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| Just a question here but, how much would some one pay if they were to offer a no fish no pay deal for muskies? Terms being that most of your fish are between 35 and 45 inches . | |
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| I've seen that offer before and after this year guides would be broke. | |
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| If the client is Enjoyable to fish with and not complaining the whole time,a guide will sometimes offer a half day for free under these circumstances. Guiding is not an easy job and they Have to get paid In order to make a living. If you're a paying Client, don't complain, Put forth the effort, and take in everything the guide is teaching you. If I caught 35-45" MuskiesZ,I wouldn't Complain. | |
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Posts: 18
| I think they would be broke in the first few weeks of the season. I dedicate about 20-25 days out of the season to fish with guides, and well over half of those days we don't boat a fish. Just because you hire a guide doesn't mean you guaranteed a fish, I'm sure everyone is aware of this. Fishing with a guide is expensive, there's no doubt about it........ But it's more then just catching fish. | |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | My buddy and I went out a few years ago with Jason Hamernick on Mil Lacs. We had no problems paying ~$400 plus a $100 tip and we did not even get a follow. It was a very cold Nov. day and the high was 18F. Getting the opportunity to have one on one time with a hard core musky guide is worth the money even if you do not catch anything IMO. You will learn a lot if you ask questions and listen. Plus it was fun watching Jason slide around on 1" of ice all day  | |
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Location: oswego, il | Obviously an anonymous shot at a guide not named. | |
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Posts: 203
Location: Alexandria, Minnesota | Good luck staying in business with that offer. It crossed my mind a few years ago to make that offer in November but I just figured guys would be pulling there lures away from or trying avoid catching smaller fish, just so they would not have to pay me. Factor in the cost of Advertising, Boat Gas, Insurance, Equipment, Capts License, and possibly bait and a guy would be broke in just a few short months.
Edited by Dave Williamson 11/29/2011 2:36 PM
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Posts: 8824
| Considering that starting a guide business is like taking out a second mortgage? Between boat payments, truck payments, having to buy enough gear to outfit two othr anglers, having to replace that gear when it wears out, breaks, or winds up on the bottom of a lake, insurance, gas, boat repairs, etc. I'd have to question why anyone who is trying to make a living would offer to work for no pay, especially when the inital investment just to get started is probably $100,000 or more.
I know that wasn't the question. But I think guide fees are what they are because that's what it costs to run a guide business. The guys I know (and there are many) who are guiding full time, are either A. poor, or B. Made their money somewhere else and are guiding because they love it.
I sure wouldn't want to try making a living at it. You figure $350/day, and you might book 200 days in your best year ever. That's $70,000. Think about that for a moment. Most years are proably close to 150 days, but let's pretend it's 200 days. WWhat can you afford on $70k? Probably a nice truck and a nice boat, and plenty of gear. But what about a place to live? A wife? A family? Maybe a vacation once a year? Probably not. | |
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Location: Smith Creek | If you can't live on 70k a year you need to start a budget. Heck at 70k I could afford 2 houses. | |
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Posts: 633
| The problem with the $70K is you have to pay all your expenses out of that, along with paying taxes on that amount. You have to pay all Fed, and State taxes, along with both sides of FICA. That $70K can get chopped down to $35k or less pretty quick. | |
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Posts: 1145
| esoxaddict - 11/29/2011 2:51 PM
WWhat can you afford on $70k? Probably a nice truck and a nice boat, and plenty of gear. But what about a place to live? A wife? A family? Maybe a vacation once a year? Probably not.
This statement tells a lot about the individual. Maybe I'm wrong but I would guess the majority of people on this board make less than 70K/year. (I know I do)
Lol. I can't say anything more but just laugh.
Maybe that is another big factor in why people hire guides. They have too much money. For a guy like myself, $350 for a day of fishing equates to at least 10 fishing trips for me.
BTW, not everyone owns a $40K+ Ranger, nor do they need to in order to be a guide.
Sorry EA, I can't disagree more with your post. I was shocked reading that. It made me a little sick actually.
Edited by MartinTD 11/29/2011 3:27 PM
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Posts: 8824
| You can live just fine on $70k. (depending on where you live) But can you afford a boat, and a truck to pull that boat, and enough gear to outfit a guide service? Could you then afford to repair and maintain all of that when it breaks because you're fishing 200 days a year?
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Posts: 8824
| Martin, you can disagree all you want, but let me ask you this:
Do you know any guides? Have you ever looked at how and where they live, or asked them if they have any money left over at the end of the month? | |
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Posts: 1145
| esoxaddict - 11/29/2011 2:51 PM
The guys I know (and there are many ) who are guiding full time, are either A. poor, or B. Made their money somewhere else and are guiding because they love it.
QUOTE]
Probably a true statement. They obviously have to make something doing it too though. Most of the guides I know have to work full time jobs to make it. They guide part time simply beacuse they love to be on the water and sharing the experience with others.
Either way you look at, 70K+ = you're rich, great person lol. | |
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Posts: 233
Location: Iowa |
I'm guessing your tax bill wouldn't even be close to that. By the time you write off all of your expenses. Probably one of the major benefits of be a guide, is the money that most of us blow on a truck, boat, gas, and equipment just to fish, a guide can write off.
Its still no money making deal and I seriously doubt any muskie guide is grossing 70k a year.
Jeremy
Edited by jwelch 11/29/2011 4:00 PM
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| $70K a year for a guide is a ridiculous amount of money. Most guys with a good job in a specialized field don't make that kind of money. $70K is 70K regardless of what career you are in.
At 70K a year, hell 50K a year, I would take up guiding full time in a heart beat and not think twice. Being equivalent to a normal job that would equate to an est. $24 an hour, 40 hour week, to hit the 50K number. Lots of people would kill for that wage.
Guide fees are what they are. The guides set what they feel is reasonable. Doubt insurance, taxes, etc... is taken into account to what they charge a day. Usually the larger name guides set the precedence on what they will charge, and the rest follow suit. | |
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Posts: 1145
| Really, all of the guides I know work full time (or close to) jobs to pay bills. Guide fees are basically supplemental income.
I'm not saying they're rich either, but none of the guides I know (5-6 locally) are struggling. They're doing better than a lot a people. | |
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Posts: 619
| a good portion of the income is take by the cost of gas.. you have to drive to the lake and pay for boat gas... when gas is close to $4 i would imagine its pretty tough to make much money to survive. even if it is a 30 mile one way, they have already spent $24 on gas and then figure in boat gas, that really dips in to the profit. | |
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Posts: 8824
| Martin, you just made my point - the guides you know are doing well because they have TWO jobs. If they were relying on their guide business alone, I doubt many of them would be able to eat. | |
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Location: The desert | MartinTD - 11/29/2011 2:51 PM
Really, all of the guides I know work full time (or close to) jobs to pay bills. Guide fees are basically supplemental income.
I'm not saying they're rich either, but none of the guides I know (5-6 locally) are struggling. They're doing better than a lot a people.
Probably because they have 2 incomes....... | |
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Posts: 1145
| esoxaddict - 11/29/2011 2:51 PM
WWhat can you afford on $70k? Probably a nice truck and a nice boat, and plenty of gear. But what about a place to live? A wife? A family? Maybe a vacation once a year? Probably not.
This was really the only problem I had. I know you aren't making that PP. Do you still have a place to live? A wife (to be)? A family?
HAHAHa
And you think startig a guide business costs 100K? "Like taking out a 2nd mortgage." | |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | MartinTD - 11/29/2011 3:09 PM
esoxaddict - 11/29/2011 2:51 PM
WWhat can you afford on $70k? Probably a nice truck and a nice boat, and plenty of gear. But what about a place to live? A wife? A family? Maybe a vacation once a year? Probably not.
This was really the only problem I had. I know you aren't making that PP. Do you still have a place to live? A wife (to be )? A family?
HAHAHa
What does this post even mean? | |
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Posts: 667
Location: Roscoe IL | I know for a fact one makes over $100k a year with their line of tackle they sell on the side. That said, I would conside him to be a top 10 Muskie guide in Wisconsin. The variables on the income if just guiding are difficult to determine, but I can't imagine it's more than half of that. The tackle must be generating a very good portion of that through out the year. Either way, passion and love of the work would be a huge factor to pursue that. No catch no pay is a very risky sales pitch, I would still pay $350 at min if we got skunked. A full day should be in the $400 to $450 range for him and his boat, and a good tip would be in order if he did everyting possible to get us on fish. Split thart with you buddy and it's no so bad.. It's always nice to listen to them tell you about the lake and the structure your fishing, Luckly I have not had a bad experience with a Muskie guide to date, all have been worth every penny. | |
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Posts: 1145
| Pointerpride102 - 11/29/2011 4:11 PM
MartinTD - 11/29/2011 3:09 PM
esoxaddict - 11/29/2011 2:51 PM
WWhat can you afford on $70k? Probably a nice truck and a nice boat, and plenty of gear. But what about a place to live? A wife? A family? Maybe a vacation once a year? Probably not.
This was really the only problem I had. I know you aren't making that PP. Do you still have a place to live? A wife (to be )? A family?
HAHAHa
What does this post even mean?
About the same as your last 100 posts PP. Why get involved?
The point is trying to make EA realize how ridicoulous his post was. I thought you were smarter than that PP. Don't bother responding 20 times like you always do, I'm signing off now and this will all be erased soon enough. | |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | MartinTD - 11/29/2011 3:16 PM
Pointerpride102 - 11/29/2011 4:11 PM
MartinTD - 11/29/2011 3:09 PM
esoxaddict - 11/29/2011 2:51 PM
WWhat can you afford on $70k? Probably a nice truck and a nice boat, and plenty of gear. But what about a place to live? A wife? A family? Maybe a vacation once a year? Probably not.
This was really the only problem I had. I know you aren't making that PP. Do you still have a place to live? A wife (to be )? A family?
HAHAHa
What does this post even mean?
About the same as your last 100 posts PP. Why get involved?
The point is trying to make EA realize how ridicoulous his post was. I thought you were smarter than that PP. Don't bother responding 20 times like you always do, I'm signing off now and this will all be erased soon enough.
Actually we both pointed out a flaw in your logic. The relatively few guides you know all have full time jobs to pay the bills, and guide for supplementary income. Thus, they obviously feel that they cannot make enough money to live off of by guiding alone. | |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Really, getting bent out of shape over guides fees again....
I start the day out and run anywhere from 8-30 miles to the lake with my truck and boat. I will burn about about 5 gals of gas a day in my truck, if we aren't lake jumping. Roughly $20 in truck gas.
Fishing a normal day on the waters I fish I use about 12 gals a day, roughly $48 in boat gas.
My insurance because it is a business is much more expensive than typical boat insurance, lets say I guide 50 days a year, its an additional $25 a day to guide for insurance.
A typical day I usually lose a couple leaders to clients, as theirs are inadequate $5 a pop, probably a bait every other trip $10 a trip, and occasionally a reelful of line for a client that is using junk $5. I need to replace at least two rod and reel setups a year, which works out to $12 a day.
I need to maintain an operating website, $8 a day advertise $8 a day, not to mention the free trips given away to good causes.
I figure the additional 50 days a year on the water costs me an additional $500 a year in boat maintenance, stuff breaks, $10 a day.
Lets pretend that's all the expenses for the day, I charge $325, and I have out of pocketed $156.00. That leaves $169 to go toward my boat and I for a thirteen hour day (8am-9pm). $13 an hour.
Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. I too have a full time job that grants me great flexibility during fishing season to be able to take people out fishing. I truly enjoy doing it, the smiles in fish pictures are priceless and some of the friendships I have will be lifelong. Please don't think its making me rich though, that's not why we do it. | |
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Location: The desert | What is the flat rate for a guided beaver outing? | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Norm offers that as a surprise bonus. The Beaver is usually surprised way more than Norm. | |
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Posts: 2059
| I think EA post makes a lot of sense .....How many businesses can operate on 70K gross revenue? I doubt many muskie guides NET 20k per year from guiding! trolling motors, batteries, big motors, reels, rods...they all break/ wear out. | |
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Posts: 619
| I went on a guide outing 2 yrs ago in FL near Punta Gorda...we just stayed in kind of bay area for sea trout and smaller fish...$500 for 4 hrs and the guide had another guy waiting to go out when we got back...now that is making money. The guy maybe had a little more expensive boat - probably around $80k for the boat. | |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Slow Rollin - 11/29/2011 6:30 PM
I went on a guide outing 2 yrs ago in FL near Punta Gorda...we just stayed in kind of bay area for sea trout and smaller fish...$500 for 4 hrs and the guide had another guy waiting to go out when we got back...now that is making money. The guy maybe had a little more expensive boat - probably around $80k for the boat.
I wonder what his insurance was like? Do they charge more for ocean faring vessels?
Got to figure his gear and maintenance costs are a bit higher too. | |
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| Exox addict did not say a guide would net $70,000 but rather that would be the gross revenue from a dream season. Out of that would come all the expenses, boat, motor, gas, truck, insurance for same, liability insurance and so on. If he does not purchase liability insurance, one slip by a clumsy client will cost him everything he owns. Also, because the guide is self employed he would be paying FICA to SS.
I would guess that on a gross of $70,000, you would be doing very well to net $35,000. Then from that you would need to pay health insurance. You can get a high deductible plan for $7,000 a year. He still has no life insurance, no disability insurance, dental, etc.
I am guessing those who take the $70,000 figure to be income, not gross revenue before expenses have never been self employed. | |
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Posts: 1023
| MartinTD said:
The point is trying to make EA realize how ridicoulous his post was. I thought you were smarter than that PP. Don't bother responding 20 times like you always do, I'm signing off now and this will all be erased soon enough.
Come on!!!!!
Your posts are ridiculous!
That is not $70 000 profit!
And if a person works 2 jobs then they should make more than the rest of us "slackers" that only work one - kind of obvious.
Why be offended by EA's post - he wasn't being an elitist. He was just pointing out that it is not easy money. like everyone else - guides need to work for their money.
Landry | |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | North of 8 - 11/29/2011 6:45 PM
I am guessing those who take the $70,000 figure to be income, not gross revenue before expenses have never been self employed.
Or have any concept of how the world works! | |
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Posts: 202
| Guaranteeing muskies is nearly impossible. I am lucky enough to guide on one of the only waters in the world that you actually could do such a thing on and not go broke, Lake St. Clair. This year I ran over 100 trips on St. Clair (I guided in MN 2 months this summer or it would be higher) and I was only skunked 2 times. However the reason I have not done so is two fold. First I do not want to do it change the game plan of the day when we dont have a fish by 2 pm and maybe target smaller fish just to fulfill my guarantee. Second I am worried it would look very cocky and is not worth an extra client or 2. | |
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Posts: 718
| Guiding:
harder than it looks/sounds
less profitable than it seems
very rewarding when it works... | |
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Norm 12 gallons a day up there? Why so much gas lake hopping in oneida? thats about 1.25 times as much as we use in Canada for a long day. Not calling you out bro, just seems like a lotta gas for around here.
Norm brings great points. Guiding fees aren't income. It isn't a 'net' paycheck. All expenses need to be subracted. Think about it. What if you police officers had to buy all your own gas, squad maintenance and donuts? What if you office rats had to buy your own ink cartridges, computers, coffee, and donuts. What if you highway line crews had to buy your own paint, orange barrels and donuts? I think the guys chartering, leaving a boat in the water all summer, running the same lures for the most part, trolled, could stand to make a bit more, but they still pay slip rentals, gas, lure costs, boat maint. and donuts. | |
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Posts: 718
| Spencer has a captains license, guides full time and delivers solid results. | |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Guest - 11/30/2011 5:05 AM
You have been advertising St. Clair trips for two years and did over 100 paying trips there this year? I'm calling BS. Are you licensed for that area?
This is what we call leading with your face. You shouldn't lead with your face. | |
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| Seriously guides do not get rich guiding. They may be rich in what they receive from guiding in terms of relationships and doing what they love but not in money. Only those that can book the majority of the year, and usually need to be multi-species, make decent money. Others have tackle lines to help supplement the income, as well as part time/side jobs to make a go of it if they are full time guides.
To make a statement of pay for production…and you won’t be around too long at all if it is a full time job. Part time job the guide could make it as they have another job. Part timers usually don’t do it for the money.
The arguments of guides needing to charge what they do because off all the equipment, insurances, taxes, etc… just don’t hold much water. All guides are paying extra on really is the additional insurance in case something happens to a client, and advertising costs (minimal in the grand scheme of things). Beyond that any employed individual has similar expenses as a fishing guide. With one exception – I don’t get to deduct what it cost me in gas to get to work like you can as a guide. While guides have a lot of extra equipment expenses they also deduct those on taxes. In addition to that they also get price breaks from manufacturers that others don’t get. So while they may need to get one or two new rigs a year as Norm mentions to replace broken/worn ones they also get those rigs, usually, at a discounted price. Depending on the program they may get them free if on a pro-staff as long as they do particular work for the manufacturer.
Oh I also don’t get to deduct my vehicle payment on taxes like a guide does, or my boat payments. I make a payment out of my income and that’s it. No benefits in that regard to me.
So in the end while guides may need to make more payments in certain areas they also get many perks in terms of discounts and tax breaks. Average Joe mill worker don’t get those breaks. While Guides need to get their own health insurance, so does average Joe. His may be through his company, but now days unless you have a very very good company you are not getting any better insurance from a work plan than you are if you find a plan on your own.
Guiding brings certain headaches that non-guiding brings.
Non-guiding brings certain headaches that guiding brings.
Both have there perks and downfalls.
Guiding is like most other self owned business. You have to be very good at it (well known as a result) to make a decent go of it. You also usually need to be diversified (i.e. tackle business as well as guiding, and being a multi-species guide) to make a good go of it as if you aren’t you will be hurting when there is a lull in the demand of your business.
The thought that a guide will have a rougher go of it on 70K than anyone else making 70K is laughable.
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| Very few accountants on this board. | |
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Posts: 1039
| One good point was made. And that is the tax write offs that guides receive. They can depreciate their boat and write off all expenses. So, their $70k (assumed amount), goes a lot farther than a normal 8-5 70k job.
That being said, most guides I know have second jobs or businesses as well. They guide because they love it and are good at it, which makes jumping in their boat an enjoyable experience.
Lastly, you do have to take into account is the extreme hassle of being a guide. For every good client you have, who can cast and retreive a lure, you will have another client who can't cast, work a lure, or who has a rotten attitude. Those are some long days on the water. I've spent my fair share amount of time in the boat with "bad" clients. I actually figured out that one day I was being paid about $15 per backlash that I picked out of a reel. That is a tough way to make $300. | |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | not meant to be a slight on anyone ... but, a question for anyone who knows?
the Ranger "pro-grams" used to be interest-only and then responsibility to sell it on your own before ponying up to another new one? is this still the case?? it seems i heard the program deals changed in the past couple of years. interest on a boat mortgage can be pretty cheap so you can't assess income to the value of boat being pulled down the road. the principle is at cost? so there is some remaining value that can be sold and then mark-ups for electronics etc..., still a net-cost to the "pro" i would imagine after all is said and done but not a payment that generates any equity to speak of.
bob ... as a car guy and such, what is the "deal" that comes these days? or is it different depending on dealer and particular pro? | |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Very few memo bills left out there, sled. Those who have them are signing a contract to buy the boat, with a delayed payment. Shows up as debt on the credit report, and some lose a little money on the rig in total in order to pay it off in time. One loses a considerable discount to go with the memo bill, too. Either way, it's a debt.
Writing off mileage and expenses isn't going to spread $70K very far. A full time guide, salesman on commissions, or other self employed person will usually spend about 35 to 40% in expenses out of pocket not including the rig and tackle. Guides have to buy ALL their own insurance, pay their own SS taxes, pay a higher bracket of income tax, and take 100% of the risk.
$70 K would be top of the line gross income for most guides, as that would require 140 days at $500 a day. Most charge $375, which would require 186 days or 6 months booked solid. In order to book that many days, one needs to be established and successful, and probably travel to open seasons and waters which layers cost, and still have to find other work during the closed seasons or Ice time. Not that many opportunities in the South, so for most, that is out unless they live there and travel during the warm water periods. And keeping that schedule, every day no matter what in whatever mother nature hands out can get pretty old, and that's a fact.
I have spent most of my career as an independent business owner. It takes a different cat to begin with.
Have a client cancel a week and it REALLY hurts. Have a recession slam the business like 2008 to date, and it's not as rosy as some think. By the way, the Guides are not critiquing OUR jobs, so who the hell are we to critique theirs?
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Posts: 402
Location: Eagle River, WI | The lack of knowledge and general business practices on this thread is shocking. You do realize that when you pay for a service or product that all of that money isn't 100% profit................nevermind. Have a nice day. Go Packers. | |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain |
Norm 12 gallons a day up there? Why so much gas lake hopping in oneida? thats about 1.25 times as much as we use in Canada for a long day. Not calling you out bro, just seems like a lotta gas for around here.
Yes, 12 gallons a day. 200HP running lakes like Pelican and Three lakes most of the time (lots of water) and not doing it at an idle will eat up some gas. This is not inflated by any means. | |
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Posts: 202
| Sorry guys I did not mean to appear cocky that is y I said that I am lucky enough to guide on such an amazing lake like St. Clair. As for the Captains license I am pretty sick of getting called out on that so I have attached a picture. As for the gas I would love it if 12 gallons of gas was a bad day out there. I probably average around 5 per day but have done as much as 35 on a guide trip. However being on a lake that is 420 square miles will do that.
Attachments
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 DSC_0192 (3).jpg (176KB - 184 downloads)
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | nwild - 11/30/2011 11:28 AM
Norm 12 gallons a day up there? Why so much gas lake hopping in oneida? thats about 1.25 times as much as we use in Canada for a long day. Not calling you out bro, just seems like a lotta gas for around here.
Yes, 12 gallons a day. 200HP running lakes like Pelican and Three lakes most of the time (lots of water) and not doing it at an idle will eat up some gas. This is not inflated by any means.
That's clear. Everybody knows it costs money to chase beaver, even if it less expensive to do so in northern Wisconsin.  | |
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Posts: 18
| For the folks out there that are employed by someone else and think they understand the term "tax write off". The term tax write off does one thing and one thing only, it's a deduction from any PROFITS the business makes, reducing any state and federal income tax you may owe at the end of the year.
Things like boats, trucks, trailers etc are based on a depreciation schedule and are not considered an expense. There long term assets that carry a long term liability payment(usually monthly) and are amortized over 5-7 years depending on the item. Things like lures, reels, rods and the like are going to be in a grey area on the tax scheme. If you’re lucky you can do a full 100% deduction on these, but it has to be shown that they are being consumed on a regular basis (1 year or less) otherwise these are considered assets and also have to be deducted on a amortized schedule.
What does all of this mean. Well put simply, if you plan on guiding full time and expect to make a "living" you are sorely mistaken. People are using the dollar amount of 35k a year "take home" quite a bit here. If the margin on service you provide is 50% you are the best business person to walk the earth. Let's run the real numbers.
Nice boat: 50,000.00 (Loan)
Reliable truck: 40,000.00 (Loan)
Fishing gear: 10,000.00 (Came from savings)
--INVESTMENT--
We have our 100k investment.
--EXPENSES--
Business supplies, advertising, fuel, meals, travel, repairs, maintenance, licensing, business insurance, health insurance.
It doesn't matter what business you’re in, the expenses listed above are going consume 40-50% of any income taken in, period.
I.E. we just got done with a great year and generated 70,000 in revenue. With the above mentioned expenses we have (let's use 40%) $42,000 in income (business profit). Chances are you are a S-Corp, which means your yearly business profits roll down into income for you personally. Remember, we haven't taken a salary yet. We look at our amortization schedule for our assets, we currently have 100k in assets that we can depreciate over the next 5-7 years. Let’s use 5 year(s), 100k divided by 5, is 20k a year. Now we only have to pay taxes on 22,000 dollars of income.
Ah, but we didn't have 100k in the bank to buy the new boat and truck, so those are financed at our bank. And yes the yearly expenses listed above don't take into account business equipment and equipment payments although we have already used them in the amortization/deduction schedule.
Truck payment for 60 months: $787.34 at 6.75% interest
-- Interest over the life of the loan, $7240.00 Divided by 5 year depreciation schedule(the time it takes to "write off" the asset) is $1448.00. Interest is tax deductable as well.
Boat payment for 60 months:$984.17 at 6.75% interest
-- Interest over the life of the loan, $9050.00 Divided by 5 year depreciation schedule is $1810.00.
So now we get to deduct the interest payment from our tax burden. 22,000 - 1448 -1810 is $18,742.00. Now we started out with 42,000 in profit and with the "tax write offs" that everyone is so excited about quoting we only have to pay taxes on 18,742.00 dollars of that.
But wait you are self employed, so you have to pay the employer and employee portions of the income you've earned minus your deductions.
Employee:
Federal: 9.4%
Social Security: 4.1%
Medicare: 1.4%
MN withholding (obviously I’m in MN): 4.3%
Employer:
Social Security: 6.2%
Medicare: 1.4%
26.8% of 18,742.00 is $5022.00. That's your yearly taxes between state and federal.
$42,000-$5022.00 equals $36978 profit.
Now we have to pay back the bank, in monthly payments. The truck is 787 dollars and the boat is 984 dollars a month. So for the year we had 21,252 dollars in equipment payments.
So, 36,978 profit after taxes minus 21,252 equals $15,726 dollars..... So if you've read all the way down to this point and want to know what your paycheck is every 2 weeks... here you go, you get to deposit $604.84 into your checking account. Can anyone here live on 604.84 every two weeks with their personal bills?
My intention with this is not to be a smart @ss, but to explain to folks that a sole proprietorship that only generates 70k in revenue every year is unsustainable. It doesn’t matter how good a guide you are, there isn’t enough money available to do it as a full time career unless you have already made your money elsewhere or you have an alternate income. And there is no such “tax break” that can save a doomed business from the get go.
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| If you're gonna slam other people's numbers...well, you're assuming guides report and pay taxes on all of their revenue...and that you need a $50,000 boat and a $40,000 truck to guide...which you do not and most do not have. I'd be willing to bet a good number of the guys running $50k boats are sponsored and don't pay anywhere near that number...and probably end up making a profit when they turn them every year or every other year. I'm not saying guiding is a lucrative business by any means but I think the overhead numbers are a bit inflated/off here. | |
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Location: Brookfield, WI | Early in the thread I though maybe most fishermen did not understand the difference between gross and net. One thing I didn't see mentioned is health insurance. Try on some self-employed health insurance for size.
Kevin | |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'I'd be willing to bet a good number of the guys running $50k boats are sponsored and don't pay anywhere near that number...and probably end up making a profit when they turn them every year or every other year. I'm not saying guiding is a lucrative business by any means but I think the overhead numbers are a bit inflated/off here.'
I'll take that bet. You will lose.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i want a piece of the makin' money on a boat bet too ... LOL, that's a hall-of-famer post right there. | |
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | I've guided for many years. Never made much money and always had another source of income (as do most of the guides I know). The days available on the LOTWs are too few to really make a living at it, or even close. I view it as a cheap way to go fishing. Met many-many great folks. Some of who are now great friends, and almost every one I've fished with are great and fun. I enjoy having folks catch a fish or two and teaching and showing. If I make enough money to pay for the gas, insurance, and a few repairs, for the rest of the year I'm pretty happy, Still I enjoy it all. Meeting new folks and fishing with old time clients is a great way to spent a summer. Doug Johnson | |
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Location: Eagle River, WI | Thank you Kodiak for taking the time to write what I don't have the patience to.
Thank you Whynot for helping me remember why I don't have any patience.
Everybody that owns their own business is rich. That's why I decided to buy my own health insurance for $1100 a month with a $5000 deductible. Don't forget though, I can write it off. I write off everything. At the end of the year, the government sends me a check I have so many write-offs.
People that are posting on here about write offs that are obviously employess and not employers just go to show you that good help is hard to find. If you could really clear 40-50k guiding for muskies, I don't think there would be any place to park at the boat landings around here. | |
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Posts: 18
| Whynot,
Do you really want to be the small business owner that doesn't declare your earnings when the IRS comes around. As far as the numbers, if you can find fault in them I'm willing to listen.
To put things in perspective, I own a small business, know guides that have there own small business(guiding and other ventures), and work with dozens of business owners on a daily basis. If anything, the numbers are too generous on when it comes to what most would be able to put in there pocket at the end of the year. | |
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Location: The desert | Kodiak_HL - 11/30/2011 6:12 PM
Whynot,
Do you really want to be the small business owner that doesn't declare your earnings when the IRS comes around. As far as the numbers, if you can find fault in them I'm willing to listen.
To put things in perspective, I own a small business, know guides that have there own small business(guiding and other ventures), and work with dozens of business owners on a daily basis. If anything, the numbers are too generous on when it comes to what most would be able to put in there pocket at the end of the year.
Logic doesn't do well around here. Great post with that analysis! | |
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| Welldriller, you about summed it up. I have been in banking for many years and most of our customers are small business owners. The way people look at charges shows a complete lack of understanding about what it costs to operate a business. Even at $1,100.00 your health insurance is still cheap compared to some I hear about. I am sure folks look at the time you and a crew spend drilling a well and say, wow, look what they charge per hour. That is about the level of sophistication shown by some on this board regarding income vs revenue. | |
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Location: Kronenwetter, WI | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCZRqH7sRyA
Kodiak---point well taken. | |
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| I knew I should riteoff my boat...anyone have Kramers number I need more details ! | |
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| Yes great analysis Kodiak. However what makes up 40% of business expenses with a guide?
Also 10K in equipment…are they fishing with gold reels and lures? Most have a bunch of lures already and thus rods and reels make up the bulk of the cost. They probably already have a good net, or they get in with someone like Frabill and get a net FREE. So say 8 St. Croix rods at $360 a piece (most expensive). That’s 2880. But wait they get 50% off as they have a deal with St. Croix.. So now that’s only $1440 for top of the line rods. 8 Avid reels at $230. That’s $1840. But wait they also get a break on those with Croix, but not 50%. They get them at cost which is around say $180. So say $1440. Gotta spool them with PP so add another $180 for 1500 yard spool. So that gets us to $3060 for brand new equipment. Lots of guides make their own leaders, but for sake of this let say they have to buy 50 flouro leaders at $10 a piece. Add another $500. Up to $3560. What makes up the rest?
Graphs should be figured into the 50K cost of the boat, as well as the other equipment that makes up the boat. But wait, there is no need to get a 50K boat especially for a newcomer. That could/should be dropped down to say 30K.
If someone goes at guiding the way Kodiak laid out of course they are set up for failure from the start. Most starting out will not get top of the line equipment, top of the line boat, nor a new truck all at once. Ever see the vehicles a lot of guides drive around in? While they may flip boats every year or two it sure seems more like they only flip their trucks every 10!
So while it was nice to see numbers to this by Kodiak, and made clearer what all goes into a small business expense, the numbers are a bit inflated. Not sure I know a guide that threw 100K at starting up a guide business. Kodiak’s theory is good, and again great for painting a clearer picture, but it’s not real world. Neither is thinking guides are booking 200 days a year consistently. Even some of the best guides are struggling to book enough clients to make a go, and that is while not having to worry about 90K in boat and truck payments.
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Where's all this 50% off stuff coming from? There are literally thousands of fishing guides out there, literally a dime a dozen. OFM works with some of the top fishing company Pro Staff out there, and it's a very small number that get free anything OR for that matter, 50% off unless that discount is off suggested list, which is 20% above retail most of the time these days anyway. If they are a Promotional agent for a company like Frabill, then they are required to provide a number of days during the off season and during the season for the client at no charge.
And not every guide that applies gets considered.
Boat discounts for a FULL TIME guide? Most get at best a total discount on the boat at 15% off retail, and need to move the boat every year or every other to hang on to the program. Some may get as deep as 25% in total, but those deals are for competitive anglers and the promotional experts in the field. Once the boat is used for a season, that discount is gone in lot value, and the boat needs to be sold at the same time dealers have product out at rock bottom for not much more....and their specially priced rigs are new.
Head over to the Ice Show this weekend in St Paul, and you will run into a ton of guides and fishing pros working the booths for the big companies.
A contract that pays is even more rare, but there are some out there. A guide that closes a good promotional agreement that pays anything more than $1000 is doing very well indeed. That said, a living can be made in the business. Only a few are making what would be considered really good money, and they work their tail off 360 days a year.
The 'big move' for any guide is to go 'Pro' and search out sponsorship, access to the number of impressions it takes to get those contracts, and get into the competitive arena. The Muskie world's competitive arena is severely limited, so that's out as a career path. Not many companies are going to spend any money on a Pro fishing anything offered out there right now because the ROI will be close to zero due to extremely limited media coverage, and budgets are tighter than hoops on a rain barrel.
If a guide has a boat that is paid for, and a truck that is paid for, and charges $375 a day, which is the upper end in the Muskie world, at least 125 days will need to be booked to make a meager living. If one's spouse works and has family health and life insurance, that gets rid of that worry. I promise you the rest of the business expenses and out of pocket will cost at least 30% of the total, so that leaves $32,812.50 to treat as income. If the guide is the only bread winner, the wife's car better be paid for too, and insurance will shoot the whole thing down. if not, the guide adds $631.00 in pre-tax to the weekly budget. Apply the above math, and that's not very much money for the actual work hours, which average 10 a day.
That's why most guides have another source of income. When I was guiding full time, I also sold boats, trailers, and fishing gear to the retail world. The combined work kept me busy about 350 days a year, allowing me to take a vacation (unpaid) and take Holidays off to spend with the family. I worked almost every weekend in the soft water period, and 3 out of four at shows in the winter. I still do.
I moved into the industry a step at a time and now co-own a business a significant portion of which is dedicated to making sure the ROI our clients need out of their promotional staff is reached or exceeded. Those Guides/Pros who are well versed in the business world can do pretty well, but not while sitting on the couch at home on Saturday.
Any Guide or Pro out there who truly wants to make a decent living at the game should contact Pat Neu at the National professional Anglers Association. The membership is very much worth it, and many companies ask if the prospective promotional person IS a member before consideration is extended. The January NPAA conference is an absolute must; the very folks the Guide will be looking to for a contract are there offering instruction as to how to get it done. Joining and becoming very active will break one out of the very limited scope the Muskie world offers to the average guide.
That's probably a pretty good idea.
http://www.npaa.net
Lots of promotional folks approach OFM almost every day looking for help and sponsorship from our client base. We would be able to recommend more to our client base if they would work as hard at learning the business end of Guiding as they do at catching fish. I have three requests in my inbox this morning. All three lead with something that is close to:
" Good morning. I was hoping your company would sponsor me. I guide and fish some tournaments. I could put your company decal on my boat and use your products. Lots of people will see it. Thank you for your consideration." | |
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| This 50% off comes from known facts. Check with St. Croix and see what they offer for guides (less off), and then someone that is on their pro-staff (more off). Yep you are usually required to work promotional events with many companies, but are paid in merchandise. Often times they also buy your meals at the shows, and pay for your lodging. St. Croix as well as other companies treat guides very well, and the guides are grateful. Other companies don’t give as good of discounts, but still give discounts to guides even if not on a pro-staff. Guides are also very grateful to these companies.
So yes guides have a requirement to help promote products for companies they are pro-staff for. However along with working those shows comes free advertisement for those guides. Once again very grateful for that.
In no way am I saying being a guide is easy, and that they make a killing. It’s in fact tough to be a guide. Let’s not inflate the earning and spending numbers though. I think both have been inflated here for most cases. A fisherman going guide does not go out and get all new equipment, boat, and truck. Also if they are married and do do this, and the wife doesn’t work, it’s probably not a smart thing to do as far as what’s best for the family’s health is concerned. Don’t think there are many married guides that started up without their significant other working. If so they probably were living pretty frugal to begin with which means they did not get top of the line equipment, boat, and truck. In fact they probably just added enough rod and reel set-ups to get by for clients, and bought very little extra stuff. Becoming a guide doesn’t make the angler decide they are rich and need to look like they are rich with that 20’ Ranger and Denali duelly pulling it. If it does, then that guide more than likely doesn’t make it very long.
Thinking guides guide 200+ days a year also isn’t being realistic. Some may and do, but most probably don’t.
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | how is the 401K? | |
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| 401K is a farce. Better off saving your money and investing in land or apt buildings. | |
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Posts: 18
| I didn't pick the numbers, I used what other people posted on this thread.
If your going to book "200" trips a year, a huge majority of them will be with brand new folks. Those new folks are going to want to be in the best boat on the market, with the best electronics and the best gear available. You can disagree with me if you'd like about that point, but a big portion of paying 350-500 dollars for 6-10 hours of guided time is that you can use all the cool stuff out there and not have to pay for it yourself.
As far as the "endorsement" stuff, ask the guides here. The business's in the fishing community are not giving out free stuff, and there also not discounting things like everyone thinks. The people that are getting a free ride on rods, reels, lures, electronics, nets and the like are the top 2% of guys. Most have t.v. programs, or are feachered on the said programs.
Like I mentioned in my post It's not my intention to beat up on guys here. But far, far to many people think that because somone's title is President/CEO of such and such company that there obviously rich. And there are other's, which inspired the post that think that all of us business owners out there have some type of "inside track" when it comes to taxes, and "write offs" and ever other thing and because of that the "little" guy is getting screwed by business owners and they, have to make up the difference. The real truth of it is, and this peees people off because they've been lied to for most of there life, is that business owners and business's themselves pay the lion's share of all taxes collected in this country.
As the old adage goes, it's always greener on the other side..... Until you get to the other side and find out that, that person is getting screwed more then you are. | |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'This 50% off comes from known facts. Check with St. Croix and see what they offer for guides (less off), and then someone that is on their pro-staff (more off). Yep you are usually required to work promotional events with many companies, but are paid in merchandise. Often times they also buy your meals at the shows, and pay for your lodging. St. Croix as well as other companies treat guides very well, and the guides are grateful. Other companies don’t give as good of discounts, but still give discounts to guides even if not on a pro-staff. Guides are also very grateful to these companies. '
As I said, there's a big difference between 'being a guide' and acquiring a promotional contract. And there's darned few of them out there in comparison to the number of Guides who apply. if one is 'paid in merchandise' the pay has to be taxed so the product is earned, and if the person attends a show, they are working that day for no cash expenses paid or not. It's a tradeoff, and many pros have weighed the 'product in exchange for promotion and appearances' option carefully and do not accept the arrangement anymore unless the product is durable goods or electronics, or the appearances and product are part of a larger agreement.
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| sworrall,
I posted the endorsment portion for "Guest's" reply, I didn't notice that you pretty much covered how all of that works. My bad. | |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | 50% off is still 50% you h ave to buy stuff for. I've ordered 5 reels at 50% off before, still hurts when you have to pay the coin. | |
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Posts: 18
| --SUPER GUIDE SERVICE ON A BUDGET--
------THE CONDENSED VERSION--------
Goodwill boat(1981 16' Lund with 50hp Johnson): 4117.11 (Still on a Loan)
Farm truck(1978 Blazer, 'The old rust mobil'e): 1750.84 (Loan)
Fishing gear(2 cowgirls and a bulldog(magnum though)): 50.00 (Came from savings)
--INVESTMENT--
We have our $5917.95 investment.
--EXPENSES--
Business supplies, advertising, fuel, meals, travel, repairs, maintenance, licensing, business insurance, health insurance.
We Still had a steller year: $70,000 - expenses, $42,000 in revenue
Depreciation: $1183.59 per year. (Our flashy muskie magnet setup)
Truck payment for 60 months: $38.95 at 12.0% interest (Our banker wants to know why were financing this)
Boat payment for 60 months:$91.58 still at 12.0% interest
Interest Deduction: $392.76 per year
42,000-1183-392*.268=$10833.90 #*^@ our taxes doubled!
Loan repayment:$42000-10833.90-((91.58*12)+(38.95*12))=$29599.74
200 Guided trips, 6 hours per client on the water, 1 hour round trip drive time, 20 minute prep time on each trip.
1466.66 working hours equals $20.18 an hour.
Although with scenerio, I think the maintenance cost of your business might increase. | |
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| Kodiak_HL - 12/1/2011 4:44 PM
--SUPER GUIDE SERVICE ON A BUDGET--
------THE CONDENSED VERSION--------
[...]
Although with scenerio, I think the maintenance cost of your business might increase.
Maybe a little... You may also have a bit of trouble booking repeat clients. | |
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Posts: 402
Location: Eagle River, WI | Kodiak you just described 4-5 guides from my immediate area. Well done. | |
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Why does anybody care what a guide owns, how much he charges or how they make it?
If you want to pay what they charge, pay it. If you don't, then don't.
Is it any bodies business how they come out at the end of the year, or how much money they have, or if they have another job??
JS | |
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Posts: 2059
| How do you have one million dollars in the bank as a muskie guide? most on this board know................... Start with two million! | |
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Location: Hayward WI | Wow, winternet set in early this season | |
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| Guest - 12/2/2011 1:11 PM
Why does anybody care what a guide owns, how much he charges or how they make it?
If you want to pay what they charge, pay it. If you don't, then don't.
Is it any bodies business how they come out at the end of the year, or how much money they have, or if they have another job??
JS
It's nobody's business what ANYBODY makes. But there's a common misconception that guides get all their gear for free, they get huge discounts on boats and trucks, and then they can just write off every expense, and that somehow means they don't actually have to pay for it. And then people look at the $350/day and think "wow, I wish I made $350/day, that guy must be rich!!"
All of that translates somehow into the conclusion that guides are a ripoff.
No, it's nobody's business what they make, but common sense and a bit of knowledge about what it's really like for someone who guides might just change a few minds. Those who wouldn't hire a guide before because they didn't want to subsidize a rich person, just might do it now, and that benefits everyone. Those who had visions of sugarplums dancing in their heads thinking they were going to go out there and guide and make a great living getting paid to fish could use a good dose of reality before they blow their live savings instead of after.
It was my hope that some more of the former guides would have popped in and told the real story. A good guide is not in it for the money. A good guide is in it because they love it. | |
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EA you are missing my point, mainly because the post before mine was deleted.
JS | |
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Location: The desert | Guest - 12/2/2011 1:23 PM
EA you are missing my point, mainly because the post before mine was deleted.
JS
I missed it as well. I was unaware you were referencing the recently deleted post, thought you were generalizing the entire thread. My apologies. | |
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| Okay, so I am missing your point. What IS your point, John? | |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | esoxaddict - 12/2/2011 1:28 PM
Okay, so I am missing your point. What IS your point, John?
I believe someone called out Sondag for owning a couple of boats and/or trucks and wondered how he afforded it, and JS was replying to that one. | |
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| Most do it because they love being on the water and fishing. Haven't you seen the guides who've only fish a system a few years (tops) then start guiding? Or maybe they already have "Mommy and Daddy's" money and don't need the income to survive but do it to support their "habit". For the most part lots of guides just love the sport and find a way to make it work. Most of the guides I've fished with have been fantastic and it's just a way of life for them which I respect. It's definitely not an easy business chasing Muskies but it sure is addicting and lots of fun! I give it up to the guides who really have put their time in fishing a lake, system or area and not jumping into it quickly after only a few seasons. It's not money making business but it's always important to do what you love in life and the guides I've fished with really love it! | |
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My point is when people bring up a particular guide, which happened, and start saying this or that about them on the internet it's time to say "it's none of your business."
JS | |
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Posts: 8824
| Ahhh. Lots of that going around these days. Maybe there should be an OWS movement for muskie fishing? You know, for the 1 in 100 who have tried to make a decent living at it and actually have. | |
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| Guest - 12/2/2011 1:11 PM
Why does anybody care what a guide owns, how much he charges or how they make it?
If you want to pay what they charge, pay it. If you don't, then don't.
Is it any bodies business how they come out at the end of the year, or how much money they have, or if they have another job??
JS
I can't believe I'm about to agree with Mr. John Skarie, esq., but here goes....
It's called JEALOUSY. Some people are jealous that others make a living fishing, or that they MAY get discounts on their equipment. Some people don't like that guides fish a public resource to make their income. Otherwise why would anybody care? Nobody gets their tightie-whities in a bundle when the local builder buys a new work truck.
KODIAK: What you've said is gospel though some still won't get it. But I've got to know....where did you find a 78 Blazer that's still running!?
A huge point that has been overlooked in this entire discussion is the actual gross income of the guides. $70,000 is being tossed around quite freely. How many guides in the Midwest actually work 200 days a year? I'll bet you can count the number on one hand. Most "full-timers" can't book a hundred days a year....so why don't we take that $70,000 figure and cut it in half for future discussion?
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| OHN, that $70k number was tossed out as a dream scenario, i.e. best possible year ever. We all know that in order to do that you'd pretty much have to start South in the Spring, move North for the summer, and then head South again in the fall. It ain't gonna happen anywhere where you can only guide June-November. 6 days a week in N/WI puts you at 150 for the year if your booked solid and nobody cancels. I'd bet the average guide does 120 days tops. Even at $400/day that's only $48,000 gross. Which brings me to the point I tried to make earlier. Self employed at $48k gross ain't buyin' you much of a life. | |
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| Paying for a person to put you on fish is by far the best way to get yourself into a larger sized fish unless you happen to have horse shoes stuffed up your behind.
Pay the Money. Save the hours. And STFU if you want to whine about it.
Not everyone can afford what it takes to be a guide.
Lord knows I wouldn't be one if you paid me.
Simps!
lol. | |
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