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Posts: 116
| I have read a lot of the blogs on MI membership. As a member of the International Executive Committee, I read them to see what I can learn from the members and nonmembers or past members. It is easy to pot shots when you don't have any skin in the game. I have been on the EC for about a year and I can assure everyone that all members of the EC have the best interests of MI front and center. We have difficulty getting volunteers to serve on this committee. Everyone would rather be out fishing.
The magazine and Keyes Outdoors seem to be the focus of many of the comments. The membership is probably split 75 to 25 in favor of continuing the magazine. It is an expensive venture and we voted to cut the issues to 6 for this year and take the savings and invest it in some national advertising, i.e Keyes Outdoors. Membership has been stagnate or slipping the past few years. With this advertising shot in the arm with Keyes, we hope we can reverse this trend. There is the old but true statement that if you continue to do what you have always done we will get the same results, declining membership and financial issues.
Leo Kofoot | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | the International and it's spending priorities are famous as is the common theme that the local chapter level is the only place where the rubber meets the road ... so common that it's typical to be a topic for discussion and frustration in chapter meetings ... at least from my experience. it's pretty much a given to sell the concept as "well, only part is a waste of time and money ... but at the local level (fill in the blank for what actually gets done).
shifting to Keyes ... ?? ... you may want to get your group together and punt.
or put blinders on and really believe that what 90% put into (3) bullet points is only pot-shots. it's the truth, it's real, it's consistent and has been communicated ... but it's considered "pot-shots" from those with no "skin" in the game = WOW
good luck dude ... | |
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| I'd argue that everybody who has ever thrown a cast at these stupid fish has "skin in the game"... The problem with membership, as I see it, is threefold:
1. Potential members don't see the value in joining. We hear it again and again. $35? Okay, what do I get for that? A magazine? And how is that different from my subsctiption to In Fishermen, or Musky Hunter? Most folks don't care about fisheries and research. They want to fish, and go home.
2. Muskie Fishing is expensive. Guys are cutting back on trips, buying fewer lures, selling gear... Asking someone who is not a member to join an organization and pay a membership fee, when that $35 could put gas in the boat? Good luck.
3. FISHING is declining. License sales are declining. The average age in some MI chapters is 53. Even our club, which is substantial, (over 300 members) has very few young people. I look around the room, and at 43 I am one of the youngest guys there. You want to get kids involved, and that's important. But kids aren't fishing. Parents don't have the time to TAKE the kids fishing, or the money to take kids fishing.
I think you're largely preaching to the choir here, as the other poll clearly indicates. I think every member of every chapter has heard about the goings on at international, and it's cost MI a LOT of members over the last several years. We pay our membership dues to International, and for most of us, we accept that we get an expensive magazine, a lot of politics, and the lunge log. We also accept that the same dollar amount given to our local chapters will actually buy a few muskies that we might catch one day, and in the back of all our minds I think a lot of us wonder why we just don't give the money to the local clubs and forgo membership all together. It's certainly not a requirement to be an MI Member to actually make a huge difference in the sport.... | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | As much as I'm not a Keys supporter in any way shape or form, I do give the Int'l some credit trying something different to reach the masses. Keys does have good numbers, many of whom are people new to muskie fishing and may not be the jaded MI haters. So it stands to reason that if you want to present your product (MI membership) to potential buyers you look for a vehicle that attracts them to advertise with.
At the end of the day MI is and always will be an imperfect operation. It is run by volunteers plain and simple. If we had full time employees where we could pay a wage to attract talented people things would be different. I doubt we will ever see that happen since muskies don't migrate.
So, we can all good guy about the things we don't like or we can roll up our sleeves and do what we can to make things better. That one is up to each and every one of you. | |
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Posts: 203
Location: Alexandria, Minnesota | I agree with Muskie Treats......Any organization has its flaws but in the overall big picture of things Muskies Inc has been imperative in the growth of the sport throughout the country...The sad thing is that many of the younger angler's that are coming up are not joining their local chapters and I think it has hurt our local fisheries. You see guys hitting the water with no pliers, Hook cutters, or even sometimes a quality landing net. In many of their minds there just is an endless supply of fish to catch so they just don't take care of the fisheries that we do have...
Just wish more guys that getting into the sport would join, Like someone said in an earlier post, for $35 you can not hardly buy more then one lure for that price... | |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | To those who ask "what's in it for me" they have the wrong mindset and attitude. It isn't about you, it's a conservation organization, not about yourself. If all you care about is yourself, then please, stay away. And try to get over yourself...you ain't that great!
Edited by gtp888 3/21/2012 7:03 AM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Muskie Treats - 3/20/2012 11:04 PM
may not be the jaded MI haters.
or "pot-shots with no skin in the game"
i'll assume you guys aren't salesmen. so, rather than respond to your potential customers' (and your own as stated) concerns, ... just call them names.
a reflection of how musky anglers are perceived in general by many other angling and legal sportsmen though, so at least it's consistent. | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | As usual Jonny, you're taking things personal when nothing was directed at you.
What I want to know Jonny is what happened to you? You used to be pretty cool and now you are the jaded old bastard in the room more times then not. Not just on MI stuff but everything else as well. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | why would you think i'm taking anything personal dude ... i guess it must have struck a chord. notice you're the lone-ranger using explatives and personal attacks.
we share the water and ice with others ... we need to remember that.
i was pretty cool i suppose when you thought i agreed with everything you do ...
i fish, ice-fish and spear occasionally and all within legal guidelines ... and live next door to a reservation where people do what they do under treaty (i guess you don't like some of that and that's fine). sometimes perspective is different than for someone who lives and does different things. condemning people for generalities seems to be common coming from you and usually founded by extremes (of which there are on both sides of most arguments).
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | I was one of the posters that took a “pot shot” in the other thread. I was on a device at the time that was not logged in. My post is the one that made the argument International needs to focus on why membership is down and work to find new ways to engage the next generation of members, by abandoning the old (magazine and website) and starting over and embracing more current technology and by focusing on investments in the fishery.
To say mine and others are pot shots is something I’d ask you to reflect on. Many of us want MI to succeed with much stronger numbers than we have now. I have been an active board member over 12 years. I have also severed a couple years on the International membership committee. During that time I think I have learned what the problems are and I shake my head in frustration that the solution is not obvious to International leadership.
Sure, keep the magazine if that’s what it takes to retain the current members, that are aging rapidly. But, come up with another parallel strategy to attract the next generation. What has been done in the past doesn’t work or the rate of attrition wouldn’t continue to increase as it has. Advertising is not the answer. Everyone you are advertising to knows all about MI. You need to fix their perception of MI, not advertise to them. Do some research, not with a survey, get out there and engage with this group and ask them what they want from MI, they will tell you. The most common theme I hear is, NOT that they don’t want to spend $35. It is why should I give money to International when all they do is spend it on a magazine, a dinosaur of a web site and advertising. This year the choice was to go with a sponsor that is abrasive and polarizing to many. This is another example of making them feel like International isn’t connected with what the membership wants. Much like you probably feel about our current congress. They are aware that not one penny of their $35 makes it to the chapter. They would rather see their money go to the chapter where it will be invested in developing the local fishery, something they directly benefit from. To attract this group you need to repurpose the money spent on magazines and advertising and give it back to the chapters through qualifying grants. If you can’t do that, then change the no-magazine membership to $35 and give all but the costs of insurance and nominal admin costs, say $10, to the chapters grant program. If you don’t think this will work, look at what the Hugh Becker grant program is doing to get people rallying around a cause. Then take some creative minds and make some smart phone apps that leverage the value of the lunge log, (your greatest intellectual property) and overlay it with solunar data, add a subscription blog and/or email newsletter that keeps membership up to date about money invested in chapter projects and how those projects are progressing to deliver results locally over time.
Joe Mellott
Chapter 01
Edited by Luke_Chinewalker 3/21/2012 7:55 AM
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Posts: 5874
| Get rid of the magazine. It's expensive to print. It's directing funds that would be better spent elswhere. Just put a link on the MI website. In fact, make the e-magazine link available to everybody. As a former member, I never looked forward to receiving the magazine. Certainly not with the same anticipation as Musky Hunter, or Esox Angler.
As for the recent sponsorship of Keyes Outdoor? I guess if he can keep from bashing good people in the industry, it's probably not a bad idea. Course, that depends on how much they are paying him, too.
A big change in the way the International operated, and was looked upon, came when Perry Smith became President. He worked tirelessly to change the culture of MI, and the way the local chapters viewed the International. I had several converstations with Perry in Milwaukee, and once on LOTW. Great guy, and great passion for the sport and MI. Unfortunately, Perry's tenure was too short, and his vison has been somewhat lost. I know Jay Zahn. He is a great guy, and is working hard to improve the culture of MI as a whole. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Luke - Shep ... Halleluyah
and Treats, my mother would argue with your label of me (pretty loyal old gal), but i'm sure she'll forgive you ... | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | A non member reading this might just agree with the 'perception of MI' issues. One of the problems with Muskies Inc recruiting has always been the tendency to 'guilt trip' folks into signing up instead of selling a positive experience that benefits the new member and the sport. Even more troubling is the tendency to accelerate the process if challenged with objections.
The sometimes negative perception of MI is, has been, and will continue to be a public relations issue. Read some of the posts from MI members in this and the other active MI thread. A couple were so offensive we had to delete them.
I've been a member of several clubs over the years. All were good organizations and the experience was positive for the most part. The Cap City Chapter muskie school last weekend was a blast.
It's true that any new member can make a difference if they choose to join and become very involved. It's true the Clubs need new membership and need active members. It's true the organization at the local level does allot for the fisheries. But it's still my choice whether to become a member or not, and insulting, belittling, or attempting to use 'guilt trip' jargon in the process of recruiting me probably won't endear me to the concept.
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | I'm not a member but I will find a way to give to my local club. My local club is awesome, with a great group of guys that do a lot of great things for both the fisheries and the local community. However, I never want another dime of my money to go to International. For those of you who say "who cares about international, just join locally", I say no thanks on the basis of where I choose to spend my money.
And my concience (sp?) is pretty clear on giving back to the fisheries so the usual MI guilt trip doesnt work on me. | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot |
There are a lot of "perks" (like 10% off of baits at Thorne Bros), fishing trips to waters you may not fish by yourself, decades of fishing knowledge by the members, etc. The bottom line benefit is that being active and involved will eventually improve fishing for YOU!
I apologize to Sled. Your constant negative attitude drew me down into the mud and I went for a round and I know better. Have a great day. | |
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| I love you too Shawn | |
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Posts: 3160
| It costs $100 to join Sams club so you can buy product from them
it costs $35 to join Muskies inc and show local dnrs that the interest and number in muskie fishing is growing when dnr budgets are looking for reasons to cut programs
I dont disagree with the figure that about 10% of all muskie fisherman are MI members but I dont see that has an embarrassment on MI's part has much has WHY??? if you dont agree with MI havent the other 90% organized another national muskie org, Muskies inc has no patton/copyright on muskie orgs
MI is fine,,the reason there is no other national muskie org is because the people that would have the ambition to start that have already joined MI
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Location: The desert | Clubs like the Figure 8 club in north central Wisconsin blow MI out of the water. Just about every dime goes back to the fisheries. | |
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Location: Grand Forks ND | There wouldn't be the fishing there is now without the work of Muskies, Inc.
PERIOD!!!!! | |
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Location: The desert | MuskyManiac09 - 3/21/2012 9:20 AM
There wouldn't be the fishing there is now without the work of Muskies, Inc.
PERIOD!!!!!
How do you know? MI has done some great things, no doubt. But you're wildly assuming that we'd be living in the dark ages had MI not been started. | |
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | - "The sad thing is that many of the younger angler's that are coming up are not joining their local chapters and I think it has hurt our local fisheries. You see guys hitting the water with no pliers, Hook cutters, or even sometimes a quality landing net. In many of their minds there just is an endless supply of fish to catch so they just don't take care of the fisheries that we do have" Dave williamson...
I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. The thing that bothers me about this is a lot of the more seasoned guys think us younger guys don't know what we're doing, strictly because we are young. That is just not the case. Maybe if a guy is out there wanting to chase muskies and does not have any of the proper gear, including the right reel or rod. I could see that. But for the most part if the younger guys have the "bug" they are very good about doing everything correctly. I am an active member of MI and I am 26 years old. My brother who is 18 and four of friends (also 18) that I took Musky fishing last year are also on their way to joining. All of the younger guys that I know who fish muskies have the exact same passion for the sport and the fish that the older more experienced guys do.
When I hear people say that the younger guys don't know what their doing because they are "young" is the exact reason that a lot of them don't want to join. Why would we want to be a part of a system where we are looked down upon by some of the senior members (not all). It is not a good feeling, and bothers me that people actually think that way. IMO it is ignorance to say anything like that. I know that MI does a lot to get some younger guys in and started into musky fishing.... but it starts with you...! If you act towards us as such then your right we wont join and MI will start to falter more then it already is.
Now I do agree in the sense that there are young guys out there that dont know what they are doing, but I would say 99% of those guys are not trying to chase Muskies on a regular basis. They are going for bass, and just enjoy catching larger fish. But no "smart" person invests thousands upon thousands of dollars in gear to destroy a system they are trying to protect.
I will continue to be an active part of MI for as long as I can still hold a rod. I refuse to let the fisheries that you guys worked so hard to put together for "us young guys", fall apart. I will do everything in my power to keep it up and going. But we as young guys need to know that we are supported by the whole cast of experienced Musky hunters, and not just the ones that choose to be nice on a certain given day.
I do know that most "seasoned" anglers do support the younger guys. But it is the select few with bad out looks on youth fisherman that keep us out.
And if I misunderstood the comment then I apologize. But things like this do happen on a regular basis to some guys I know, myself included.
Edited by FAT-SKI 3/21/2012 10:55 AM
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | FAT-SKI, you are well spoken and IMO you nailed this one! I see and hear a lot of what you're saying with regards to older anglers not respecting the younger ones. I had heard one of the reasons for Muskies Inc. joining with Keyes Outdoors Show and their onling magazine was to reach a younger audience and help to increase membership of the younger crowd. I heard this from a very reliable source who was at the meetings with the International when this all came about. | |
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| Pointer
if you demand info from MM
I think we need to know about figure 8,,Id love to hear more about their work
Edited by happy hooker 3/21/2012 11:02 AM
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Location: The desert | happy hooker - 3/21/2012 10:01 AM
Pointer
if you demand info from MM
I think we need to know about figure 8,,Id love to hear more about their work
What have I demanded from MI?
They stock thousands of fingerlings each year in their local waters. They host a giant fundraiser that usually brings their club over 20 grand in one weekend. I was a member for a year or two before I moved away. A good group of guys. Very little politics, very little BS, a large amount of beer, and a meat raffle. Most of the money generated is generated locally and it stays locally. | |
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | gtp888 - 3/21/2012 10:53 AM
FAT-SKI, you are well spoken and IMO you nailed this one! I see and hear a lot of what you're saying with regards to older anglers not respecting the younger ones. I had heard one of the reasons for Muskies Inc. joining with Keyes Outdoors Show and their onling magazine was to reach a younger audience and help to increase membership of the younger crowd. I heard this from a very reliable source who was at the meetings with the International when this all came about.
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Hey gtp888... I appreciate the compliment. I have also heard that. But being a young guy who is an avid Musky hunter as well as knowing a few other young guys out there. To be honest, MI can advertise all they want. I understand the MI in a way is using keys to reach guys like me. But I feel I can safely say, regardless to advertising it is not going to make a difference if there is no respect coming from the other "senior" members. I attended my first meeting a few weeks ago and the signals I got from the people there were very mixed. Some of the guys were more then willing to give me info, and discuss with me what they know, so I can further expand my knowledge of this beautiful sport. But there were other people that looked at me like I was just a "dumb kid" in their eyes and it almost made me not want to go back. I tried to talk to as many people as possible, some were willing some were not. When you try and try to speak with people to expand knowledge and they just blow you off. It does not matter how much advertising is out there.
If members of MI are concerned about the number of youth members joining (and they should be) The difference in how MI is run needs to start with its senior members, not getting rid of a magazine. if people think that young fisherman aren't joining because of a few expensive pieces of paper, that is just laughable in my mind. Its because there is no mutual respect... If that is not going to change, then nothing is going to change. Once it is realized that "you need us, more then we need you" the active members will sky rocket. I am not trying to sound self centered. Like I said in my previous post. I want to be a part of this system because I believe in it. I just need the senior members to believe in us 100% not 50%
Edited by FAT-SKI 3/21/2012 11:24 AM
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Location: oswego, il | I think the international has come along way in the past few years. Still some old guard left tossing out an anchor but I like the fact some new things are being done and to what those have been can be agreed and disagreed upon. The dialog about how to improve is ongoing and should all be taken into consideration. I am all for getting the young blood into this sport too. New ideas and technology are a great thing. I also do like what was said earlier about it's not what you get but what you put into it. I think organizations like DU and Pheasants Forever do a better job of conveying that message. One thing MI needs to do is talk to what we do for you and have done for you alot more. Sure chapter challenges and memorial tournaments are fun and build comraderie and you can certainly read about it in the magazine and the old website. Try and find out about issues concerning musky anglers to be voted on during the spring hearings and there isn't anything. Make a difference there, then hang your hat on it, you can talk to that to any potential future member. We did this for you beats come fish our tournament most every time.
Edited by ToddM 3/21/2012 11:38 AM
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Location: Illinois | I limed the way you it was before you edited it Todd.
I've never joined b/c I'm selfish, cheap, and dislike grumpy old men.
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Location: oswego, il | "Smart" phones small keys too small for your fingers can make me look like an idiot every time. I click on slamr's profile page every day. I am sure he really lime's that! | |
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| Getting the younger crowd involved is a challenge, that's true. But I don't think the blame lies with MI, or the guys in the club. When you get to the age where you are able to afford muskie fishing, what are you typically doing? Married, job, kids, house... Trying to make a living and keep everything together from day to day and week to week. We see it in all of our activities. There is hardly anyone between the ages of 25 and 40 who really has the time or the money in their life to be able to join a fishing club. The only people we've found in our age group who are able to spend the money and time are divorced, never married, or couples with no kids. The rest are too busy just trying to make it in life. | |
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Posts: 833
| I'm a member of the North Metro club here in the Twin Cities. I joined last year to go to a banquet and hear Larry Dahlberg speak. Since then I joined the club and recently decided to become more active as I see value in the club. The International issues do not really concern me. I'm sure they are very important to some folks and I do not begrudge them that, however, I think it it covers up the great benefits that local clubs have to offer. As a fisherman who is still fairly new to the sport, the club offers a myriad of benefits. Every month I get to hear a different guide speak and I learn new things that might have taken me years on the water to figure out on my own. The other members will share information that helps you become a better fisherman. The local leagues, tournies, and trips are all excellent opportunities that wouldn't be present without the club. I think it is a great opportunity to speed your learning curve and meet other people that have the same addiction as you.
Just my opinion. | |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | FAT-SKI
I agree with you to an extent. However, most members do not go to a meeting. Our chapter has some 400+ members but we only see 50-90 at a meeting. The younger generation isn't going to attend meetings at a higher percentage of the current rate because they live in a virtual world. Killing the expense of the magazine gives MI capital to invest in new technology to connect with the younger generation. | |
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Brad P - 3/21/2012 12:31 PM
I'm a member of the North Metro club here in the Twin Cities. I joined last year to go to a banquet and hear Larry Dahlberg speak. Since then I joined the club and recently decided to become more active as I see value in the club. The International issues do not really concern me. I'm sure they are very important to some folks and I do not begrudge them that, however, I think it it covers up the great benefits that local clubs have to offer. As a fisherman who is still fairly new to the sport, the club offers a myriad of benefits. Every month I get to hear a different guide speak and I learn new things that might have taken me years on the water to figure out on my own. The other members will share information that helps you become a better fisherman. The local leagues, tournies, and trips are all excellent opportunities that wouldn't be present without the club. I think it is a great opportunity to speed your learning curve and meet other people that have the same addiction as you.
Just my opinion.
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I agree with everything said above to the fullest. Which is why regardless I am a member. I love being able to listen to people talk about all things Musky, that have a vast knowledge greater then my own. Brad P listed all the exact reasons why this Club is great for the young and old members. I as well do not look into the INTL side of everything. My reason for being there is so I can help my local fisheries as well as become a better fisherman myself.
The things I stated above are IMHO some of the reasons younger guys don't join.. thats all. I hear it from them and think it myself from time to time. This will be my fourth year Musky hunting, I am very new to the sport. But it took me three years to join for some of those reasons I stated above. Once I realized that being a part of MI will not only help myself but help the fisheries I did not hesitate to pay my $35. I also believe that being young myself will help get young guys that I know involved so we can continue this for many years to come.
What I want to know, is how can I better assist the organization to help it and not just sit here explaining my opinion. I want to get out there and help teach the young guys to. I am learning day by day how to do so, but wish I had a better backing of knowledge on how to better accomplish these goals. Any Thoughts?
Edited by FAT-SKI 3/21/2012 1:08 PM
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Luke_Chinewalker - 3/21/2012 12:42 PM
FAT-SKI
I agree with you to an extent. However, most members do not go to a meeting. Our chapter has some 400+ members but we only see 50-90 at a meeting. The younger generation isn't going to attend meetings at a higher percentage of the current rate because they live in a virtual world. Killing the expense of the magazine gives MI capital to invest in new technology to connect with the younger generation.
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I am learning more right now reading all of these opinions then I probably would have just going to meetings. Anyway to expand knowledge, for me, is valuable. This forum and discussion is a great way. I hope to have many more of these throughout the year. That is just my 10 cents. clearly, I spoke more then two...
Edited by FAT-SKI 3/21/2012 1:42 PM
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| This is just my perspective as a younger guy who recently joined. Our club is going through a lot changes due in part to the "youth movement" type issues that have been hit upon here. This is one of the reasons I've decided to get more active and help shape the future of the club. I'm in my 30s which makes me a younger member, so if I want more things that I'm interested then it is up to me to get involved and help make those thigns happen. That is the nature of volunteer work.
I read the stuff in this thread, incuding some very valid criticisms, but I think it isn't so much a crticism of what MI stands for so much as how it delivers on that mission. if you asked most everyone here the question of whether or not they approve of the core MI mission, I think it is reasonable to think they would all vigorously support it. So the question to me is more about how the MI club delivers it's "product" to it's membership vs. whether or not the product is worthwhile. I think this is a key to increasing local membership as well as interest in the sport as a whole. | |
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hi Everyone,
As an educator of our future generations, a few things come to mind as to why many kids are not involved anywhere near as much as maybe many of us were when we were younger.
On top of some of the things already mentioned (economy playing a big part, busy family life, etc.), we have kids these days that desire an instant gratification of what they do, and an attention span that cannot handle anything more than about 20 minutes. I believe there are many reasons for this with one of the largest contributors is media and video games. Watch a TV show and count how many times the camera view changes. Listen to a song on the radio...how long does it last as compared to many of the older songs of years past? With video games, a kid will sit there for hours on end to master a level because there is instant gratification in getting further along in the level itself.
The point being here is that many kids (not all) have been allowed to have all the electronic gadgets for entertainment purposes, and the ideals of being outside, enjoying nature and the fruits it has to offer are less desired. What incentive is there for kids to get out there when games, toys, phones, text messaging are all at the forefront of their lives? The age of being creative with simple basic things around is in essence, gone... making mud pies are a thing of the past.
The scope of this goes well beyond Muskies Inc, clubs, etc as it can be applied to many areas in life.
I think to get more young kids involved in a technology filled society is a going to be a very very tough task. If (and hopefully...when) someone figures out how to disconnect the masses of kids from thier techno gadgets, TV, etc. we will see an increase in all areas of the outdoors, including muskies...and we as a group of people need to create more and more opportunities to work with kids.
I believe if we had more outdoor programs where we can get fishing rods in kids hands we can make some things happen. Get them out there with quick results (panfish, perch, etc.) and they can become "hooked" so to speak... If Muskies Inc wants more membership, things like this could potentially bring more young people into the sport of fishing in general, and as they continue to age, we can then groom them to pursue more challenging fish....
This is a long road, though... much in the same light as In Fisherman, muskies inc, etc. with catch and release.
I also feel it comes down to more than just putting $$ out there. People need to look at it as how can they contribute rather than what do they get (as has been very well stated in previous posts). I am not a part of Muskies Inc, but I do my best to encourage others (especially younger ones) to try it and see how that first fish following a bait to the boat can be all it takes to get them focused on catching one, starting their obsession.
Steve | |
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| Beyond the outings the meetings and the fun parts....
Whether you choose to be a member or not is one point but I think being a SUPPORTER is really the key.
Joining and then stopping there is a step but the bigger picture is doing something more...and joining does not have to be a precurser to being involved. The big picture requires:
Donations...either time and effort, items of value or money. Find your own nitch in the picture. Everyone has something the local chapter needs and in the balance a little time is a great donation if the money isn't easy to come by or give.
Someone needs to help raise, market and then manage the funds from these efforts.
People need to work with the state/ local fisheries experts to identify and prioritize the finacial needs beyond the meager stipend the government provides. Available funds need to be assessed in a reasonable manner to work towards sensible goals.
So you need people to donate, people to buy donations and people to organize fundraising and then distribute it in a business like and responsible manner.
Additionally there are great events to produce, vets to take fishing, kids to get involved...again, time effort and funding.
I live in the Twin Cities area and the two clubs here to an A+ job with all of these tasks. I truthfully don't know exactly what happens at the National level but I see great things that happen locally and I am proud to be associated with both chapters.
The key is to do something...support something...provide a little push behind the wheels so our fishing keeps up with the now easily learned knowledge and resulting numbers that are flocking to the sport. Involvement becomes it's own reward. | |
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| Bturg, what you state is where I believe the value of a MI membership really shines. Plenty of people WANT to do something, but they don't know what, or for whom, or how. Some people fish alone and would be happy to take a newbie fishing. Some people have an extensive knowledge of their lakes, and would love to share that information. Some people have money to donate. Some people have connections at companies who can donate money and/or products. Some people want to teach kids how to fish. Some people want to get their hands dirty and stock muskies or clean up lakes and rivers. Some people are salesmen, some people are good negotiators, some are financial guys, some have experience with fundraising... I could go on, but you get the point. We can all do things on our own, but MI is the place where you can foster that desire, and put the skills and personalities of individuals together in one place, and actually make things happen. It's the place people can go and have someone who knows what needs to be done find the right person to make it happen. The $35 is nothing. How many guys have $3,500 tied up in lures? I guarantee you that nearly everyone has some skill or talent or interest that could be out to good use. And what's in it for them is a brighter future of muskie fishing than what we've seen in the past. And that's where MI fails IMO. They fail to communicate to potential members what exactly they have to gain from joining MI. I joined because I love fishing, and I was really into learning about the whole muskie deal. It wasn't until AFTER I joined and went to the meetings every month that I learned what our club really does and why and where and how. I think if people really knew what was being accomplished, they'd be lining up to join. But they don't know. They see a magazine and a bunch of fat old guys sitting around drinking beer. | |
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Location: Eau Claire, WI | First thing I want to say is that I am not privvy to day to day goings on with the Int'l. Some of this may be happening and I simply don't know.
I have been very involved with my chapter for a long time. I've been a board member since the late 90's and I have been a VP, secretary, and chaired a few committees.
All organizations are struggling to stay relevant. It began when boards like this became more popular. I work with a ton of different organizations and largely it doesn't matter if we are talking about Heart Surgeons or Muskie Fishers.
The expansion of the internet and social media makes all associations/organizations struggle to stay relevant and justify the cost of membership.
I believe M.I. will grow again when their purpose is more focused and visible. Stop trying to be "me too" and show up late to the party with a mediocre product that the market already gets from somewhere else for less money.
What can M.I. be the best in the world at? I think the answer is resource advocacy and action. This is what many cite as the reason they are involved and currently the chapters get credit for that. I think that is well deserved and I like that people see that.
Over the years, the parent organization has wasted a lot of time and resources trying to be all things to all people. There has also has been a "you come to us because we are the kings" mentality in trying to attract members. I think the guilt trip comment is valid. That kind of institutional arrogance is deadly in the current market environment. I think that the org has tried to change it but its a mixed bag and the whole "skin in the game or you are not valid" mentality is an example of how something have not changed. Join or shut up. How many times has that been used?
A few examples that I see:
Who needs a magazine? Can M.I. be the best in the world at publishing? Research articles are good but it doesn't have mass appeal. The other stuff can be largely obtained elsewhere in print and online. The cost of disseminating MI specific info is too high and its smothered in a product that is eclipsed in the market by others.
Who needs a website? Can M.I. exceed the quality and presence of sites like this? Been trying for years, yet to succeed. Costly journey. Stick to just org stuff and go to the people on facebook, twitter, sites like this.
Who needs a contest and Lunge Log? Trophies for everyone! It comes at a cost. Lunge log should be open like Musky Hunters and made available as a perk to people as an app people can use to log their catches and keep them private if they want. We don't need to pay people to run this.
who needs fishing info from MI? You can learn a ton way faster than going to a few meetings here and there and abiding by the "shut up and listen" idea. MI chapters do have value here though. I learned location specific stuff that I could never get out in the cloud. I also enjoy the social aspects of the outings, etc. It can be hard though for a new guy to break in and enjoy this benefit of membership. Not all chapters have the most inviting memberships. I learned that the hard way trying to break into my chapter years ago. I almost quit because of it. I got involved and worked to change it. Still that reputation haunts us no matter what we do.
I give MI upper mgmt credit for trying something with Keyes. What I wonder is how it went when Perry had Simply Fishing promoting the org that makes this time around promising. I believe even then the "stagnant to receding membership" topic was alive and well.
I think that the marketing challenge here is to first raise brand awareness THEN comes the call to action. I have not seen Keyes so I don't know what they are saying but if the lead is "join us" it won't be all that great until audience members understand who MI is and what they do for all of us.
I think if the org realigns and focuses purely on expanding the range and increasing waters in established territories that is something M.I. can truly be the best in the world at and all financial/marketing activities should serve that goal.
That is the niche MI is well suited to be the best at.
That is my personal opinion and its the reason I still belong.
All the rest is a distraction and a costly one at that.
Jon Olstadt
First WI Chapter
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | "I read the stuff in this thread, incuding some very valid criticisms, but I think it isn't so much a crticism of what MI stands for so much as how it delivers on that mission. if you asked most everyone here the question of whether or not they approve of the core MI mission, I think it is reasonable to think they would all vigorously support it" -Brad P
"So the question to me is more about how the MI club delivers it's "product" to it's membership vs. whether or not the product is worthwhile. I think this is a key to increasing local membership as well as interest in the sport as a whole." - Brad P
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OK, So after this I am going to try and refrain from posting on this thread again as I have a lot already and let someone else speak their piece.
However I am confused with your above statement, I am not trying to criticize you in anyway I just don't understand the question you are asking. If you would hands down support the core of MI, how and why would you question its value? You said most if not all of us would vigorously support it, but then it seems as if you are questioning the worthiness of the product itself?
Just trying to better understand where you are coming from... | |
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| When is somebody going to stepup and start an alternative musky org in Minn???
they have a bunch of independent clubs in wisc
Im a dedicated active MI member and I dont view this has any type of comp or threat.In fact over the years Ive tried to challenge/provoke this to happen.Id love to see more MN muskie anglers who dont agree with MI organized so the DNR and more importantly the politicians can see the interest.
Ive been to MANY,MANY dnr,public input muskie issue events over the years and its always the same MI guys who show to make the stand, you could print up the name badges in advance.
In Minn thank god we have MI there wouldnt be anything else. | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | FAT-SKI - 3/21/2012 9:22 AM
Hey gtp888... I appreciate the compliment. I have also heard that. But being a young guy who is an avid Musky hunter as well as knowing a few other young guys out there. To be honest, MI can advertise all they want. I understand the MI in a way is using keys to reach guys like me. But I feel I can safely say, regardless to advertising it is not going to make a difference if there is no respect coming from the other "senior" members. I attended my first meeting a few weeks ago and the signals I got from the people there were very mixed. Some of the guys were more then willing to give me info, and discuss with me what they know, so I can further expand my knowledge of this beautiful sport. But there were other people that looked at me like I was just a "dumb kid" in their eyes and it almost made me not want to go back. I tried to talk to as many people as possible, some were willing some were not. When you try and try to speak with people to expand knowledge and they just blow you off. It does not matter how much advertising is out there.
If members of MI are concerned about the number of youth members joining (and they should be) The difference in how MI is run needs to start with its senior members, not getting rid of a magazine. if people think that young fisherman aren't joining because of a few expensive pieces of paper, that is just laughable in my mind. Its because there is no mutual respect... If that is not going to change, then nothing is going to change. Once it is realized that "you need us, more then we need you" the active members will sky rocket. I am not trying to sound self centered. Like I said in my previous post. I want to be a part of this system because I believe in it. I just need the senior members to believe in us 100% not 50%
We're up to 50%! You should have seen it when I was your age and joined. I went a whole year w/o anyone talking to me the 1st time I signed up. That was when I quit the first time. Then I joined another chapter and didn't really like how things were going so I quit again. Then Happy Hooker drug me down to the TC Chapter and it stuck.
You are so right when it comes to the interpersonal relationships and being open when it comes to getting people to stick around. I've been beating that drum for years at the TC Chapter, and while it's far from perfect it's light years from where we started from 10 years ago.
Since the political side of things have been slower this year I've been devoting my time to membership and we're in the process of making some additional changes. I'd love to have you on the team if your interested.
Shawn Kellett | |
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| You're joking, Hooker? Minnesota Musky and Pike Alliance? | |
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| MMPA pardon me if I dont understand your reply
I understand we have the MMA now MMPA,,,Im sure your aware of the fact I was one of the original year one members of the first steering committee for the MMA
In fact it was MY job to search high and low for candidate Minn groups to invite to join,,all I could come up with was the pike group in Branerd the MMA was all MI chapters in the end.
what other non MI Minnesota muskie clubs with a membership are now part of the MMPA
Edited by happy hooker 3/21/2012 3:39 PM
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| At FAT-SKI:
I'm not questioning the product, I think the org is great, which is why I joined. My point was to differentiate between the local clubs and what they do vs. some of the issues expressed here regarding the international org. I was trying to point out that being irked about spending $35 annually for whatever reason seems (at least to me) to overlook the many other local positives.
The rest of it was getting into the details of how the club frames itself which I'm sure most people do not care about. Me getting too detailed again... that never happens.
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Thank you Brad, that is what I was looking for, was not trying to attack you in anyway I was just trying to better understand what you were getting at.
So thank you! | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Brad P - 3/21/2012 1:50 PM
I read the stuff in this thread, incuding some very valid criticisms, but I think it isn't so much a crticism of what MI stands for so much as how it delivers on that mission.
Bingo ... | |
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| So okay... How does one get a generation of kids who are glued to their I phones, laptops, and X boxes to appreciate going out in nature and doing what amounts to physical work, to maybe see and maybe catch a few fish? Other than the parents of those kids, many of whom try desperately to keep their kids engaged in the ourdoor activities we all love, who is going to do it? And how do you get a kid who has had everything handed to them, whose life is all about gratfication in seconds or minutes, to go out and actually enjoy spending hours casting and not catching anything?
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Plenty of the younger generations are fishing muskies. The issue is getting them to join MI. | |
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| Steve, I'd argue that what you say is a regional phenomenon. In your area, fishing is a way of life. Kids grow up fishing. Their friends fish, their parents fish, and their grandparents fish. But down here? Wow. We are lucky to have 4 MI chapters within 50 miles of each other, amounting to some 1,000 members or more. But the only kids fishing are fishing because they grew up with it. I can understand that considering the lack of fishing opportunities and quality of fishing down here. But generally speaking, being out on a boat on a lake casting for the opportunity to catch a fish is something that most of today's youth simply do not embrace. The guys in our club will tell you it's like pulling teeth to get their teenage kids out on the boat, and these are die hard muskie anglers. Getting them to have a passion for the outdoors and muskie fishing is an uphill battle. I found my way there as a youth only because my parents took me to WI every weekend, and because quite frankly I belong in the woods. (Which Samantha is all too eager to point out...)
My question is quite simply this: How do we get kids into the sport? The children of anglers and MI members will be forced into it by default. I was forced into it by default. But the vast majority of kids today are taught at a young age that things like fishing and hunting and shooting a gun are evil, redneck, low life Rebublican pursuits...
If you want younger folks to join MI, you have to convince them that there is a benefit to doing so. The kids who have fathers and uncles and grandfathers in the sport will get there by default. It's the REST of them that we need to reach.
To you and I, fishing is a lifestyle. It's in our blood, it's who we are. It's what we've lived and what we grew up with.
If MI is to suceed over the long term, it HAS TO reach the people who have not known that as a lifestyle.
How do we get there? | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | National Professional Anglers Association.
Last weekend the Cap City Chapter made sure a group of kids attended the School, and left with a new rod and reel courtesy of a couple dedicated NPAA members and the NPAA.
The next Sunday the same happened at Ice Breaker 7.
Want to get some help getting kids into fishing? Contact the NPAA.
www.npaa.net
If you look at the news tab here, you will see a TON of activity from the NPAA. Coupled with the power of local Muskies Inc clubs, some kids just might end up enjoying fishing.
It's all about the Sport.
Jono, bullseye.
The International could learn a thing or two from the NPAA and should partner up. Dewey, you out there?
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | Wow Jono couldn't have been more accurate and articulate about what International needs to do IMHO. Way to go Jono. Someone should submit his post as a motion to take action on at the next International board meeting. | |
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| Pointerpride102 - 3/21/2012 11:14 AM
Clubs like the Figure 8 club in north central Wisconsin .
I've had some good pm's with happy hooker about this. I'm one of the VP's of this club. I won't go into considerable detail but will if you shoot me a pm.
Some on here are familiar with our club. Yes, we are a muskie club but that is a very small part of what we do. We are basically a community service group that puts a ton of our resources back into the local area. Scholarships, boat launch improvements, sponsoring kids fishing days, helping out our local WFT chapter, purchasing little league uniforms, and the list goes on.
We also stock fish but by reaching out to the community we are regarded as a community focused organization that cares about the area. We are not seen as "those elitist muskie guys who only stock fish to meet their personal needs." That's a huge reason why we are successful. There is no "us against them" attitude. Yeah, there are antis everywhere but by promoting the other stuff we do and following through with it we have people itching to help us with our events.
We do our muskie related stuff but that's not all we have in common with one another. We care about the things we are involved in outside of fishing and improving the fishery. Muskies is the tie that binds us together but it goes beyond that.
It is not a MI club and that was intentional. Membership dues go directly back to the club and are invested locally. It's helped build a very solid fishery from nothing and along with our winter ice fishing derby we've generated a considerable amount of money. We've sent money to the Consolidated Club for their stocking efforts and also the C&R club for their efforts plus others. Our own stocking efforts have been tweaked because of a few issues that I won't bother to get into here...primarily increased interest in establishing a walleye fishery and avoiding any negative PR that would give the antis ammo...but we support that effort too by donating money to the WFT chapter and acting as another voice solidly in their corner when approaching the WDNR, businesses in the area, or other local organizations.
There's nothing flashy about our group. We're basically just a bunch of hillbillies who enjoy fishing, give each other crap, and enjoy copious amounts of adult beverages but not necessarily in that order and all three are often combined at the same time. Thankfully there is a very determined core of guys who love their Point Special and Schlitz. Bottom line is that we are a community service group with a fishing hobby.
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Location: Illinois | EA,
There are lots of kids who fish whose parents don't in Chicago. I'll often see single moms reading a book while their kid bank fishes a local pond or the banks of Lake Michigan. Not every kid chooses the xbox over the chance to go fishing. Some kids enjoy both. There are tons of Forest Preserve lakes that are stocked annually that offer opportunity to those eager to try. Your rants about how kids are ADD because of video games and cellphones is a little over the top in my opinion. How do you get kids today to go fishing? Ask one. If it's your kid and they won't give it a try, do what you do to get them to do anything else, bribe them. "If you catch the biggest fish Junior, I'll buy you a video game when we're done!" | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i've been sold and am joining again. | |
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| like any organization you take the good w the bad...IMO the good that Muskies Inc does for Musky fishing as a whole, whether it's awareness of cpr etc, stocking, help raising size limits, stocking new waters like in MN, etc etc far outweighs some of the things that might be to some a waste of money... I'm a member and always will be...
Sled, I know you like to stir the pot but at times need to step back and look at the big picture..... ; ) | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | this pot's been boiling bnellie ...
nice to see things are finally being addressed. i've been impressed with the acknowledgement of key topics and what looks like momentum to process change both on the board and in pm activity. i'm coming back to MI and it sounds like even more are based on what i'm hearing in pm's. end result of this getting out in the air on this forum looks like it's good for MI. | |
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Location: Okoboji | i think an incentive based membership tied with statewide and national tourneys could be introduced....7 dollars off your registration fees if your a mi member and it is mandatory to be a mi member to be in the tourney. if you make it to 5 tourneys anywhere, bamn there is your mi fees...everybody wins.
kinda like in motorcycle racing...you wanna race??? you HAVE to have an ama card. | |
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| Not enough tourney anglers to address the membership issue. I'd wager that a good portion of the tourney anglers are already MI members.
As Steve said, NPAA is a good organization, that does alot of good stuff for the kids. Good idea for MI to partner up with this group.
Oh, and get rid of the print magazine. It's a money pit. | |
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Location: Eau Claire, WI | Steve - the NPAA example is awesome. I've tried to encourage "partnerships" at the local level. We need to be part of the larger angler community so I like to find opportunities to do it. We just finished up a 5 years stocking partnership between our chapter, and the chippewa rod n gun with very important support from Hugh Becker Fund. It was good for us.
Shep, amen to both of your points.
Print is expensive and dead. Stick to disseminating MI info only and use digital outlets to do it. The extent of hardcopy should be newsletter for those who opt in. Otherwise, head to the web (website, facebook, etc.) or get it emailed to you as a pdf.
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Location: Okoboji | Shep - 3/22/2012 1:15 PM
Not enough tourney anglers to address the membership issue. I'd wager that a good portion of the tourney anglers are already MI members.
is the twin cities tournament a mi only? i bet tons of those guys are not members all the tourneys i have been too that have been put on by the mi local clubs dont require membership.... i think there is an incentive to require membership....i dont have one...i know lots of people that dont that fish tourneys.
Edited by kodiak 3/22/2012 1:41 PM
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Shep - 3/22/2012 1:15 PM
Not enough tourney anglers to address the membership issue. I'd wager that a good portion of the tourney anglers are already MI members.
As Steve said, NPAA is a good organization, that does alot of good stuff for the kids. Good idea for MI to partner up with this group.
Oh, and get rid of the print magazine. It's a money pit.
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Do you actually believe that the magazine is the reason that kids aren't joining? As it says on the MI website you can opt out of getting the magazine when you sign up... (1)... (2)... if you want to save them money then you can send an e-mail to them stating that you only want the online version and not the paper version. It actually says it will help save money. But know one does these things, they just choose to complain about them. I guess it is easier....? So there are things that can be done by people if they choose to take those routes.
no offense to anyone, I'm just sick of hearing the same complaint about the magazine, Yet know one changes anything about their MI membership. Sorry That is just how I feel... | |
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Location: The desert | I think the issue with the magazine is the money spent on it could actually go toward the fishery. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'no offense to anyone, I'm just sick of hearing the same complaint about the magazine, Yet know one changes anything about their MI membership. Sorry That is just how I feel...'
They still print and publish the magazine whether you personally opt out or not. | |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | My personal feelings are NOT swayed by the argument "look at the other positives, we know International is screwed up" and the understanding that so many dues $$$ get wasted. This is a known thing, it has been, but they are resistant to change. Maybe my not joining and getting to say something about it here as others have done will help affect change. maybe not. | |
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Location: Eau Claire, WI | I'm sure they have a printing contract that includes a minimum run no matter who wants them mailed so opting out is just a mail savings plus some overhead. A drop in the bucket. A nice gesture.
Let's see, our chapter has maybe 200 members x $35 for a single membership = 7000 a year. I don't know the true breakdown of the membership types and revenue for our club so this is an approximation.
But for the sake of example, $7000 represents a large portion of our chapter's operating budget. Even half that to us would be a huge help. But next to none of it trickles down. Where is the motivation to recruit new members? The benefits to the chapter are minimal - a larger pool to draw your 10% from for help and to hit up for money to actually pay for the chapter activities. Its messed up.
Approx 50 chapters. Some with more or less membership numbers. I'm guessing 200 is about average. 50x7000= is $350,000. Man how much could be done for the resource with that money.
I don't have the hard numbers on membership revenue so please understand this is an approximation but it helps illustrate how inefficiently the membership dollars get burned on things I don't think are necessary and distract us from our stated mission:
To promote a high quality muskellunge sport fishery;
To support selected conservation practices based on scientific merit and carried out by authorized federal and state agencies;
To promote muskellunge research;
To establish hatcheries and rearing ponds and introduce the species into suitable waters;
To support the abatement of water pollution;
To maintain records of habits, growth, and range of species;
To disseminate muskellunge information;
To promote good fellowship and sportsmanship among men, women and children;
How does the magazine and the costs involved get us closer to our stated purpose?
Jono
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| I just want to point out that organizations like Trout Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited, Pheasants Forever, Whitetails Unlimited and probably MANY more all have publications none of which are likely to disappear any time soon. About the closest I could find to an organization without much of a magazine presence is Bonefish and Tarpon Trust, which publishes one issue per year.
Interesting discussion. | |
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | sworrall - 3/22/2012 2:07 PM
'no offense to anyone, I'm just sick of hearing the same complaint about the magazine, Yet know one changes anything about their MI membership. Sorry That is just how I feel...'
They still print and publish the magazine whether you personally opt out or not.
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I'm not saying they wont but this is straight off the MI website. If every member of MI went on and opted to only read the online version. Who knows what we could do with the money saved... the more people that do this the more money money gets redirected.
"We hope you enjoy reading MUSKIE Magazine. Each new issue will be available on-line to our members approximately 2 weeks before the printed versions are mailed. If the on-line version is all you need, please contact our Administrative Secretary and ask to have your membership changed to on-line only. This will allow Muskies Inc. to "redirect" some of our printing and mailing expenses to other important projects" - http://www.muskiesinc.org/indy_files/photos.php
Edited by FAT-SKI 3/22/2012 2:35 PM
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| To promote a high quality muskellunge sport fishery;
To support selected conservation practices based on scientific merit and carried out by authorized federal and state agencies;
To promote muskellunge research;
To establish hatcheries and rearing ponds and introduce the species into suitable waters;
To support the abatement of water pollution;
To maintain records of habits, growth, and range of species;
To disseminate muskellunge information;
To promote good fellowship and sportsmanship among men, women and children;
How does the magazine and the costs involved get us closer to our stated purpose?
Jono
Actually, I believe the magazine hits on several of these mission statements. The issue with the mission statements is two-fold: wording and individual interpretation (ties into wording). The wording and your interpretation of HOW to promote or support may not include written word, which is fine and that's your personal opinion to which you're allowed. Qualifying statements like "to promote muskellunge research" with "by providing funding and manpower" sounds like it's what you're wanting. Or "to promote good fellowship and sportsmanship..." through various outings local chapter meetings, fundraisers, and benefits" could be another way to word that statement. Disseminating muskellunge information is most certainly done through the magazine (not sure how that's not obvious). The magazine also promotes research, but it is in written form which you may not agree with. It also promotes fellowship and camaraderie, but in written form which, again, you may not agree with. The point is the magazine accomplishes these things, but clearly individual interpretation of the mission statements and the magazine's role is very different depending on who you talk to.
I see your point and believe there's merit to it (in fact I haven't seen anything I've truly disagreed with to my core anywhere in this thread). I think the issue is whether we're getting a proportional amount of benefit from the magazine relative to its cost. I think the magazine has benefits to the organization, which is likely why the other orgs the above poster pointed out still have magazines themselves. Perhaps there would be a way to scale back the funds apportioned to the magazine. I believe MI is starting to address that by 1) allowing someone to not receive the mag or get an electronic version (unless someone can confirm it, it's pure speculation to say MI has a contract that stipulates a minimum # of mags being published) and 2) reducing the number of issues to 6 per year. | |
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Location: Alexandria, Minnesota | Fat Ski.........I am guess I should have not only said the new younger anglers in my comment, you are right that many of the new muskie angler's in general just don't have the same respect for the fish, as many of the seasoned fishermen do.
I just look back to when I first took up the sport,I wanted to get better at not only catching fish but I wanted to learn how to safely handle them too, and believe me I wasnt very good at either when I first got started. So I joined my local chapter of Muskies Inc here in Alexandria, MN, Not only did I learn how to catch more fish but it really open my eyes to many of the techniques those members used to safely handle the fish and they also were able to teach me how truely limited the resource really was... I owe everything Muskie Fishing has given to me to some of the lessons that were passed on to me by those Muskies Inc Members. Your right we need to focus on the new angler's taking up the sport, so that we can pass on the lessons that we learned to those angler's taking up the sport today. That is something I try to do every chance that I get, fishing up here. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | not sure about trout or pheasants, but DU is a business and far from a non-profit. like comparing an apple to a camel ... | |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | Guest:
To use your analogy of DU, Trout and other's is not apples to apples. Their production costs for publications are spread across exponentially larger membership and represent a small percentage of their total annual budget. MI in contrast has the magazine representing a significant percentage of the total budget.
We all need to stop defending MI. Nobody is bashing MI that I have seen. What they are doing is having a reasonable discussion about changing how International operates and spends the small available budget to meet or shall I say does not meet its stated objectives.
If you use the numbers Jono presented and try to answer his question, imagine what could be done with a $350,000 annual budget if invested differently, I'll give you an idea of what that could mean. Look at the projects that the Hugh Becker Foundation has been able to make possible in a very short time with ~$100,000 available annually.
We need to think of International having the potential to be less government, provide only what the chapters need across all so they can be successful in their local markets. If International was only chasing the National sponsors, Federal grants, providing insurance, rolling up the chapters tax/financials, running electronic communications, they could give all but the costs for these centralized functions back to the chapters. The chapters know better how to use that money to make the biggest impact on their local programs/needs. If/when that begins to happen, membership will skyrocket because potential members will directly see the impact of their dues in their backyard. | |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | I tried to stay out of this but the "force" is strong in Luke Chinewalker. At risk of getting fired from my volunteer position in the international here goes... Solution - shut down most of the international! Hang on, bear with me so I can explain. I’ve been involved in a couple positions in the international and started off with a passion to make things happen thanks to Perry Smith. However, that passion was soon gone and it didn’t take long to see there was little willingness to make the changes needed for the organization to become better. It’s easy to get fed up with an organization that is happy with the status quo and not willing to tell the members “this is what we MUST do to be successful going forward”. The international doesn't really "do" anything currently except publish a magazine and provide tax/insurance benefits. IMO the international shouldn’t do anything EXCEPT provide tax/insurance benefits. Before anyone has a fit about this just stop to think about what the chapters really need. The chapters don't need the magazine, in fact I'm pretty certain they all publish their own newsletter and many likely do it via the web. Any international news could be placed in the chapter newsletters and/or an online magazine. The chapters do all of the work and raise all of the money to fund their projects. What if M-Inc. could run on 1/3 of that $35? Each year provide 1/3 in grants to chapters and 1/3 goes into building the fund that should have been able to provide grants years ago. I believe many people would feel better about their $35 that currently seems to go into the bucket with a hole in the bottom. The chapters don't need to say they are part of Muskies, Inc., I would argue there are very few cases when a chapter has done something great where their affiliation with Muskies, Inc. had anything to do with their success. Local and regional affiliations and alliances are much more important. My opinion is that the international needs to be restructured and doesn’t need to think they can have a hand in everything. Providing the things chapters need to be successful should be the only priority and mission of the international. (Edit: Wow Chinewalker, I was typing this as you were posting yours... great minds - eh?)
Edited by Will Schultz 3/22/2012 3:19 PM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | pot-stirrer! | |
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| Luke and Jon,
I hadn't thought of the size of the organizations. Not sure it's like comparing apples to camels, but I'd accept apples to oranges 
All really good discussion. This is one of the most civil discussions about a potentially charged issue I've seen on this board. | |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | not about size
business (DU)
non-profit (MI)
enormous difference, not comparable | |
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| I look at what our club could do with $35/member/year... Membership is at 310 I believe. Even if we could get half of that money, that's still $5,000. You can buy quite a few fingerlings with $5,000. You can put together some nice raffles, or up the payouts for the spring and fall tournaments, all of which would encourage more people to join, and put more butts in the seats at our monthly meetings. More members + more butts in the seats = more money for the club = better fishing opportunities for everyone. Seems the problem many have with joining is NOT the $35, but what happens to the $35. | |
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Location: Eau Claire, WI | Guest, re: magazine and the purpose statement. I think your last paragraph is spot on. The ROI of the magazine advancing the purpose is out of whack. Too much for too little.
Luke and Will, a big "Like" to your statements.
I don't see anyone bashing M.I. here either. I think its a great discussion and I'm glad I'm participating in it.
I will always belong to M.I., I just want to see it succeed well into the future and the road we are on might not be the best.
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | EA
3 pages into the second thread and you are getting it. Now we have to get the others to "get it".
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Posts: 462
Location: Syracuse, Indiana | If you want change, then become involved with MI (not just at the chapter level - BTW - "international" as a term for MI is out). Communicate with your chapter representatives. Communicate with the Regional representatives. Communicate with the officers. I enjoy this board, but it is not the MI officer educational forum. A common complaint is a lack of information from MI. Communication works both ways. As to the magazine, be aware that it has always been far and away the number one member benefit in every poll to which I have been privy. It took a bylaw change to reduce the number of issues. The MI structure has certain institutional inertia, but change is happening (a few years ago board meetings involved nearly 100 people, all type A personalities. Ever try herding cats?  ). Will's comments are intriguing, kind of like limiting the role of the federal government, or restructuring MI. However, there are other benefits of MI as a whole (for example - "Dave's Independent Muskie Club" lacks the political oomph of an MI Chapter). Both MI as an institution and the individual chapters have their place. We need to continue to work together to counter external attacks to our sport, and grow the fishery. The mission statement has lofty - but worthy - goals. No individual nor any individual chapter could do it all. MI's present leadership is responsive. Communicate with them! Off my soapbox. Dave Cates | |
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Posts: 321
| I think the main thing here, is that is okay to not belong and plenty of non-members do great things for the muskie world. If MI wants more members, then they will have to change to become more appealing to those who fish and care for muskie. H | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'I enjoy this board, but it is not the MI officer educational forum.'
But it is currently where a valid and worthy conversation is taking place between those who are members, and importantly, those who are not.
You and I have talked about this in the past; perhaps this discussion may let a bit of badly needed fresh air into the communication process you spoke to in your post. | |
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| FAT-SKI - 3/22/2012 1:45 PM
Shep - 3/22/2012 1:15 PM
Not enough tourney anglers to address the membership issue. I'd wager that a good portion of the tourney anglers are already MI members.
As Steve said, NPAA is a good organization, that does alot of good stuff for the kids. Good idea for MI to partner up with this group.
Oh, and get rid of the print magazine. It's a money pit.
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Do you actually believe that the magazine is the reason that kids aren't joining? As it says on the MI website you can opt out of getting the magazine when you sign up... (1 )... (2 )... if you want to save them money then you can send an e-mail to them stating that you only want the online version and not the paper version. It actually says it will help save money. But know one does these things, they just choose to complain about them. I guess it is easier....? So there are things that can be done by people if they choose to take those routes.
Did I say that I believe the magazine is the reason kids aren't joining? No. Please try to understand what is being stated by the critics here.
The magazine is a money pit. It's unnecessary, and while it doesn't keep new members from joining, it also doesn't do much to encourage new membership. Until the magazine is discontinued, MI will never have the kinds of funds it takes in todays' economy to realize any real impact on the resources.
You want to encourage new mem\bership, you have to change the culture of MI. Most members will stay on no matter, but to get the younger generations interested, you need to offer something current, relevant, challenging, and dynamic.
Look, MI has been doing basically the same thing since its inception. Embrace the fact that change is good and necessary. Encourage new ideas from new members. Reach out to other organizations, partner up with them, and work together to educate and excite the young anglers and their parents.
FAT-SKI - 3/22/2012 1:45 PM
no offense to anyone, I'm just sick of hearing the same complaint about the magazine, Yet know one changes anything about their MI membership. Sorry That is just how I feel...
I changed something about my membership. I let it lapse about a year ago. I don't think until this thread came up, I ever once thought about the MI Magazine, and that I missed receiving it.
I figure I'll renew my membership when the current free time user has moved on. Until then, I'll watch, and offer suggestions on how to help MI ease into today's environment. | |
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| esoxaddict - 3/22/2012 3:52 PM
Seems the problem many have with joining is NOT the $35, but what happens to the $35.
I think he's got it! | |
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| Homer - 3/22/2012 6:04 PM
I think the main thing here, is that is okay to not belong and plenty of non-members do great things for the muskie world. If MI wants more members, then they will have to change to become more appealing to those who fish and care for muskie. H
Yes! | |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | dcates - 3/22/2012 5:41 PM
If you want change, then become involved with MI (not just at the chapter level - BTW - "international" as a term for MI is out). Communicate with your chapter representatives. Communicate with the Regional representatives. Communicate with the officers. I enjoy this board, but it is not the MI officer educational forum. A common complaint is a lack of information from MI. Communication works both ways. As to the magazine, be aware that it has always been far and away the number one member benefit in every poll to which I have been privy. It took a bylaw change to reduce the number of issues. The MI structure has certain institutional inertia, but change is happening (a few years ago board meetings involved nearly 100 people, all type A personalities. Ever try herding cats? ). Will's comments are intriguing, kind of like limiting the role of the federal government, or restructuring MI. However, there are other benefits of MI as a whole (for example - "Dave's Independent Muskie Club" lacks the political oomph of an MI Chapter). Both MI as an institution and the individual chapters have their place. We need to continue to work together to counter external attacks to our sport, and grow the fishery. The mission statement has lofty - but worthy - goals. No individual nor any individual chapter could do it all. MI's present leadership is responsive. Communicate with them! Off my soapbox. Dave Cates
Dave.....seriously? Communication on this subject has been attempted countless times over many years and it always falls on deaf ears. Let's not attempt to position this as if this topic is somehow new or that we are not all aware of the elephant in the room.
Sure this may not be the MI forum and that's the real value. Non-members want to know what's going on and they do not have access in the MI forums. Your comments sound a lot like closed door sessions our congress has as somehow being acceptable when they are not. Anything that can't be talked about in an open forum should be questioned for that very reason.
That get involved pitch is so stale and one of the many primary reasons people are not renewing and having angst about joining. Many people cannot or do not want to get involved but do want to see what they can give, their money, go to a good cause that they can see benefit from. What MI does now above the chapter level does not accomplish that but it does consume ALL of the $35 membership fee.
I can't believe we are going to continue to hang on the number one member benefit determined by a poll excuse as to why keep the magazine. It may be the number one benefit to those that are members but what about the much bigger target group of non-members? There comes a time to realize that the old ways are not as good as new ways even if there is some pain to get there. Ask the guys at Sony what they think about their decision to try to fight electronic music. | |
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Location: Lino Lakes, MN | Fat-Ski,
If last month was your first meeting I would not expect many to "spill there guts " after just meeting you. I reccomend going to the meetings - as many as you can become a regular at the meetings and guy's will warm to you. Just like work, scool ect. If you can get there early have a bite to eat and mingle a little more. You will pick up your share of knowledge - everone looks for a little give and take.
I think that the Twin Cities chapter also has a leage night. Fish as many nights as you can and offer up rides or look for partners to fish the different lakes. It is a good way to get to know the guy's that fish locally.
Our North Metro Chapter has a sharred outing on Lake of the Woods with the T.C. chapter and it is a heck of a deal.
I don't know of anyone who has been somewhat involved in the chapters many activities that did not enjoy themselves. Our chapters League night has been a very good way for the group to get to know each other. We usually talked at the end of the night and shared what was working and what did not. You also get a clue as to the better times fo the year to fish some of the local waters.
Many of the positives that can come from attending chapter meetings, league nights, summer picknicks ect and banquets can all be done without being a member. If you put in a little effort, plant a seed or 10 they will start to grow and you will "gain" something out of this effort- New friends, possible long time fishing pals and pick up knowledge about these fish. As a side benefit the 10% discount you get at Thorn Brothers and several other local shops will more than make up for your membership dues.
I myself hate the politics in Muskies Inc, Boy Scouts of America, PTA ect ect ect. show up and participate don't be afraid to say hello to anyone and introduce yourself as a new member to anyone you meet. I think you will get something out of it.
I attend the North Metro meetings and am a member there. I also attended last months Twin Cities chapter meeting and had a good time. I will attend their April meeting as well.
Good Luck, Have fun and share the sport with someone new this year
Steve Sorgenfrei | |
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished |
Hey Sorgy -
I am not looking for a guy with 25 years experience to come up to me and tell me all of the good spots I can catch a 50" class fish. I'm not looking for peoples trade secrets. When I first walked into the meeting there was one man, that came right up to me and introduced himself. Very nice guy! He was talking to me about the meeting and other things directly related to MI. He was the reason I joined MI. I'm not trying to get people to "spill the beans" in the first ten minutes of meeting them. What I am asking for, is when I go and talk to one of the other members and they look at me like "whos this guy" and trust me not everyone did that. I met some extremely nice people at the meeting and will contiue to go to all that I can. I understand like you said I have to earn my merit and I'm not disagreeing with you. But it is the lack of warmth in body language that bothers me. I had plenty of kinda messed up experiences over the last few years to gauge a big enough opinion on SOME of the "older generation" of musky guys. I'm also not stupid and am also a fisherman, I don't give out my best spots either... none of us do (until friendship is deveploed maybe). However I believe that part of the problem for some of the younger guys or the other guys who are just new to the sport is to give a little extra maybe. I believe sincerity and honesty can be huge. Like I said i'm not asking for your 50" spot, but a little warmth and comraderie goes a long way. The information I am interested in from the senior members is everything being talked about on the thread. i.e what can I do to help better MI? what can I do to help get more young guys involved with MI? What steps can I take to help our fisheries? These are the things I want to know, and the list goes on.
I am a member and will be for as long as I can hold a rod. Not all of the "older generation" are bad and I don't want people to think that is what I am getting at. But what you have to keep in mind, is no matter how many good things you do, people only remember the negative. Unfortenatly that is the way our world is. Hopefully one day we can all work together to change it a little peice at a time.
With the best regards
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Location: Bemidji, Lake Vermilion | Sorgy, you're awesome! I know you can siddle up to any ole stranger and be buddies in mear minutes.
I felt very left out at the first few meetings I attended also. Seems to be a common issue. I stuck with it and am super glad I did, have met some awesome guys and continue to improve in all aspects of muskie fishing from techniques to equipment to having new fishing partners.
I'm the secretary of the chapter I'm in now, and feelings like I got at my first few meetings are not happening anymore for new people as long as I'm involved. | |
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| To me whining about what some international is doing with my dues is like arguing with a waitress over how she'll spend the tip I give her. Its like anything, its given me more than I could ever ask for, If you dont like it, or like what your chapter is focused on get involved and work for something better. I dont worry about the international I worry about funding the local chapter and all the chapters in MN. When one chapter is succeeding its makes all of us look good and work harder. When one is faltering I feel its up to all of us to support them and work together. I know Muskies inc people from all across the state, they work very hard for the fish and their members, they support the connective tissue that bonds all of our states chapters together through communication, honesty, discussion and friendship. If the $#!+ hits the fan I call a MI member 9 outta 10 times, number 10's gonna be for Mom's apple pie recipe. My life is better through the friends and most importantly the mentors I have in Muskies inc. get that anywhere else and sign me up there too. Member # 54-41850 BTW I hate politics too, unfortunately I found out that is the biggest threat to our fish we love.
Edited by Muskiefool 3/23/2012 12:04 AM
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Maybe I just have a different philosophy than some, but to me you don't walk away from an organization that has done, and continues to do so much for the muskie fishery because you don't agree with some internal workings.
Things don't change when the guys who want it to change leave, and the guys left are the ones that don't see the reasons to change.
For people to actually say they won't join because they don't like the magazine, or think it's a waste are looking for an excuse not to participate.
To take a stand against all that the organization does for the muskie fishery, and muskie fishermen, by not joining over issues that you can't control unless you participate in the membership to me doesn't make sense.
John Skarie
FM Chapter | |
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Posts: 347
Location: eagle river,wis | Things don't change when the guys who want it to change leave, and the guys left are the ones that don't see the reasons to change.
John,maybe its time the ones left should step down and let the ones who want change to step up and try to improve it.The international will never get any better until they hire an executive directer and run this conservation group as a business.
jeff miller
region 2 rep. | |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Muskiefool - 3/22/2012 11:59 PM
To me whining about what some international is doing with my dues is like arguing with a waitress over how she'll spend the tip I give her. QUOTE]
But if I found out the tip i give her goes to drugs, I wouldnt go back to that establishment. When I know that my money goes to International, where it essentially gets wasted, I choose not to spend that money.
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| I personally like see the magazine as a benefit of membership, I really don’t see anyone here defending it. The magazine provides a bigger picture of the Musky fishing world. I believe it helps unify all of the local chapters to a common purpose. I am happy to read printed material, after spending 8-9 hours a day staring at a computer for work the last thing I want to do is read a magazine online. In my head (my personal value) the breakdown of my $35 membership is as follows: $12 for the magazine ($2 per issue, use to be worth $24), $8 for the lure log and website access, $5 for overhead (processing the applications, insurance, and other organizational fees), and then the remainder actually used for funding of programs. The website holds great value with the wealth of information it contains. I also use the membership to get 10% off at our local tackle store so in my head I make out on the membership.
I usually drop at least $15 into the raffles at our local member meetings, and $60-$100 at the fundraiser. I know that this money will be used locally for our stocking program. The amount of information I get from the local chapter members is worth every dollar I give to the club.
This is all coming from a younger member, 30, who has been a member for 3 years. I think the Keyes Outdoors advertising is worth a try for a year. It at least gets the word out. I would have never joined or known about the club if I didn’t meet a friend of a friend of a friend at a party.
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| I've been a member of Muskie,Inc. since 1982. Besides all the fishery benefits, club outings, tournaments, etc,etc,etc. you people are missing the biggest benefit of this organization (including its faults) and that is the FRIENDSHIPS one aquires as a member. Working together on common causes is the joy of what has bonded us together. I would have never met the people I have as life long friends if it wasn't for this organization. | |
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| Is membership growing, stagnant or declining at this point. I guess that would answer if MI needs to change or not. | |
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Posts: 566
Location: Elgin, IL | Guest - 3/23/2012 8:17 AM
Maybe I just have a different philosophy than some, but to me you don't walk away from an organization that has done, and continues to do so much for the muskie fishery because you don't agree with some internal workings.
For people to actually say they won't join because they don't like the magazine, or think it's a waste are looking for an excuse not to participate.
To take a stand against all that the organization does for the muskie fishery, and muskie fishermen, by not joining over issues that you can't control unless you participate in the membership to me doesn't make sense.
John Skarie
FM Chapter
This is so well put John. It's only $35. If only $15 goes toward local stocking, that's still $15 that wouldn't go there otherwise.
I belong to Chapter 39, great bunch of folks who do a great job for the kids here, and the fishery. You couldn't find a better group of folks trying to make this thing better. The Fox Chain here in Illinois has some quality fish in it, despite the pressure it gets and the abuse. I believe that the SOB Chapter has done a great job here also.
While I get a chance to fish The Chain once in awhile, I'm proud to see how well it's doing with our help. MI may not be perfect....but I sure am glad to know the folks behind what's going on here locally. Nice job guys and gals.
Mark Hoerich
I also wanted to add that it's been a really good discussion, thanks. Good to see all sides, and maybe it will help.
Edited by Northwind Mark 3/23/2012 10:50 AM
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Location: Syracuse, Indiana | Steve, Joe - I have no issue with the "fresh air", but don't know whether every MI officer reads this board. I am merely suggesting further communication as a good thing. Many people whine, but few get involved (not just in MI, but throughout life). If those wanting change refuse to get involved (or as Jeff stated "step down"), and if those wanting "the old ways" would take control, what do you think the outcome would be? Jeff - "The international will never get any better until they hire an executive directer and run this conservation group as a business." AMEN! Dave Cates
Edited by dcates 3/23/2012 11:08 AM
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Location: Lino Lakes, MN | Fat- Ski,
I hope to meet up with you at the next T.C. Chapter meeting.
Thrax,
I will definitly see you on the water- Maybee share the boat for a few hours as well. Are you coming down for the MN Muskie Expo?
As someone mentioned- FRIENDASHIPS are one of the biggest benefits of being a member / or working closely with the chapters. You know if they are attending muskies inc meetings they have a sharred interest with you.
Good Luck
Steve | |
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Posts: 897
| You don't need to be a member of International to get all the benefits of local chapters. Basically, as I see it, what you get from International is a magazine (which I'm pretty indifferent about), access to the Lunge Log (doesn't matter to me as I figure there's more misinformation in there than truth), and an outdated website. As far as moving the sport forward, I see that being more the result of local chapters and a few devoted people than a result of International exerting influence.
So, for me, the only incentive to joining international is to say I'm a member of Muskies, Inc., International. To me, my "petty" desire to not give a cent to Mike Keyes far outweighs that "benefit" in my mind. I will contribute and participate at the local level and leave it at that until Keyes is no longer sponsored by International.
Good discussion, though.
Chris | |
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| I think most of us agree that the $35 could be better spent, and that support from International is marginal at best. I've heard time and time again that everything that gets accomplished gets accomplished at the club level. That said, I can't see the $35 being a deal breaker for current or potential new members. When you've got 300 lures hanging in your garage at $20/pop, 4-5 combos at $500 each, a $40k boat, and a $40k truck, $200 rain gear, plus all the electronics and tools, and you spend thousands a gear on gas and trips, looking at what happens to $35 and using that as a reason not to join MI? Really? How many times has $35 would up in a tree or at the bottom of the lake? How many times has $35 vanished at the bar, leaving you with nothing to show for it but a hangover?
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| yah pretty funny imo guys would use $35 as the excuse not to join but every one of those guys has at least 10 x that in lures that never see the water year in and year out
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | The Executive Director approach was something I initially supported but later realized this represents a chicken and the egg challenge that will prohibit someone being successful with that role at MI the way the budget is structured today.
Specifically, a Director would have to do some major fundraising to meet his/her personal and organizational objectives. They would be competing with conservation organizations for the same dollars, say DU, Trout, etc. The funds they seek come from granting sources that require the organization to demonstrate how the funds have been used historically to meet the organizations objective and the organization has to meet a low ratio of their annual budget being directed to administrative expense. A good ratio will be well into the 90% range. I don't know our budget because we keep it a big secret but I suspect our ratio would be well under 20% and undesirable to granting organizations. So if this person can’t raise funds, they can’t pay their own salary and MI doesn’t have funds available to staff the role with current budget.
There is a way to get the role staffed though, albeit at a later date. All we have to do is dramatically reduce the expenses in the International budget and reallocate those dollars to projects that meet MI organizational objectives. The best way to do that would be to provide it as qualifying grants to chapters. After a few years of this under the belt, MI would have achieved a track record of meeting objectives with a low administrative expense ratio, thereby enabling MI to qualify for grants and fund an Executive Director role. To achieve this, the old guard will have to give up their sacred cow in order to drastically reduce expenses.
As I said in an earlier post, with this approach you will get a big increase in membership ( the first substantial increase in many years) from those that don’t want to join today because they can’t see their $35 membership delivering on the organizations objectives.
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| Northwind Mark - 3/23/2012 10:41 AM
Guest - 3/23/2012 8:17 AM
Maybe I just have a different philosophy than some, but to me you don't walk away from an organization that has done, and continues to do so much for the muskie fishery because you don't agree with some internal workings.
For people to actually say they won't join because they don't like the magazine, or think it's a waste are looking for an excuse not to participate.
To take a stand against all that the organization does for the muskie fishery, and muskie fishermen, by not joining over issues that you can't control unless you participate in the membership to me doesn't make sense.
John Skarie
FM Chapter
This is so well put John. It's only $35. If only $15 goes toward local stocking, that's still $15 that wouldn't go there otherwise.
Mark Hoerich
I also wanted to add that it's been a really good discussion, thanks. Good to see all sides, and maybe it will help.
Problem is that hardly any of the $35 goes to any kind of local support. And electing not to take the magazine for $10 less in dues only makes this worse. It's pretty much a fixed cost to publish the magazine, so no savings to MI if you don't take the mag. | |
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Sorgy - 3/23/2012 11:15 AM
Fat- Ski,
I hope to meet up with you at the next T.C. Chapter meeting.
Thrax,
I will definitly see you on the water- Maybee share the boat for a few hours as well. Are you coming down for the MN Muskie Expo?
As someone mentioned- FRIENDASHIPS are one of the biggest benefits of being a member / or working closely with the chapters. You know if they are attending muskies inc meetings they have a sharred interest with you.
Good Luck
Steve
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Hey Steve -
I tried to PM you but it didn't work for some reason. I will be at both the expo and the next TC meeting.
thanks
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Posts: 566
Location: Elgin, IL |
"Problem is that hardly any of the $35 goes to any kind of local support."
Shep, is that fact or a guess? I honestly don't know myself. I don't ask.
I only know what I see. An MI Club with really good folks, doing a great job with youth outings, fund raisers, and a really good healthy local muskie population.
And I like that. I don't help out enough myself....I hope to change that soon.
I really doubt that these things happen without the club or it's members.
Edited by Northwind Mark 3/23/2012 12:38 PM
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| FAT-SKI
hang out at the bar upstairs after the TC meeting thats where you get all the hot topic info 'unplugged' | |
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| Northwind Mark - 3/23/2012 12:37 PM
"Problem is that hardly any of the $35 goes to any kind of local support."
Shep, is that fact or a guess? I honestly don't know myself. I don't ask.
I only know what I see. An MI Club with really good folks, doing a great job with youth outings, fund raisers, and a really good healthy local muskie population.
And I like that. I don't help out enough myself....I hope to change that soon.
I really doubt that these things happen without the club or it's members.
Ask your local officers how much they get back from your dues.
In the Milw. Chapter, all of our local support came from our fund raisers. When we asked the Intl for help funding Dr. Anderson's Pewaukee Lake Muskie Research, we were turned down. Not 1 cent.
Being a MI member is great. It can be very rewarding, you meet lots of new fishing partners and friends, can learn alot, and join in some interesting and rewarding projects. But it's the local chapters that make it what it is. IMO.
Edited by Shep 3/23/2012 1:20 PM
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Location: Okoboji | bn - 3/23/2012 11:53 AM
yah pretty funny imo guys would use $35 as the excuse not to join but every one of those guys has at least 10 x that in lures that never see the water year in and year out
funny stuff.
it's their buisness dont worry about how they spend their money that is some of the problem is the "only 35 dollars comment" | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | My personal point is and will be that membership isn't necessary for me to feel good about personally supporting a local chapter. If all membership gets me is the magazine and website access, and a significant amount of the money goes where it's going now, I'll choose to give the $35 to the chapter I choose in tickets for a raffle, or other support at a meeting. And I may give that chapter quite a bit more in time, effort, dollars, and editorial support.
Guilt tripping me won't work. I believe in Muskies Inc, I believe in the clubs, and I believe the organization is effective as individual clubs...but I also believe the International 'model' is archaic and is busted, and needs repair. I believe Print is dying and cable TV won't be replacing the advertising ROI anytime soon...look at the recent implosion of NAFC and the decline of In Fish as an indicator.
I'll give my money to the chapter or chapters of my choice.
It isn't the amount of money at all. It's what I choose to spend it on within the Muskies Inc organization.
And I have absolutely no intention of joining so I can run for office. No time, and little interest in the process as a result. The VAST number of membership share the same or similar stance, heck, darned few even show up for meetings by ratio. I respect and admire those who do have the time and use it working within MI. Doesn't mean that's me at this point in my life.
One last thing, what I saw happen the other day convinced me the disconnect is pretty severe. A promotional company paid by MI publicly and with intent to harm blasts another company that frequently donates to Chapters fund raisers and is listed as a gold supporter of MI, and no comment or apology public or private from either the folks who paid the promotional company(MI International), or the company itself when the conversation blew up. A PR snafu that will cost MI members and already has, and no one says or does a thing to apologize or smooth the waters. I checked. I even received comments from MI members that we should not allow folks to address the situation here. Odd that I also got the exact opposite, demanding we DO encourage debate from the same folks when it was Native American spearing that was the issue at hand. The source of both issues was Facebook. Why bring this up? Because it was out there, lots of folks saw it, harm to a company that benefits MI was the intent and that from a company that is paid MI funds to promote MI, and no one has even checked to see how angry/hurt/ indifferent the target of the rant is. It can't be undone, but an apology might be in order and then maybe those of us less than happy with this can see past it. I have no personal issues with any of the folks involved, but will stand by the concept that if MI is going to invest in an advertising/promotional relationship using a portion of 'our' money, they need to manage that PR program throughout the relationship, answer for any untoward behavior, and reap the fallout with the benefits. That's just good business.
Dave, I agree, perhaps all the MI officers don't visit here. However, I know how many muskie anglers DO visit here yearly, and it's multiples of more than 50 times the entire MI membership in absolute unique visitors. What's said gets read by a significant sample of the Muskie angling public, and recruiting here isn't a bad idea. There' s 328 folks online here right now. It's a pretty significant community.
We'd be happy to support the efforts of the International, and will never charge MI a penny. No one has ever asked, and in fact, we've offered, more than once. | |
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Location: Syracuse, Indiana | sworrall - 3/23/2012 2:34 PM My personal point is and will be that membership isn't necessary for me to feel good about personally supporting a local chapter. If all membership gets me is the magazine and website access, and a significant amount of the money goes where it's going now, I'll choose to give the $35 to the chapter I choose in tickets for a raffle, or other support at a meeting. And I may give that chapter quite a bit more in time, effort, dollars, and editorial support. While I disagree with your premise as to the totality of the benefit of being an MI member, I absolutely respect your right to choose where you spend your money. To the extent you support your local chapter(s), thank you. Guilt tripping me won't work. I believe in Muskies Inc, I believe in the clubs, and I believe the organization is effective as individual clubs...but I also believe the International 'model' is archaic and is busted, and needs repair. I believe Print is dying and cable TV won't be replacing the advertising ROI anytime soon...look at the recent implosion of NAFC and the decline of In Fish as an indicator. I'll give my money to the chapter or chapters of my choice. It isn't the amount of money at all. It's what I choose to spend it on within the Muskies Inc organization. And I have absolutely no intention of joining so I can run for office. No time, and little interest in the process as a result. The VAST number of membership share the same or similar stance, heck, darned few even show up for meetings by ratio. Busted? There are folks working on that. Thankfully. Let me tell you, change is tough to accomplish. That said, unless numbers have changed dramatically in the last couple of years, the vast majority of MI members want the magazine. Does MI disenfranchise most of our members to move forward, or try to work to move them along too? Interesting question. I respect and admire those who do have the time and use it working within MI. Doesn't mean that's me at this point in my life. One last thing, what I saw happen the other day convinced me the disconnect is pretty severe. A promotional company paid by MI publicly and with intent to harm blasts another company that frequently donates to Chapters fund raisers and is listed as a gold supporter of MI, and no comment or apology public or private from either the folks who paid the promotional company(MI International), or the company itself when the conversation blew up. A PR snafu that will cost MI members and already has, and no one says or does a thing to apologize or smooth the waters. I checked. I even received comments from MI members that we should not allow folks to address the situation here. Odd that I also got the exact opposite, demanding we DO encourage debate from the same folks when it was Native American spearing that was the issue at hand. The source of both issues was Facebook. I am regularly chastised by my 25-year-old son for not checking Facebook. Evidence of change, I know. That said, I have no clue what you are referencing. Dave, I agree, perhaps all the MI officers don't visit here. However, I know how many muskie anglers DO visit here yearly, and it's multiples of more than 50 times the entire MI membership in absolute unique visitors. What's said gets read by a significant sample of the Muskie angling public, and recruiting here isn't a bad idea. There' s 328 folks online here right now. It's a pretty significant community. We'd be happy to support the effort, and will never charge MI a penny. No one has ever asked, and in fact, we've offered, more than once. I'd love M1st to be a bigger player in the MI world. That said, I'm not a player anymore (and that's ok - time for others to have the reins). I do find the present set of officers responsive to my inquiries. I suggest communicating with them(and for them to communicate with you) and seeing if anything beneficial for the resource can be achieved. Were I more computer savvy, this post would be more "readable". There is a reason I employ secretaries. Dave Cates
Edited by dcates 3/23/2012 2:53 PM
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Location: 31 | Luke_Chinewalker - 3/23/2012 12:01 PM I don't know our budget because we keep it a big secret but I suspect our ratio would be well under 20% and undesirable to granting organizations. How's it going Joe, why is the budget kept secret?
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Location: Syracuse, Indiana | Jerry, Joe. - The budget is not a secret. It is available to members on the web site. Committees. Finance. | |
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| I heard that recent evidence shows the MI international was the second gunman on JFK!!! | |
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| They say all publicity is good...H | |
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| Ask yourself who's doing the work to get more lakes, support the research, do the political legwork so you dont have too, stock fish, line up boots on the ground for conservation of Muskie waters, protect the fishery, support education for students, get interest from young people though tournaments and going out to them and showing them the value of fish and clean water, devoting countless hours to the very thing you say you love, protecting habitat; spawning areas and lakeshore, working with watershed groups and other conservation groups, putting people in the Capitol so your fish dont end up on a stick, and doing all this through their own hard work and generosity. Is it You? Is it something you support? Is a Magazine or something less important all it takes for you to be against all of the work MI does? Is a bucktail more important than the fish? The international through Dave Narsett and Keven Richards made many phone calls and spread the word when MN was having legislative problem a couple years ago, I was incredible appreciative as everyone should be. How important, valuable and powerful is MI and the MMPA? They with so few members have created the best Muskie fishery in the US and arguably the world. How? because we dont let things like this keep us from doing the work to make your trips on the water in MN potentially the best there has ever been. I dont see MI chapters or the MMPA peeing their money away, every dollar you spend at the Banquets and Tournaments goes to make things better; the $35.00 part is nothing to me when I see what guys like Frank Schneider jr., Dave Overland, Al Skaar, Hugh Becker, George Selke and many of the posters have given through Muskies Inc and the MMPA on this thread. Its a vehicle. Just think if all of us were in tow. If your not a MI member, I would say you can feel very good about donating to your local chapter and at least getting them some support in the bank or on the ground. Everyone is looking for a 8 second ride, good luck. We just keep moving the picnic table with the glacier; and the results are in the bottom of your net.
Edited by Muskiefool 3/23/2012 6:48 PM
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | bn - 3/23/2012 11:53 AM
yah pretty funny imo guys would use $35 as the excuse not to join but every one of those guys has at least 10 x that in lures that never see the water year in and year out
funny stuff.
I figure this was aimed at me. It's not the money, I have the money. It's a statement about who I choose to give it to. I do fully plan (and please hold me to this) to find a way to donate money and even some time (I love the FRV kids fishing derby) to the club that I was a part of. | |
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| That really wasn't directed at anyone in particular, Andrew. I came to that realization after a pretty lengthy discussion with some of our board members, where this same topic was discussed. On the way home I kept thinking "Why am I giving MI $35/year for them to spend it all on a magazine that nobody wants, when I could give another $35 to the club and actually see it put to use for things like the kids fishing derby, the youth outings, the Shabbona muskie rescue, the awards banquet, or any number of other things that are more in line with MI's objectives, that actually bring new people to the sport and provide better fishing opportunities?!" I was contemplating letting my membership lapse after that. Then I came home and looked around the basement and I thought... "Rods, reels, net, tools, rain gear, tackle boxes, lures on top of lures on top of lures... And I'm worried about $35?" | |
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