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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | If the format were roughly the same and the trail locations and schedule were identical, would you fish the MMTT if it were reborn?
Metro in June, Vermilion in July, Mille Lacs in August, Cass/Leech in September and Lake Minnetonka for the Championship in October
CPR format
50 boat max
$500/boat
$10K for first
Pays top 10
*Free dinner and raffle on Saturday night!
I realize this should be in Tournament Forum, but it wouldn't allow me to create a poll.
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| Yep. |
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Posts: 432
Location: mpls | Hell yes!!!
I wish Paul was still running these tourneys. I know that participation slumped near the end, but that was probably due to the economy.
Bring it back Paul!
Joe |
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Posts: 315
| Sign me up!!!!
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Posts: 101
Location: mn | Yes sir. |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Sooooooooooo,oooooo, Whoooooo, Are all the dork wads that voted no ?????
Are these just guys that are anti-tournament,...Or guys that have actually fished the Hartman Trail before ??
This poll seems skewed,.. ..Something just doesn't feel right about it.
The MMTT was a well run and really competitive trail with some of the the best sticks on the planet ,competing on the some of the TOP Lakes in the World.
Soooo, why say you don't want something like this Back ????
You guys that voted NO,.......What are your reasons ???
Just curious.
Jerome |
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Posts: 540
Location: MN | Joe and I would be down, but we're going to birddog the &@$! Out of Andy and Ben! We actually talk about this all the time. It would be sweet to fish a Minnesota based trail somebody set it up and we'll fish it! |
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Posts: 50
Location: Duluth | Get it going Dude I would donate my money to you guys a few times a year... |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | Top H2O - 4/19/2012 9:12 PM
This poll seems skewed...Something just doesn't feel right about it.
You guys that voted NO...What are your reasons ???
Jerome
I agree. We've heard plenty from the positive half of the field, so I'd be interested to hear from the other half and why they voted no. Payout too low? Already committed to too many tourneys? Don't have enough vacation time? Not a tournament guy? Scared you might have to touch a 30 lber? ;-)
Edited by Hammskie 4/20/2012 2:38 PM
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Posts: 321
| If you want all yes's, just start a poll with only that option. H |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | Homer - 4/20/2012 3:02 PM
If you want all yes's, just start a poll with only that option. H
I want justification from both sides. It's called research.
Edited by Hammskie 4/20/2012 3:22 PM
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Ya Homer,....Research.
Why all of the no votes??? reasons for the negativity would help anyone who might want to promote such a venue,....Don't you think.??
As a businessman, I REALLY want to know about any negative experiences or problems so I can make the necessary adjustments to keep you as a customer or draw more customers.
So,.... Why are you no voters voting NO?? Don't be shy, ....You must have a reason ,or 2.
Jerome |
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Posts: 670
Location: Otsego, MN | Yes for sure. Best run, not to expensive, competitive, and the best lakes you can fish on any trail in the world.
Filling 50 boats would not be an issue, you would probably have a waiting list.
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Posts: 2346
Location: Chisholm, MN | I would like to try it but I wouldn't want to start out on the whole trail. Can you just fish one or two? |
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Posts: 93
| Yes, I would be very interested in this |
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Posts: 255
| Yes that would be a blast!!!! |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Still no reason from you pessimist's
Just wondering why some of you people voted no.
Do any of you no voters have any Ball's to expound on your negative votes??
Remember, this poll is meant for research, and learning how a trail can become better for everyone. |
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Posts: 133
Location: Duluth, MN | Top H2O - 4/22/2012 7:00 PM
Still no reason from you pessimist's
Just wondering why some of you people voted no.
Do any of you no voters have any Ball's to expound on your negative votes??
Remember, this poll is meant for research, and learning how a trail can become better for everyone.
Here is the first reason people aren't responding to their no vote. Who wants to be called a dork wad.
Second reason is your just wondering why....... would be enough without throwing in your having any ball's comment.
I have fished the MMTT and would like to see it come back.
Since the Cass Lake tournament was cancelled last year my son and I fish a tournament with a different circuit. At the rules meeting it was like a big party because everyone else had fished other tournaments and knew what was going on. My son was very dissapointed because he couldn't hear what was going on and I wasn't very happy because I wanted to know if there was any rule changes, etc. I told them about it and will not fish that circuit again.
I will be fishing the PMTT this year with my son. I have met alot of great people and learned alot through tournament fishing but how do you think people that haven't fished tournaments that are thinking about signing up see things when they read those comments from certain tournament fisherman and how will that help a curcuit.
Let Hammskie run his poll.
Edited by yooper 4/23/2012 5:16 AM
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Posts: 670
Location: Otsego, MN | All the no answers probably think muskies eat all there wallyes, and must hate muskies.
Or maybe they live in Florida and it's to far away |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Sorry to any one on here that I offended with my term "dork wads",............... Didn't think to much before posting...My bad.
But,...... my words of not having any balls was meant to coax some of the negative voters into giving some reasons for their vote.
I didn't do to well in my last "sensitivity training" course,... and they suggested that I take that course over again. Maybe I will.
Jerome |
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Posts: 81
| I think this would be better:
75 boats
$1000 entry
$35,000 first place
events in several states and Canada
No place two years in a row
Just my opinion.
Dewey |
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Posts: 321
| Top H2O - 4/23/2012 8:30 PM
Sorry to any one on here that I offended with my term "dork wads",............... Didn't think to much before posting...My bad.
But,...... my words of not having any balls was meant to coax some of the negative voters into giving some reasons for their vote.
I didn't do to well in my last "sensitivity training" course,... and they suggested that I take that course over again. Maybe I will.
Jerome[/QUOTE
It was an interest question of would you fish it or not, a no answer is not an attack on the tournament and nobody owes an explanation of why they won't fish it. Be thankful they took the time to answer your poll so you could guage interest. H |
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Posts: 540
Location: MN | MuskyDew - 4/24/2012 9:09 AM
I think this would be better:
75 boats
$1000 entry
$35,000 first place
events in several states and Canada
No place two years in a row
Just my opinion.
Dewey
At a $1000 bucks you'd putting it out of reach of most Muskie fisherman myself included. |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | There it is. The angler suggesting something different, rather than simply replying no. Thanks Dewey. |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | Tim Schmitz - 4/24/2012 10:14 AM
At a $1000 bucks you'd putting it out of reach of most Muskie fisherman myself included.
Tim, good point. Do you think $800/boat would be too much? |
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Posts: 321
| You ask yes/no questions and then complain you get yes/no answers. How about," I realize you feel 1000 is too much, is there a price you feel would work better?" |
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Posts: 540
Location: MN | Hammskie - 4/24/2012 1:25 PM
Tim Schmitz - 4/24/2012 10:14 AM
At a $1000 bucks you'd putting it out of reach of most Muskie fisherman myself included.
Tim, good point. Do you think $800/boat would be too much?
I think $750 sounds better but the extra $50 wouldnt keep me away either. I also think if you Limit the field to 75 boats and you'll have to turn guys away. I say run a 100 boat field and call it good. Who wouldn't want a shot at fishing the best Minnesota has to offer for some serious ca$h? |
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Posts: 81
| With the suggestion of 75 boats, I was hoping for a sizeable 1st place payout. Winning one would keep you fishing all year and keeping it under 100 would allow for lakes like Bimidji . Once you get 100 or more, you cut off some smaller, quality fisheries.
I also agree that $1000 may be out of reach for some but keep in mind that alot of the expense is in travel and board. Thats why I started staying at campgrounds this year, saves money and is alot more fun that hotels.
For me, I just want a quality tournament series that puts me on quality water around Musky country.
Edited by MuskyDew 4/24/2012 2:23 PM
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Posts: 7056
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | I said no because:
a. i had to vote or couldnt read the thread.
b. i dont fish tournaments
c. i dont fish in mn because....because I never have.
d. uh....i like being called names?
e. I dont have an e. |
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Posts: 540
Location: MN | Slamr - 4/24/2012 3:08 PM
I said no because:
a. i had to vote or couldnt read the thread.
b. i dont fish tournaments
c. i dont fish in mn because....because I never have.
d. uh....i like being called names?
e. I dont have an e.
E. if you fished tournaments nobody would be around to moderate the forums :) |
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Posts: 7056
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Tim Schmitz - 4/24/2012 3:23 PM
Slamr - 4/24/2012 3:08 PM
E. if you fished tournaments nobody would be around to moderate the forums :)
There have been like 4 or 5 days in the last however many years of M1st where we're all out of pc coverage...we do NOT announce this. Though it might be fun to see how quickly. |
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Posts: 32902
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I wouldn't fish it because if it WAS the MMTT, I'd have to work. Paul still runs the Metro fund raiser event.
A new circuit, I might fish a couple. I'd say skip the dinner and raffle, expensive and sucks quite a bit of money out of the payout. If you don't take it out of the payout, it's pretty costly to foot the bill, which is why Paul stopped offering it at the end.
'Pays top ten' doesn't mean much. How would the payout break down with a full field? |
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | The reason you are getting so many "NO" is because of the way the question was asked. You should have asked. "If you fished the MMTT before would you fish it again"? That would have given you an idea of the interest in this. This may have been implied, but was way to open to interruption. Many people on this board just don't fish tournaments or if they do they are too far from Minnesota to want to do the MMTT. These people will vote "NO", not because they think the tournament is a bad idea, but it's out of their range or they don't fish tournaments. I voted "NO" for this reason. You need to rephrase the question. Doug Johnson
Edited by dougj 4/24/2012 6:17 PM
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Posts: 670
Location: Otsego, MN | I fished the MMTT and loved it. I think $500 is just right, but I would like to see the field expanded from 50 boats to 75. I think there were some tournaments prior to the years it was capped at 50 boats that had fields this size. I lile the idea Steve through out about not having a dinner and other little expenses. If you want higher payouts to the winners, maybe only pay out the top 5 places instead of 10? |
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Posts: 280
Location: Pewaukee WI | No, The day I see Tom Gelb or Dick Pearson fishing tournaments is when I'll start |
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Posts: 133
Location: Duluth, MN | Take a look at the history of muskie tournaments in the past 10 years. Having fished the MMTT, PMTT, MAC, Pro-Mac and other tournaments what is the largest field of fisherman that have fished a tournament. The most that I can remember is 92 in a PMTT event. When the entry fee got up $700.00 the bottom falls out.
I always said Paul Hartman had things figured out when the MMTT limited the field to 50 boats at $500.00 a tournament and when a trail team signed up they would bump out any single tournament team entry. This got everyone to commit if they wanted to fish and knew if they didn't they wouldn't get in. Some people want bigger payouts, less overhead,more boats allowed. It just isn't going happen.
The bottom line is the MMTT had a great 50 boat following and other things contributed to the lose of the MMTT.
I beleive if Paul brought it back at 50 boats it would be successfull.
Edited by yooper 4/25/2012 1:10 AM
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Posts: 321
| dougj - 4/24/2012 6:15 PM
The reason you are getting so many "NO" is because of the way the question was asked. You should have asked. "If you fished the MMTT before would you fish it again"? That would have given you an idea of the interest in this. This may have been implied, but was way to open to interruption. Many people on this board just don't fish tournaments or if they do they are too far from Minnesota to want to do the MMTT. These people will vote "NO", not because they think the tournament is a bad idea, but it's out of their range or they don't fish tournaments. I voted "NO" for this reason. You need to rephrase the question. Doug Johnson
Good point, brought this up earlier in the thread but received a less than professional response. I agree with you Doug. H |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | dougj - 4/24/2012 6:15 PM
Many people on this board just don't fish tournaments...
Exactly. Yet nearly 50 "forum folk" voted "Yes" on this poll. (that's 1/2 the field, given the previous format listed at the top of the thread). Respectable data.
Thanks to everyone for their input/feedback/discussion on this poll.
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Posts: 32902
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Pays top ten' doesn't mean much. How would the payout break down with a full field? |
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Posts: 81
| Try this:
75 teams = full field
80% payback
$750.00 entry fee per team
Based on full field, purse = 45,000
1st = 55% or $25,000 guaranteed
2nd = 10% or $4,500
3rd = 8.5% or $3,800
4th = 6.5% or $2,900
5th = 5% or 2,250
6th = 4% or $1,800
7th = 3.5% or $1,575
8th = 3% or $1,350
9th = 2.5% or $1,125
10th = 2% or $900
Now 1st is alway 25K so a smaller field means fewer get paid or they get paid less......
HOWEVER.....
A 75 boat field, on top lakes, with good CPR rules, and TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND GUARANTEED, will always be a full field and most likly with the same 75 trail teams in all events.
What do you think?
Dewey |
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| Yes, yes and H3LL yes. Part of me believes: "If it ain't broke..." I loved everything about Paul's trail, including dinner Saturday. It was part of the "feel" we all loved! Big money is great but it will limit the field over multiple events. Leave the big money to single events(which could be on the same trail, possibly even rotate which event)
As far as payouts go: My biggest complaint has always been the "top heavy" nature of most systems. I understand the big first prize money gets names on the sign up sheet, but it also often rewards "luck." Tournament fishing is like poker; any one can go on a hot streak or catch a lucky break and win, but the best players are on the leaderboard consistantly. I'd like a better breakdown with more money for the top 10. I never liked a guaranteed payout, unless it's partially guaranteed by a sponsor. I would hate to see it end up being a "winner take all" situation.
Full disclosure: I am a tournament junkie. You had me at MMTT!
And Tim...I can handle a little birddog action on the water but, if Buzzies is catering, stay outta my way in the buffet line.
G-rome...settle down buddy! Only a few more weeks and you can take your frustrations out on some Big V muskies. We all know you get a little touchy after a long off season. |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | sworrall - 4/25/2012 1:15 PM
'Pays top ten' doesn't mean much. How would the payout break down with a full field?
With a 50 boat tournament scenario, payouts would hypothetically break down like this:
1st: $10,000
2nd: $4,000
3rd: $2,500
4th: $1,500
5th: $1,000
6th: $900
7th: $800
8th: $700
9th: $600
10th: $500
If it ain't broke...
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Posts: 32902
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It WAS broke, there were less than 50 signing up and costs were rising rapidly. Economy is getting better, perhaps things will come back, but costs are way up and revenues as you have this set up are static.
$2500 left over after payouts. Have to hire help to run the event, buy trophies, get permitted, buy insurance, get rooms for the event, a place for the rules meeting and awards, and pay for boat and truck fuel, etc. If you move ahead with the dinner and free raffle, when all is done there's not much left for gross profit. You will need sponsors, which means you will need exposure and advertising money to attract them. Sponsoring Muskie events to any extent is rare anymore because the coverage, exposure, and ROI on the sponsorship money for most of the events is poor to completely non existent. And, that coverage needs to be more immediate and far reaching these days, no one much cares about what happened at a fishing tournament 6 months ago unless it's a BASS Elite. |
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Posts: 670
Location: Otsego, MN | I may be wrong but the last year of the MMTT was 2009 I believe and there were 50 boats at all the tourneys I think. I know guys who were reserves just in case a team would have dropped out. Vermilion, Mille Lacs, Cass, all were full I think. Tonka was the only one having trouble getting filled. My memory could be wrong though, but if there were not 50 teams,there it was was pretty close.
Hammskie I volunteer you to start this MMTT back up again  |
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Posts: 133
Location: Duluth, MN | The last year it was full. I don't recall tonka being part of it.
Like I said Paul had it figured out how to fill all the tournaments. When it wasn't limited to 50 boats Vermilion had maybe 70 boats but the other tournaments had 20 to 30 boats. That should be another question. Who would fish the trail and not just one tournament.
I agree with Ben on payouts. It's hard to make it into the top 3, 2nd and 3rd should pay out more with top prize being lowered. With the PMTT first place might be $14,000 and 3rd place being $2,600.00
Edited by yooper 4/26/2012 7:15 PM
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| When were there less than 50 teams on the MMTT!? I fished 'em all and remember a Cass event with 49 but that's about it. Now if we're talking MAC...even though Paul was still involved, that was a completely different animal! |
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Posts: 32902
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | When Paul decided to lessen his involvement the last year. He was struggling (had to work very hard) to get 50 boats after shooting for 75), and was looking at the big picture for that year based upon anticipated participation, costs, and the uphill battle he saw coming with the economy. We talked at great length about the future of the sport and decided to try to do something about it. I was far more optimistic than he was; he was right and I wasn't.
For perspective, far more organized yet along the lines of this conversation:
http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/articles/04.27.2012/4807/Walleye.F...
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | sworrall - 4/26/2012 3:17 PM
Have to hire help to run the event I believe Paul had quite a few volunteers
buy trophies Okay.
get permitted Okay.
get rooms for the event Okay.
a place for the rules meeting and awards Okay.
and pay for boat and truck fuel I'd be paying for it anyway!
when all is done there's not much left for gross profit I don't mean to sound like a martyr, but I hadn't once thought about profits.
ROI on the sponsorship money for most of the events is poor What has changed?
And, that coverage needs to be more immediate and far reaching these days And THAT'S why I have an iPhone 4S!
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Posts: 32902
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Don't forget insurance. Might not get permitted without it.
ROI on the sponsorship money for most of the events is poor-- What's changed?
What's changed with event coverage, which is the only real carry through for the sponsors of Pro anglers and tournament trails? In the last two years, everything. Literally. Look to FLW and BASS for cutting edge TV coverage and live weigh in feeds, and OFM for web event coverage. Look to AIM for the best web coverage out there. This is what sponsors are looking for. May not matter if all you want to do is open up an informal, fun trail that doesn't need sponsorships or coverage, but it sure can't hurt to add a few thousand to the payout.
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| Steve-Don't those changes make it much easier to provide that ROI for sponsors? My sponsors are beating me up constantly about social media(which I can no longer ignore). Social media is free...find a few key people and groups and make it viral. The right people on Facebook can make the numbers of all those media outlets you mentioned look tiny! We all have the technology to create content in our pockets! The accessibility, quality and ease of mass communication via social media has completely changed the landscape; even in the few years since the demise of the MAC. |
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Posts: 32902
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Unfortunately, it's not as easy as it may seem at first glance. All those media outlets I mentioned have special teams that handle the creation and placement of the content for Facebook and Twitter, etc. and there are a TON of land mines out there in the social media marketing field of battle.
Join the NPAA and attend the January Conference. That alone is worth ten times the membership fee, and will help anyone who truly is interested in sponsorship--Pro, Tournament organizer or Guide, learn the ropes.
http://www.npaa.net/articles/04.28.2012/4543/2012.NPAA.Conference.A...
By the way, Paul and I are not done.....
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Well than, Lets do something here in Mn. I'm in.
Jerome
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Posts: 670
Location: Otsego, MN | Well we got a new Vikings stadium....I'm sure we can get a Tournament Trail some day. |
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Posts: 294
Location: Bloomer, Wi | i voted yes and have never fished this circuit but i like the setup and love the lake choices. seems like a way better series than some that are out there now
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Posts: 32902
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Paul will be making an announcement at the Metro Tournament regarding the future MMTT. |
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Posts: 567
Location: deephaven mn | $500 and 50 boats seems to be about right, in the past i don't remember alot of boats being turned away, seems like there was about 25 trail teams and then the field was filled with teams fishing just 1 or 2 events
Edited by kap 5/16/2012 5:54 PM
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Posts: 61
Location: Anoka | I wish they would bring it back I think it would get
Close to full turn out just keep it under 1000 And me and my
Partner would be in |
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Location: Carver | Hell yes get it going! I would love to do this and would fish the trail not just specific events. |
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