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Location: Bemidji | This is coming straight from the MN Darkhouse President Tim Spreck:
“In previous years, I wondered what had happened to spearing on Cass Lake,” Spreck said. “I was told it was a phony study that got the lake closed.”
“If we can make a case for this lake, we can make a case for others,” Spreck said. “This is the first domino, and it fell hard. Darkhouse association members and other spearers are responsible people; they are not out there to spear everything.”
This session the Darkhouse is letting it be known that they are trying to get other lakes lifted from spearing bans.
Here's a few reads from the Cass Lake Times:
http://www.casslaketimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti...
http://www.casslaketimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti...
http://www.casslaketimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=cate... |
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Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | I softened some on this issue but I do have a real problem with how this got passed. This issue was shot down last year due to public input and then again this year when it came time for the governor to sign it. It was absolutely snuck into the special session bill signing during the government shutdown. People had no chance to voice their opinion on it for a third time. I dont know how anyone can argue that this was a proper way to get this done. It's a real shady deal.
I keep hearing about this "look and release" thing but all the spearers I know sure dont practice that, and I dont know why'd you spear Cass other than a better chance to kill a fish over 10lbs. There are many lakes in the area with better pike populations than Cass but the real big fish aren't there, and that goes for other lakes on the chain.
In the end though, more big fish will die but I'm not sure it will be significant enough to show. I just dont know what you do with a 13lb northern that four 3lbers cant do. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | '“I looked on what little I was able to do ... as my duty,” said Representative Persell. “I was happy to work on that.” He also gave credit to other key members involved in the effort. “It made it easier to do with your support. It takes the effort of the whole town,” he told those in attendance. “It was the right thing to do. We got Cass Lake open for everyone to fish the way they want. While I’m usually a big supporter of the DNR, they had some holes in their science in this study. Now we will work to protect it. We need to be conscientious and protect the resource for everyone to use.”'
Fisheries managers are scientists and hired to do the job based upon their education and qualifications, and politicians are not. It shows.
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Location: Bemidji | Interesting to see the creel survey that will take place in 2012. It might take a few years for the trophy nothern pike population to decline but it is inevitable.
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Location: The desert | sworrall - 10/17/2011 8:04 PM
'“I looked on what little I was able to do ... as my duty,” said Representative Persell. “I was happy to work on that.” He also gave credit to other key members involved in the effort. “It made it easier to do with your support. It takes the effort of the whole town,” he told those in attendance. “It was the right thing to do. We got Cass Lake open for everyone to fish the way they want. While I’m usually a big supporter of the DNR, they had some holes in their science in this study. Now we will work to protect it. We need to be conscientious and protect the resource for everyone to use.”'
Fisheries managers are scientists and hired to do the job based upon their education and qualifications, and politicians are not. It shows.
I'd be interested to hear about these "holes" that this learned politician was able to determine. |
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| i cant even read that stuff and see there faces in the pictures it makes me sick!!! |
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Location: Barrington, Il | I like how the resort owner claims it has hurt is business. He has been a local only 11 years and this rule has been in placce for 23. I think he needs to work on his math. If he wanted guests in the winter why didn't he promote ice fishing for big northerns? Many more people ice fish than spear plus the fish can be released. |
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Location: The desert | millsie - 10/18/2011 11:15 AM
I like how the resort owner claims it has hurt is business. He has been a local only 11 years and this rule has been in placce for 23. I think he needs to work on his math. If he wanted guests in the winter why didn't he promote ice fishing for big northerns? Many more people ice fish than spear plus the fish can be released.
I think you missed the point of the comment. These resorts that supported the effort were likely boycotted in both winter and summer, thus hurting business. He never specifically mentions anything about winter guests. You are making assumptions. |
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| Spreck obviously is a knobhead when it comes to both thinking and speaking.
"Spreck said he beleives most spear fishermen are mindful of conservation and only take what they need, as opposed to sport angling, which can actually have a much higher mortality rate."
So spearers "need" northern pike to put "food on their plate"?
And spearing has a lower mortality rate than sport angling?
Uhm........wouldn't that be 100% for spearing Mr. Spreck?
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“We don’t need to have limitations on the methods of taking fish,” he said. “No one wants Cass to be anything less than a multi-species fishery year around. This will give folks an opportunity to try another method of fishing.
This is another really dumb quote, but I have pointed out the stupidity of this in the past on M1 when people start going on about trolling, trolling multiple lines and trolling with suckers while casting.
We do need limitations. Clearly it is an issue or they would never have imposed ANY! We just don't seem to be able to agree on what those limitations should be. In this case a declining special interest group got their way and will shortly start slicing themselves a large slice of the trophy pike pie, and a collateral damage slice of the musky pie. |
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| Wait till they start spearing walleyes.
Tom
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| It wont be collateral in the future,,, were all in the darkhouse if we dont think they will go for muskies too upcoming,, has soon has they get something they go for something else,,cass now ALL and then whataya think is gonna come next |
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MuskyFlyGuy - 10/18/2011 4:33 PM
Wait till they start spearing walleyes.
Tom
Might as well ban bowfishing too then....
And northern pike fishing in the winter... And... And...
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The debate shouldn't be about the method used to kill fish. A dead fish is dead fish.
The debate should be about what kind of a fishery we want to have and what is the best way to achieve that.
That is how you win the battle in the public sector and hopefully bends the ears of lawmakers that my have some common sense.
JS |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The issue is simple. The MNDNR had a spearing ban on that water to preserve the Muskie fishery and perhaps preserve a trophy Pike fishery as well. This wasn't a fisheries management decision, it was a legislative debacle during a time when the public couldn't follow normal protocol. Politicians have no business acting as fisheries biologists, and this one stinks. |
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Guest - 10/18/2011 5:46 PM
The debate shouldn't be about the method used to kill fish. A dead fish is dead fish.
The debate should be about what kind of a fishery we want to have and what is the best way to achieve that.
That is how you win the battle in the public sector and hopefully bends the ears of lawmakers that my have some common sense.
JS
So I assume you are against the killing of any fish?
Do you feel the same way about Deer, Ducks, Elk, Bear, etc?
How about Cows should we stop killing them too?
There is nothing wrong with killing a fish to eat it.
It is not any more wrong than killing a Cow to eat it.
Both should be done responsibly, however there is nothing wrong with either.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm pretty sure that's completely off the mark from what JS was trying to say. |
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sworrall - 10/18/2011 5:50 PM
The issue is simple. The MNDNR had a spearing ban on that water to preserve the Muskie fishery and perhaps preserve a trophy Pike fishery as well. This wasn't a fisheries management decision, it was a legislative debacle during a time when the public couldn't follow normal protocol. Politicians have no business acting as fisheries biologists, and this one stinks.
You might want to re-think your position.
The truth is the MN legislature had a spearing ban on that water, not the MnDNR.
So using your logic;
The initial ban wasn't a fisheries management decision, it was a legislative debacle.
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Location: Bemidji |
"So I assume you are against the killing of any fish?
Do you feel the same way about Deer, Ducks, Elk, Bear, etc?
How about Cows should we stop killing them too?
There is nothing wrong with killing a fish to eat it.
It is not any more wrong than killing a Cow to eat it.
Both should be done responsibly, however there is nothing wrong with either."
I have a question. When has spearing as a whole been done responsibly? Never. Atleast with the betterment of the fishery in mind. Some individuals may choose to harvest the smaller pike but this is not the norm. ALL the studies that I have ever seen show darkhouse spearers take the largest pike possible. Thus resulting in stunted northern pike populations. One of the most interesting studies that I have read was conducted in North Dakota after they opened a FEW select lakes to spearing. The trophy northern pike populations crashed in a few years.
Like Skarie said, "What is it that we want?" A fishery with hammerhandle pike or a fishery that can produce trophy pike? According to a recent study by the MN DNR the public wants a shot at catching trophy pike. Well that cant happen when politicians turn into armchair biologists.
I suggest all vacationers to the Cass Lake to find out who supports the Darkhouse and who does not.
Edited by kevin cochran 10/18/2011 6:45 PM
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| sworrall - 10/18/2011 5:50 PM
The issue is simple. The MNDNR had a spearing ban on that water to preserve the Muskie fishery and perhaps preserve a trophy Pike fishery as well.
The other way around, actually. The ban was was to preserve a trophy pike fishery and protect muskies from accidental spearing as a bonus, since we all know the Darkies would never throw at a muskie...... 
Muskie anglers need to be careful making statements like that, putting the muskie first, as that's what their propaganda and ill-founded retorts in this silly mess are based upon. |
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kevin cochran - 10/18/2011 6:43 PM
One of the most interesting studies that I have read was conducted in North Dakota after they opened a FEW select lakes to spearing. The trophy northern pike populations crashed in a few years.
Once again you are putting your credibility on the line here.
Here is one of those credible biologists you speak of.
Doug Leier - North Dakota Game and Fish Department
http://www.youtube.com/user/DougLeier#p/a/u/2/-lH89cSRnIw
Darkhouse spearing is so detrimental, yet they keep adding new lakes year after year?
Supposedly there were not going to be any northern pike left in Minnesota after Darkhouse spearing was opened to non residents 2 years ago. Once the real numbers came out and there were less than 200 nonresident darkhouse spearing license sales in the state we have heard little to nothing about this.
The same thing will happen with Cass Lake.
A bunch of hubbaloo about nothing.
Why you would consciously waste Muskies Inc’s credibility on such a non issue just amazes me.
But as they say... Carry On....
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Location: minocqua, wi. | ^ yup |
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kevin cochran - 10/18/2011 6:43 PM
I suggest all vacationers to the Cass Lake to find out who supports the Darkhouse and who does not.
Here is a guy who supported lifting the darkhouse spearing ban....
Thanks to all of the volunteers and participants who helped make this another successful event. To date over $6,000 has been collected for the Minnesota Chapter of the CF Foundation.
http://breakonthelake.com/cf.htm
I suppose we should boycott him... and all he does for the Minnesota Chapter of the CYSTIC FIBROSIS Foundation?
Boycott him????
For what?
Because someone’s ego was bruised?
The sad thing is that some muskie people actually listened to you and did boycott him and his tournament for Cystic Fibrosis.
Edited by admin. Take this as a last warning.
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Location: Bemidji | This is something that MN does not have in comparison to North Dakota:
“The legislature did give us a lot of ability to
set rules and regulations as we saw fit,” said
Game and Fish Department fisheries division
chief Greg Power.“We did take the conservative
approach, and continue to do so.” |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i thought we were talking about darkhouse spearing ... where did it all of a sudden become dark-house hates kids with diseases??
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| Against killing, hardly.
Maybe clarification is needed.
The fishery belongs to all people of MN. What kind of fishery we want should be the debate first and foremost. The best way to achieve that goal should be left up to those that know how to get there.
Slot limits work, and work very well for many species. That is a fact.
Personally I don't want any bans on techniques to kill fish.
If a lake has a slot on it, then we all have the ability to choose whether or not to fish that lake, and what tactic to use. Spear, angle, tip-up etc.
Nobody is limited to fishing only one way. We aren't born with a stamp on our heads that says we can only fish with a rod and reel or only use a spear.
Nobody is being banned from taking fish for the table.
Just because you can't use your specific favorite way to fish 100% of the time doesn't mean your being discriminated against. Life is what it is. Adapt to what options you have and follow the same rules everyone has imposed on them.
There are times of the year you can bow-hunt, rifle hunt and muzzle load for deer.
We all know when those times are and choose where and how we want to hunt.
I suppose rifle hunters could say it's unfair that they can't hunt during bow season and get some legislature to listen to them and change it.
Or they can follow the rules that all hunters follow and go at and get their deer without trying to change the system to meet their own personal desires.
JS
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | To avoid confusion and clarify, GUEST 1 is the same person and clearly marked as such.
OK, I stand corrected... sort of.
As I understand it he MNDNR supported the regulation and whether anyone likes it or not, the spearing ban was on a Muskie lakes that is a trophy fishery...right? You said it yourself, the ban also stops incidental spearing of Muskies.
Alot has happened in the MN Muskie fishery over the last 23 years, and alot has happened with the CPR ethic and with protecting the trophy Muskie fisheries and Pike fisheries Whichever came first in this case doesn't matter to me. I'm from another state, and am looking at this from the outside, and am not too worried if I upset anyone.
The ban was removed by a move at a time where the normal process could not function. When the normal process DID function in the past, support for the spearing ban stopped the action. Right?
The logic in the post above talking about the out of state licenses is flawed. That wasn't and isn't the issue at hand.
Was Doug Leier an author of the study Kevin quoted?
Was there any DNR input when the original ban was suggested and placed into the books?
Who the hell are you to talk about personal credibility when hiding behind a monitor as an anonymous sniper? Weak.
Has Cass Lake been recognized as a top destination for trophy Pike and Muskies?
I'll make this prediction:
The big pike of Cass Lake will be reduced in numbers in short order.
Bad things happen when legislators think they should manage the fisheries.
And I'll put the muskies first in any conservation argument I can and if it's tried to turn that against me, I know how to respond..been there before. Didn't matter in this case anyway, they used an end around and beat the opposition by employing bad politics. My take.
Trophy Pike take a close second. Some lakes need to be preserved as trophy fisheries and that can only happen with CPR. I have nothing against darkhouse spearing. I do have a problem with how this went down.
Bad politics.
JS, an example of what you were saying. I'm a bowhunter, and also enjoy using a rifle and a black powder rifle. This year, the rules went weird here, and bowhunting is now allowed during rifle season. Why? Not because of any real issue other than maybe many bowhunters were upset they couldn't hunt with a bow in WI during peak rut. Going to be some confrontations out there this year, I think. Mixed feelings on that one, but there it is. |
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Guest - 10/18/2011 7:57 PM
Personally I don't want any bans on techniques to kill fish.
If a lake has a slot on it, then we all have the ability to choose whether or not to fish that lake, and what tactic to use. Spear, angle, tip-up etc.
Sounds good to me...
Time to put your money where your mouth is.
Work to remove the bans darkhouse spearing in the remaining lakes in Minnesota.
If they have a slot on those lakes keep the slot; if they don't; remove the ban without replacing the ban with a slot.
You know as well as I that a sportsman with a spear or pole decides to kill the fish not the pole or the spear.
We both also know that removing the bans on the existing waters will have a very small effect on the number of darkhouse spearers in Minnesota.
So the real question is, will removing the existing darkhouse spearing bans so on certian waters the same people are able to pick up a spear for 3 months a year, rather than them using 2 tip ups during that same time period increase the amount of fish killed?
We both know it won’t.
Once again this is much to do about nothing.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No one said the numbers of darkhouse spearfishermen was the issue.
I am a tip up angler. I put the big girls back. So do all the other tip up anglers I fish with over here. Are you telling me the battle over spearing Cass was over 25" pike? Just asking.
Will spearing increase the number of big pike harvested on Cass?
Yep.
Is that a good thing or bad thing?
Depends on what you think of Cass as a trophy fishery now and into the future.
Would the Darkhouse folks support a slot on Cass that protects the trophy potential of the Pike there?
Would you, JS?
Is Hooker right?
It's 'much to do' about something. I'd say it is about MN trophy waters and what to do to keep them that way. Right? Wrong?
Again, I'm an outsider here...just asking.
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Location: Watertown, MN | Guest1
We know the non-resident spearing was pushed through because of a politicians son who was no longer a resident could not spear, good use of public officials and tax payers money.
So if you are all for the fisheries, and what the public wants why are you so against the re-introduction of muskys in lakes? Why is the darkhouse so opposed?
Troyz |
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Location: The desert | Look no further than the sturgeon spearing season in Wisconsin for a model of successful spearing. The sturgeon management is by far the best management the WDNR does. Pretty amazing actually. |
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Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | It's such a bad precedent of sorts. The government sticks their nose in many issues they have no business attempting to regulate. Why have a DNR if you're not going to listen to them or feel its ok to override them at any time? I'm totally with Steve on this, I don't like this mostly because of how this ban has been lifted. It couldn't have been more devious. Guest you must actually realize that, it'd be mind-boggling if people dont see that. It's disturbing to me to see how easily laws can be manipulated. To have public opinion be against something(twice) and still see it happen ONLY because "public opinion" was then taken away is heinous. That's what happened here. The special session to end the government shutdown was to put people back to work, not push personal agendas through. Or so I thought. I realize I'm not saying anything new about the political world here, just hope others might analyze their views a bit more before the next time they find themselves on the other side of the coin. Getting your way any way possible just seems wrong on an issue like this.
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| In what way do I have to put my money where my mouth is??
I've never been a champion of banning spearing. I'm also not going to work to get current bans lifted. I just don't care if they are lifted.
I'm for management that works in places where it makes sense.
Cass Lake is a trophy lake that should have a slot. That's my opinion, plain and simple. I don't care if you allow spearing there or not.
There are plenty of places to spear, and I know spearers that spear on lakes that currently have slots.
For the record I grew up spearing and have no problems with it.
Regs are to protect fish and ensure healthy populations for the future.
Some people just need to get over themselves and realize that our resources are more important than thier determination not to be regulated like everyone else is.
I think my points have been made and I don't really feel like posting on this subject anymore.
JS
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Sackett - 10/18/2011 11:59 PM
It's such a bad precedent of sorts. The government sticks their nose in many issues they have no business attempting to regulate. Why have a DNR if you're not going to listen to them or feel its ok to override them at any time? I'm totally with Steve on this, I don't like this mostly because of how this ban has been lifted. It couldn't have been more devious. Guest you must actually realize that, it'd be mind-boggling if people dont see that. It's disturbing to me to see how easily laws can be manipulated. To have public opinion be against something(twice) and still see it happen ONLY because "public opinion" was then taken away is heinous. That's what happened here. The special session to end the government shutdown was to put people back to work, not push personal agendas through. Or so I thought. I realize I'm not saying anything new about the political world here, just hope others might analyze their views a bit more before the next time they find themselves on the other side of the coin. Getting your way any way possible just seems wrong on an issue like this.
Personally, I would have to say that the credibility of those working for you at the capitol was one of the biggest reasons that this was handled the way it was.
There is only one thing that I have seen that the MnDNR, muskies Inc, and the Minnesota Darkhouse and Angling Association can agree on. No Darkhouse Spearing bans on new muskie waters (which are the same size and type as the “old waters”) in Minnesota.
muskies Inc’s and the minnnesota muskie alliance’s official position is no bans on new waters, yet what they won’t tell you is that they support the bans on the old waters. It is pretty hard to have any credibility with a position like that.
So you can blame the darkhouse spearers for pushing though bad legislation, you can blame the darkhouse spearers for killing all the big pike in Minnesota (even though the number of darkhouse spearers in Minnesota is well under the combined catch and release mortality rate of the 1.5 million anglers in Minnesota) but at some time you are going to have to face reality and see that it is not all the darkhouse spearers fault.
The way I see it is, muskie fishermen in Minnesota have some choices to make. Continue with the “blame game” or man up realize when you should do the right thing.
The right thing is to remove all darkhouse spearing bans from Minnesota waters.
And just to let you know…. I don’t speak for the Minnesota Darkhouse and Angling Association.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'muskies Inc’s and the minnnesota muskie alliance’s official position is no bans on new waters, yet what they won’t tell you is that they support the bans on the old waters. It is pretty hard to have any credibility with a position like that.'
Perhaps during negotiation with the Darkhouse folks, they took that position. Politics from No More Muskies, the spearing crowd, etc. created the need to compromise on new waters. The behavior of the Minnesota Darkhouse and Angling Association political activists since is well documented here, so again...don't question credibility from a well established position of deceit, OR while hiding behind a monitor, because yours is lost in that practice. Just sayin'.
I fail to see a problem supporting the bans in place that protect trophy fisheries, while agreeing on spearfishing on new waters if that's the clearest and perhaps only path to any chance of acquiring them. The history of the entire debate is here, so everyone here who has followed this knows all the details.
'(even though the number of darkhouse spearers in Minnesota is well under the combined catch and release mortality rate of the 1.5 million anglers in Minnesota'
What kind of logic is that? So many holes in that one it sank immediately.
'So you can blame the darkhouse spearers for pushing though bad legislation'
No, I'm blaming the politicians for running this through when and how it was done. It wasn't clean politics OR what the majority public deserves and indicated at least two times, preferred. It was special interest dirty politics at it's finest. It left a couple politicians in charge of managing Cass Lake. That's a bad precedent. The spear crowd wants Cass. The Muskie and trophy Pike crowd wants it to remain protected. Te spear crowd tried and lost a couple times to ram through special interest legislation and was blocked using proper, open channels. What happened in this case was pure political deception.
You haven't answered a single direct question I've asked you, indicating you prefer not to engage because you HAVE NO answers. Is that correct?
'The way I see it is, muskie fishermen in Minnesota have some choices to make. Continue with the “blame game” or man up realize when you should do the right thing. '
I believe you have pretty strong disagreement on what is, or is not, the 'right thing' to do from a number of folks here. Give me ONE example of how a protected fishery will benefit from lifting the ban. One. Indicate to me how the ban on the waters now protected limits or stops those who like to spear from enjoying their sport. LOTS of water to spear, isn't there?
A slot limit was suggested by JS. Not a bad compromise, if one assumes no one will spear any muskies accidentally or on purpose. NW Ontario has a working slot, allowing harvest under about 27 or over 36, and only one of four allowed over 36. No spearing of course, but the slot works for all other angling methods. Would the Darkhouse folks support that on Cass? It's a reasonable move to protect the trophy pike and equitable for all angling, protecting a trophy resource for us all, right? Isn't that 'the right thing' to do if one puts managing a trophy fishery for all anglers first and special interests on BOTH sides of the issue second? |
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Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | I guess I will need to check how my reps voted on this, so I am able to decide whether to vote for them again. If I find they supported this I will not vote to re-elect them, and will be telling them exactly why.
It seems very odd to me that at the same time MN is switching to a deer management policy based on getting more "trophy" deer for hunters to harvest, they are at the same time going against existing policies to help propagate and promote a trophy pike and muskie fishery. And the REALLY odd thing is, I know a couple local spearers who were vocal proponents of the new antler restrictions imposed for deer hunters in SE MN. Weird that folks who support dirty backroom politics reducing opportunity at a trophy fishery in order to increase their part of the harvest, then being in support of a policy that restricts another persons opportunity to harvest a deer simply in order to increase their chance at a trophy. Just seems a little inconsistent, but then again most folks positions on a variety of issues these days can most often be described as inconsistent. usually I guess people these days side with whichever position gives them what they want, instead of using a set standard to determine whether they think something is right or wrong.
There are a myriad of lakes open to spearing of pike, just in the Cass Lake area alone. No matter what is said, its obvious to anyone with even a modicum of common sense what it is Cass offers that those other lakes do not, and it certainly isnt "eater" size pike! |
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Location: The desert | castmaster - 10/19/2011 10:16 AM
Weird that folks who support dirty backroom politics reducing opportunity at a trophy fishery in order to increase their part of the harvest, then being in support of a policy that restricts another persons opportunity to harvest a deer simply in order to increase their chance at a trophy. Just seems a little inconsistent, but then again most folks positions on a variety of issues these days can most often be described as inconsistent. usually I guess people these days side with whichever position gives them what they want, instead of using a set standard to determine whether they think something is right or wrong.
There are a myriad of lakes open to spearing of pike, just in the Cass Lake area alone. No matter what is said, its obvious to anyone with even a modicum of common sense what it is Cass offers that those other lakes do not, and it certainly isnt "eater" size pike!
So spear fisherman should have their opportunity to take a trophy fish reduced because it might reduce the potential of the angling community to catch a trophy specimen?
Seems a little inconsistent. Might want to think through what you post...... |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I've been trying to stay out of this one but I just can't anymore.
"You might want to re-think your position. The truth is the MN legislature had a spearing ban on that water, not the MnDNR."
The "truth" is the DNR supported this legislation all 4 times it's been presented in the legislature. They saw a need and at the time and had the data to back up the regulation. This legislation was passed against the testomony of the MnDNR.
The "truth" also is that it's a heck of a lot harder to have a large pike eat a tip-up bait vs. spearing them in the dark house. Speaking as one who has spent hours and hours fishing for them from a spear hole I think that I have a little credibility on this subject. I also chuckle when I hear guys that say they "look and released" 4 different trophy pike in a day only to take one. Newsflash: IT WAS PROBABLY THE SAME DARN FISH!!!! Sigh, the problem with many is that they don't realize how few large pike and muskies are in a system and until they do then habits will never be changed.
Since I'm one of a couple people who attended every Esocide work group that involved the spearing interest I can tell you that progress was being made, until the double talk started coming from the MDAA. Discussion about how the MDAA would support new waters as well as lifting the spearing bans were being held. A member of the MDAA even said "you guys need muskies in Tetonka!" We were floored to say the least. We were on our way to some real progress between our two groups when Kirk and Tim took over. They provided a hardline anti-muskie campaign and decided to start things up in the legislature. Just look at the "Sportsmen for Responsible Muskie Management" site as well as their "public awareness" add in the Outdoor News. All the while when they were telling us what we wanted to hear, they were working against us to kill the Esocide LRP as well as spreading lies to the lake shore associations to kill the stocking proposals. They even tried to kill one of the new approved lakes this past spring after it had been approved.
Even with all of this happening to us, I opened a back line of communication to the Tim Spreck, President of the MDAA to see if we can figure out a way out from all of this as to not escalate things to a worse place then we currently are. The response was a resounding NO. I personally believe that the fighting will get worse and we will continue to spend hours and dollars on these issues instead of bettering the fishery. It makes me sick when I look at the effort we put forth to try to maintain and improve the fishery only to have legislators recklessly destroy regs with a stroke of a pen.
So Guest, how is MI and the MMPA leading the muskie and pike anglers down the wrong path again? How can any muskie fisherman trust the MDAA or anyone who would let these people represent them after all of this? I know that I've tried and until things change in their leadership and/or subculture I can't. |
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| Pointer,
They are trying to take everyones trophy opps. away by eliminating slots for pike on all lakes. Being a Fisheries biologist you should know that protecting the large pike is good for the overall fishery.
You should see some of the hammer handle factories (whitefish chain) we have in MN, its pretty ridiculous. You can't troll a bait over 15 min without getting ripped by an 18" pike, ooh what fun. |
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Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | Wow, allot of information and allot of it not coming from science or "on the water knowledge"
I can only speak from my personal observations of 10 years straight of 236+ days on the water anually as an average. Every body of water I knew, I mean figured outr most of the secrets on without exception suffered when an increased amount of spearing took place. This involved the bio-mass fishery as a whole. Some lakes never recovered, some did only to subcum to another onslaught of darkhouse spearing. Without exception the 20lb. pike dwindled from 2-3 /yr catch rates to zero within as little as ONE season! Spearing is HARVESTING, nothing more in my personal opinion. The goal should be to create opportunities for QUALITY resources NOT supply a select few with means to HARVEST. Sad day for Cass Lake and those resorts that know better. "MN. will be plaqued as long as the DNR is controlled by the legislators which cannot help but give in to special interests. The future of the Muskie fisheries is not the only thing in jeporady. Just watch" Jake |
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Location: The desert | B420 - 10/19/2011 11:57 AM
Pointer,
They are trying to take everyones trophy opps. away by eliminating slots for pike on all lakes. Being a Fisheries biologist you should know that protecting the large pike is good for the overall fishery.
You should see some of the hammer handle factories (whitefish chain) we have in MN, its pretty ridiculous. You can't troll a bait over 15 min without getting ripped by an 18" pike, ooh what fun.
But you are making the broad assumption that EVERY spearer is only going to harvest trophy pike. You also make the assumption that anglers release all trophy pike. Slot limits are great, but I don't see them being practical for spearing for obvious reasons. Seems a quota of some sort might work better to protect a number of big pike, yet still allowing the chance at a few trophy pike for the spearing groups. As a fisheries biologist, I do understand the importance of protecting some of the larger fish but it doesn't seem as the fisheries biologists had an actual say in this matter what so ever. But what is done is done, now it is up to the biologists to figure out how to play the hand they were dealt.
Spearing and sustainability can coincide. Again, I point to the sturgeon management done by the WDNR.
Seems there is trouble in paradise (Minnysoda). Wisconsin isn't looking half bad at this point. 
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| Going off what jakej said about spearing being harvesting...has there ever been any discussion about having a short "spearing season." Something similar to slug season for deer. This would give the spearers their chance at a "trophy." I am completely opposed to spearing, but it seems there is going to need to be some sort of deal made that everyone can agree on because it's obvious they have no intentions of settling with their latest victory. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Pointerpride102 - 10/19/2011 12:55 PM
Seems there is trouble in paradise (Minnysoda ). Wisconsin isn't looking half bad at this point.
Badgers - Gophers (W)
Packers - Vikings (W)
Brewers - Twins (W)
Leinies - Mich. Golden Light (to use a MN. term ... ish) (W)
Shells - Spotted Cow (W)
Mille Lacs - Green Bay (W)
Walker - Dayton (W)
Lambeau - Metrodome (W)
Tarrget Field - Miller Park (Tie)
Sun Drop - ?? (W)
Rifle - Shotgun (W)
edit
Tipup - Spear or Tipup (M)
yah, Sconnie looks pretty good ... except for that last one!
Edited by jonnysled 10/19/2011 1:31 PM
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | jonnysled - 10/19/2011 11:30 AM
Badgers - Gophers (W)
Packers - Vikings (W)
Brewers - Twins (W)
Leinies - Mich. Golden Light (to use a MN. term ... ish) (W)
Shells - Spotted Cow (W)
Mille Lacs - Green Bay (W)
Walker - Dayton (W)
Lambeau - Metrodome (W)
Tarrget Field - Miller Park (Tie)
Sun Drop - ?? (W)
Rifle - Shotgun (W)
edit
Tipup - Spear or Tipup (M)
yah, Sconnie looks pretty good ... except for that last one!
Summit - Leinies (M)
Surly - New Glaris (M)
Although I do like "Totally Naked" from NG, we've totally got better beer on this side of the river. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm in my NP office this week and it looks like i may have to go buy a couple a beers ... |
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Location: The desert | jakejusa - 10/19/2011 12:38 PM
Wow, allot of information and allot of it not coming from science or "on the water knowledge"
I can only speak from my personal observations of 10 years straight of 236+ days on the water anually as an average. Every body of water I knew, I mean figured outr most of the secrets on without exception suffered when an increased amount of spearing took place. This involved the bio-mass fishery as a whole. Some lakes never recovered, some did only to subcum to another onslaught of darkhouse spearing. Without exception the 20lb. pike dwindled from 2-3 /yr catch rates to zero within as little as ONE season! Spearing is HARVESTING, nothing more in my personal opinion. The goal should be to create opportunities for QUALITY resources NOT supply a select few with means to HARVEST. Sad day for Cass Lake and those resorts that know better. "MN. will be plaqued as long as the DNR is controlled by the legislators which cannot help but give in to special interests. The future of the Muskie fisheries is not the only thing in jeporady. Just watch" Jake
After sifting through this highly anecdotal and horribly confusing/misspelled post, I think I've got it down to: My enjoyment of my sport is more important than someone else, therefore my opinion is more valuable and I should be entitled to more than others.
Problem is, both sides of the coin are full of these types of people. Rather than even attempting to work together to find some sort of compromise or balance, it turns into an entitlement urinating match. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Pointer, in this case there were folks trying very hard to meet in the middle and find a way to keep everyone happy. The opposing side took a very sudden hard left turn and in the process told those working towards compromise to pound sand while placing a shiv firmly into the spine of all the work done up to that point. Makes it tough to work together much again.
And it explains why there are so many folks disappointed in what then happened during and following the Gov't shutdown.
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Location: The desert | sworrall - 10/19/2011 2:34 PM
Pointer, in this case there were folks trying very hard to meet in the middle and find a way to keep everyone happy. The opposing side took a very sudden hard left turn and in the process told those working towards compromise to pound sand while placing a shiv firmly into the spine of all the work done up to that point. Makes it tough to work together much again.
And it explains why there are so many folks disappointed in what then happened during and following the Gov't shutdown.
Got it....I skimmed Treats' post and missed the part of new powers that be in the Spearers.
I assume that they were dissatisfied or unaware of the progress being made?
Edited by Pointerpride102 10/19/2011 2:59 PM
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Location: Hudson, WI | Heileman's Old Style. That has to put WI ahead in the beer department. |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Moltisanti - 10/19/2011 3:36 PM
Heileman's Old Style. That has to put WI ahead in the beer department.
You've got to be kidding, the only thing Old Style is good for is keeping a guy regular. |
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| Sled
lets not stop at green bay
leech vs????
Vermilion vs ?
Cass vs?
Miltona vs?
Minnetonka vs ? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 10/19/2011 4:32 PM
Sled
lets not stop at green bay
leech vs????
Vermilion vs ?
Cass vs?
Miltona vs?
Minnetonka vs ?
trump ...
but, not unlike the minnesota drivers on the road, i'd prefer fishin' smallies in n. wisco to big muskies on crowded lakes full a bite-chasers.
that said ... anybody been on mille lacs fishin' smallies? holy crap! worth the trip!! and hardly anyone there anymore after the place got left for dead. maybe the list you have will have a similar result??
hey ... why not try saving the muskies in mille lacs instead of the pike in other lakes? or have we moved on from that lake already? i have seen the enemy and the enemy is ourselves.
Edited by jonnysled 10/19/2011 5:54 PM
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Location: deephaven mn | (Quote);
There is only one thing that I have seen that the MnDNR, muskies Inc, and the Minnesota Darkhouse and Angling Association can agree on. No Darkhouse Spearing bans on new muskie waters (which are the same size and type as the “old waters”) in Minnesota.
muskies Inc’s and the minnnesota muskie alliance’s official position is no bans on new waters, yet what they won’t tell you is that they support the bans on the old waters. It is pretty hard to have any credibility with a possition like this.
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Guest,
This statement is what I call "twist and shout"
I think Muskies Inc's possition on supporting spearing bans on old waters is very clear and very open, isn't this how this thread started?
Muskies Inc is also willing to allow spearing on new waters as part of a negotiation
with the Darkhouse Angling Association.
Edited by kap 10/19/2011 5:26 PM
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Location: Bemidji | I spoke on behalf of the MN Muskie and Pike Alliance to Senator John Carlson to compromise on this issue earlier this year. He took it back to the handful of people he was representing in Cass Lake and basically told me there would be no compromise. The compromise was C and R on Cass for muskies, slot limit on pike, and winter spearing would have been open. So we developed something that would have been beneficial to both groups and it was thrown back in our face.
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Location: Hudson, WI | Bytor - 10/19/2011 4:02 PM
Moltisanti - 10/19/2011 3:36 PM
Heileman's Old Style. That has to put WI ahead in the beer department.
You've got to be kidding, the only thing Old Style is good for is keeping a guy regular.
That's what I would have said 6 months ago. Then a friend of mine bought a 12 pack and left it in my fridge. Something about it hooked me. I've started to notice that people treat you with an aire of authority when you order an Old Style, like you are really wise and attractive. Kind of like when you grow a mustache. |
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Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | Pointerpride102 - 10/19/2011 11:24 AM
castmaster - 10/19/2011 10:16 AM
Weird that folks who support dirty backroom politics reducing opportunity at a trophy fishery in order to increase their part of the harvest, then being in support of a policy that restricts another persons opportunity to harvest a deer simply in order to increase their chance at a trophy. Just seems a little inconsistent, but then again most folks positions on a variety of issues these days can most often be described as inconsistent. usually I guess people these days side with whichever position gives them what they want, instead of using a set standard to determine whether they think something is right or wrong.
There are a myriad of lakes open to spearing of pike, just in the Cass Lake area alone. No matter what is said, its obvious to anyone with even a modicum of common sense what it is Cass offers that those other lakes do not, and it certainly isnt "eater" size pike!
So spear fisherman should have their opportunity to take a trophy fish reduced because it might reduce the potential of the angling community to catch a trophy specimen?
Seems a little inconsistent. Might want to think through what you post......
Nothing inconsistent about it Pointer. The MN DNR put those regs in place for a reason. Its their position, based on science not politics, that spearing isnt conducive to a trophy pike fishery. That fishery exists in Cass Lake due in part to that restriction.
Gee I guess next we best make sure those fellas who like to shoot trophy deer with the aid of a spotlight get the same opportunity as those who hunt during the day to harvest a trophy. I mean to be in support of the daylight hunter harvesting deer but not the nighttime hunter doing so would be inconsistent!
Perhaps "LEGALIZE SHINING" can be the next backroom deal that gets done?
how about those folks who would prefer to harvest their fish using nets instead of hook/line or spear...best make sure they have an opportunity to harvest equal to that of the previous two groups. How bout those whose prefferred method is trotlining? Jug fishing? Dynamite?
Why have regs at all then? I mean its going to be inconsistent for someone at some point right? I think most people will get what I was saying, just as I'm sure you will try to play grammar police and nit pick the ideas/opinions of others while offering little of substance.
Inconsistent would be for me to take a position on this issue saying the spearers shouldnt be able to spear anywhere based on their harvesting of pike, then supporting a proposal to giver liberalized harvest of pike to hook and line anglers.
Edited by castmaster 10/20/2011 10:16 AM
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| firstsixfeet - 10/18/2011 4:22 PM
Spreck obviously is a knobhead when it comes to both thinking and speaking.
"Spreck said he beleives most spear fishermen are mindful of conservation and only take what they need, as opposed to sport angling, which can actually have a much higher mortality rate."
So spearers "need" northern pike to put "food on their plate"?
And spearing has a lower mortality rate than sport angling?
Uhm........wouldn't that be 100% for spearing Mr. Spreck?
They "need" northerns huh? and 10#'s at that?
All I have to say is that mercury poisoning is a horrible, painful way to die, and karma is a good guy! no shortage of mercury in 10#'s |
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| This has been a tough one for me to sit back on as well....we are fighting the battle in Michigan to try and stop the expansion of spearing and it's coming down to the wire. I don't think comparing spearing to hook and line angling for muskies is apples to apples at all. I grew up spearing pike and it was a blast---I'm not against spearing. What I am against is spearing for muskies, particularly in very small bodies of water like the ones being targeted in the Michigan expansion---almost all of which are under 1,000 acres and most of those under 500. The leader of our state's Darkhouse group said at a recent meeting something to the effect that muskies are no nobler than a pike. Lots of reasons to disagree with that, most of them too obvious to waste typing out.
Many good points in this thread---and some that admittedly are hard to read without wanting to blow up on someone's position. Some posts are purposely argumentative on this subject and others because the authors enjoy being controversial---not a newsflash, they do it almost everyday and make for entertaining reading at times. But we have seen the impacts of opening up lakes to spearing in Michigan and they were and continue to be disastrous as far as maintaining an adult population of fish after the winter "harvests." The impact over a period of time, even on huge lakes like those in Minnesota, has to be extremely significant.
I hope Minnesota and Michigan can keep the impact of spearing harvest to a minimum. Once the damage has been done, it's a long wait to get back to where things were---if they ever do. Sometimes anecdotal evidence ends up being factual, even if someone's use of the English language isn't up to your standards. |
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Location: The desert | IM Musky Time - 10/20/2011 7:08 PM
This has been a tough one for me to sit back on as well....we are fighting the battle in Michigan to try and stop the expansion of spearing and it's coming down to the wire. I don't think comparing spearing to hook and line angling for muskies is apples to apples at all. I grew up spearing pike and it was a blast---I'm not against spearing. What I am against is spearing for muskies, particularly in very small bodies of water like the ones being targeted in the Michigan expansion---almost all of which are under 1,000 acres and most of those under 500. The leader of our state's Darkhouse group said at a recent meeting something to the effect that muskies are no nobler than a pike. Lots of reasons to disagree with that, most of them too obvious to waste typing out.
Many good points in this thread---and some that admittedly are hard to read without wanting to blow up on someone's position. Some posts are purposely argumentative on this subject and others because the authors enjoy being controversial---not a newsflash, they do it almost everyday and make for entertaining reading at times. But we have seen the impacts of opening up lakes to spearing in Michigan and they were and continue to be disastrous as far as maintaining an adult population of fish after the winter "harvests." The impact over a period of time, even on huge lakes like those in Minnesota, has to be extremely significant.
I hope Minnesota and Michigan can keep the impact of spearing harvest to a minimum. Once the damage has been done, it's a long wait to get back to where things were---if they ever do. Sometimes anecdotal evidence ends up being factual, even if someone's use of the English language isn't up to your standards.
Sometimes it does, but most of the time it doesn't. That is why they pay the biologists and not the fisherman.
Edit to add: How are muskies "nobler" than pike? I must have missed the class on fish nobleness? Or are you saying you value muskies more than pike, therefore your opinion is worth more than that of the Darkhouse leader? Seems snobby to me. Maybe the fly fisherman are recruiting? Acceptance in the club comes with a lovely salmon surf shirt!
I'm not advocating the spearing of muskies, but simply because someone's opinion differs from yours, doesn't make yours "nobler".
Edited by Pointerpride102 10/20/2011 7:23 PM
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| Pointerpride102 - 10/20/2011 7:17 PM
IM Musky Time - 10/20/2011 7:08 PM
This has been a tough one for me to sit back on as well....we are fighting the battle in Michigan to try and stop the expansion of spearing and it's coming down to the wire. I don't think comparing spearing to hook and line angling for muskies is apples to apples at all. I grew up spearing pike and it was a blast---I'm not against spearing. What I am against is spearing for muskies, particularly in very small bodies of water like the ones being targeted in the Michigan expansion---almost all of which are under 1,000 acres and most of those under 500. The leader of our state's Darkhouse group said at a recent meeting something to the effect that muskies are no nobler than a pike. Lots of reasons to disagree with that, most of them too obvious to waste typing out.
Many good points in this thread---and some that admittedly are hard to read without wanting to blow up on someone's position. Some posts are purposely argumentative on this subject and others because the authors enjoy being controversial---not a newsflash, they do it almost everyday and make for entertaining reading at times. But we have seen the impacts of opening up lakes to spearing in Michigan and they were and continue to be disastrous as far as maintaining an adult population of fish after the winter "harvests." The impact over a period of time, even on huge lakes like those in Minnesota, has to be extremely significant.
I hope Minnesota and Michigan can keep the impact of spearing harvest to a minimum. Once the damage has been done, it's a long wait to get back to where things were---if they ever do. Sometimes anecdotal evidence ends up being factual, even if someone's use of the English language isn't up to your standards.
Sometimes it does, but most of the time it doesn't. That is why they pay the biologists and not the fisherman.
Edit to add: How are muskies "nobler" than pike? I must have missed the class on fish nobleness? Or are you saying you value muskies more than pike, therefore your opinion is worth more than that of the Darkhouse leader? Seems snobby to me. Maybe the fly fisherman are recruiting? Acceptance in the club comes with a lovely salmon surf shirt!
I'm not advocating the spearing of muskies, but simply because someone's opinion differs from yours, doesn't make yours "nobler".
Who says live bait isn't effective? That was quick. Hey, I'm not going to hijack this thread and made my opinion known about the spearing issue, so I'll let you have the last word if you choose. I have no idea who you are, but know you enjoy playing the role of bully on this forum. You can play semantics all you want, but I find your comment about me being snobby pretty ironic since you seem to think you're the authority on everything and appear to get a lot of satisfaction from taking shots at people expressing their opinions. Maybe you should try out for Jeopardy. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hey, I could list the shots exchanged the last few comments and number them...pretty even, and exactly what happens when one leads with one's chin. How about we stay on topic or at least argue facts and ideas about the subject? |
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Location: The desert | IM Musky Time - 10/20/2011 7:37 PM
Pointerpride102 - 10/20/2011 7:17 PM
IM Musky Time - 10/20/2011 7:08 PM
This has been a tough one for me to sit back on as well....we are fighting the battle in Michigan to try and stop the expansion of spearing and it's coming down to the wire. I don't think comparing spearing to hook and line angling for muskies is apples to apples at all. I grew up spearing pike and it was a blast---I'm not against spearing. What I am against is spearing for muskies, particularly in very small bodies of water like the ones being targeted in the Michigan expansion---almost all of which are under 1,000 acres and most of those under 500. The leader of our state's Darkhouse group said at a recent meeting something to the effect that muskies are no nobler than a pike. Lots of reasons to disagree with that, most of them too obvious to waste typing out.
Many good points in this thread---and some that admittedly are hard to read without wanting to blow up on someone's position. Some posts are purposely argumentative on this subject and others because the authors enjoy being controversial---not a newsflash, they do it almost everyday and make for entertaining reading at times. But we have seen the impacts of opening up lakes to spearing in Michigan and they were and continue to be disastrous as far as maintaining an adult population of fish after the winter "harvests." The impact over a period of time, even on huge lakes like those in Minnesota, has to be extremely significant.
I hope Minnesota and Michigan can keep the impact of spearing harvest to a minimum. Once the damage has been done, it's a long wait to get back to where things were---if they ever do. Sometimes anecdotal evidence ends up being factual, even if someone's use of the English language isn't up to your standards.
Sometimes it does, but most of the time it doesn't. That is why they pay the biologists and not the fisherman.
Edit to add: How are muskies "nobler" than pike? I must have missed the class on fish nobleness? Or are you saying you value muskies more than pike, therefore your opinion is worth more than that of the Darkhouse leader? Seems snobby to me. Maybe the fly fisherman are recruiting? Acceptance in the club comes with a lovely salmon surf shirt!
I'm not advocating the spearing of muskies, but simply because someone's opinion differs from yours, doesn't make yours "nobler".
Maybe you should try out for Jeopardy.
Already did and made it past the online test. Unfortunately the applicant pool is so large that it becomes a lottery after you pass the test. Maybe if they allowed spearing of the applicant pool? Get rid of the less noble applicants.
I don't agree with musky spearing on most lakes, but I think it could be valuable on others even if only for a few years. The fact is harvest is harvest no matter the form. It doesn't matter if it is hook and line, spear, dynamite or rotenone. Regulation of harvest numbers, a quota if you will would be effective in limiting trophy fish loss. If the season closes after X amount of fish over a certain length are speared, you might see some selectivity in number and size of fish speared.
I don't have a problem with people expressing their opinion. I have a problem with people blatantly believing their opinion is more right than others. To a pike fisherman, there is not species better than a pike. To a musky angler there is no better fish than a musky. To a peacock bass fisherman, the pike and musky don't mean squat. It doesn't make someone's target species more or less "noble". Claiming one fish is more noble than another is laughable and snobby. It is why the musky crowd gets such a big push back from other angling groups. The elite and pious attitudes portrayed by a large faction of the musky community does the group no favors and puts them in a bad light.
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| Pointerpride102 - 10/20/2011 9:28 PM
I don't have a problem with people expressing their opinion. I have a problem with people blatantly believing their opinion is more right than others. To a pike fisherman, there is not species better than a pike. To a musky angler there is no better fish than a musky. To a peacock bass fisherman, the pike and musky don't mean squat. It doesn't make someone's target species more or less "noble". Claiming one fish is more noble than another is laughable and snobby. It is why the musky crowd gets such a big push back from other angling groups. The elite and pious attitudes portrayed by a large faction of the musky community does the group no favors and puts them in a bad light.
I couldn't agree more with this statement.
I spear and fish muskies and can say I hear rediculous things said by both sides.
I think it's rediculous that some muskie anglers think that muskie populations are going to be affected by spearing. There are many MN lakes that allow both and have very healthy muskie populations. If you want to help muskie populations then take the effort you put in to stop spearing into educating people on C&R and proper handling tequniques and you'll save more muskies that spear fisherman will ever accidentaly kill.
Now to the other side, to say that spearing won't affect the population of large pike and that spearfisherman don't target large fish is rediculous. I have seen and know too many idiots that brag about how big of a pike they speared and for nothing but a picture.
And for the record I do not support the opening up of Cass lake to spearing but I really don't think it will affect anything. Cass lake is not very accessable in the winter it's a large lake and there isn't a large population of people in the area that are going to spear it so I wouldn't be too worried about it.
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Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | Obviously folks in the DNR and legislature put a value or "nobleness" on some fish more tha nothers, otherwise there would be no distinction amongst species as far as limits/seasons etc, and certainly not between "gamefish" and "roughfish". I'd be able to rig up a walleye the same as I am a sucker.
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Picking apart somone's choice of adjectives for a muskie seems a little silly.
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Location: The desert | castmaster - 10/21/2011 12:12 PM
Obviously folks in the DNR and legislature put a value or "nobleness" on some fish more tha nothers, otherwise there would be no distinction amongst species as far as limits/seasons etc, and certainly not between "gamefish" and "roughfish". I'd be able to rig up a walleye the same as I am a sucker.
Thanks for making my point. Anglers put the distinction on what species they prefer and lobby the DNR and/or legislature. Look at the CC hears in Wisconsin. The DNR is made up of public employees working FOR the public. Look no further than how this spearing ban got lifted. A special interest group put a high value on spearing pike. |
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Location: Breezy Point, MN | As a transplant who has lived in Minnesota now for almost two years, it is painfully obvious that local politicians in St. Paul are being swayed by a couple of influential allies who do not have the interests of the general public in mind. It just so happens that one of these influential people who is a dark house spearer absolutely HATES muskies, musky anglers and Muskies, Inc and has some major allies in St. Paul. The battle for Gull Lake here a few years ago was a classic example of the MDNR choosing a large body of water to create a quality musky fishery, and getting approval from the local lake association and the general public, and then mysteriously, the whole stocking plan ends suddenly in St. Paul by some dumb city-iot politician swayed by a high profile person in bed with "No More Muskies" who flat out HATES muskies. These same politicians who killed the Gull Lake musky project were "bought out" by this group for one sole selfish purpose: DARK HOUSE ASSOCIATION. One of these politicians had lake property on Gull and killed the deal. This same selfishness and anti-musky propaganda that is contantly on display by these fanatic zealots is appaling, as is their hatred towards muskies and musky anglers alike. All for what? Last I checked, there are PLENTY of lakes available in this great state to spear a few "picklers" to fill the freezer.
The Dark House Association and No More Muskies groups got passionately involved in shooting down the Lower South Long Lake stocking plan this past year, brainwashing the local lake association members through their rhetorical propoganda that musky anglers and ONLY musky anglers are spreading invasive species to area lakes, and that muskies will eat the entire lake out of other fish species (a classic No More Muskies scare tactic). Fact is, name one trophy musky lake in MN, and I will also show you that these same lakes are awesome walleye and pike fisheries, as well as bass and panfish along with big muskies. I fish these same lakes hard for all species, and I have seen first hand what great walleye lakes Mille Lacs and Leech are, yet they have good populations of the "hated" muskies in them.
This fanatical group "No More Muskies" unfortunately has a lot of clout in the lovely Liberal Land of MN politics in St. Paul, and these same politicians (whom are all non-anglers) are being swayed by these kooks to believe that muskies are vicious creatures and that all musky fishermen want to take away their pike spearing "traditions". I know some anglers who love to fish muskies and also like to spear pike, but none of the ones I know HATE muskies the way these fanatical groups do.
Never in my life have I seen such politically swayed corruption regarding well researched DNR decisions on potential future musky waters. Remember folks, the DNR biologists ARE the experts, not these nut case pro-pike spearing fanatics who miss their 1960's days of protesting and dope smoking. It's ugly over here, even though the MDNR is solely reponsible for creating arguably the best musky fishing in the continental US over the past fifteen years. The MDNR has lost it's upper hand by allowing groups like "No More Muskies" to actually become a voice in St. Paul with no credible scientific data, and we as musky anglers suffer because of non-angler politicians being swayed by the almighty dollar. In the old days, the MDNR stocked muskies where they wanted, and that was that. They have since emulated the unsuccessful Wisconsin model of getting the government involved, as well as public opinions that have NO scientific merit, to dictate future policies.
Oh and Guest, at least I post my REAL NAME on here. Grow a pair and post your real name on here in the future. It disgusts me that you have to hide under some internet moniker (GUEST). It really shows your lack of credibility. |
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| Saw several reports of 50 plus darkhouses on just one bay of Cass lake. The slaughter has begun. Good look catching a 35" pike during the open water season next year. SAD  |
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Posts: 321
| DJS - 12/26/2011 7:16 PM
Saw several reports of 50 plus darkhouses on just one bay of Cass lake. The slaughter has begun. Good look catching a 35" pike during the open water season next year. SAD :-(
Might have to downsize from the big equipment for the early season/preseason muskie fishing if the pike are going to be so small;) H |
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Posts: 432
Location: mpls | Tom,
I think that you should check some of your facts. The people that pushed this through were not " liberals" . They were republicans. Also , I will point out that , in general the right is not all that swayed by science or scientific fact. If it was the "pot smoking" left- they would pretty much just shut the whole #*^@ thing down( any harming of animals)
Everyone has had their hand in this mess, please don't assign more blame and divisiveness . The truth is, there were shady dealings with unscrupulous people. Who cares what side of the new American devide they were on. Bad people are bad people.
Joe |
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Posts: 321
| uptown - 12/26/2011 11:30 PM
Tom,
I think that you should check some of your facts. The people that pushed this through were not " liberals" . They were republicans. Also , I will point out that , in general the right is not all that swayed by science or scientific fact. If it was the "pot smoking" left- they would pretty much just shut the whole #*^@ thing down ( any harming of animals )
Everyone has had their hand in this mess, please don't assign more blame and divisiveness . The truth is, there were shady dealings with unscrupulous people. Who cares what side of the new American devide they were on. Bad people are bad people.
Joe
Great post, so tired of people who don't get their own way complaining and blaming other parties than their own. H |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | By December 10th there were 56 spear houses in Allen's Bay. Since then there have been many many more. It is a good thing a creel clerk is out there 5 days a week. |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | I don't see anywhere in Tom Dietz's post where he blames liberals for the ban lifted on Cass,.... but he does refer to minn. as " the Lovely Liberal land of MN. Politics" which is right on and hard to argue against.
The point he was trying to make is that there was a lot of back door deals being made with wrong information regarding muskies and muskie anglers, by people that HATE muskies, and want to see them destroyed.
The DNR has it right,........and it's sad to see our elected officals,(demorcrate or republican) just ignore the science of fish/wildlife managment.
Jerome
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | uptown - 12/26/2011 9:30 PM
Tom,
I think that you should check some of your facts. The people that pushed this through were not " liberals" . They were republicans. Also , I will point out that , in general the right is not all that swayed by science or scientific fact. If it was the "pot smoking" left- they would pretty much just shut the whole #*^@ thing down ( any harming of animals )
Everyone has had their hand in this mess, please don't assign more blame and divisiveness . The truth is, there were shady dealings with unscrupulous people. Who cares what side of the new American devide they were on. Bad people are bad people.
Joe
Actually the support/opposition was pretty non-partisan. It came down more on the age differential with more older legislators in favor and the younger ones citing the DNR testimony and going with it. |
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Posts: 432
Location: mpls | O.k.
I guess my point is more that we are all in this together , regardless of what political party you belong. I agree with everything Tom says. Except the city-iot part. I would prefer to be called a 612er
I believe that this last push to get the ban lifted was sponsored by Republicans. The time before this it was Dems. We have had both governors (a Dem and a Repub) shoot it down. I may have gotten a little defensive, I will blame that on the political "discussions" that I have had with my Muskies inc friends up in the Lounge
We all want the same thing. Good Muskie fishing for the long haul in Mn. Let the DNR/science do its job.
Joe |
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Posts: 1638
Location: Minnesota | cass is a musky lake so no spearing name one lake that spearing is allowed on a musky lake |
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Cass? |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Muskyhunter, I think I saw you in that Geico commercial. You popped your head out from under the rock and saw the billboard. Same scenario here. |
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Posts: 633
| This is the list where you can't spear. The rest of the state is open.
Baby* (Cass County)
Bald Eagle (Anoka, Ramsey, and
Washington counties)
Beers* (Otter Tail County)
Big* (Beltrami County)
Big Mantrap* (Hubbard County)
Cross and its Snake River
Flowage* (Pine County)
Deer* (Itasca County)
Eagle (Hennepin County)
Forest (Hennepin County)
Libbs (Hennepin County)
Lobster* (Douglas County)
Mille Lacs (Aitkin, Crow Wing,
and Mille Lacs counties)
Minnetonka (Hennepin and
Carver counties)
Moose* (Itasca County)
North Star* and Little
North Star* (Itasca County)
Owasso (Ramsey County)
Peavey (Hennepin County)
Rebecca (Hennepin County)
Rush * (Chisago County)
Spider* (Itasca County)
Stieger (Carver County)
Sugar* (Wright County)
Tanager (Hennepin County)
Wabedo* (Cass County)
West Battle* (Otter Tail County) |
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Posts: 1638
Location: Minnesota | yes and every one of thoses lakes are musky lakes s |
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Posts: 432
Location: mpls | Ummm, yes ? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | muskyhunter47
The point being Cass is now being speared. Read the thread. |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | MH, only about 25 lakes of the roughly 100 muskie waters have spearing bans on them. They're probably shoot to get the rest of them lifted this year. |
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Posts: 3157
| god help us if tonka is ever open to spearing,,the twin cities immigrant population would wipe it out,, yes they would spear |
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| The average cass lake pike is only about 22 inches. Only a few over 36" were sampled out of a thousand or so pike sampled. Summer fishing takes the big fish, spearing finishes them off. The only logical conservation method is a 24 to 36 inch protected slot like Canada. Banning spearing is a waste of time and effort. Work on putting a Statewide protected pike slot if you want to really make a difference. |
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| Slot limits = de facto spearing ban as far as MDAA and most darkhouse spearers are concerned. Doesn't matter if you're trying to ban spearing impliment a slot. Anything that prevents them from stabbing whatever they want is vigorously opposed. |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Here's a few recent harpooned pike from Cass:
http://www.froggysports.com/SpearingonCass2011.html
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Posts: 313
Location: Bemidji, Lake Vermilion | Bummer on that there First Cast, there are some huge pike in that mix. I sure hope the huge fish by the guy kneeling in the second one down on the left isn't a muskie. Looks awfully lightly colored and both super long and fat in that pic. |
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Posts: 897
| Guess I know one store I'll never spend a dime in. Would be a shame if the ice conditions caused some of his spear houses to fall through... |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | There are a few businesses up here that shouldn't see a dime of anyone's money that has a fisheries first mindset. It is sad to see it happen but you have to look on the bright side of the situation. The surveys over the next five years will show clear evidence of what spearing has done to the lake. |
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Posts: 3157
| kevin cochran - 1/4/2012 7:09 PM
There are a few businesses up here that shouldn't see a dime of anyone's money that has a fisheries first mindset. It is sad to see it happen but you have to look on the bright side of the situation. The surveys over the next five years will show clear evidence of what spearing has done to the lake.
yup and thats when they get the gov to open up season andmuskie spearing,, |
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Unfortunately the science and empiracal evidence mean nothing to those who supported and passed into law lifting the ban on Cass.
If our MN gov. cared about surveys or data Cass lake would have had the ban lifted and a slot put into place, and the lifting of special regs on 15 MN waters never would have happened.
JS |
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Posts: 3157
| Just out of curiousity does anybody ever see the darkhouse assoc have a booth at any of the Minn Sports shows????,,,Our TC MI chapter does I help organize it and have had their members come debate us a few times,,,,Im just wondering if they ever have a public booth |
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Posts: 444
| They had a booth at the ICE show in ST Paul this year, had to bit my tongue and look the other way... |
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