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| What would a "normal" 9" perch do if a large predator pulled up on its hind end as it swam across a bar?? Anybody spent anytime studying or considering this one? My guess is that they don't keep swimming toward a boat or speed up slightly.
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| Well, your question doesn't really require science to answer... but I think you are trying to persuade our answers to include some scientific justification.
I'd have to say that the perch (and other forage) would be better off sitting as still as possible (motionless). Then if the musky doesn't see them (hopefully they are well camouflaged) they should be safe.
A study on the lateral line being discussed on Muskie Central found that the majority of fat head minnows eaten in an experiment happened to be swimming AWAY from the musky at the time of strike initiation. Coincidence?
jlong | |
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| What direction would YOU be swimming if you had a Muskie on your hind end? Only Tom Cruise brings 'em closer on purpose.... | |
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| Last winter at the Milwaukee Chapter Ice Fisheree, my kids and I were fishing on a weed line in about 8 feet. We could see the bottom clearly. I was looking down the hole, watching a bunch of 6-9 inch perch cruise in and out of the weed line. All of a sudden, they scattered.....FAST!! Pretty soon, about a 40 incher came cruising slowly by the hole. Stayed there for about 5 minutes, just below the hole. Then he moved on, slowly. Didn't see, or catch, another fish for 1/2 hour after that.
About an hour later, I heard the daughter squeal with delight. She was in the shanty, and was looking down the hole and saw another musky. I rushed in, just to get a glimpse of a tail, bigger than the first, disappearing beyond the hole. Again, no perch to be seen for a long time.
Now, this doesn't exactly count as a musky right on it's tail, but these perch absolutley went ballistic trying to make a getaway, when these muskies showed up. BTW, the water was very clear that day. Easily saw down to 12+ feet.
Tight lines,
Shep | |
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| FLASHBACK FRIDAY!!! | |
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| The same thing a "normal" woman would do in the same situation...give it a slap + have it thrown out of the bar![;)] [:knockout:] | |
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| I agree with Jlong, most strikes happens as the forage moves, I don't know if this is scientific or not but years ago there used to be a place called aqua-land in Vilas co on hwy K and there used to be about 4 or 5 mukie ponds that you could (I hope PETA is watching)feed frogs to the skis. Once you threw them in either they would start moving or they sat still, the ones that moved got eatten imediately, the ones that sat still didn't get much attention until they did move and then WHAM! frog legs for dinner[:p] | |
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| Chuck, observation is scientific enough for me. Although tossin' frogs to hungry muskies sounds more like entertainment!
I think many years of observation is why DougJ is often quoted saying, "If it moves, its food". It probably really is that simple.
I feel a musky's two dominent senses for feeding/striking are vision and touch (lateral line). A moving object is easier to detect (like when a deer moves in the woods with a nice blanket of snow on the ground) and a moving object displaces water. The lateral line detects water displacement. So, when a preyfish swims it is easier to see and easier to "feel".... making it a better target.
Problem with the perch example is that they often still need to FIN for balance... and that is enough movement for a musky to pick up on. So, if the musky REALLY wants to eat that perch... it is a gonner. Its best option would be to PRAY and hope for the best.[:halo:] | |
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| A lone perch swimming on a bar is destined to be a Muskie snack. Schooling fish scatter when a predator approaches. But they generally scatter in a uniform fashion, i.e., they try to maintain a school presence by staying with school mates. The loners are the ones that get eaten. I have observed this many times while scuba diving. Sometimes they break into smaller schools or actually form a hole around the predetor. If the school is big enough it can engulf the predator, because the outer fish can no longer see it, but the ones on the inside can, so they push out to what they seem to feel is a safe distance. Really pretty wild to be completely surrounded by a very large school of fish. The only way to get your self oriented is to relate to the fish or watch your air bubbles.
Al Warner
www.itsyourchoicetocatchemandletemgo.com | |
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| Simple...still as can be!
I am sure a lot of you have had the experience of the very active sucker that when a muskie swam up and eye balled it he stiffened up more than me at a young age watching the movie Weird Science.....
Had this happen more than once...the sucker would go so stiff and not move that I swear his gill plates were not even moving!
Cory
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| Once again Al makes a great observation. The schooling tendency of forage fish is not only visual camouflage.... but lateral line camouflage as well.
Perhaps this is why when fishing open water muskies it is better to cast your lure off to the sides of the baitfish schools? Yet another example of.... an EASY TARGET. | |
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| FSF:
First how's the new boat? I liked it! What happening on Green River?
Minnesota lets us residents do what is know as winter spearing for northerns (not muskies) in a dark house. There is lots of emotions involved here, and I won't get into that, but I've spent a lot of time staring into a 3' square hole in the ice.
It's a lot like having a 3' and bigger Aqua-View, if you have a nice dark house, and clear water you can see everything that swims in at depths up to 15 feet or so.
Anyway here's what I would see, I haven't done this for a number of years.
First you would have some sort of a attractor down that was suppose to draw the northern to the hole. This would be either a decoy, usually a fish like deal about 6"-12" long, with fins so it would swim around if you pulled on the string that held it. At times a hookless Daredevle that we would work or just let sit. Many times a sucker (8"-12") that was hooked with a safety pin type deal with no hooks would be used, many times we would use more than one type of attractor.
At times schools of perch would come through the hole, and the would just paddle around without a worry in the world. If they would suddenly scatter (usually all in the same general direction) you could bet that a northern wasn't far behind. I don't think I ever saw a time when the perch didn't get "out of dodge" when a northern was close, so that even though being still might be a good option, it looks like fleeing is even better.
But here's some more interesting stuff:
Like I said the decoys where made to swim around in circles if you worked them. If you would be working them almost always the northerns would come in a 100 MPH and make an attempt at hitting the decoy, sometimes they were successful, and they would shake they heads the beat the band. After a few seconds of shacking their heads they would seem to figure out that this thing isn't good to eat and usually just drop the decoy and sit there for a few seconds and look at the thing and them slowly paddle out of the hole kind of shaking their heads, or they would drop they decoy and dissapear, and then come back shortly and stare at the thing. If you didn't work the decoy (just let it sit still or slowly turning around) the fish would usually come in slowly are sit about a foot away from the decoy and stare at it. Very rarely would they actually attack the decoy, but they would sit and look at it for a long time. Usually if you moved the decoy after a fish was looking at it for a long time it would spook them.
Sucker decoys would always try to get away, and the northerns where pretty successful in catching them. They would grab ahold and not let go. Once they got hold of the sucker at times you could pull on the string to the point that you get the northern right up to the bottom of the ice.
There is no doubt that if a prey fish could remain still it might be the best course of action, but from what I've seen fleeing seems to be the prefered method of escape.
Doug Johnson
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| Great post Doug!
But I have one question for that little perch..How big does he think he is?
How does a little perch know that he is smaller then the pike and is going to be eaten by a pike that does not know he is even bigger then the perch.
Exsample: 40 inch Pike eating a 40" Pike, it happens! | |
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| Doug,
This winter we watched our dead smelt on camera. we would have pike come up to them and stare as you had said. Some of the pike would grab them and give them a little shake, WITHOUT POPPPING THE FLAG, I couldn't believe that.
All I know is after seeing that and reading your post, you can bet your #$% next year I will be jigging!!!!!!!!! [:devil:] | |
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| Great response DougJ! I think you are right that the best option is to escape or vacate before Mr. Esox is too close.... however this question didn't offer that as an option since the muskie was already on the perch's tail. Thus, plan B.
I still think movement is a MAJOR attractant for the musky and a major alert signal to flee for the perch. If the musky is moving... the perch have an awareness of its presence (they have a lateral line too). Probably why muskies also incorporate ambush as a hunting tactic. I also find it interesting that you said a decoy was much more effective at attracting pike if you moved it around. Your observations are invaluable.... no matter how we interpret them.
Mr. Smith... I'm not sure if a perch or muskie knows how big they are themselves... but the lateral line certainly tells them how big the objects around them are (a thing called svenning). That is how a perch knows to get out of dodge before the beast arrives. Perhaps the fish can tell how big they are by how much water moves around them as THEY swim???? Not sure, but I know you are a student of Mr. Worrall and your question is biased towards his belief system that fish are just plain stupid. I agree that they can't reason... but you gotta admit that the lateral line is one sophisticated sense the we humans can't even fully understand. Perhaps fish are more advanced than humans????[:halo:] | |
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| "But I know you are a student of Mr. Worrall and your question is biased towards his belief system that fish are just plain stupid". by jlong
Student, heck no. Him and I disagree on many many things, but we both enjoy muskie fishing and providing a site to learn from.
You made a good point jlong, the bigger wave length picked up'd on the lateral line from the larger preditor might be a good way to explain how they know who is bigger.
But then again, maybe its just years of breeding that has giving them the instintive behavior. My point is....they dont have a mirror to see themselves in. | |
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| LOL, I know what you meant Jason. I was just waiting for someone to say that "Muskies are dumber than a box of rocks" and I felt you were setting the stage for that response since you are friends with Worrall and well aware of his viewpoint (even if you don't agree with it). But, when it comes to the ability to reason, that statment is totally true. However, I just wanted to point out that fish have some pretty sophisticated equipment. I don't think a fish needs a MIRROR or needs to see itself to know how big it is.
Now, how do I explain a 36 inch muskie trying to eat a 36 inch muskie? AAAhhhh... give me a few minutes.
As for why a 12 inch pike will take a swat at a 10 inch Jake.... I honestly believe it is an instinctive response to a common stimulous (they can't help themselves). However, if my theory about fish knowing their size (or the size of other fish around them) based on lateral line signals has any merit.... my small pike hitting a big jake theory is swiss cheese. A Big Jake should feel much LARGER than it really is. That bait moves a lot of water! But, the sensitivity of the lateral line is proportionate to the fishes size... so maybe those small pike are "numb" to some of the water displacement and the Jake feels smaller? I just don't know... the lateral line is so darn complicated that it is impossible for us to fully understand how a fish uses it. Therefore, I claim to have NO answers to this question.... just a bunch of silly ideas. | |
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| I learned a LOT about muskie feeding behavior from a pair of Leech Lake strain muskies that I kept in an aquarium at home last year. Most of which will likely end up in an issue of Esox Angler sometime soon. One thing that has been brought up in this thread really got me thinking while I was observing the little slimy food processors.
My muskies were fed fathead minnows, chubs and goldfish from the time I got them, at about 3" until they were handed over to the Game and Parks commission to be stocked. On a number of occasions the minnows I bought varied in size, and some were close to being the same size as the little 'skis. The size of the forage didn't make any difference when it came to feeding moods of the toothy toddlers-all the minnows in the tank got nervous when the muskies showed aggressiveness. The 3" minnows were as scared as the 1"ers. Is it possible that they don't need to know if they are small enough to be eaten, because evolution and the survival of the fittest has imbedded in their tiny brains that they are food, and they should be afraid? Do the minnows, chubs, perch, and suckers of the waterworld somehow know that they are an inferior species, and get a weird vibe when the predators are restless?
We have so much to learn. | |
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| The ability of the fish to 'reason' using the equipment the fish have that allows for sensory input still is largely dependant on the processor.
Muskies, Perch, or other fish do not in a literal sense 'know' anything. The ability to reason is lacking in fish because of the fact there is no cerebral mass present. They simply do not have the 'brains' for it.
The concept of size/spacial relationship is very definitely cognitive.
Most of what has been mentioned here relates to MOVING predators approaching MOVING prey. The reaction of prey class fish to a moving predator I have observed fishing, diving, and in my fish tanks is exactly what has been described in Al and Doug's posts, reinforced by Jamie's.
If the predator is sitting still though, I have seen baitfish swim within inches without any evasive behavior at all, grouping around the predator in a totally oblivious manner. Suddenly, something happens, the predator changes color slightly, seems to awaken, and begin to cruise, and the alarms seem to go off for the prey class fish, which then begin to assume evasive behavior. I have also seen predators approach totally motionless prey, get right up close and personal, and simply sit there for a long period of time. Sometimes they strike, eat the prey, and move on,sometimes seem to 'sample' the prey with a peck in their direction, still other times simply move on without striking. Why??? No idea at all...I agree with Jlong's last post totally in this sense! I have alot of silly ideas, too. All I know is that if I was able to know what I do, and was a Perch of ANY size, I would be living under a rock...WAY under a rock!!
The strike response that causes a fish to try to take prey way too large or hit a bait way too big is exactly that, a response to stimuli. There is no cognitive process there, so it looks pretty stupid because it is. [:bigsmile:] [:bigsmile:] | |
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| 23 years ago I worked for the Iowa Cooperative Fisheries Unit( a grant program) caring for young tiger muskies (8-13 inches)in a lab at Iowa State. This was during the time the state was agressively stocking tigers into most state owned lakes over 100 acres. We fed these guys fathead minnows. I noticed that tigers generally shunned the dead minnows. Quite awhile after agressively feeding (at feeding time) and then lounging around, the tigers would turn on again by slowly pointing into the pack of minnows, ever so slowly creeping them into a corner of the aquarium, singling one out by slowly finning to it, and then slamming the minnow as it tried to escape the corner by going over the top of the tiger. The muskie was striking upwards during all feeding. As soon as the muskie pointed his snout at the minnows, they turned on, broke school heading for the other end of the aquarium.
Is this how muskies and prey react out of the lab-I don't know, but I'm sure many of you do.
All the best,
Don | |
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another flaky science question on perch, suckers a