trolling a super shad rap. 32". Caught it trolling the weed edge at about 14ft at an inside turn into a weedy flat. I've been targeting similar weed edge patterns trolling without any luck at all, not even a pike. This thread has me wondering if there are a number of active fish out in the deep channels/basin of the area I've been fishing. Here's the topo of the area I fish:
Applying some of the knowledge from this thread, I'm wondering if a trolling pattern at the edge dropping to 70-90ft is the spot to cover, or through the deep parts of the channel? Haven't tried this but might try this next few times out. Any thoughts on how I should break down this area? | |
| | |
Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL | Consigliere,
1st let's not get carried away but your instincts to check other depths are correct but to jump out to those depths is not something you do over night. My recommendation for you is to back up and to learn to walk before you sprint. I know you won't understand but this is what you need to do!
1st you need to order Buck Perry's book: Spoonplugging, Your guide to lunker catches". I make nothing from it. All of the best fishermen in the country have read it, studied it and some refer to it as the Bible of structure fishing. Ask the Lindner family if you don't believe me, this book has made carriers for many fishermen and "some" in privacy will actually admit it.
Get it, "study" it and if you have questions, Ill be happy to help in any way.
Hurry up cause Lake Ontario is high on my list of next lakes, ha ha" | |
| | |
Posts: 114
Location: Kingston, Ontario | Already on the way...with the home study guide 9 part or something. | |
| | |
Posts: 9
| Definitely some good information already posted, but here is my take on fishing deep water. Lakes of 25 feet or less do not stratify, and yes there are a lot of muskies on the bottom of the lake in the deepest water. If you know of any springs, they are a good place to start. Many shallower lakes have grass over the entire bottom, A deep diving crank bait like Hellbenders or Bill Normans, an extra weighted bucktail with in-line blade also works; letting a Bulldawg sink to the bottom or Bondy Baits also work good.
Deeper lakes stratify, and this year with the hot stable weather the thermocline is very defined. In most lakes in northern Wisconsin the thermocline is at about 25 feet. Tony Rizzo wrote a book about 30 years ago titled, The Summer Muskie in which he devotes half the book to fishing suspended fish. If you can find a copy it has a lot of good information, it was my reference book when I started fishing deep water. Tony states in that book that his #1 lure for fishing deep water is the bucktail, and that has been my experience too. Rizzo states in another of his earlier books that he thinks that we are very often fishing under the fish when using deep divers for suspended fish.
While you might start out just fishing the middle of the lake, over time you will find that some areas are better than others. Drop a way point when ever you see a fish. if there are several large pieces of structure that are above the thermocline, half way in between might be a good starting point. Just like Rizzo says in his books, hot calm days are some of the best for suspended fish, and the best time is between 10:00AM and 2:00PM/ Might be different on lakes with a lot of boat traffic, but definitely true in Northern Wisconsin. | |
| | |
Posts: 572
Location: Maplewood, MN | I have always felt that about 90% of the lures in the muskie world are geared toward the top 5ft of the water column. For some reason, I have difficulty with confidence only fishing higher in the column even when I am over deeper water. | |
| | |
Location: Minocqua, WI | Some good info. One thing I didnt see mentioned that I find myself trying more and more is fishing the "holes". think of them as reverse humps if that helps. With a hump you target the edges/shelves and the top of it. With a hole try working the outer edges (subjective based on the lake your fishing) and then reverse your approach and fish the center or deepest spot of the hole the same way you would fish a hump. Hope that makes sense... try it out. Especially when the weed edges and breaks seem devoid of life... It might pay off handsomely.
Also, as for running baits high in deep water, muskies, as with most predators will feed up. Common knowledge, yes, but it is helpful when you are getting started. I have had several fish this year alone strike at or near the boat coming from straight below me in deep water and DEEP water. Just seeing the way they attack coming straight toward the surface is key... I had one do this in 60 - 80fow... not following the bait. Just came shooting up from the abyss. Awesome.
Good luck out there!
Edited by WI Duck Guide 7/17/2012 10:04 AM
| |
| | |
Location: Minocqua, WI | Otherwise, you could take up row trolling... it will help you find the "areas" in open water that consistently hold fish. Then you can head out casting with confidence casting. That is, if you can break the addictive grip of "row troller fever"... | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Consigliere,
I say if you want to determine what deep water will hold the fish in your lake then you just need to cover the deep owater on that lake. Looking at a map and picking out spots for suspendos/deep water fish is not the best way in my opinion. I catch way too many fish in nondescript areas. By looking at a map and only fishing areas that look good on the map you are setting yourself up to mis out on some action. Every lake is different. Keep an open mind, and don't go into starting out in deep water with preconceived notions of where and what you need to do. You will learn that in time on your water, and from there can start cherry picking the best areas from past experience.
Take a look at your map, and check the areas out with your boat if you must. See what the graph tells you, and what the area wildlife tell you. Even if the graph is blank don't think there is nothing there. High riding fish/baitifsh will not mark as they move away from the boat. | |
| | |
Location: Minocqua, WI | 31 fish in a week is definitely possible. I have put 13 in the net 34" to 47" and lost a bunch more in the last 5 days and havent been on the water more than 4-5 hours any given day. But the schooling musky theory... it exists. this week alone i have had 2 seperate occassions on dissimilar lakes where I boated 2 muskies on back to back casts out deep. Coincidently they were a 38" and 40" one day and yesterday it was a 38.75 and a 40 and missed another one 2 casts later at the boat. Where there is one, there are usually more, especially out deep.
Edited by WI Duck Guide 7/18/2012 2:09 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 572
| Does the wind play any role in how deep the muskies are? Are the muskies suspended shallower or deeper with 2 foot waves?
Or is it just best to fish with little or no wind?
Also, I've heard it is best to figure 8 longer when fishing suspended muskies. Any tips for figure 8's for suspended muskies? | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Muskie Bob - 7/19/2012 6:44 AM
Does the wind play any role in how deep the muskies are? Are the muskies suspended shallower or deeper with 2 foot waves?
Or is it just best to fish with little or no wind?
Also, I've heard it is best to figure 8 longer when fishing suspended muskies. Any tips for figure 8's for suspended muskies?
Wind doesn’t matter to me for location of suspended fish in the water column. I will say the windier it gets the less I fish suspended simply due to my boat. Even after filling both livewells and running two drift socks it can drift too fast.
Figure 8’s…Way overrated while fishing suspended. If you work your baits right, and do your triggering moves at the boat (i.e. several rips, death pause) you will convert those that would have any kind of interest in eating. I still do them, but wonder why as I have yet to catch a suspended fish on a figure 8. Others I know also see the same results.
Edited by CiscoKid 7/19/2012 9:10 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | I haven't noticed having to fish differently with wind. The only thing I'm really aware of is that you can still do well on flat calm, sunny days out deep - days that might have you struggling when fishing shallower structure.
I agree with Travis above. Every once in a while I'll have a fish come up and grab a bait boatside. Usually it happens before the 8 even starts though. The suspended fish tend to commit before the bait gets to the boat or not show themselves at all. I always 8 at the end of each cast too but never actually caught one in the 8 when fishing deeper.
Tucker
Edited by curleytail 7/19/2012 9:51 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL | Duck Guide,
Great looking web site. I like the no fish no pay, that's the way all Muskie guides should operate! Also congrats on having a good few days!
Its a good feeling when the fisherman launches the boat with a real expectation of a multiple fish day. That becomes a reality season after season. When the fisherman starts to see and understand how fish move about, the features that they use in there movements and migrations. The fisherman begins spending the majority his time "where" he has the "best" chance to catch a fish,,,, and the wind, what wind? Was it windy today, it wasn't windy in 22', Ha ha.
Bob I'm just messing, at least you have the courage to ask the question. Wind does help defuse the light and if the fish get active they will move some what shallower than they might have without it, it's the same with water color, same results. Dark water, shallow weedline, shallower fish movements. Clear water deep weedline not as shallow fish movements.
The idea that a fish can be caught anywhere, at anytime on anything may be true but not recommended for multi fish days. Catching fish "consistently" means your doing the right things in the right area more often of the time. If the fishermen isn't catching fish consistently they're not. Time to face facts. It's not the wind or the moon, or the weeds, I don't know, pick one there's a thousand distractions keeping the fisherman from doing what he needs to do. There are things that matter and things that don't in the total picture.
While some catch on quickly most do not, self included. Many see the catches, hear the stories and bye a lure..... It doesn't work that way. I could tell you so many success stories its crazy. Most of the best you'll never hear from but Brett, ha ha, Ill toot his horn for just a little. This guy was a Muskie caster, you'll see him in Mania's old Tuffy today. This guy read the book, he studied the book, he asks the right questions and he listens and then he backs it up with work! I talked about him in the "Trolling Help" thread, this guys on fire! He's smart but there's a lot of "smart" fishermen ask our Pres, ha ha.... Maybe it was the road to the boat ramp that makes him so successful. Enough of that, so Brett looks around at these ole spoonpluggers and after doing a little comparing..... Let's just say end of story! His fishing will never be the same again!
I'll be honest it's difficult for some to see the terrain of a body of water in there minds at first and understand how and why the "schools" of fish will swim in certain areas and stay away from others. It takes time like anything else. How long will it take to see the next article in the Muskie mags "Schools of muskies......" lol.
Is that better?
Thanks buddy love you too.
Edited by jerryb 7/19/2012 12:45 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 572
| Jerry, I'm a little confused about your statement regarding wind. I understand some of the movement to shallower water based on the wind. However, I was wondering about the suspended muskies in open water and their depth related to the wind, if any effect. Are you saying muskies related to rocks and other structures will likely move to the weedlines during windy days? Or, does this include suspended muskies too and thus one should not fish open water for suspended muskies on windy days? Sorry to be confused about open water suspended muskies. | |
| | |
Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL | Mr. Bob,
1st let's talk about spending our time where we have the best chance to catch a fish. How often in a given season do muskies suspend? IMO and others, about 10%, maybe. Granted you may not fish from ice out till ice up. So let's give it another 5%. Where do you want to spend your time? Which fish do you want to spend your time chasing?
There's a time to fish suspended and that's been talked about. We've caught our share of suspended fish, as many as 22 in a day. On that particular day most every one at 12'-14' down using a thermocline breakline, some at 20', some at 25', and some way way out off the structure at 30' and if you can believe a couple even came at 40', but the one fish that really opened our eyes was when we decided to cross the lake and happened to leave the lures down, that one hit in 60'+. The thing was not one single Muskie was caught in the "so called abyss" as some refer. The fish caught at 20'-30'+ were all caught off a horizontal suspension, the one caught in 60'+ was caught at the same 12'-14' down directly over the main river channel, a vertical suspension. Again, the fisherman may not know where he is but the fish always know where they are! There are no accidents.
My statement about wind was if I can be so blunt, "don't put so much thought into it"! Learn instead to identify productive bottom features and all those little meaningless distractions will all go by the wayside, trust me!
When we say "if"the fish get active they'll move "some what shallower" than they might have without it", but this is small potatoes because our lure presentation and going through the proper procedures will locate the fish no matter what depth they're at. The wind means very little in the whole picture.
Good luck! | |
| | |
Posts: 165
Location: tHe LaKe Of PrIoR, mN | i googled bucks book cause I think I'm gonna read it! I thought it was funny that one of his quotes reads:
"Fishing success cannot be bought through the latest or hottest new lure. It can not be bought through the latest equipment, or some kind of gadget. Buck says that knowledge is the key to fishing success. "
how true you may have all the tools in your box but what are they worth if you can't or don't know how to use them correctly | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jerryb - 7/22/2012 7:37 AM
Mr. Bob,
1st let's talk about spending our time where we have the best chance to catch a fish. How often in a given season do muskies suspend? IMO and others, about 10%, maybe. Granted you may not fish from ice out till ice up. So let's give it another 5%. Where do you want to spend your time? Which fish do you want to spend your time chasing?
There's a time to fish suspended and that's been talked about. We've caught our share of suspended fish, as many as 22 in a day. On that particular day most every one at 12'-14' down using a thermocline breakline, some at 20', some at 25', and some way way out off the structure at 30' and if you can believe a couple even came at 40', but the one fish that really opened our eyes was when we decided to cross the lake and happened to leave the lures down, that one hit in 60'+. The thing was not one single Muskie was caught in the "so called abyss" as some refer. The fish caught at 20'-30'+ were all caught off a horizontal suspension, the one caught in 60'+ was caught at the same 12'-14' down directly over the main river channel, a vertical suspension. Again, the fisherman may not know where he is but the fish always know where they are! There are no accidents.
Good luck!
Don't get confused in what Jerry is saying about suspended fish as I think obviously he has a different idea on what exactly constitutes a suspended fish. From what he has stated I take it he doesn't consider a fish that is located 10' down over a hump that tops out at 40' (coming up out of 60' of water) a suspended fish. To me that is a suspended fish. One that relates to structure at that. To say fish only suspend 5-10% of the time just means to me he either has a different defintion of what a suspended fish is, doesn't spend a whole lot of time for suspended fish, or fishes lakes that don't have a good suspended fishery. Or perhaps myself and others are just pretty dang lucky to be able to consistently catch fish that only suspend 5-10% of the time!
Fact of the matter is most people don't know how to fish in water that is deeper than 20'. Doesn't matter if you consider it suspended fishing or structure fishing. What matters is gaining the confidence to be "out there" beyond the typical depth most people fish, and gaining knowledge in how to target those fish in the water bodies you fish. For me or anyone else to sit here, look at a map, and tell you right where you are going to catch fish in deep water without having any knowledge of the lake is just throwing darts blindly. My comments about just going out there and drifting to cover water is to get the angler to learn on their own what will work best on their lake.
Edited by CiscoKid 7/23/2012 7:40 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | CiscoKid - 7/23/2012 7:08 AM
jerryb - 7/22/2012 7:37 AM
Mr. Bob,
1st let's talk about spending our time where we have the best chance to catch a fish. How often in a given season do muskies suspend? IMO and others, about 10%, maybe. Granted you may not fish from ice out till ice up. So let's give it another 5%. Where do you want to spend your time? Which fish do you want to spend your time chasing?
There's a time to fish suspended and that's been talked about. We've caught our share of suspended fish, as many as 22 in a day. On that particular day most every one at 12'-14' down using a thermocline breakline, some at 20', some at 25', and some way way out off the structure at 30' and if you can believe a couple even came at 40', but the one fish that really opened our eyes was when we decided to cross the lake and happened to leave the lures down, that one hit in 60'+. The thing was not one single Muskie was caught in the "so called abyss" as some refer. The fish caught at 20'-30'+ were all caught off a horizontal suspension, the one caught in 60'+ was caught at the same 12'-14' down directly over the main river channel, a vertical suspension. Again, the fisherman may not know where he is but the fish always know where they are! There are no accidents.
Good luck!
Don't get confused in what Jerry is saying about suspended fish as I think obviously he has a different idea on what exactly constitutes a suspended fish. From what he has stated I take it he doesn't consider a fish that is located 10' down over a hump that tops out at 40' (coming up out of 60' of water ) a suspended fish. To me that is a suspended fish. One that relates to structure at that. To say fish only suspend 5-10% of the time just means to me he either has a different defintion of what a suspended fish is, doesn't spend a whole lot of time for suspended fish, or fishes lakes that don't have a good suspended fishery. Or perhaps myself and others are just pretty dang lucky to be able to consistently catch fish that only suspend 5-10% of the time!
Fact of the matter is most people don't know how to fish in water that is deeper than 20'. Doesn't matter if you consider it suspended fishing or structure fishing. What matters is gaining the confidence to be "out there" beyond the typical depth most people fish, and gaining knowledge in how to target those fish in the water bodies you fish. For me or anyone else to sit here, look at a map, and tell you right where you are going to catch fish in deep water without having any knowledge of the lake is just throwing darts blindly. My comments about just going out there and drifting to cover water is to get the angler to learn on their own what will work best on their lake.
I was a little confused because I would call about every one of those fish suspended too. A fish relating to the thermocline is not suspended? How far must a fish move horizontally from structure to be suspended? 20 yards, 70 yards, 2 miles? I guess we'll agree to disagree on the terms.
Travis, not trying to disagree but maybe creating a little more discussion. You say that looking at a map and telling somebody where to fish is throwing darts blindly. I understand you mean that you just need to get out there and DO IT, and there are no guarantees, but I wouldn't say making judgements from a map is throwing darts blindly. A lot of my best deep water/suspended fishing spots are near pretty obvious places on a lake map. Out from big structural areas with sharper breaklines, and especially points and turns seem to draw fish, even if they aren't holding right tight to them. I took a trip to Vilas last year where I caught a fish on a deep lake with very, very little structure. Caught it 12 feet down over a slight rise into 70 feet of water between 2 80 foot holes. Coincidence maybe, but maybe not. Either way, I looked at a map and targeted that spot - it resulted in a nice fish.
Again I realize you are getting at every lake is different, and suspended fish can be anywhere. At the same time, there can be defined patterns, and studying a map can shorten the learning curve, especially if fishing a new lake where you might have only a day to spend there. Not enough time to learn the lake, but looking at a map should up your odds. Don't you think?
Tucker
Edited by curleytail 7/23/2012 10:32 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1149
| curleytail - 7/23/2012 10:30 PM
...studying a map can shorten the learning curve, especially if fishing a new lake where you might have only a day to spend there. Not enough time to learn the lake, but looking at a map should up your odds. Don't you think?
Tucker
Ahhhhhh yeah. Use the map to define target areas and/or high percentage spots. Makes more sense then going to lake X and just bombing away. IMO, lots of time wasted in that approach.
Like you said Tucker, you targeted the area you caught that fish on the map... You may have caught a fish at some point drifting 1/2 mile across the basin too which I've admittedly done. But when coming up on spots such as the hump you mentioned Tucker, you have to expect your odds to increase a bit.
Go back to the beginning of the thread where Sled talks about mapping and the article from JLong that Travis linked is definitely worth the read. Lots of valuable info in this thread if you can filter out much of the run around.
Edited by MartinTD 7/24/2012 7:10 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Tucker yes I agree that absolutely you can pick out some spots to catch fish in deep water by looking at a map. However just like shallow water fishing there are lots of great spots that a map does not show you, and the only way you find them is by exploring. Often times it’s the spots that you don’t pick out on a map that end up being the goldmines. I am not here to tell people how to read a map. I am here to try and help people connect with fish in deep water. I am not going to say what all the books, magazines, and videos tell you and that is the obvious stuff. However that obvious stuff is only half the story, and is not always the most important part of solving the puzzle.
Again if you always fish spots you pick out on a map and have success of course you will think that is the way to go. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. I say fish once in a while with no pre-conceived notions in your head, and you may just be surprised at what you find and where you find it. From there you can start putting the pieces together.
We are not talking deep water fishing 301 here. We are talking deep water fishing 101 for those that have no clue how to tackle it.
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i like the 301 ... it puts big fish in the bag almost with reliability. the icon method is almost like cheating ... :0) | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 7/24/2012 7:45 AM
i like the 301 ... it puts big fish in the bag almost with reliability. the icon method is almost like cheating ... :0)
For someone starting out 301 is not the way to go. Some can handle it, and some cannot. You have to learn to walk before you can run. Also the icon/map deal is just fine for structure related suspended fish. However there is a good population of fish in many lakes that are true "abyss" fish that are caught away from any structure. Again if you never fish the abyss you'll never know what is there.
Regardless this thread has 101, 201, and 301 info. Good for a multitude of readers.
Edited note: Removed cheap shot at Sled
Edited by CiscoKid 7/24/2012 8:23 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | travis ... and here i thought i was going to play nice.
how many fish did you put in the net during opener? how many leading up to the hot-water? how many over 43"??
mapping is easy. i did all the icon mapping on my electronics, when i fish with the others (whom you know), they map just like i do and just like we are explaining in this thread. it is the simple use of the electronics we choose to use and the results are just what they are. the system is tried, true and works with great reliability.
if you come to the chain sometime, jump in the boat with me and i'll show you some deep water waypoint mapping and how to do it yourself. it takes some time, but as i "learned" from a couple folks and chose to employ. sometimes mapping for 60-80% of the time and fishing 20-30% you can be more accurate and score more consistently.
it works ...
Edited by jonnysled 7/24/2012 8:01 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | jonnysled - 7/24/2012 8:00 AM
it works ...
Never said it didn't. | |
| | |
Location: Contrarian Island | when does 401 start? we might not have as many contributors then tho...d'oh! | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | that's when the dive suits and scuba come in smellie ...
edit: ... as a kid who grew up living on a lake we used to have to teach a lot of people how to water ski. our system changed (cuz of convenience) and we started to just teach people how to start deep-water slalom instead of wasting time on dropping etc... it was more efficient.
why not start with the answer??
Edited by jonnysled 7/24/2012 8:22 AM
| |
| | |
Location: Contrarian Island | like the guy in the Badfish video! watch closely...you'll see em... no wonder that sand grass fishing is so easy for those guys...JK...Sled we need Aqua Man on our team...lol.
Edited by BNelson 7/24/2012 8:23 AM
| |
| | |
| I'm a total newbie, so take this with a grain of salt...but I'm confused. I fish Lake Champlain in Northern VT and New York. 15 miles wide, 110 miles long, there are both extensive shallow areas and deep--the biggest part of the lake has very extensive areas that are close to 400 feet deep with some large shallower bays, while the northern quarter and southern quarter are generally fairly shallow, weedier, etc. It's not quite a great lake, but it's pretty darn big, too big to cover it all. There are loads and loads of underwater humps and islands at all depths, as well as points, breaks, bays, river deltas, big wind to create currents, you name it. There are a few (very few) muskies here, but I mainly fish for pike. The lake has traditionally been both a warm and cold water fishery--bass and pike were always assumed to relate to the perch in shallower water, and the salmon and lakers to smelt in the abyss. Alewives were introduced some years ago, and many people think they are changing the habits of the bass at least, and probably the salmon and lakers as well. Due to both proximity and water temp, in summer I mainly fish the big lake.
Anyway, back on point, I've been catching too many small pike for my liking and have been looking for ways to up the size of the fish I'm catching, I want to to catch a 45 incher, I know they are there...and find myself turning to a lot of musky info, something new for me. I'm upping the size of tackle, etc, but also fishing a little deeper at times and/or more strategically. A couple questions regarding this topic:
Do you guys who fish suspended fish use the baitfish schools to judge a depth where you should fish in open water? The salmon/laker guys all troll a variety of depths and then set most of their riggers to the depth they are seeing schools of baitfish, which is often well below the thermocline. For instance, right now most of the salmon are being caught 40' down where many of these bait balls are, but the first major thermocline is only about 15 feet down. However, I would not have thought to include an ambush predator like an esox in with fish targeting pelagic baitfish over 200 or even 300+ feet of water--I would think that any fish in truly deep water would be in transit between shallower feeding areas, and as such targeting deep schools of forage fish is at least to a degree not the most productive use of time?
In a huge lake like I'm talking about, I assume even the people who fish suspended fish are still going to concentrate their efforts in smaller areas (say a bay, rather than the big/deep lake) where a fish might have multiple ambush areas, cover, deep water, access to spawning areas, etc, etc? I'm sure there are fish in the open water in these areas, but it is still a "travel route" or at least in ralation to the nearby cover where they might feed more actively, right? Or do these fish routinely travel really long distances, i.e. move from one bay and go 5 or 15 or more miles up the lake to another area?
I guess what I'm asking, is whether I should be thinking about each bay or self-contained area that has all of the food/cover/reproduction/deep water factors as a "separate" lake, or whether it really pays to spend a lot of time (a LOT of time!) to cover the broad lake areas in between? If the broad lake is indeed much less productive by a wide margin, then of course it makes it much easier to focus on more productive areas.
Another questions is, does the abyss in a big lake like that form a BARRIER to fish movement, i.e. is it effectively dead water that would to a degree prevent fish from moving between areas? If so, would it be better to focus on areas that do not have such vast areas of abyss? Or is it still worth targeting some of the shallower areas within the big abyss (especially since it's much cooler water in summer...we just hit surface temps of 70 a week or two ago)??
Thanks for any insight anyone has, and hope this isn't off topic.
| |
| | |
Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | CiscoKid - 7/24/2012 7:39 AM
Tucker yes I agree that absolutely you can pick out some spots to catch fish in deep water by looking at a map. However just like shallow water fishing there are lots of great spots that a map does not show you, and the only way you find them is by exploring. Often times it’s the spots that you don’t pick out on a map that end up being the goldmines. I am not here to tell people how to read a map. I am here to try and help people connect with fish in deep water. I am not going to say what all the books, magazines, and videos tell you and that is the obvious stuff. However that obvious stuff is only half the story, and is not always the most important part of solving the puzzle.
Again if you always fish spots you pick out on a map and have success of course you will think that is the way to go. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. I say fish once in a while with no pre-conceived notions in your head, and you may just be surprised at what you find and where you find it. From there you can start putting the pieces together.
We are not talking deep water fishing 301 here. We are talking deep water fishing 101 for those that have no clue how to tackle it.
I fish a lot of the other stuff that isn't as obvious too, but some of MY most consistent spots are the fairly obvious spots. Your mileage may vary.
You say some of the spots that aren't on a map are the best ones, and you just have to cover water to find them. I agree with that too. When you are out just covering water, is there anything you look for? Anything that makes you get excited when you find it? Say a deep patch of weeds growing in 22 feet of water that isnt on the map and nobody else fishes or a 18 foot hump the size of your living room surrounded by acres of 26 feet of water?
Do finding things like this send up a flag for you, or are some of your best spots just because, and it's hard to put your finger on why.
Maybe I over analyize, but I feel a lot better if I can understand the 'why.' If I get that, I might be able to replicate it on a different spot, or a different lake. It should also help me eliminate some water (at least initially) when on a trip or trying to learn a new lake. I know fish can and do suspend out in the middle of nowhere, with no ryme or reason. BUT, I still have to believe most of the time there's an answer to why that fish was there. Was it related to nearby structure, was there a bottom change below it? Maybe it's that I don't have 100% confidence in just fishing plain looking flats or basins. I do it some (maybe not enough), but my ROI still seems a little better trying to loosely target 'something.' I might not cast to structure but I am probably related to it. I might be fishing the basin, but I'm probably trying to fish a bottom transition, etc.
I've had success out in deeper water with fish I would consider suspended, but I feel like I still have a lot to learn. The basin on a 3,000+ acre lake is intimidating to me, but I still feel like there's a way to rule out some water and focus on higher percentage spots within the basin. My thoughts are structure or bottom content transitions HAVE to be higher percentage areas, even though they might not be obvious.
Tucker | |
| | |
| Jerryb, am I the kid you're talking about? I'm not an old man as some are, but the last person to call me a kid meant it as a put down. I'm sure you wouldn't talk to someone you don't even know in that manner so I'll chalk it up to losing the correct tone in writing. It's the lake I fish, why get off it? Just because it's hard to fish? That's the beauty of it, and thats the point as far as im concerned. If anyone has insight I'm all ears. | |
| | |
Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Let's stay on topic, please. Great discussion that doesn't need to turn into a train wreck argument. | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Confused first off I can’t help too much in the way of finding fish on a very large lake. I intentionally target waters under 2000 acres because for one I can only cast where I am located, and two they are much easier to breakdown when it comes to finding fish deep. The second is because of #1. Because I don’t target huge waters I am not going to start speculating on how best you should target those fish “out there”. I think JSkarie commented earlier in this thread on what he does. Also Pike are a bit different than muskies in that they prefer much cooler water. If all you are doing is catching “snakes” you need to probably get much, much deeper than you are currently fishing. Lots of guys that target really big pike are known to vertical jig near the thermocline in 40+ feet of water.
Baitfish. Yes I use the depth the baitfish are at on my graph as an indication of where I may need to be at with my baits. If I am consistently marking bait 30’ down and nothing higher I will usually go to a countdown bait like a countdown crank, a big joe, or a hardhead. If I am still not contacting anything I will change my train of thought, and run my baits high. Why? Because if there are active fish that is where they will be a lot of times. Also because I am banking on there being some high riding baitfish that you will not mark on your graph due to them constantly moving away from the boat.
If I am not marking any baitfish on a lake I normally do than I know I better be keeping my baits high! If I mark bait 15’ down I run standard cranks and such as they typically don’t dive much deeper than 10’ on a cast. If the bait is 10’ or shallower I go to shallow running stuff to keep me in the top 5’ of the column. I usually don’t want to be working my baits deeper than I am marking the bait, but will start going deeper if the keeping the baits above the bait don’t work. I think Sled asked earlier in this thread what I use my graph for…this is it. I don’t use it to find the bait per say to cast like structure (still cracks me up), but rather use it to gauge where I should probably be working my baits. Yes I also use it to see what the bottom contour is doing for future reference.
As far as depth of water, and whether it pays to target the great expanses in a large lake. The muskies aren’t afraid to swim over deep water. If there is food there they will be out there. If trolling is legal, and I was on a large lake as described, you can bet I would be out there trying to connect. However I am not foolish, and if I didn’t contact fish after several trips I would start targeting smaller confined areas to try and put the pieces together.
Tucker, what do I look for when I am drifting? Lots of little things. I don’t usually look for any kind of weeds as if I am doing true suspended fishing I am in too deep of water for weeds to be growing in. Besides if I wanted to fish weeds I would be up shallower. Not every fish, or baitfish, has to relate to weeds. In the true basin dwellers small hard bottom areas in a basin can be good, and likewise a small soft bottom area that is surrounded by hard bottom. Springs can be a gold mine, but are often very hard to find. Narrow “spines” that may only be 1-2’ shallower in deep water get my goat especially if they are nowhere near any structure and the only way to find them is by being “out there”. In structure related suspended fishing I look for the deeper humps others ignore that top out in the 20-30’ area surrounded by deeper water. Lots of those are not located on any maps, and are even missed on some of the mapping chips.
While finding some little things while out there can be important, there is also a lot of productive water that is flat out ugly looking on the graph or map. The true basin and deep flat fishing scenario. The fish are out there in these areas. Perch and cisco are two good reasons they are in these areas as that is often what I find for baitfish. One other little thing I think a lot of guys don’t pay attention to, or don’t experience is phytoplankton. You probably don’t see it if you fish shallower water or structure out in deep water. You also really don’t see it during the day except early in the morning. The “rise” is something to experience as it gets dark and you are in deep water. On some lakes it is the key to fishing suspended. Find areas at night that have the heaviest concentrations of it and those are usually the best areas to fish during the night. Keep those areas in mind for the daytime as well though as they also make great areas to target at that time as well. I think I have a picture of it I can post for those that haven’t seen it, and if I can find it I will post it.
We as anglers would like to believe fish have to locate to structure as it makes fishing for them easier. In all reality fish don’t need structure at all.
Some lakes the true open water is useless and you need to be fishing related to structure. Other lakes the featureless open water can be better than the fishing suspended just off of structure. The only way you find this type of information out is by going out there and fishing it all through several days and years, or by getting info from other anglers. Good luck finding the anglers to give you info on the true open water stuff though as indicated by this thread very few do it or believe in it.
| |
| | |
Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | Lots of guys fishing suspended in Champlain, they just aren't targeting esox. Find out if those guys are getting bite offs or catching any esox, chances are the trollers out there have a certain time period or conditions when they are getting some accidental esox, adjust your schedule and tactics accordingly.
And watch out for Chompy.
| |
| | |
| You mean "Champy"? I'll make sure and watch out for him!
Thanks guys, that's really helpful. | |
| | |
Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | Sorry, I'm just a backwards Northerner.
| |
| | |
| Backwards Northerner...that makes two of us! Nice to meet you!
I just looked, and Champlain is almost 315,000 acres. Quite a difference.
For what it's worth I actually managed to pose my question to one of the state fisheries biologists--who happens to be an avid pike and musky fisherman originally from most of your neck of the woods--and he basically said that although the big guys could become essentially "dwellers of the abyss" targeting pelagic baitfish, that he thought the highest % places to look for them would be deep water directly adjacent to larger expanses of shallower, weedy water--that playing the odds alone they seem to like to stay somewhat related to the shallower areas. He thought it would be a relative waste of time to target the big deep-water areas (say over 100 feet deep) specifically, and that also for this reason mid-lake humps, islands, etc that were relatively isolated and surrounded completely by large very deep areas were not high% places to find a big fish. He also said something to the effect of "on the other hand, if you do find one chances are no one else has cast to that fish a zillion times so it may be a good fish to target". | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Better late than never, nut here is the "rise" pic I mentioned in my last post. Thought I had a better picture of the rise itself, but here is a picture of the rise that is complete and later into the night. Just imagine the 10' thick cloud at the surface coming up through the water column. Looks a lot like a huge school of baitfish, but is really phytoplankton. This area was good the entire week (day and night), and coincidently had the thickest phytoplankton at night.
Note the difference in the two sides of the graph, and that is due to using duel transducers with different frequencies. I also turned the gain down on the one so as to see what was there other than the phytoplankton. On the right side I left the gain up to know where the concentrations of plankton were.
Edited by CiscoKid 8/1/2012 9:48 PM
(Bottom Rising (Medium).jpg)
Attachments
----------------
Bottom Rising (Medium).jpg (29KB - 274 downloads)
| |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Perhaps I have taken some liberties in my interpretation of this quote, or maybe not. Only way of truly knowing is to have Tom elaborate on it. Until then I found this excerpt from Tom Gelb’s new book in the chapter about suspended fishing interesting and pertinent to this conversation. For those that haven’t read it yet:
"There are areas in a lake that I call "special locations." These are areas that never appear to have any recognizable characteristics or food chain inhabitants. But at specific and usually repeatable times over the years, they will be very productive. The only way to discover any of these areas of the lake, and where the zone is located throughout the seasons, is to spend lots of intelligent time on the water. I know of no shortcut to this."
Tom Gelb in "Musky Strategy"
| |
| | |
Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | Intelligent time on the water, eh?
Guess I better stick to the weed edges or spoonplugging. | |
| | |
| I have been following this discussion on fishing open water and It got me thinking about the suspended fish that I have seen on my locater in the past. So I went out to my favorite musky lake and did some scouting out in the deeper areas of one of the bays.
No reefs no points no break lines just flat mud bottom in 20 + feet of water. I found what I think are white fish scattered from+20' to 10' down. Thought they my be walleyes but could not catch any. Surface Water temp was 75 deg. So it can't be Cisco. Maybe small mouth bass. Don't know. The arches on my graph showed there where nice sized fish. Every once in a while 13' down I would see very large red arches on my color graph. I trolled a 13" bait down to about 12' after a bit I neted a mid 40" class musky. I was a 1/2 mile away from any struckshure. Wish I know what them muskys where feeding on out in the middle of the bay. Thanks for all the info that you guys share with everyone!
Dan. | |
| | |
Posts: 26
| I suppose its a lil late to throw in my 2 cents? But when i'm fishing 20ft-25ft I love my bulldawgs, but i usually have 2 or 3 friends in the boat so we try to each work a different depth, i usually favor the 10ft.-12ft. Depth and they work with jakes and grandmas to fill in the gaps and we see where they're biting, and YES find the schools of baitfish and work over the top or below them cause musky's love to attack from below, so if you hang the bait about a foot below, the musky will definatly see it and they'll pick off the "straggler" but i mean as we come into the fall season its all about deep fishing! So keep workin em it'll start to come to ya! When i started i couldnt do any deep fishing either but now i'm better deep then workin weed beds in 5ft-8ft good luck and happy fishing! | |
| |
|
