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Posts: 165
Location: Minnesota | Does anyone know if there is any scientific data to support UV painting of baits for large predatory fish. I found quite a few on smaller pelagic fish that primarily forage on phytoplankton and small invertebrates use UV light to locate prey, but nothing on larger fish? Just curious with the new dawgs and such coming out.
thanks in advance
Dan |
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Posts: 1405
Location: Detroit River | It's just another sales gimmick IMO, just like the red hook craze. I've used the UV coating on my powder coated walleye jigs & I see no difference in my catch rate if I'm using a chartreuse jig or a chartreuse jig with the UV coating.
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Posts: 32892
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | There's been some pretty solid evidence offered that esox see in the UV spectrum. |
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Location: madison wisconsin | Is there a link you have Steve? Would like to read. Thanks |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Ya, Steve.... I'd also like to see and read "the solid evidence" that backs this claim. Thanks,
Jerome |
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Location: Appleton,WI | Where have all the U.V. painted musky blades been? |
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Posts: 134
Location: Central Wi | I thrid the reading info, would just like to know how and why it works...
UV Blades, I like that idea... |
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| Top H2O - 1/25/2012 12:31 AM
Ya, Steve.... I'd also like to see and read "the solid evidence" that backs this claim. Thanks,
Jerome
same thing here,and please no studies that have been sponsored by the guys who claim those solid ''evidence''
jk |
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | They have done similar studies on walleye, deer, and other game. Biologist can look at the physical makeup of the eyes receptors; types, shapes, counts, etc. It's not an impossible task like many would think. |
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Posts: 32892
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Exactly.
Dr. Jerry Bucholtz ( a pretty smart guy and a heck of a muskie angler) studied the retina of the Esox, and a structure that indicates UV perception ( if I remember correctly, it was a tri-pyramid like structure) was observed, strongly indicating that the fish see in the UV spectrum. They are also able to see color, unlike Whitetails. There's also a protein that is present in the retina of critters that see in the UV, and more recent science that allows for protein analysis of the fish's retina have tested out to have the necessary protein present.
http://fishandboat.com/pafish/fishhtms/chap1.htm
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/204/14/2517.full.pdf
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/02/ultraviolet-fish-face/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_in_fishes
http://midcurrent.com/science/fish-eyesight-does-color-matter/
http://www.halibut.net/What-Fish-See.htm
http://uvfacts.com/index_files/Page381.htm
There's plenty more. Use your search engine.
'same thing here,and please no studies that have been sponsored by the guys who claim those solid ''evidence''
jk'
I have absolutely no idea what this means. Look around and study the subject a bit, plenty to read from those who have no horse in the fishing lure race, if that's your point.
This isn't exactly 'breaking news' either. The UV perception by fishes discussion has been going on for at least a dozen years.
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| Muskies having certain receptors is not evidence they're used in any meaningful way, especially in an animal with a highly adapted lateral line. The UV receptors could be vestigial or an evolutionary dead-end just as easily. I'm waiting for proof it matters before jumping on the latest bandwagon. |
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Posts: 32892
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That is addressed in some of the literature linked here, in a nutshell answering why some fishes have eyes at all. It's well known muskies are sight feeders, that is not disputed anywhere I can find, and is widely supported in most of the available literature. I remember when all the unread masses challenged the Whitetail UV perception literature, until they found out why UV enhancing laundry detergent was responsible for their camo not being camo.
UV does much more most muskie anglers bought into a long time ago. Otherwise, you would not have many firetiger lures in the box...
I personally don't much care if they can or can't see in the UV spectrum, but believe they can based on what I have read and discussed with some folks who should know. I'm not sure if it has a thing to do with successful predation on most of the muskies food group, not sure what, if any surface on any of the prey identifies in the UV spectrum. Big difference in absorption/reflection of UV, by the way.
I know they can see black ALL the time. Pretty much gets it done for me... |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | What a cool discussion. So, from a manufacturing point of view "colors catch customers" but (example) would a UV perch Grandma catch more fish than a similar perch color Grandma painted in non-UV paint? Kind of an easy experiment to run IMO. You need to troll two identical baits side by side (maybe about 3'-4' a part from each other, one UV and the other the same color but painted in non-UV paint. To help the experiment you would need to troll 4 lures (2 on each side of the boat) and alter the UV on the outside on one side and then the UV on the inside on the other side passing the same structure back and forth so each set of lures gets their time closer to the structure and further away, etc.... Ideally you would do this in heavily musky concentrated waters and for about 8-12 hours over 5-10 days or until you get at least n=20+ musky boated. I am not the best with statistics but this should give you a good R squared value to work with. IMO anything over a 0.80 would be significant for this study. Also, the more musky you boat the better as this will increase your stats confidence. Now, who has 10 days to spend fishing only trolling 4 baits?  Sounds like a fun trip to LOTW for a few weeks! I would almost bet this study has been done by some big bass and/or walleye lure manufacturers but is the data public? I have access to about every scientific journal article in every language in the world. I will see what I can find over lunch next week.
James |
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Location: Grand Rapids MN | Only issue James is there are to many other uncontrollable factors plus there is no advantage to UV in that situation since fish can see colors in daylight. You would have to be in an environment where UV spectrum is more predominant than the rest of the light spectrum such as deeper water or early mornings and late evenings (near dark). Then maybe over time a pattern or trend may emerge.
Like anything else there's no guarantee but all this is doing is taking advantage of what's available. We know muskies do utilize their sight (as do deer even thou they have great noses and hearing they still use it; as Steve was eluding to earlier) and that muskies have the capabilities if seeing UV; plus we know UV is available longer throughout the day and that it penetrates deeper into the water. So why not take advantage? I you think it's BS then don't buy it. This whole thing of "prove it" won't amount to much because none of us has the expertise or capabilities to proving it. To me I see the point but I'm not going to say it will make a lick of difference or not; cause I can't. |
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Location: Land of the Musky | Targa01, Good points! If the fishermen kept good logs for morning, daytime, evening and night (moon-no moon) conditions that would help out the study a lot but then (IMO) you would need a lot more mucky boated. So, I only know of a few guys who boat 100+ fish in a year and that took them all year. This study is for the retired musky fisherman with a few years on their hands I for one don't have room to add more colors UV or not to my inventory. I must say it is a nice catch though for an overstocked market place right now. I bet at the shows the "UV" baits are selling! For me I am 90% sure colors sell customers and 10% may trigger additional strikes but vibration and profile are king. |
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| definetly an interesting discussion. my take is regardless if fish see in uv or not if running uv baits gives you more confidence than non uv baits then run uv baits. if you dont buy into uv dont run them. run what gives you confidence and a positive attitude i think that would put far more fish in your boat than lure color and finish. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Sooooooo,...... What the Heck,????? Do I need to buy all Lures going forward, with UV. paint in order to put more fish in the boat?????????
What the @#$%,... You mean to tell me that we can go to the moon,Create life in a test tube, Pay more tax's, and get a sex change, but we just now are figuring out that a certain type of paint on a lure will put more Muskies in the boat???????????? Sheeeeesshhhh! |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | guest - 1/25/2012 8:54 PM
definetly an interesting discussion. my take is regardless if fish see in uv or not if running uv baits gives you more confidence than non uv baits then run uv baits. if you dont buy into uv dont run them. run what gives you confidence and a positive attitude i think that would put far more fish in your boat than lure color and finish.
Sorry guest, But B.S.
Confidence and a positive attitude doesn't put more fish in the boat !
I don't know how many times that I went out before dawn with a positive attitude an a lot of confidence and 12hrs later came back skunked.
Personally, I think that the action, and vibration of a lure trumps the color most of the time.
Jerome |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Jerome,
We never will know it all. I sure as heck won't, anyway. But I will keep trying to learn as much as I can, sorta like a sponge, I guess. Not THAT Sponge, no one can equal that individual. No one.
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Posts: 165
Location: Minnesota | Thanks for those links Steve. Definitely interesting stuff.
I will continue my quest for more information along the lines that we know skis have the ability to see in UV, but do they actually use it while hunting? The small pelagic bait fish use the UV spectrum to locate prey, as plankton are tiny, but do muskies use it. It wouldn't seem to make much difference for muskies when their prey is typically fairly large. I guess in low light conditions it may make a difference. Anyhow thanks for the discussion everyone. It will likely take a couple seasons or two and people using UV baits to get a decent sample to determine if UV improves fishing.
peace |
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Posts: 32892
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Take a look at how deep UV spectrum light penetrates, and how deep the color spectrum penetrates. Keep in mind the different cells in the cones are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
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| Top H2O i would absolutely disagree that confidence and the right attitude dont put more fish in your boat. its the right frame of mind that keeps you focused on those 12 hour days where you aren't seeing anything. if you have the proper mindset you aren't going to miss fish or get surprised because you weren't paying attention. i do however agree that action and profile outweigh color. |
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Posts: 375
| do a search typing in...uv blast...this company has been making uv enhancement products. they make a product that puts a clear hard drying top coat on hardbaits, another for use on softbaits and they even make a powder paint with the uv enhancement built in. i don't know about you, but i think i may have a couple or maybe it's a couple hundred baits that don't have any teeth marks on them yet that may be worth experimenting with... |
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Posts: 582
| i am not buying it. We have been catching fish for years without it. Lets see if the catch rates sky rocket now that UV is available before we spend 1000$ on UV baits. |
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Posts: 165
Location: Minnesota | Its not that we can't catch fish without it, its will it enhance your ability to catch fish?
In reference to double bladed bucktails , we have been catching them on one blade for years, I don't need to go and spend the money on these double bladed baits, now you can't swing a dead cat and hit a fisherman without a double bladed bucktail.
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Posts: 134
Location: Central Wi | So the story is.... Old baits catch fish.... New baits with UV catch fish... Maybe more even??? Doesnt sound like its going to decrease your chances if you decided to buy a new bait with UV but might just help... No one is making you toss your old baits away...
I just wanna sling some musky baits, and put some fish in the boat... Is this winter thing over yet... |
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Posts: 41
| You may already have "UV" lures and not realized it. Test your fluorescent lures by putting them under a blacklight. If they light up they have a UV paint on them. I got this info from Salmon Trout Steelheader Magazine.
Then put these lures under a regular light and see if they have teeth marks and you can draw your own conclusions as to whether muskies see the UV part of the spectrum.
Might make you have more confidence in these lures in stained water given that UV light penetrates further into the water. |
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| Read this link that Steve originally posted. Go to Black Light heading near the bottom.
http://uvfacts.com/index_files/Page381.htm
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| All the muskie bait ads that I've seen for UV are featuring baits that are glowing under a blacklight. Weird.
"Chances are if you see a product glow using a Black light, it is absorbing UV which is the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish. So beware of ANY product that glows using a black light or ANY color photos of product showing UV reflection."
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Posts: 41
| Been wrong before, no big deal. I wish that article would have shown the same lures under blacklight and then again under the UV camera and filters. That would support authors statement. To use the phrase " chances are" it sounds like the author doesn't really know if his statement is true and has not tested it.
I can't say one way or the other but i would like to see proof supporting definitive statements. The author has some very descriptive scientific info but it doesn't fully support his statement about blacklights and UV light.
My mind is open to either theory right now but I need to see some proof. |
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Posts: 41
| This PHD has a different story
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/f/blblacklight.htm |
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| Let’s keep in mind in order to reflect UV light off these UV paints you need to have an energy source. You have two options underwater: 1) Sun and 2) living organism
In terms of UV paints/dyes enhancing night fishing opportunities science would say it is not possible. Need the sun, and while stars produce UV light I cannot find how far it may penetrate into the water. So as far as daytime fishing goes the question becomes how deep can UV rays penetrate in various water clarities. This link would suggest clarity means everything in how much UV light you have available to reflect if any at all.
https://sites.google.com/site/flyonahook/home/fly-tying/colour-1/uv-...
Thus using UV paint/dye in peat-stained water would be a poor choice although it may be marketed as helping you in such waters.
Here is a great article talking about light, and UV light in the ocean. Basically more reassurance that clarity of the water makes all the difference in the world. Keep in mind I am using the word term clarity loosely here. Interesting to also note some organisms absorb UV, or reflect it to help camouflage themselves from predators.
http://www.biology.duke.edu/johnsenlab/pdfs/pubs/oceanus.pdf
It now all boils down to if muskies even use their perceived ability to see in the UV spectrum. Research would suggest not if they spend their times in shallower water where there is lots of sunlight available. Research also suggests if they spend their time where limited light is available then they may use their perceived ability to see in the UV spectrum. Not sure if “fish” can just turn the ability on or off as I take it from information that “fish” either always use it, or not use it at all based on where they live in the water column.
So first you have to have a UV light source available. Next you have to water conditions conducive to allowing the UV light penetrate to the depth the fish are at, then you need to have a fish species that has the ability to see in the UV spectrum, and last but not kleast you need to have a fish that actually uses the ability to see in the UV spectrum. Sure appears you need a lot to fall into place to make the UV fad viable. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | muskyjerk - 1/27/2012 2:33 PM
This PHD has a different story
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/f/blblacklight.htm[/QUO...
What's different about it? Not sure what you mean.
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It's all about light penetration, whether it's UV spectrum or that which we are more familiar with, and understanding what happens to visible spectrum color in water where UV is still viable.
Surface baits..probably not a good idea. Big soft plastics fished mid water column or deep or when visible light is reflected more than UV...maybe not a bad theory, certainly no worse in the visible spectrum than the florescent finishes.
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | OK-So this discussion finally peaked my interest and I took my UV light out in the garage (AKA distribution center - lol). Very cool! I walked around in the dark with the light and about 1/3 of my baits lit up like Christmas trees. Mose of my SuperDs that had positive effects had yellow, orange, and red pigmented plastisols. Many of the painted crankbaits also showed up with the UV light. So, good news is, you probably have already been fishing with UV enhanced baits and never even knew it. It was interesting though as my white shoes glowed like a light bulb but I grabbed a Super Cisco with white paint on it and nothing.
James
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Location: Detroit River | Tackle Industries - 1/28/2012 8:33 PM
OK-So this discussion finally peaked my interest and I took my UV light out in the garage (AKA distribution center - lol). Very cool! I walked around in the dark with the light and about 1/3 of my baits lit up like Christmas trees. Mose of my SuperDs that had positive effects had yellow, orange, and red pigmented plastisols. Many of the painted crankbaits also showed up with the UV light. So, good news is, you probably have already been fishing with UV enhanced baits and never even knew it. It was interesting though as my white shoes glowed like a light bulb but I grabbed a Super Cisco with white paint on it and nothing.
James
The Hunter Orange clothing also reflects UV light. They sell a clothing wash that is supposed to eliminate the UV reflection so that deer don't see you. |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | So, you could dress your lures in tinny blaze orange hunting jackets I smell a new product line. Crankbait jackets! |
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| I find the discussion interesting and humorous that we need proof of UV claims before buying a product. If that was the case we would not have purchased many of our lures. For those interested go for it. |
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Posts: 97
| Ask spencer and keyes outdoors-------------- |
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Posts: 41
| The difference. UV facts claims UV light is absorbed but no mention of returned light, and blacklight not a way to tell if lure reflects UV light. The chemistry site says UV Light is absorbed and then released at a longer wavelength which would be in our visible spectrum and the light flouresces or is flourescent. Most also call the blacklight a UV light.
This raises some more UV paint questions for me. The UV light travels further into the water than visible light and a lure which reflects this light would be easier for fish to see.
Does the lure reflect light at the same wavelenght as UV light or reflect it at our visible spectrum which doesn't travel as far? But would still have increased visibility at a deeper depth because it is acted upon by UV light.
Is fluorescent the goal of a UV lure or is it pure UV reflection? Pure UV would make the lure more visible.
How much do mirror like lures reflect?
Don't forget that moonlight is reflected sunlight. Think about articles in recent years talking about muskie moonlight success with flourescent chartreuse and pink cowgirls.
Sure got my noggin going.
Do bird feathers reflect UV or do they flouresce in a blacklight.
In the end whether it works or not it may just give some of us a little more confidece when we need it on the water.
Too bad the physicists are busy trying to figure out blackholes, dark matter and etc. and not muskies, lures, and UV light. |
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| Not much UV from the moon really since the moon doesn't emit UV, but rather reflects it from the sun. However the stars and galaxies are more important when it comes to UV at night.
Interesting article about UV actually being higher on partly cloudy and hazy days, as well as it mentions a bit about the moon and UV.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2732/are-uv-rays-really-mo...
An article on UV and stars and galaxies.
http://science.hq.nasa.gov/kids/imagers/ems/uv.html
Once again though keep in mind CLARITY of water makes all the difference in whether any UV makes it any kind of distance in the water column.
As far as Spencer and that Keyes show...good marketing. |
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Posts: 390
| So I have heard and read much research and I will finally test some of this speculation next week. I cannot say to what extent musky can visualize UV light but I will be able to prove to the extent to which the bait/paint reflects UV light, if at all.
At the muskie shows all displays were bragging the UV products worked by demonstrating these baits fluoresce under Black light. This proves nothing, there is no black light underwater and further more it simply means it ABSORBS UV light and emits it as visible fluoresce.
I have access to a fluorometer and will check the wavelength of light reflected when UV light is used. THis is the only way to prove reflection of UV light as the Human eye cannot visualize UV light!
sorry for the little rant, but I need to know for myself and I figured others might like the info as well.
I will post my results on this forum when completed. |
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Posts: 390
| The reason the Hunter orange clothing glows is most likely due to chemicals in the detergent. |
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Posts: 41
| bbeaupre, I feel the same way. Coated a lure with spike it UV and fished it yesterday when nothing was biting for me in sunny conditions and clear water ( not bad conditions for me in recent weeks) but nothing changed. Sometimes they just won't bite. I'll keep trying. Silver foil and chrome lures haven't got me muskie strikes in cold water where others have had success (clear water, muddy water, sunny or cloudy conditions). Flourescent chartreuse and orange seem to work best for me in cold water (32-> 50 degrees).
One Spike it rep didn't knot the answer as to what light is reflected by UV coting and other said light is reflected in UV part of spectrum. Both suggested talking to spike it owner to be sure.
Glow appears different from Flourescent under blacklight.
Still not ready to accept or decline UV lures. |
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UV painting