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Posts: 512
| I love to musky fish, but the past few years its getting so crowded! I know its inevitable, but i miss being one of the few boats on the water chucking lures, and the fishing, which is hard to begin with, is getting tougher because of the pressure.. Thats part of the pleasure of fishing for me, getting away from it all. But now, all of its on the water too!!
Its not just musky fishing either, its all species..
Just wondered what your thoughts were on this. Dave
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Posts: 3165
| dont knnow where your from,,,but I think because of alot of what you listed, here in Minn your going to see people leave the sport similar to the flyfishing craze early 90's,, alot of people here have the same opinion,,, it is not the simple mid 40 fish anymore most times out,,,This year I have had less fish go around on a figure 8 then ever before,,
actually electronics and gps have brought a ton of pressure "still have to make em bite" sure but you have more time to concentrate on that now that you can just drive up to the reef
Edited by happy hooker 10/7/2011 1:09 PM
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| I share your option. Gotta find a way to escape the crowds (early hours, weekday fishing, different water) | |
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| Every year I fish less and less during the summer months. I probably wont fish but once or twice in october. I'm waiting for november to roll around and most everyone to winterize their boats. I catch a buzz when I pull in to a launch and see the launch dock is pulled out of the water. | |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | Guest - 10/7/2011 1:23 PM
Gotta find a way to escape the crowds (early hours, weekday fishing, different water)
Or find a way to appreciate new things, all the while trying to set yourself apart...
Dave T. - I don't think you're being selfish, but I'm pretty sure humans are more bothered by the angling pressure than the muskies are. 
Edited by Hammskie 10/7/2011 3:31 PM
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Posts: 619
| The pressure is unreal.. there are alot of really good fisherman out there now that are pretty skilled.. if a fish is going to bite they will catch it and not leave many crumbs behind...in MN i would say in most lakes the populations have gone down pretty significantly on alot of lakes do to pressure..every year its getting harder an harder to catch fish. | |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | Slow Rollin - 10/7/2011 3:34 PM
The pressure is unreal.. there are alot of really good fisherman out there now that are pretty skilled.. if a fish is going to bite they will catch it and not leave many crumbs behind...in MN i would say in most lakes the populations have gone down pretty significantly on alot of lakes do to pressure..every year its getting harder an harder to catch fish.
I suggest trying to suck less, as a temporary solution to this problem.
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Posts: 1308
Location: WI | I'm having my best year ever on a body of water where the pressure is increasing each season. Put in more hours, don't live on the spots that delivered last year. If they suck this year, move on and find new areas. Maybe try lures that you don't see other people using, or slight variations of. | |
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Posts: 2088
| It has to be all them darn out-of-stater's coming to mn  If you live in MN you are blessed!!! | |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I blame it on that internet thing the kids are talking about
Edited by horsehunter 10/7/2011 6:25 PM
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Posts: 797
Location: North Central IL USA | What lakes are you guys referring to? MN is the land of 10,000 lakes. They can't all be crowded??? | |
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Posts: 512
| True, but not all of them have ski's in em!!
Dave | |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Or start fishing Big Body of water like LSC there can be 1000 boats on that body of water and will never see one all day. Plus LSC is on fire.
Edited by PIKEMASTER 10/8/2011 9:24 AM
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Hammskie - 10/7/2011 1:48 PM
Slow Rollin - 10/7/2011 3:34 PM
The pressure is unreal.. there are alot of really good fisherman out there now that are pretty skilled.. if a fish is going to bite they will catch it and not leave many crumbs behind...in MN i would say in most lakes the populations have gone down pretty significantly on a lot of lakes do to pressure..every year its getting harder an harder to catch fish.
I suggest trying to suck less, as a temporary solution to this problem.
Suck or not it's the truth. 10 years ago when I could fish as often as you do with dumber fish it was easy. You are part of a network of GREAT fishermen that spends 1000's of hours on the water a year. It's a hell of a lot easier when you're a part of a group like that (at least it is when I get the chance to descramble the signals of your network :} )
Muskie fishing has changed for the rank and file muskie guys, especially over the last 3-4 years. Now it seems you have to be fishing at a moon phase, outrun people to the spot, every fish has been pinned 3x a year, etc they're not quite as gullible and getting identifiable follows can be a challenge. Not to mention that they actually used to stay on the same spot and follow multiple times a day. You could go back on them multiple times a day because there was only a few others chasing them. Now you need to stick it now or not at all.
There is also the cumulative delayed mortality factor that I think we're starting to see as well. Your group catches 1000's of muskies a year. Now if you take a 3-5% mortality out of that you're looking at quite a few dead fish, and your group is pretty small. Now take a look at everyone in the state, most of whom are not as experienced fish handlers and you have a lot of dead fish. Now add in night fishing with semi-experienced guys and that goes up again.
At the end of the day muskie fishing HAS CHANGED in MN and will continue to do so. This is why we need EVERYONE's help getting new lakes, improving regulations, fighting the anti-muskie crowd, etc so we have a fishery that is worthy to hand down to the next generation of fishermen. | |
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Posts: 20281
Location: oswego, il | You can't get away from the pressure. I think one thing that has happened to Indiana and Minnesota is that alot of the bodies of water have settled in to what they will be like. People also follow hot bites. You cannot get away from it. The people catching the fish are the ones getting there before the masses find out or find out how to fish it. Your never going to go to the same body of water and have the same success. | |
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| 3 or 4 years ago when 50's were piling high the MN DNR surveys showed there were more females over 49" than under 49" in Mille Lacs. everyone knew then that the initial huge stocking year classes would start to fade due to a combination of natural causes, harvest, and delayed mortality. no surprise.
fewer fish plus more fishermen = tougher sledding, but it's still ridiculously fantastic. | |
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Posts: 90
Location: Ohio | Muskie Treats - 10/8/2011 10:17 AM Now take a look at everyone in the state, most of whom are not as experienced fish handlers and you have a lot of dead fish. Now add in night fishing with semi-experienced guys and that goes up again. I am new to this game but why night fishing? is it because the release is slower and/or sloppier? I went night fishing once and thought it would be a PITA unhooking and releasing one at night?
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Posts: 566
Location: Elgin, IL | I don't think you are being selfish, but you are learning about reality.
Like Todd said, try some different spots.
Try multi-species fishing also as a break ?? I still like to hunt for smallies and wallys.
Or, accept the challunge of muskie fishing. Popularity and pressure, It's going to continue. Golf, duck hunting, snowmobiling, are all the same, you just have to adjust.... | |
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| It's a dog eat dog world out there, why should musky fishing be excluded?
For the person who enjoys the solitude, peace and tranquility of musky fishing, look no further than the mirror if you participated in the social network for some sense of achievement. I've been apart of that group thinking my own discoveries and destinations would be shared within just the inner circle. How foolish was I ever to think so.
Within a particular metro area, I use to guide but my client rule was never to consider locals. I don't guide anymore; the new dogs on the block who guide will consider whom ever has the cash and with some, who has the most cash. Buy your way to the shortcuts instead of enduring the challenge and time; the feeling of self-accomplishment is diluted or not even considered.
The internet has local blogs where you can obtain several years worth of seasonal reports for various metro waters. Some of these bloggers experience the same results as you with their current totals far less than in years past; however, they still have the ability to put in the hours that the majority musky rank and filers cannot.
As their names advance within the upper musky world top echelon, you realize that any prior friendship or acquaintance was nothing more than a means to this end.
You're lucky to get a passing glance, a phone call today that was ever present in times past. Your knowledge core was absorded and they went onto their next victim.
Their popularity and continuance is fueled by the new; not the old. Any contact is like before, except the realization of them wanting something and not providing anything is the soup du jour.
Time marches on; nothing last forever. The current crop will be harvested, new seedlings planted. The cycle renews, yet again and again.
Guides pay their friends guide trip with another so long as the hand held GPS is online and recording.
Bow wow, bow wow, bow wow.
I don't think you're being self-fish for wanting the style of musky fishing that provides the most return back to you.
I do think though you maybe foolish for not realizing your part contributing to your problem. | |
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| some truth,,but alot of extreme | |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'I don't guide anymore; the new dogs on the block who guide will consider whom ever has the cash and with some, who has the most cash.'
Really. I'm shocked. What a stupid way to run a business.
'Buy your way to the shortcuts instead of enduring the challenge and time; the feeling of self-accomplishment is diluted or not even considered. '
What a horrible thing to do. Shorten the learning curve by learning some of the ropes from a well seasoned protege, especially if one hasn't the time to put in to learn enough on one's own to begin the path to success. A guide trip does only that...way more to learn than a few guide days will teach.
'As their names advance within the upper musky world top echelon, you realize that any prior friendship or acquaintance was nothing more than a means to this end. '
Pick your friends more carefully, or quit resenting them, perhaps?
'Guides pay their friends guide trip with another so long as the hand held GPS is online and recording.'
That's just stupid. Any 'guide' resorting to that isn't much of a threat anyway.
---------------end of rant
Muskie angling can be just as exciting without solitude. It can be as rewarding as a group as it is alone. You ain't the first to decide to fish Muskies, and you won't be the last. There were those there before you and there will be more during and after you. Other anglers on 'your' water means you have peers, learn to celebrate and enjoy sharing the resource, as the other choice is purposeless resentment.
If you indeed need to be alone on the water, extend the effort, fish the 'off times' , or travel the necessary distance to find water where you can be alone. Don't expect that water to be nearby a major city or a popular destination. Go to the water that WAS hot but isn't anymore, it's likely to be near empty many nights. Find some small water that holds good fish of other species, if hard to get to or requires lots of work to fish the fishing will be even better, and a tight line is good for the spirit.
Muskie angling has been the fastest growing segment in freshwater fishing in the North and Midwest for years. Be happy you have a place to fish them at all, and that your choices are not just one or two destinations. Celebrate your successes and failures alike, it's fishing. Adapt, watch what others are doing and do something much different. Make sure you are on the fish, not fishing where they 'used to be'.
I'm near 60 years old, and have been a muskie angler since I was about 16. There's more opportunities for muskies now than there ever has been, and the fishing is better than I've ever seen it looking at big picture.
Enjoy.
Or not.
That's a choice, IMO. | |
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Posts: 597
Location: deephaven mn | catching a muskie is hard to do, i believe in a day of muskie fishing on metro water your going to get one chance at a good fish........don't blow it, there are still times when pressure is down but its not on saturday | |
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Posts: 8865
| The internet has brought all the best kept secrets to the great unwashed masses. It has also helped a great many anglers to advance in the sport, in ways and in a timeframe that a lifetime of fishing wouldn't have allowed 30 years ago. Armed with nothing more than an internet connection and the ability to read, the average angler can start out with a pretty good idea of what lakes to fish, where, and how and when, and with what. What rods work best, what reels work best, what lures work best, how to work them, when to throw them, where to throw them and at what types of structure, what times of the year, on what lakes in what areas, and even what to to trigger the fush when they follow.
And as the other guest mentioned, you can buy the knowledge, by hiring a person or 10 for a day or a week or a month who has dedicated their lives to catching muskies. As with anything else, money talks. Money gets results where lack of money never will.
Or, you can go out there, year after year after decade, blindly flinging baits at whatever and trying to figure out what happened and why, and trying to recreate that on some other lake, on some other type of spot, at some other time of year under completely different conditions, wondering why the spot you caught fish on once 5 years ago seems to be worthless today. And you can be completely oblivious to all the other resources out there, or flat out refuse to use them, because your way is "better"...
I think you will find that in the end we're all just out there to catch fish, and have a good time, learn something, and make sure that the fishing is as good (or even better) tomorrow, next year, or ten years from now.
We're all playing for the same team. How we got there really doesn't matter. If you fail to understand that, maybe you need to re-think your motivations for fishing in the first place.
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| Probably the number one element of consideration: business.
For some, musky fishing is a business, it's how they derive their lively hood.
For others, it's a sport or a form of renewal or an adventure into their concept of wilderness.
The business people will of course sell their wares and the consumer will of consequence be left to beware.
Resentment? Hardly.. Their snake oil was too transparent not to predict. Foolish for believing otherwize, spot on.
Again, look into the mirror for the reasons why, start with yourself.
And, if you wear glasses, put them on this time.
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No reason for anyone here to apologize for your personal social issues, those are yours alone; deal with them however you wish without transferal.
This country and the rest of the world runs on business.
The marine and fishing business is all about actually going fishing which means all about enjoying the resource. Anyone doesn't get that can always join Green Peace or PETA for the alternate reality they seek.
The axiom 'build it and they will come' ain't just for baseball in corn fields. Tell Reeds and Thorne Bros and BPS and Gander and Stony Point and Frankies and Simply Fishing and MTO and R&H and dozens of Guides and even Treats himself and Musky Hunter and OFM and the PMTT and Paul Hartman and Spring Bay and alllll the rest of your woes and insist all these folks stop what they are doing because all the activity disturbs you. Good luck with that.
The lakes in your state and mine are not managed for your or my personal enjoyment. The tax dollars that support the framework that allows Muskie fishing to be what it is now and to expand in the future, and a few dollars from special interest groups like us and others make it so. It's a public resource, and the entire idea is commerce and public use that drives a pretty significant segment of our local economies. Without the model under which our fisheries are managed, fishing would totally suck. The more anglers we have involved the more the sport will grow and the more support we have for the sport, the more waters will be managed for muskies. Those are the facts....and it's obvious; every time there's an issue, this community is called upon to act. It's a bad idea to alienate a large section of the community...you may need them to help preserve the sport you love some day.
I openly support growing this sport and have spent most of my life doing what I can to help. Always have, and always will. No apologies there, either, and other than the fact I'm not as young as I used to be and need to lose some weight and my hair fell out, the mirror isn't a problem.
To the original question, no, 'selfish' isn't the right word. Adjust your expectations, adapt to the changes that will come your way, and support MI, your DNR, the folks who truly do try to assist in managing a good fishery and educating those of us new to the sport. Oh, and if you really do care and are up to it, find a way to engage in the battle with those who would weaken those efforts. Your state has a serious issue with special interests successfully micromanaging the resource through politics.
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| Of course you are being selfish, I can recall the last decade or so we have had to send emails and make phone calls to stop groups like no more muskie and try to stop the latest spearing bill on Cass. The internet and those people in other states made it possible for you to fish those waters as much or perhaps more than you. Not sure how involved you are in the process of protecting and promoting the fishery. We you see those other boats out there fishing realize because of the internet they were probably a key part in why the lake has muskie in it to begin with.
However I will add, nothing really wrong with feeling that way, also there are still spots to fish that have solitude and great muskies as well. Just wanted to mention the great fisheries of today are a big product of the internet and the support it allows us to organize. BR | |
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Posts: 512
| Im impressed with some of the insightful people on this website..
Really interesting views..
Dave | |
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| In a way. I'm with you. I enjoy being able to spend time on the water in solitude. But, more and more, you have to be willing to spend time on waters that are just plain harder to fish in order to do so. It doesn't mean you can't catch fish, it just means you have to rethink you're strategies and put some more time in imo. And learn to keep your mouth shut once you start figuring it out.
BUT.. I also think the fishing over all is far better than it was when I started fishing in the '80s. That is in no small part to fishing pressure. We all may enjoy 'solitude' but I have no reason to believe the state(s) don't look at fisheries as an investment. For them to get an ROI they need people (pressure) targeting these fish to justify their decision to manage lakes for musky - or whatever species in question.
Thats my opinion anyway. Could care less about guides, been around long enough to know most of them will come and go, its a pretty tough racket I hear. | |
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| I hear what you're saying Dave---- I really do! When I started fishing the Indiana lakes around 17 years ago---there was literally NO pressure whatsoever. I fished the first weekend of Nov 1995 and only saw 3 other boats the whole weekend. As we both already know, those days are long gone. Although it has become more difficult--- good musky waters are plentiful--- and, if you can fish some off peak times/days you can STILL find some solitude. NO, you're not being selfish to wish for the "good ol' days"---just remember----the fishing, imho, has gotten better the last 17 years, even with all the pressure. Good thing that the muskies don't care how many of us are up here chasing 'em. Have a great fall---Jobu | |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | At the end of the day you need to fish for the reasons that matter most to you. Larry Dahlberg has a great theory on the progression of an muskie angler:
1. Want to catch one
2. Want to catch many
3. Want to catch a big one
4. Want to catch many big ones
5. Want to catch them the way you want to catch them
If you can self identify yourself as to which category you fit into you can tailor your efforts on waters that can help you meet your own personal goal. There are still waters in MN that fit each of those categories, you just need to look around a little and be willing to travel to those areas. If you haven't, join a Muskies Inc Chapter and get to know the guys. This is a great resource that can help you get to where you want to go. (Sorry, couldn't pass on the chance to plug MI).
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Posts: 3926
| What a hoot to read this #*#*.
Some observations...
* The articulate Guest is recognized by his writing style. Trust me, I know ranters and how we write.
* The ideas presented riled up SteveW so much he wrote a considered response. Hmmm. Prob because when you hear a sniper's bullets go into you and yer buddies they sound like "zip" and feel like "smack".
* Treats' opinion is always informed and solid. Except for that time when he drenched our boat with water and sand heading out from the docks at a Cass Lake Outing. I bareley had time to cover my reels, ya jerk.
* Folks who be discouraged with the state of muskie fishing affairs can always switch to targeting other fish. Head for the rivers to catch a 40# flathead or a 8# steelhead or a 30# carp.
* Don't fish at all. Sell all your stuff and buy diving gear and go swimming with the muskies. And turtles and muskrats and all sorts of critters. (If you choose this one I want all yer Suicks.)
* Wait for a nice calm night. With a big moon, too. Put your boat in the water then do a hit of acid. Crash a bonfire till yer too silly to communicate with mortals. Head back out to the water and play with Topraiders and a Q-Beam. Blaze around the lake all nite then sit back and watch a sunrise.
Selfish? No yer not being selfish. Change is the only sure bet. | |
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| Mantra: no need to apologize when the dogs of consumerisms eulogize.
Go forth and seek new solitary waters they speak.
And when the dogs of consumerisms find you again, go forth and seek new solitary waters – they will always speak.
And when there are no more waters, go fish something other than this matter.
They appeal for your participation - without it the world comes to an end, yet they do onto you their expense of your enjoyment. Their means to your end favors solely onto them, there is no concern for each and everybody, but please keep paying the subscription.
Your participation lead you to where you are, keep on participating they say to keep you where you are.
The mirror's reflection starts with you, ends with you.
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Posts: 1120
Location: West Chester, OH | Guest - 10/10/2011 6:40 AM
Mantra: no need to apologize when the dogs of consumerisms eulogize.
Go forth and seek new solitary waters they speak.
And when the dogs of consumerisms find you again, go forth and seek new solitary waters – they will always speak.
And when there are no more waters, go fish something other than this matter.
They appeal for your participation - without it the world comes to an end, yet they do onto you their expense of your enjoyment. Their means to your end favors solely onto them, there is no concern for each and everybody, but please keep paying the subscription.
Your participation lead you to where you are, keep on participating they say to keep you where you are.
The mirror's reflection starts with you, ends with you.
Looks like someone wants to Occupy Lake X.... | |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Ranger - 10/9/2011 11:41 PM
Except for that time when he drenched our boat with water and sand heading out from the docks at a Cass Lake Outing. I bareley had time to cover my reels, ya jerk.
LMAO!!!! I totally forgot about that one. For the record, a certain non-slim Shady was behind the wheel if I remember right. | |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'They appeal for your participation - without it the world comes to an end, yet they do onto you their expense of your enjoyment. Their means to your end favors solely onto them, there is no concern for each and everybody, but please keep paying the subscription. '
What subscription?
When there are no more waters...foo. Without broad participation and wide interest, there would not be the waters that didn't have muskies 1000 years ago, and thee sure as sure wouldn't be new.
Remember the post by Todd Forcier a few weeks back about his tournament stocking muskies? He bought those from the Woodruff hatchery. It's a good chance my son probably stripped spawn from the muskie that those fish came from, and probably the suckers from which the food for that muskie was raised. Expensive stuff, raising muskies. The hatchery could have directed those resources toward walleyes, after all, far more folks fish those than muskies, right? I'm glad demand dictated muskies, personally. Stupid tournament anglers, and darn the internet promotion of a consumer event, it all reeks of consumerism.
This guy IS a 'dog' of consumerism, whatever that is...he's using a computer on the internet to complain about people using computers on the internet. He muskie fishes, so he buys lures, a fishing license, and maybe pays a launch fee or two, he bought a net, and I'd bet he has a fishing hat with a corporate logo on it. My suggestion to this guy is a cabin n Alaska, wayyyyyy back in the absolute nowhere of it. Be careful around the bears, and don't forget to put up a winter's heat and food.
Gotta buy gas and lures and a boat and rods and leaders and reels and all the other things that the activity necessitates. I WOULD recommend joining a MI club if one hasn't, though, and there's a membership fee, I guess, but that one I leave to the reader.
Muskie fishing is what you make of it, and that's about it. Deal with the realities of the sport as you wish, I choose to participate wide spectrum.
I don't even have a dog, you can call home and ask my wife. | |
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| When the dogs of consumerism's eulogy is trumped, their banter, for what little it matters, resembles effigy and contemptuous.
For they not live by one of our lands golden rules - do onto others as they would prefer, opting to commercialize and justify their preferences over another.
When rebuttals are riddles containing a true sportsman's value of gold, the dogs of consumerism's seem unable to behold. Their reflection from the glass values themselves and no more, for they strive to over flight sell, leaving behind passengers whose reality is just to abhor.
Pay the piper for their flute will sound, with more over-runs and crowding than waters do abound.
Activism for more waters to handle the overflow when the dogs of consumerism's created this show.
Makes little sense to me as understanding my reflection has set me free, to finally bypass their glitter and ask not what they can do for me, but to me. | |
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| hey selfish works!!!! look at what the darkhouse spearing is getting away with!!! | |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | hooker, point exactly. Guest, take a valium. Please. If, however, you followed Ranger's advice, please wait for 48 hours, THEN take a Valium. | |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | Kellet, I'm still a #1... just want to catch ONE. My point from the "sucking less" post above is that muskie fishing is growing to be what it is... not changing from what it should be.
Muskie Treats - 10/8/2011 9:17 AM
At the end of the day muskie fishing HAS CHANGED in MN and will continue to do so. This is why we need EVERYONE's help getting new lakes, improving regulations, fighting the anti-muskie crowd, etc so we have a fishery that is worthy to hand down to the next generation of fishermen.
I enjoy the point made here. Agreed, and thank you. | |
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Posts: 433
Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | Not selfish at all. I loved it when the fishing sucked in the "bad old days". I could go out and fish where ever I wanted pretty much and had practically no competition. I caught a lot bigger fish on average then to. Once the numbers of fishermen increased the level of enjoyment decreased. Sure, it may be the "good old days" now because there are more bigger fish than ever caught, but when you divide them by the number fishing for them you come up on the short end of the math. As you progress with your fishing abilities, it seems more and more people want a quality experience, not a quantity experience. Numbers of boats do not count as quality. | |
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Posts: 121
Location: Forest Lake, MN & Bemidji, MN | Sounds like a lot of people should never leave the house...do you need to be the only one in a good restaurant?
If you owned your own private lake you would b**ch about the taxes. Muskie fishing is fun, people are going to do it. Deal with it. | |
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | I don't know. I just go fishing. If we can fish, its a good day. It we catch fish, its a great day.
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Location: North Central IL USA | Herb_b - 10/10/2011 4:37 PM
I don't know. I just go fishing. If we can fish, its a good day. It we catch fish, its a great day.
Amen! | |
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Posts: 512
| jfreborg - 10/10/2011 3:04 PM
Sounds like a lot of people should never leave the house...do you need to be the only one in a good restaurant?
If you owned your own private lake you would b**ch about the taxes. Muskie fishing is fun, people are going to do it. Deal with it.
Yes, if theres only 3 or 4 steaks in the lake!!
Dave | |
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| Or it could be that "Guest" is just another consumer of which he rants about and you should wash all of his opinion down the toilet while he talks about himself. You say No? Is he not one who follows the writers blog, or is he just a newborn couch potato who has retired from sportsman to reader and write of Muskie Philosophy?  | |
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| Part of the problem in MN is the fishing is too good. Let me explain; 90% of the anglers dont know or have forgotten what Muskie fishing was as recently as 15 years ago. Fortunately then we had fewer anglers to impact the fishery, a few men saw what was going on and got ahead of things and the MN DNR added a big slug of new lakes that have made what we have today.
Build it and they will come; no better quote has ever been written, now anglers are complacent, fishing is good but there are too many of us and too few lakes.
I feel those of us who have been working to get new lakes have failed miserably, considering there are 100,000 + Muskie fisherman in MN only about 10-15% will take time to call or write a letter (we found out 15000 aint enough, they crapped on us).
I'm not sure how to get through to you that you could have it all, you could have 25 new lakes in MN possibly more, now we suffer with too few lakes and a system that will not build for the future.
I suppose when we start harpooning them the fishing will get better.
Its your fishery, call the commissioner, call your local representatives and &^$^ing do something about it.
DNR ask for the Commissioner's office 888-646-6367
MN Representatives http://www.gis.leg.mn/OpenLayers/districts/
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| A shot of JD, with a chaser of Adam’s brew, forgoes the need of your suggestion to re-establish my life anew.
The dogs of consumerism’s eulogies have gone flat, with latest remarks resembling those of a young brat.
For those of us, our reflections now shining through are as clear as the wonderful sky’s blue.
For that rank and filer, having planned their only week long stay, they now stand in line at reef’s edge while the dog’s of consumerism practice their foray.
For the beginner, their involvements are wide eyed, but eventually that cut-off will dampen their spirits to the point of being fried.
More lakes, more involvement, the ice spearing generation alarms, the dog’s of consumerism now proclaim this harm.
Be it a song of old or a new lyric never heard, the musky sportsman of nature’s tranquility will still be left holding one big turd.
For their bait and switch will always remain, you change not me will always be their disdain.
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There is a big difference between what is good for the fishery and what is good for the business of fishing.
The fishery in MN was built before the masses were convinced they needed to go out and buy DBL 10's, 9' rods and saltwater reels. Before everybody became a bait maker and rod seller. It didn't need the help of the internet or anything else to get it started.
The numbers of fishermen have increased 10 fold but the money put into stocking fish or other programs is still the same as it always has been. The same few guys and clubs are raising the cash and doing the work to try to catch up to what the "business" of fishing has handed us.
The "good old days" were 10 years ago. Now we are on the downhill slide. Fish numbers are decreasing, lakes are so crowded (with people who can't fish with any common courtesy) that the experience of fishing has soured many.
Personally I don't pick to go to crowded places to eat either. Why would I?
Funny how defensive some people get when others proclaim that they don't like the pressure of today. Why should we? It isn't positive in any way for most of us.
JS
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| my dad started me in 1956. . from the days of eating all we caught till now. society and its quirks has made many seasoned folks to fish and stay silent. the internet explores and tells all. theres many that choose to be silent on catches.
as for being selfish, explore new areas, fish off times. muskies do eat year round daily. | |
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Location: Okoboji | Guest - 10/11/2011 5:59 AM
A shot of JD, with a chaser of Adam’s brew, forgoes the need of your suggestion to re-establish my life anew.
The dogs of consumerism’s eulogies have gone flat, with latest remarks resembling those of a young brat.
For those of us, our reflections now shining through are as clear as the wonderful sky’s blue.
For that rank and filer, having planned their only week long stay, they now stand in line at reef’s edge while the dog’s of consumerism practice their foray.
For the beginner, their involvements are wide eyed, but eventually that cut-off will dampen their spirits to the point of being fried.
More lakes, more involvement, the ice spearing generation alarms, the dog’s of consumerism now proclaim this harm.
Be it a song of old or a new lyric never heard, the musky sportsman of nature’s tranquility will still be left holding one big turd.
For their bait and switch will always remain, you change not me will always be their disdain.
what?!?! | |
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Posts: 60
Location: Colgate, WI | As someone that is new to Musky fishing, I'll tell you guys that the "Good Old Days/Glory Days" syndrome exists everywhere. Just because someone has been doing something longer than a newcomer, doesn't give special privilege to continue to enjoy that pastime as if the world is standing still and nothing has changed. Sure, you can skip the latest trend in electronics, boats, tackle, etc... but the sport will evolve.
Ask any longtime golfer, car guy, shooting enthusiast or anyone else with a special interest. Maybe it's a fad, maybe not. Nevertheless, the world is simply more crowded these days.
Growth of interest and the business of fishing is a good thing, because without growth the sport would eventually be lost.
Things aren't worse, they're just different...
Blair
Edited by Lucky Loon 10/11/2011 8:45 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What is Muskies Inc? Do they charge to become a member? Do they hit every business they can to acquire prizes for their meetings, and work hard to grow membership, put out an expensive magazine and operate an expensive website? Do they promote muskie fishing and place education of the new anglers brought into the sport as paramount? Do they sponsor competition within the club and from prospective members to raise funds? Does each club hire expert speakers to entertain and educate the membership and draw in new members, and are not a large percentage of those speakers guides and industry folk? Who provides the funds for the stocking and other projects MI does get done? It ain't you personally or a few others, it's the membership.... and the public from fund raisers. Come on, MI is intimately involved in the business of fishing and always has been. It is not mutually exclusive.
There are literally hundreds of folks folks involved in organized muskie angling who have worked hard to see the sport of muskie angling grow through expanded opportunity since the early 80's. Never once have I heard an official exclusionary message from any MI club, and I'm pretty sure no MI member or club has ever laid exclusive claim to any one fishery. Examine the total costs of each State's fisheries muskie management program, and the actual participation from the public at large including MI, and tell me we collectively could even come close to getting it done without the State DNR budget.
My entire point is this:
If you fish for muskies, you are part of the 'problem'. You represent part of the crowd. Who the hell are you to decide who should or should not be welcome to fish? You bought your boat, and the rest of your gear, so seriously...shut up about consumerism being the problem...without it the fisheries would not exist as they do. On one hand you beg us to participate, and on the other curse our participation.
Managing the resource should be the responsibility of the biologists the State pays to get that done. As MI or other club members, we can and do influence the decisions made, but don't (Thank God) run the program. Riding along on a few boom shocking or netting projects doesn't make anyone a fisheries employee, those folks are working every day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year for pay that a mid level big box store employee wouldn't take. Sure, the assistance and involvement of clubs and the public are appreciated, and activists can sway the direction of the machine at times and pay for the wheels to be greased once or twice a year, but we are not 'the program' and it's plain delusional to either pretend or actually believe we are. Perhaps it goes to personal motive with some folks.
Now it's politics attacking our sport and taking the management of the program out of the hands of the experts we pay through the State budgets to take care of our sport in both MN and WI, and I'm saying that's a far larger looming problem than new muskie anglers will ever be...coupled with the current depression in the State budgets, it could do more damage in a couple years than all other possible problems combined. Fool is right on, dead center, bullseye on that count.
If you look around on some old threads here, I believe it was pointed out several years ago this would happen. It did. Whining about it or trying to point fingers isn't going to do squat. Dealing with reality and doing all we can to expand and improve opportunity might. At least a little.
To every single new muskie angler now and into the future; WELCOME. It's your ranks that will fill the voids when us crabby, self centered old farts fade off into the past.
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If 1/2 of the new anglers that are brought into the fold by the internet, TV shows and guides would step up and make an effort to improve muskie fishing then we'd be well on our way to a bright future.
Until that happens we're in the same place we were before the new lakes got started.
To many people wanting to use the same fishery. That inevitably results in the fishery declining both in numbers and in quality of fishing experience.
Maybe some of us wouldn't be so crabby if the rest of the muskie world (other than about 10%) gave a rats butt about anything other than doing whatever it takes to catch a 50"er.
JS | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | JS,
That's the reality of the human condition. I'm #*^@ed glad 10% do care, and if we approach the 90% for what the 10% need to get the job done, there it is.
The way it is, and always has been. | |
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Location: Hudson, WI | For personal enlightenment, please let me hear your opinion, JS. I go to the MN Expo and sign the petitions for new lakes, even though I'll never fish them. I pay $45 for an out of state license, even though I've fished Waconia once and Miltona twice this year. I didn't cut anyone off either time, that I know of. I also bought a bunch of cowgirls and a few other baits made in Minnesota.
Is that okay, or am I just another part of the decay of the Minnesota fishery? | |
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| You can take personally what you want to out of what I say or write.
It's not up to me to decide if an individual agrees with me, feels guilty or gets poed.
I'm not here to pat anyone on the back or call anyone out individually.
I'm just telling it like it is from my point of view.
JS
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Location: Hudson, WI | I'm not emotionally invested at all. I'm just asking for your opinion. Tell it like it is from your viewpoint. Have I done enough for the musky fishery in Minnesota to be able to fish there, or do I need to bring more to the table? | |
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If you don't agree with the opinions I have that's fine with me. Trying to make me out to look like a bad guy doesn't change the message one way or the other.
I'm not going to play your little game.
JS
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Location: Van Buren, Indiana | I kinda like the competition! It makes me dig deep and see how good I "think" I am. It's also kind of nice when you have had good action on a given day and boats roll by and have not had any luck! I have also learned the value of picking apart a spot. Previous statements are true even if there is lots of traffic Muskie's will still eat! I'm in school full time pursuing a B.S in Nursing, and the kids are in all of their stuff, (you guys know what I mean!), so any time on the water with the kids chasing Muskie, Bass or Gills is like Gold these days, and catching anything just sweetens the pot! We also have many lakes to choose from here in Indiana. Dave plan a trip to Brookeville, I can guarantee you won't be crowded, and there is some Big Girls in there! | |
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Location: Hudson, WI | JS, I apologize for making you look like the bad guy. In fact, I think you're right. So, here goes:
I, in the name of Allah, would like to make myself a martyr to all other muskie fisherman and give it up for good. No longer will I crowd up the lake for everyone else. I am selling all of my gear for various food items such as apples and bakery goods, as monetary profit is not in the best interest of others. To the muskie world, I leave Catfish Bar on the St. Croix River. It is a neckdown area with weeds and lots of baitfish. You should be able to catch 3 a day there now, since I won't be there once every two weeks anymore.
I will now be trout fishing full-time. You will find me fly casting on dry land, so as not to interfere with other fishermen or possible damage a trout's mouth. | |
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| Guest - 10/11/2011 9:11 AM
If 1/2 of the new anglers that are brought into the fold by the internet, TV shows and guides would step up and make an effort to improve muskie fishing then we'd be well on our way to a bright future.
Until that happens we're in the same place we were before the new lakes got started.
To many people wanting to use the same fishery. That inevitably results in the fishery declining both in numbers and in quality of fishing experience.
Maybe some of us wouldn't be so crabby if the rest of the muskie world (other than about 10%) gave a rats butt about anything other than doing whatever it takes to catch a 50"er.
JS
Seriously, John?
People have jobs and lives and families and careers. They may get a few weekends off, or maybe two weeks vacation over the course of a year, and all they want to do is go out and catch a fish or two. The money one needs to spend just to outfit themselves with a rod, reel, some rain gear, and a handful of lures might be all the disposable income they have in a year. Are you REALLY saying that those folks, are part of a "problem"? You just turned 95% of the muskie anglers into villians, because they just want to go out and catch a fish. So maybe they hire a guide or two, spend a week at a lodge, whatever. You expect them to spend that time improving the sport instead? It's one or the other for most folks. If they spend their time and energy on improving muskie fishing, they won't have time to fish. What good is a lake full of fish to someone who no longer has time to enjoy it?
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I never called anyone a villian.
I never said there is a "minimum" amount of work/donating that people have to do to be able to muskie fish.
But the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of those that do muskie fish don't "give back". That is a sad fact that none of you can deny.
The fishery cannot sustain the pressure it has on it and it would be nice if more would get involved.
If those statements are so offensive to some of you that you feel the need to give me a horsewhipping, and act like expecting others to care as much about the fishery as they do about catching fish is outragous than so be it.
Many of you do care, that's great. But the majority of the anglers don't show it in any way.
JS | |
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Guest;
That was either some good sarcasm or some really bad logic.
Thanks either way.
JS | |
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| JS, i wonder if people are reacting more to the "feel" of what you wrote, than the content. you're right on the facts...it's true that many/most people do not "give back." however, (and correct me if i'm wrong) it sounds like you believe this is from apathy, disinterest, or just plain selfishness. i've noticed that many of the most active members of my local MI chapter are older: retired or nearing retirement and no kids at home. they have the time to lead projects and activities that younger folks with jobs and kids simply can't give up, even when they might want to do so. my belief is that many people actually do care, and more people would "give back" if they had the time or if they were specifically invited to do easier short-term tasks. my hope is that we continue to get future waves of people who are willing to shoulder the heaviest lifting...we'll need them...and peeing them off now by calling them apathetic isn't going to help. instead, maybe we could do a better job of honoring and exhorting the "doers" and leaders in the grass roots efforts so that it would inspire others to become more active? | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | how do you earn a "care" button?
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| I'm not attacking you, John.
I'm just pointing out the fact that the vast majority of anglers probably have nothing to GIVE. It takes time, money, and the right personality to go out there and improve fishing. The folks you speak of, crowding your lakes? I'd venture to say that they don't know that muskie fishing NEEDS any improvement. They aren't aware of the issues, they know nothing about fisheries, and they wouldn't know what to do or how, even if they KNEW there was work to be done. They just go out there, when they are able, and go fishing, and go home. The come to MN on vacation, buy their licenses, spend their money in the resorts, restaurants, and tackle shops, and then they go back to their lives, and muskie fishing doesn't even exist in their world until next year's trip. | |
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Location: Forest Lake, MN & Bemidji, MN | jfreborg - 10/10/2011 3:04 PM
Sounds like a lot of people should never leave the house...do you need to be the only one in a good restaurant?
If you owned your own private lake you would b**ch about the taxes. Muskie fishing is fun, people are going to do it. Deal with it.
Yes, if theres only 3 or 4 steaks in the lake!!
Dave
Nothing personal Dave, I don't know you and because you fish muskies you are likely a great guy. But yes, you are being selfish. I was born and raised in Bemidji, MN and have seen plenty of other people I don't know fishing in plenty of places I have grown up fishing over the years. So I wait my turn and fish it different or I go fish another spot. I don't say I fished this in the 90's or the 80's or whenever so you should leave. As long as people are respectful I always try to say hello to a fellow angler and ask how the action is when the opportunity presents itself. If they are not respectful I will politely educate them to the cut off or whatever, but the fact is they have just as much right to be there as I do. I rarely participate in any of these discussions because it's depressing to me. I was pretty bummed out seeing so many people with the mentailty that something is "theirs" a lake, a spot, a technique or whatever. Like Steve said "who the hell are you to decide who should or should not be able to fish" I don't think anyone using the internet was the first guy to ever target a musky so get over yourselves, me included. If you are fishing in traffic use it as an opportunity to test your ability and appreciate the fact you are doing something you love. Or just give up, it's up to you. If you are ever in Bemidji I hope you catch a pig. Jeremy | |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Which again begs the question, what do you have to give to be worthy enough to fish? | |
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| Moltisanti - 10/11/2011 12:15 PM
Which again begs the question, what do you have to give to be worthy enough to fish?
$500 and 20 hrs of community service. Next time read the fine print when you purchase your license. | |
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| JS - So what in your opinion should an out of state person, like me, that spends several thousand dollars per year in MN (chasing these crazy fish) do to improve your states muskie fishing? | |
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| Excuse me for my ignorance JS, this is only my 4th year muskie fishing and it's great. However, who are you and what have you done to improve the fisheries? (Not saying you havn't done anything as I'm sure you have, but what exactly?) I live in WI, I attended and voted to raise the statewide limit to 40" as that is the least I felt I could do. However, I really don't know what else I can do. I am not a member of Muskies Inc. because the closest chapter is 90 miles from me, otherwise, I would love to join if I could actually make it to the meetings.
Some of what you say is true. I am out for a 50". But I also believe the stages of muskie fishing someone had posted a couple days ago. I've caught quite a few smaller muskies with my PB being 46", so the next goal of mine is the first 50", even a 48" for that matter.
I even thought about starting a musky club of some sort locally but people would probably laugh at me. I know there are many guys in the area that have tons more knowledge than me and what are they doing?
Please, what are some examples of things us "young, new, don't give a #%$ muskie anglers could do to improve the fisheries? BTW, I've never fished in MN if that's your gripe. I see all the big fish caught over there just like anybody else but I don't go running. Probably because the fact I can't afford it. I am fine fishing the local lakes in my area and taking a camping trip a couple times a year to northern WI and I can guarantee you one thing. I do care, and would do anything to help my local lakes and I believe I have much more interest in Langlade/Oneida county than you.
Please enlighten me. Or is it just MN you care about?
Edited by MartinTD 10/11/2011 12:50 PM
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| John Skarie is a muskie Inc officer I'm sure he has done a TON
Edited by IAJustin 10/11/2011 12:53 PM
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| MartinTD - 10/11/2011 12:46 PM
(Not saying you havn't done anything as I'm sure you have, but what exactly?)
I believe he has by the way he talks. I never said he didn't. As a relatively new muskie angler, is it my responsibility to know him and his accomplishments?
More importantly, what can I do that I'm not?
How can a new chapter be started? Rhinelander/Wausau/Merrill/Antigo - any of these would be great.
Edited by MartinTD 10/11/2011 12:57 PM
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Lambeau;
I couldn't tell you why people choose to not get involved. I hear things about how many 1000's of people are on sites like this and Musky Hunter, and other sites that are constantly talking about issues but the number of people involved in grass-roots campaigns or in MI has been stagnant for the last decade. I don't think I made the claim people were apathetic I've just stated the facts that with the tens of thousands more people that are fishing in MN now we have the same amount of water and virtually the same amount of people "giving" back.
I think it would be a much easier pill to swallow in regards to crowded lakes if it actually seemed like people were getting involved. When the lakes become more and more crowded and we have harder and harder times fundraising and getting guys to become active volunteers it leaves a pretty sour taste in your mouth.
I also really don't see why it's such a bad thing for guys to say that it sucks fishing on these crowded waters. Isn't that the first step to getting people fired up to get new water? Making them realize that we could have it better? That's how we got these new lakes in the 1st place. Leech, Cass and the few other waters we had got pounded and people wanted fishing to be better both for numbers/quality of fish and the fishing experience.
It really floors me that so many of you have this attitude of "quit complaing and deal with it" rather than "yah, these lakes are getting to crowded, let's get together and see if we can get more waters".
For those of you that are asking the ridiculous questions about "how much is enough", just go look in the mirror and do a little self-examining. If you think you can do more, or want to do more than do it.
JS | |
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Martin;
I read your post after I typed my last one.
I'm not here to list a resume, or to put myself above anyone else.
As I stated, do what you can do, what you want to do.
Maybe it's joining a club, or sending an e-mail/letter when needed, attending a public meeting or just trying to be a more considerate angler when on the water (that goes a long way for our public image in regards to non-muskie guys as well).
JS | |
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| So the best way to get involved is join Muskies Inc.? Like I said, closest chapter for me is Green Bay or Medford. Both of which are probably more concerned with the local waters.
Quite frankly, bashing new anglers (like myself - 4yrs) while you are representing Muskies Inc. doesn't make me want to join any more.
Honestly though, what would it take to start a new chapter? I would like to be involved in something like that. PM or email if you'd like.
Sorry, the more I read I couldn't help but take it personal, even though I feel I've already done what I can.
Edited by MartinTD 10/11/2011 1:09 PM
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| last few posts have mentioned Restaurants,,limited amount of steaks,,and contributing/giving back
Id like to thank those who contribute/give back to all the slot machines which allow me to go to casino buffets and have all you can eat prime rib steaks for $12.99 | |
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I don't see how stating the fact that the majority (vast majority) of anglers don't get involved is "bashing".
I didn't call anybody any names, single anybody out or tell people they don't have a right to fish unless the meet some level of achievement.
I merely pointed out that with the tens of thousands of new anglers that fish for muskies in MN there has been a stagnant number of people working to keep improving our fisheries.
How PC does one have to be to make a point? We aren't children here.
JS
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| Done.
Edited by MartinTD 10/11/2011 1:25 PM
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| I think the points that are made by JS are all very valid. It seems that the people that are taking offense are taking his comments to mean something that they are not intended to mean.
It's a simple fact with anything, that the majority of people don't actively get involved in making a difference. And that's perfectly fine. If 10% do something and 90% don't, how many of that 90% are the ones that are out there being vocal about how bad things are? I think those are the people that should be called out. If you are willing to be vocal about complaining, why are you sitting on your hands and doing nothing? Some might not know what they can do. But many do know, and choose to do nothing. I would say that this is a small percentage of people. But there are certainly people like that out there. I know several personally. They are the people that will complain about wanting new waters, yet won't pick up the phone or send an email when the time comes to show support for new waters. Something that would take a minute or two out of their day.
I don't believe that JS is making a blanket statement about most people. But there is certainly a fraction that are vocal complainers, that don't deserve any sympathy when they are aware of things that they could do and don't do them.
I see it much like voting. We might not have the greatest choices out there for our elected officials. But don't complain about who gets elected if you didn't go to the polls and cast your own ballot. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'I couldn't tell you why people choose to not get involved.'
There's your sign.
Martin,
It's not super easy to get a MI club going. I'm not sure there would be enough participation in the area of Rhinelander and Antigo, as many belong to Eagle River's group. The folks in MN are not used to what we've seen here on and off for 35 years...and what some call pressure isn't even close to what Indiana anglers call 'busy'.
The last Muskie creel on Pelican before the current management program went into place and a 50" limit was adopted recorded something near 50 muskies over 40" killed in a single year from a 3600 acre lake. Pelican used to have the highest Muskie angling hours creel recorded in Northern WI. That was pressure...and the lake is still there, the muskie fishing better than it has been in quite a while for size structure, and there's hope Pelican will not need to be stocked any more. It hasn't been since 1998, I believe.
The new size limit was acquired by a couple hard working guys, and no organized club was involved. It's possible to get things done locally if the need arises, and Norm and Mike showed us how to make it so.
Interestingly, Pelican is not as crowded now.
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Location: Hudson, WI | Little story...
I very good friend of mine is a tournament bass angler. We'd give each other crap about me casting all day with no fish, and him catching a fish that the least skilled angler in the world could catch 50 of off their dock. One night, I take him musky fishing. He drills a 52on topwater. He was shaking so badly when I was showing him how to unhook it that he dropped the pliers three times, so I had to take over entirely. His wife later told me that he never slept that night and paced around the garage until 7 in the morning.
Next day, he calls me...from Thorne Bros. He buys a rod, reel, net, pliers, cutters and a bunch of baits. He's hooked for life. Fishes at least once a week now, largely the same spots and same waters that I do. Guy's a hell of a good stick, too.
Personally, I'm glad I was able to turn someone on to our great sport. But according to some of the attitudes displayed here, I should call him what he is, or what I've created...another d-bag person on my spot. He's not an MI member either, just a frickin worthless dude pillaging the resource someone else built for him.
Edited by Moltisanti 10/11/2011 2:00 PM
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Martin;
I'm pretty the words worthless and d-bag didn't come from any other post you've read here, so why turn it into that?
JS
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Location: minocqua, wi. | piece-a-crap probably spears and eats pike too eh moltisanti? ...
what a d-bag | |
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Location: Roscoe IL | To the point of the Author of this thread. In years past I have noticed a dramatic decrease of angelrs on the water in October & November. This is the best time to fish IMOP, I save most my vacation for this time of year because I know during the work week I will not see another boat or only a few at best. On Friday's going into the weekend it picks up, but generaly it's not to busy on the water. Maybe the increased cost of Suckers or the same outdoorsman are hunting this time of year, but it's not that bad. Granted this year I haven't been able to get out yet and maybe I'll get a big surprise, but the season is just getting started for me. I just love using Suckers and that noise of the reel screemig when a muskie grabs that sucker makes the hair on the back of my neck stand strait up! You just never know how big it is until you set the hook, my entire body shakes when all of this is going on and I love it!
Safe fishing all and best of luck..
Mike | |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Guest - 10/11/2011 2:22 PM
Martin;
I'm pretty the words worthless and d-bag didn't come from any other post you've read here, so why turn it into that?
JS
Martin didn't post that, John, I did. And you're right, no one said that. But the overall context has been there the whole time.
I get what you're saying. No one has the right to complain if they don't do anything about it. But let's be honest. People fish because they like to fish. As long as they abide by the laws, practice CPR and respect the resource and other fishermen, they should be all good in anyone's book. Saying someone isn't as worthy because they don't donate their time and money to an organization is ridiculous and condescending. And a turn off to non-musky anglers, who we need on our side.
As far as MN pressure goes...here's another story. I started fishing Miltona in 2004. I kid you not, I fished on two different occasions where there was not a single other boat fishing for muskies. On a 5800 acre lake. I was up there this opener. The guys I fished with started bch-ing immediately...7 boats in the landing already. We get to a spot and there are two guys chunking it. "Well...we can't fish this spot. This lake is just pressured beyond belief." What??? It would've taken us three hours to fish it! It's a huge area, on a 5800 acre lake!
Maybe us metro guys are immune to it, I don't know. But seriously. There are a lot more muskie fishermen now. I'd bet 70% of the Minnesota muskie guys were walleye and bass fishermen 10 years ago. Now their fishing for YOUR fish. Get used to it.
Edited by Moltisanti 10/11/2011 3:29 PM
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Location: Hudson, WI | jonnysled - 10/11/2011 2:25 PM
piece-a-crap probably spears and eats pike too eh moltisanti? ...
what a d-bag
No, he just keeps the ones he catches on tip-ups. It's a more humane way to kill them. | |
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| everybody chill!
Great ideas, some anyway, above.
I want to remind folks that I was an early ranter asking people to think about the state of muskie fishing 100 years from now. So far the only decent response I've received is a Guest calling me a "Sneaky PETA". Which is pretty funny.
Treats, it was you, not The Fat Man. | |
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| I sat down and figured it out. This season, between licenses, MI membership, and donations to our local club, we spent around $800 We caught a total of 5 fish, in 7 days of fishing. That comes out to $160/fish that theoretically should have gone directly to improving our fisheries. Is paying $160 for a fish that we returned to the water from which it came enough? That's about a dozen times what it costs to put that fish there to begin with.
Have I earned the right to fish in MN yet? | |
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Posts: 3926
| "I don't even have a dog, you can call home and ask my wife."
Sorry Steve, the correct lyric to Uneasy Rider is
"I'm a faithfull follower of Brother John Burch
and I belong to the Antioch Baptist Church
And I ain't even got a garage, you can call home and ask my wife!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=952h-AJ3Bcg&feature=related
The flip side of the 45 as I recall was "Funky Junky".
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I paraphrased... | |
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Location: 0 | Im not sure how it is on your bodies of water, but on mine going out on a week day is the best way to avoid the crowds. Its like the difference between day and night from the weekends. | |
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Posts: 199
Location: Nebraska | Another perspective. I wish I had your problems. I'd love to be muskie fishing this weekend, getting front ended and elbowed off of a spot.
Unfortunately I live in Nebraska, far from the nearest muskie water. I do enjoy a 10 day trip to Minaki each September. Already looking forward to next year. I wish I could do more.
So, for those who feel crowded, realize how good you actually have it.
Edited by Stein 10/11/2011 9:14 PM
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | If I can't remember it then it didn't happen Ranger
XXOO even though the mysterious "Evil Treat" must have been at the helm that day.
Seriously, connecting to the "other 90%" of muskie anglers is something that everyone who works towards the resource is the $10,000 question. What gets a lot of people like John and myself frustrated is when the same 20-40 people in the state of MN do all the work, meanwhile there are literally a couple hundred thousand people in MN that fish muskies and probably x2 that many that are on M1st that SEEM either ambivalent or good guy about things they can be helping with.
Lately we have been getting much better about getting the word out about the issues of the day and quite frankly my hope has been renewed to a degree with the number of people willing to send a 30 second email. Is it anywhere close to the kind of support that I personally feel we should be getting? No. Is it better then where we were 5 years ago and trending the right way? Absolutely!
At the end of the day, if you like what we have or want to make it better then any support you can give will be appreciated. There are tons of ways to give back, many of which can be found on this website. The tournament and club announcement sections is a great place to start. Banquets, tournaments, get togethers, youth events, etc are posted there regularly. Also you will often times see the call to send an email or phone call posted on the main page here. Take the 30 seconds to send the email. If the event sounds like fun, attend. If you have more time, fire, money that you'd like to contribute you can contact a local MI chapter or if nothing else drop me a line and I can get you pointed in the right direction. Things either get better or worse but rarely stay the same in this world. | |
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| Thanks for switching the koolaid for me today Treats lol
With all honesty the club aspect of Muskies inc is the thing that I appreciate the least and honestly membership means little or nothing too me in any group. Membership in anything gets you only what you expect, its involvement that will change your prospects and your expectations then possibly grow into membership.
If you are involved and love what you have or want to make it better going the road alone is an impossible fight, involvement will gain you allies and open doors.
You the Muskie anglers can have it all, you can open up the door to new lakes and better management of our fish.
Get active, I'm not saying devote your life to it but fight for the future of the sport and for these fish we love and hate. Any Muskies inc Chapter will welcome you efforts, but that's not whats important. Gill Hamm, Frank Schneider Jr., and Hugh Becker all knew what was important, the fish; the group made it known to the rest of the world that they mattered, those numbers can be felt in many ways forging change.
Get involved, its more important to have the opportunity to catch the fish than it is to actually catch one..Get involved and if you like the effort and the people then worry about joining. | |
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| The Dogs Of Consumerism say themselves are not the issue, lack of involvment is now their tissue.
They shout to the tranquility of the water, your numbers are not enough, when they continue to profit all the while they rebuff.
Muskies, Inc is the answer they say, donate your money and time and everything will be OK.
More lakes, more muskies, more opportunity for all, just what the Dogs of Consumerism want with more and more new shopping malls.
Forget the nonsense that anything new, whether it be water's tranquility or more seedlings being stocked, will relieve the demise of existing waters from those Dogs of Consumerism's flock.
A decade of time or more will be needed before becoming a desire, while during that time even more decide to be money guns for hire.
The Dogs Of Consumerism surplus will surpass, any Muskies, Inc belongings whether now, the future or even in times past.
One car does in fact lead a race and the Dogs Of Consumerism does in fact set the pace.
The true answer for everyone to see are the Dogs Of Consumerism taking a big step back and not continue an image of just me, me, me.
Their Bait and Switch game seems to still be their venue regardless of the reality a growing majority of us believes to continue.
The demise of our fisheries is advancing forward yearly; the quality of this sport is becoming a check out line from what it once was held to heart, so dearly.
The Dogs Of Consumerism's are the reflection in your mirror and it's still your sight resounding afterwards when crying in your beer.
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Posts: 1224
Location: Okoboji | Guest - 10/12/2011 6:42 AM
The Dogs Of Consumerism say themselves are not the issue, lack of involvment is now their tissue.
They shout to the tranquility of the water, your numbers are not enough, when they continue to profit all the while they rebuff.
Muskies, Inc is the answer they say, donate your money and time and everything will be OK.
More lakes, more muskies, more opportunity for all, just what the Dogs of Consumerism want with more and more new shopping malls.
Forget the nonsense that anything new, whether it be water's tranquility or more seedlings being stocked, will relieve the demise of existing waters from those Dogs of Consumerism's flock.
A decade of time or more will be needed before becoming a desire, while during that time even more decide to be money guns for hire.
The Dogs Of Consumerism surplus will surpass, any Muskies, Inc belongings whether now, the future or even in times past.
One car does in fact lead a race and the Dogs Of Consumerism does in fact set the pace.
The true answer for everyone to see are the Dogs Of Consumerism taking a big step back and not continue an image of just me, me, me.
Their Bait and Switch game seems to still be their venue regardless of the reality a growing majority of us believes to continue.
The demise of our fisheries is advancing forward yearly; the quality of this sport is becoming a check out line from what it once was held to heart, so dearly.
The Dogs Of Consumerism's are the reflection in your mirror and it's still your sight resounding afterwards when crying in your beer.
what planet are you from man?!?! can i take a hit off that fish call??? | |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Bartender, give me a double of whatever Guest is drinking... | |
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Posts: 3165
| Dogs of Consumerisim ???
are we taliking about muskies,the AKC,or the rising cost of Bulldawgs!!!! | |
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Posts: 1224
Location: Okoboji | High-Class Slim came floatin' in,
cutting in the weed line.
Just gettin' right on Saturday night,
ridin' with some friends of mine.
They invited me to throw topwaters
And then I took my first long look
at the muskies hitting on high.
In the back of Jimmy's ranger
stood a justincase welded into shape by Slim,
made out of plexiglass.
"How fine," they cried, "now with baits inside,
strapped in there safe and sound."
I thought, "My oh my, how the muskies would bite
if those things ever hit the water."
Slim was so pleased when I had eased
into his trap of consumerism.
He had slammed the door, but he said no more
and I thought I'd breathed my last breath.
We was out in the sticks down Highway 371 and the crowd was just about right.
The speed was too, so out I flew,
like a stick of rollin' dynamite.
When it hit the water you could hear the sound
and see the wakes a country mile.
End over end it began to spin
but the bait started runnin' wild.
But it was too late as I met my fate
and the bait started gettin' hot.
But through the sound and the wake I knew how the claim
of the Master of Baits was got.
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| So maybe I'm a guide. Do I promote my guide business, publish my big fish pictures, and talk up the waters where I fish? Or do I stare at an empty calendar and wish I could make the payments on my boat and my truck?
Smart or stupid?
Maybe I have a resort. Do I promote muskie fishing and the lakes in my area? Do I work to grow the sport so I can pay the mortgage on my resort? Or do I keep my mouth shut and stare at an empty resort?
Smart or stupid?
Maybe I am a lure maker. Do I hype those lures, give them to guides, tell them to talk them up, try to get them into stores, and make sure every fish caught on them is on every website? Or do I just sit back and hope my inventory sells itself?
Smart or Stupid?
Walk around an expo some day - it's apparent that muskie anglers will go to any lengths to catch a fish. Their money is going in somebody's pocket other than their own. You can sit back and complain about it, or you can figure out how to have the pocket be yours.
Smart or Stupid?
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Is it smart or stupid for all of the above people to do whatever they can to perpetuate the sport that they make a living off of??
All of the above, and many do, should do whatever they can to get the people they make a living off of realize that the fishery needs attention and needs to grow or it will not sustain itself.
What happens when the fishery goes downhill, how many lures will be sold, resorts will be full or guide trips be booked?
The future depends on us to keep the fishery viable and to keep those in the "business" in business.
Do we want a short term fishery and fishing business or a long term one?
JS | |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Lots of talk about doing something, darned little as to what that might be.
You want more muskie waters in MN. Apparently the majority/DNR? rest of the public doesn't. What can a guy from WI do to help? What can a MN guide or just plain fisherman do to help? Where would the dollars go if someone decided to help with their wallet?
Why is this situation different than managing any other fish in MN? Aren't many of the walleye lakes under special regs now because of past overharvest? Why can't the DNR be trusted to get the job done since other than introduction and the Metro, there's apparently not much need for stocking? Or is the NR so poor the fish are not doing well as a population and stocking is needed?
If the need and goals are clarified, perhaps more participation would be the natural result? | |
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| Guest - 10/12/2011 11:49 AM
Is it smart or stupid for all of the above people to do whatever they can to perpetuate the sport that they make a living off of??
All of the above, and many do, should do whatever they can to get the people they make a living off of realize that the fishery needs attention and needs to grow or it will not sustain itself.
What happens when the fishery goes downhill, how many lures will be sold, resorts will be full or guide trips be booked?
The future depends on us to keep the fishery viable and to keep those in the "business" in business.
Do we want a short term fishery and fishing business or a long term one?
JS
If the past is any indication of the future, when the fishing gets tougher, people will probably buy just as many lures, if not more, trying to find the magic lure that's going to make 50" muskies jump in the boat. And those who are unable to find success will likely turn to guides to help them "crack the code". Will people still fill the resorts? Considering that they have, and continue to do so, regardless of their success at actually catching quantities of big fish? I suspect the resorts will do just fine. And worst case, if the fishing in MN declines to the point where it's just not worth dragging the boat 6 hours away and blowing $1,000 for a weekend chasing fish? They will fish in their home states instead. As a result, the pressure will subside, the fisheries will recover, and you'll have nothing to worry about. People will continue to chase the "hot bite", wherever that is. And whatever shape the fisheries are in at any given point, there will always be a flood of new anglers, who don't know what it used to be like, who don't know any different, who will fish and continue to fish in MN, because the lake ecosystems are such that they will support better populations of fish than anywhere else across the muskies range, with the possible exception of Canada and a few lakes in WI.
As for your other point? As with most things, it's all about food on the table and money in the bank. If there becomes a point where the folks in muskie fishing aren't struggling at the end of the month, (you're not going to get rich running a guide business or a resort) they might start looking to the future with some vigor. But for now, there is low hanging fruit, and it's ripe and nobody is hungry.
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| Interesting and fun discussion. My observations as a 60 year old who has been fishing for muskies all his life in Minnesota and Wisconsin:
1. The desire for the "good old days" is a romantic notion and problem with all aspects of our lives - not just musky fishing
2. These are the best days right now. We have dedicated magazines, TV shows and can spend time year round on forums talking about musky fishing.
3. We have incredible options (whether we use all of them or not) for new poles, reels, fishing line, lures and technology to support our fishing.
4. The problem with the fact that only 10% give back is nothing new. That has been the case forever in all aspects of our lives.
Lets appreciate what we have now.
RG | |
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | This is probably the coolest discussion I've read in a long time on this forum. I think as Steve referenced earlier, perhaps if specifics were listed - more individuals would be inclined to assist in whatever way they can.
I know I get involved with the local DNR conservation meetings as a trapper and fisherman. I vote regularly on issues I'm passionate about as well as the obvious catch 'n release for the musky I love to hunt. I purchase licenses every year and attend a couple of different musky shows in the state, as well. Aside from that, I'll be the first to admit that I guess I'm ignorant as far as what more I can do to assist the sport. | |
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Lots of specifics offered already;
Attend public meetings. Contact govt. with letters and e-mails when needed.
Join Muskies Inc. There are tens of thousands of dollars going towards stocking and research projects in MN/WI and elsehere.
The latest lake in MN to come of age has been stocked with 100% MI dollars.
The increased size limits in MN are due to the MI and the MMA getting involved.
The most important gene study done in MN was done with MI and local volunteers.
1st WI MI chapter and others in WI are helping fund stockings with MN fish to further researching whether it's a good fit for WI or not.
Promote C&R and safe fish handling to help ensure numbers of fish are always there.
Pretty easy ways to help out.
JS | |
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An example of a business that looks after the resource as much as promotes it.;
On Leech lake I know of a few resorts that now have quality release tools and real muskie nets that they give to guests to use. They ask them if they are planning on fishing for muskies and then make sure they are prepared for it.
It's a small investment in helping ensure that fish that are caught will get caught another day.
In Canada they take it to a more extreme level. Many fly-in camps do not allow any fish to be killed. More and more are also requiring barbless hooks and no live bait.
I think the idea that people will just keep fishing and spending money on lures whether the fishery is in good shape or not is ridiculous.
Apparently others in the business are seeing that keeping the fishery in top condition is a good business plan as well.
Ask the resorts on Leech that barely made it through the late 90's and early 2000's when the walleye fishery tanked about that.
JS
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | I am not so convinced the fishing has gone downhill so much. As far as my boat is concerned, we caught more fish this year on Leech and Mille Lacs than we ever have. The numbers on other lakes has not gone down either. Time on the water was the main thing in short supply and that had nothing to do with the fishery.
I do agree that fishing pressure has increased overall, but adjusting to it and being successful is still possible. Its not like there are so many boats on every lake that one simply cannot do anything different. My observations are that fishing pressure may actually be decreasing on many lakes as more and more fisherman flock to the "hot" lakes. One key to avoiding the crowds is simply avoiding the "hot" lakes. I actually have begun to head more to the "slow" lakes. The fish are still there and still eat. The fact is, being one of a few boats on a "slow" lake may give one a much better chance than being one of many boats on a "hot" lake.
About involvement, I agree that more specifics would be very helpful for most. Many people are extremely busy and have a hard time with scheduling. Many of us are so booked with our kids athletics, school, church and family that just getting on the water for a few hours can be difficult. Combine that with the time required to research what is going on with the Muskie front and any involvement simply becomes a non-starter. Its not that people don't care or want to get involved, it is just difficult for them.
There are many ways one can get involved with the sport though. Just taking beginners fishing and showing them how to properly release fish is a good thing. Being open when people have questions at any retail outlet is also a form of involvement. It only takes a minute to politely explain the basics of proper release and Muskie tackle. A lot of people simply don't know and are very open to advice from experienced fishermen (or women).
That said, this discussion has motivated me to get more involved in MI.
Life is busy and then you die. Do what you can while you're here, eh?
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Posts: 619
| Hammskie - 10/7/2011 3:48 PM
Slow Rollin - 10/7/2011 3:34 PM
The pressure is unreal.. there are alot of really good fisherman out there now that are pretty skilled.. if a fish is going to bite they will catch it and not leave many crumbs behind...in MN i would say in most lakes the populations have gone down pretty significantly on alot of lakes do to pressure..every year its getting harder an harder to catch fish.
I suggest trying to suck less, as a temporary solution to this problem.
Huh, anytime - any place - lets do a heads up competition...put a few hundred bucks on the line and so who takes it This weekend? | |
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| I love fishing when nobody is around. I pray for Labor day to come so 80% of the yahoos put their boats away for the year. There is nothing, and I mean nothing better than pulling up to a boat launch on a Sunday in Wisconsin in the fall with the Packers about to play. The place is dead! That's when I get my soul back.
I'm sorry but I hate people. I admit it!
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Posts: 209
| sworrall - 10/11/2011 8:57 AM
If you fish for muskies, you are part of the 'problem'. You represent part of the crowd. Who the hell are you to decide who should or should not be welcome to fish? You bought your boat, and the rest of your gear, so seriously...shut up about consumerism being the problem...without it the fisheries would not exist as they do. On one hand you beg us to participate, and on the other curse our participation.
Truer words could not have been spoken.
Not to mention there's always the muskie fisherman that feels the need to take the best possible pictures and measure every fish so he can boast the size of what he caught. Then he wants to show off his skills and knowledge, so he says exactly what he did and how he did it and where and what time. It's also necessary to talk about how well his new equipment handled during the fight, so the brand and model of rod, reel, line, and lure must be included in the story.
By this point, he's surely gotten the listener's attention, and said listener has a good idea of how to catch one himself. Oh? There's a sporting goods store down the road and Lake X is only a twenty minute drive away? Well this listener better not get any funny ideas, that's HIS spot.... | |
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Posts: 797
Location: North Central IL USA | Lib - 10/13/2011 4:26 PM
I'm sorry but I hate people. I admit it!
Yikes! Are you a serial killer?? | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yeah, he hates Cheerios, too. | |
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Posts: 1308
Location: WI | Lib - 10/13/2011 4:26 PM
I love fishing when nobody is around. I pray for Labor day to come so 80% of the yahoos put their boats away for the year. There is nothing, and I mean nothing better than pulling up to a boat launch on a Sunday in Wisconsin in the fall with the Packers about to play. The place is dead! That's when I get my soul back.
I'm sorry but I hate people. I admit it!
I'm like that also. I like being alone. Pretty easy in most places to find that even in the summer, just wake up earlier or hit small no name lakes.
Edited by JKahler 10/13/2011 11:23 PM
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| Lib - 10/13/2011 4:26 PM
I love fishing when nobody is around. I pray for Labor day to come so 80% of the yahoos put their boats away for the year. There is nothing, and I mean nothing better than pulling up to a boat launch on a Sunday in Wisconsin in the fall with the Packers about to play. The place is dead! That's when I get my soul back.
I'm sorry but I hate people. I admit it!
Most of us do, AJ. We may not realize it, but our favorite places are out on the boat on a quiet lake, out in the woods in a tree stand, places where we are the only person there. And we like to chase a fish with the lowest population desnity, that we might not even catch that day, and might not even SEE. Not exactly a social crowd by nature. At least not until we're off the water.
It's like I tell my girlfriend when she says "you're just not a people person": I like people! I just like them better when they are somewhere else and I don't have to deal with them! | |
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| The Dogs of Consumerism now have their overcrowding and fishery demise feedback's; the voice of nature's tranquility will never become silent to their continued setbacks.
Glensheen's full moon lake sheen shines so bright, we of nature's northern lights will always continue this fight.
For those Dogs of Consumerism who fully know the consequences of their over selling, judgment day is here and is ever so compelling.
Those of nature's tranquility do really wonder, how the Dogs of Consumerism sleep well at night and live with their blunders.
The question isn't if anymore, but when and how severe, the continued fishery decline to total destruction is ever so near.
What took nearly two decades to complete, the Dogs Of Consumerism, in less than a fourth, will be responsible for this defeat.
New names, new faces, the Dogs Of Consumerism birth to the Expo seminar floor, new faces, new interests - new victims sit with galore.
Because now nature’s tranquility walks past with just a passing glance, having been there, done that, with no more second chance.
To wit my words of reality's truth have been conveyed, nature's mirror of tranquility’s reflection will never by swayed.
Whether the Dogs Of Consumerism judged us generally or individually "Dead" wrong, the army of nature's tranquility is becoming more and more strong.
As it's not a question of being wrong or right, it's how those of us within nature's tranquility feel each and every night.
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| Travis, is that you?
The sad thing is this guy actually took the time to write all that hokus pokus.
Good effort but, poet, you are not.
Edited by Anonymous 10/14/2011 1:34 PM
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Thanks, Guest. That was very insightful. Which brings me to my next point. Don't smoke crack. | |
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Posts: 444
| Never do a drug named after part of your ass... | |
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Location: Smith Creek | I'm enjoying them, d- er guest. Keepses themses comingses. | |
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Posts: 3165
| I gotta go have some Chow Mein!!!!!
guests posts and anecdotes put me in the mood for fortune cookies | |
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Posts: 720
| thescottith,
Words to live by. LMAO!! | |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Guest,
Seriously, move to Alaska, out in the frozen north. All the tranquility you want, and nothing consumed because you will either freeze or starve to death while you pontificate about doing what needs to be done.
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | I find this entire thread rather strange. It seems to be based an assumption that:
1. Muskie fishing is getting worse and not better.
2. Not enough people are involved in advancing Muskie fishing and fisheries.
3. There is to much commercialism involved with Muskie fishing.
4. Someone is to blame.
My observations are:
1. While there are variances, Muskie fishing has actually been improving on many waters all over North America. Furthermore, Muskie fishing remains very good on many of the "original" Muskie waters such as Leech, Cass, and the Chip.
2. While there is a great deal of room for improvement, there are a lot of people involved and working hard for the Muskie fishery.
3. Commercialism, (or economic activity), is a natural result of a popular activity. That happens with anything that gets more popular and Muskie fishing is no different.
4. There is no one to blame. The DNRs in many states have done a good to great job. No one makes you buy anything or stay at a resort. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with marketting tackle or a resort to eager customers.
Remember back when 7ft rods were considered long and there weren't a lot of Muskie lure choices? Remember when catching a 40 inch Muskie was cause for celebration? Remember when the line choices were Dacron or Mono? I do.
I think maybe we all have it to good. How many of us live within an hour of good Muskie fishing? Seems that some may just be a little spoiled? Hmmmm?
Just my opinion. | |
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Posts: 619
| Herb_b - 10/14/2011 3:10 PM
I find this entire thread rather strange. It seems to be based an assumption that:
1. Muskie fishing is getting worse and not better.
2. Not enough people are involved in advancing Muskie fishing and fisheries.
3. There is to much commercialism involved with Muskie fishing.
4. Someone is to blame.
My observations are:
1. While there are variances, Muskie fishing has actually been improving on many waters all over North America. Furthermore, Muskie fishing remains very good on many of the "original" Muskie waters such as Leech, Cass, and the Chip.
2. While there is a great deal of room for improvement, there are a lot of people involved and working hard for the Muskie fishery.
3. Commercialism, (or economic activity), is a natural result of a popular activity. That happens with anything that gets more popular and Muskie fishing is no different.
4. There is no one to blame. The DNRs in many states have done a good to great job. No one makes you buy anything or stay at a resort. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with marketting tackle or a resort to eager customers.
Remember back when 7ft rods were considered long and there weren't a lot of Muskie lure choices? Remember when catching a 40 inch Muskie was cause for celebration? Remember when the line choices were Dacron or Mono? I do.
I think maybe we all have it to good. How many of us live within an hour of good Muskie fishing? Seems that some may just be a little spoiled? Hmmmm?
Just my opinion.
Hi Herb, i know its your opinion, but i think your out of touch with alot of lakes to say the fishing is improving? | |
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| I've been reading these posts and have fished before the mn stocked lakes really started taking off, during their peak, and probably what now is-post peak. Fishing pressure has definately changed things in MN on "stocked" waters. It may actually be getting better on natural waters as everyone is pounding stocked lakes. A person will have to get use to it or take up a different hobby. What would make it better in MN again is more lakes, less fishermen, or a Wisconsin fishery that would rival MN. (Wisconsin in my opinion has more scenic waters than MN as a whole) Thus I applaud the comments and efforts of those calling for more participation in improving the fishery via regs and more stocked waters. (thank you) | |
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| Step 1: Build a tremendous fishery
Step 2: Promote it from every angle, in every venue, with pictures and stories to boot
Step 3: Explain to the great unwashed public how to exploit it, in great detail, including how, when, where, and with what.
Step 4: Make sure every website, every page of every magazine, every guide and every angler is aware if how great it is
Step 5: Throw in a couple TV shows about it just for good measure
Step 6: Also make sure to instill the notion, in anglers old and new, that one has not fished until they have caught multpile 50" fish
Step 7: Remind those same folks about how great the fishing in MN is, just in case they missed it the first 50 times
And then? Complain about how many people are exploiting the resource I suppose.
Kind of like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer and then complaining because you have a headache, isn't it? | |
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| Flambeauski - 10/14/2011 2:09 PM
I'm enjoying them, d- er guest. Keepses themses comingses.
Well played Flambeauski! | |
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Couple things;
The people "complaing" aren't the ones who have promoted, or exploited the fishery, however you want to put it.
I think the jist of a lot of the concern is the promotion of the resource is outselling the capability of the resource.
I think it's rather funny that the reactions to the poems by guest are to call him crazy, say he's on drugs etc.
If people really think that the fishery can sustain the pressure it's getting without people taking extra measures to help it, or to embrace better ideas about better C&R or other such things that commonly get ridiculed by the masses, than let's hear those points instead of the name calling.
If you have a legitimate case for brushing off the ideas of the poems then speak your mind instead of poking fun of someone you have never met.
Address the message instead of trying to rip apart the messenger.
JS
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | I know that some lakes, like Mille Lacs and Vermillion, are no longer at their peak. But I am not thinking about just those lakes or just the past five or ten years. I am thinking about the entire midwest and the size and quality of the Muskie fisheries in the last 20 years. Yeah, it was probably easier to catch a big Muskie on some lakes five years ago. But it is a whole lot easier now than it was 15 years ago - not?
What I see are a lot of fisheries maturing and the fish simply becoming more difficult to catch as a result. But the fish are still there and can be caught.
Just my opinion. | |
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| Guest - 10/14/2011 4:37 PM
Couple things;
The people "complaing" aren't the ones who have promoted, or exploited the fishery, however you want to put it.
I think the jist of a lot of the concern is the promotion of the resource is outselling the capability of the resource.
I think it's rather funny that the reactions to the poems by guest are to call him crazy, say he's on drugs etc.
If people really think that the fishery can sustain the pressure it's getting without people taking extra measures to help it, or to embrace better ideas about better C&R or other such things that commonly get ridiculed by the masses, than let's hear those points instead of the name calling.
If you have a legitimate case for brushing off the ideas of the poems then speak your mind instead of poking fun of someone you have never met.
Address the message instead of trying to rip apart the messenger.
JS
John... The decline in the MN fisheries was predicted and talked about years ago. We had many discussions about it here, and on the other sites, and some very good input from biologists. What I gained from those discussions is that the "peak" was inevitable - first introductions of muskies will have no competition for forage, and the entire lake to themselves. As you add year classes, and those classes start coming up, there are still relatively few fish in the system. Looking down the road to when those first year classes reach maturity, and the year classes immediately behind them? That is the best fishing you will EVER have in that system.
Is the pressure on those lakes contributing to the decline? Certainly. But we can implement the best management strategies, and the best C&R ethic, and you're only trying to fix symptoms of the real problem. The quality of that fishery is still going to decline, even if you remove angling from the equation all together. You can stock more fish, but ultimately it all comes down to whatever biomass that a lake can support, and because of that, (based on all the research I've read anyway) those inital year classes will outperform those which came afterwards. you can have a lot of small fish, or you can have a few big fish, but the only time you're going to have a lot of big fish is when those first few year classes reach their maximum size.
What everyone is really complaining about is that there are just too many people fishing those lakes. And what, exactly can you do about that? People are going to fish wherever the fishing is best. You can stock other waters across other states, which is being done and has been done for some time. You can implement better management strageties on other lakes in other states, which has been done and is being done. But the fact that MN has better lake ecosystems to support large muskies than you will find in other surrounding states? You're going to have better fisheries, and people are going to flock to them. I'm sure if you set up a program where people could pay an extra $10 for a license and buy a muskie to be stocked, for example, that most people would happily throw in the extra $10.
But the problem, as I understand it is not tht more muskies need to be stocked, or that more money needs to be raised. More LAKES would certainly help, but there again, people are going to fish where the best fishing is, and there little anybody can do to change that. When the lake associations are against muskies in their lakes, because they don't want the muskie ANGLERS on their lakes? What are you going to do exactly? Charge more for an out of state license, hoping that it forces people to stay in their own state? Look at WI - they charge $70 fo an out of state license. There are more people from IL fishing in Northern WI than there are from WI. That's because the fishing is better. And it's always going to BE better, because the lake ecosystems are better suited for muskies.
I hear the same things from guys all over Canada. Every year, more and more and more people. Muskie fishing is growing, and the crowds are coming. I have yet to hear an actual solution about what can actually be done to stop it. Lots of complaining, but no real solutions. The best hope is getting more lakes stocked. But what happens in the years in between stocking those new lakes, and when they actually start to produce quality fish? | |
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Location: WI | You can hope for higher gas prices, that will keep the fishing pressure down. | |
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| If someone is willing to spend $30k on a boat, $200 for a reel, $150 for a rod, and $20 each for lures, do you really think a few bucks extra for gas is going to stop them? License fees, launch fees, muskie stamps, all of those are good for putting money in someone else's pocket, but it's certainly not going to keep anyone away. About the only thing you can do to keep people off your lakes is keep your mouth shut about them. It's a little late for that I'm afraid.
I know what the answer is. Nobody is going to like it. Best thing anybody can do for the muskie populations in MN is stop fishing there. I don't hear anybody suggesting that as an option, though I bet many would like to. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The guest JS quote and post above pretty much sums it up. | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | how bout making everyone buy a stamp ... that'll fix it | |
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Location: Hugo, MN | I must not have been paying attention. I hadn't noticed the "decline" of the muskie fisheries that seem so obvious to some of you guys. | |
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Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Havent noticed the big decline in MN...more hit the net for me this year in MN than any of my previous years there. Guest poet--you have some rhymes going on there but try to work on the rhythm a bit. Are you taking requests? Could we get something in, say, a limerick? | |
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| sworrall - 10/14/2011 3:06 PM
Guest,
Seriously, move to Alaska, out in the frozen north. All the tranquility you want, and nothing consumed because you will either freeze or starve to death while you pontificate about doing what needs to be done.
If he thinks musky waters are crowded he should see what combat fishing is really like. Quality accessible fisheries draw crowds everywhere. | |
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It isn't the fact that so many people want to fish muskies that is a concern, crowded lakes are unavoidable when you have a good fishery. Everybody has the privalege to fish muskies and that is a good thing. We are blessed with some great waters.
The concern is the effect that this pressure is going to have, and what is or isn't being done to make sure the fishery can sustain it's excellance.
Are muskie so much different than some of the big game animals that have tight regs on how many people can hunt them, and how many they let be killed in a year to preserve the resource?
Right now we have enough anglers catching fish that delayed mortality will have an impact, that and the fact that people do still kill them. The answer is limit pressure or have individuals take extra steps to help ensure the resource is impacted as little as possible. Do any of us want to see limited fishing, or tighter regs? It appears not.
It also appears that many anglers don't see any problems and aren't willing to admit that the fishery is getting more pressure than it will be able to sustain and be at the quality it is at now year after year.
We aren't doing enough, and I guess that is being lost on some.
JS | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Are muskie so much different than some of the big game animals that have tight regs on how many people can hunt them, and how many they let be killed in a year to preserve the resource? '
Yes. Obviously. Muskies are not deer, deer are not muskies. The DNR would act if they feel the balance of the fishery is in need of more regulation. They have done so with walleyes on several lakes that are also prime muskie fisheries, so the question should be if Muskies are different than walleyes to manage, and the answer would still be...yes.
Are the biologists over there ready and willing tighten the regulations to 'preserve' the fishery as it is today? Do they feel the fishery is at risk? If you do and they don't, why the difference of opinion? If they do and you do, what's the hold up with increasing size limits or offering other restrictions?
Are you seriously championing limiting access? How would THAT work?
Is a reasonable step, at least one that might get some consideration, a statewide 50" limit? Do they still have effective control over the special interests there, or is your legislature the 'problem'? Are the activists in the muskie world considered a special interest group too? How would those issues be addressed effectively?
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Guess the explanation came later.
Biologists do see problems, but that doesn't mean they are able or going to make changes.
I'm obviously one that champions changes within the ranks of the fishermen themselves.
That can be a steep hill to climb though.
Size limits are great, but more effective in places where pressure is less of a factor as obvioulsy fish die after release as well.
Muskies are not deer. Deer are the rats of the world. Breeding very successfully and in many place need to be thinned out for health of the herd and our cars.
My big game analogy was more pertaining to other low density predators or animals that aren't the "walleyes" of the woods, meaning numbers are low and over hunting can cause harm to numbers without strick regulation.
JS
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What do the biologists tell you they see as issues that threaten the muskie population in MN?
What would be the answer if they had free hand to make it so and do they feel as you do...or not? Why are they not 'willing or able' to make changes?
'Deer are the rats of the world.' I bet the Whitetail conservationists would love that one. | |
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The issues are recriutment of new fish won't keep up to death of fish.
You have delayed mortality, which is something that is obviously enhanced by more people fishing.
You have fish intentionally killed and also cannibalism of young muskies by the higher populations of large fish that the new stocked lakes have.
Stocking rates are not going to change unless it's funded by private sources.
Very simply the numbers of muskies in lakes is not going to increase but decrease.
One notable exception is Leech. That lake is now as good as it's ever been both for numbers and size according to DNR and local guides, fishermen. The pressure on Leech has gone down drastically over the last decade with the popularity of new lakes like Mille Lacs, Vermillion and a host of other MN waters.
It's a perfect example of how pressure affects a population even with C&R being a strong ethic.
We just raised our limit to 48". I suppose going higher would be better, but the problem is a matter of math. Numbers will go down with the current situation.
Not realizing that and making efforts to get more waters and take better care of what we have will have a detrimental effect.
JS | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | So stocking more is the cure and money needs to be raised to accomplish that? That's the answer? | |
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No, I don't think stocking more in existing lakes is the answer.
The DNR has numbers of how many fish can be stocked in a lake based on size of waters. Overstocking could be a detriment to other fish species and would probably be opposed by those who already view muskies as a threat to fish populations.
Which is also a hurdle to getting new lakes.
New waters and better handling are the answer in my mind.
New waters will take more money, which may need private assistance to accomplish.
So money is a hurdle in that area.
Fighing for new lakes and an attitude towards fish first is the road that will keep us on the right path IMHO.
Those are both areas that every angler/business can help in.
JS | |
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| So, John...
Here are the issues as you state them:
1. Delayed mortality due to the vast amount of pressure.
We've done a fine job getting people to spend their money (dogs of consumerism?) on big nets, release tools, and getting them to release those fish as quickly as possible. We've all but eliminated vertical holds, excessive time out of the water, single hook sucker rigs, and fighting fish with gear that's not up to the task. One cannot exist in muskie circles without being bombarded with every C&R practice known to man. We're even telling people to stop fishing when the water gets too warm. What else can we DO here? Water release only? I can't see telling people not to hold up their fish for a picture. It's a big part of the deal for most. Short of just not fishing for them, what's left? Delayed mortality is a result of fishing. Even the best are going to kill some, despite their best efforts.
2. Those who kill them intentionally: MN doesn't own that crowd. That happens across their range. Unfortunately, the crappie/walleye/bass/etc anglers of the world just don't want muskies in their waters. We can try to educate them, and explain that muskies aren't really eating all their walleyes. The problem I see there is that they aren't going to listen to the muskie crowd. We want muskies, they do not. Conflict of interest. Nothing we say, no matter how well we say it or how well informed we are, is going to override the mentality of "muskies are eating my (insert other game fish here)" And since many of us come across as arrogant jerks, it just compounds the problem.
3. Predation of small muskies by their own species. I am not sure how much of a problem this is. If true, that would seem to be a symptom of having too many muskies, and not enough forage. If they're eating their own in great numbers, they must be hungry. And dare I say that if they are eating their own, maybe the bass/walleye/panfish guys are more right than we want to believe?? If cannibalism is a problem, maybe selective harvest is the answer. Maybe the fisheries MN has created are unsustainable no matter what we do, because we've introduced too many large predators, and they are slowly but surely eating themselves out of house and home.
So... You've said that more fish will not solve the problem. You've said that higher size limits will not solve the problem. We can't stop muskies from eating each other, and we can't stop the vast majority of anglers who fish for other species from simply not wanting muskies in their lakes. They are the majority, and they aren't going away.
That leaves delayed mortality as the only factor we have any control over. You've said we all need to do more. More WHAT? I'm sure that some could do a better job releasing their fish, but that's not lack of knowledge, that's just lack of experience, which will come with more fish and more time fishing. So what is left, John? The things we can do either won't work, or we're already doing them.
Fixing the symptoms doesn't adress the problem. The problem, from what I can discern from your posts, is quite simply that too many people are fishing for muskies in MN. Our beloved poet has said the same thing. Much more eloquently though...
So, what now? Anyone want to volunteer to martyr themselves and never fish in MN again? | |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | $$$ for stocking new water - A Muskie Stamp $50.00 also U must pass a test on line for proper unhooking and release before U can buy stamp, also must have a Net, Pliers, Unhook tool or U will be fined. To Harvest a Muskie a $75.00 stamp, Also if a new lake is stock with Muskies one other fish like Walleye, Panfish is stock to.
Deayed Mortality - Muskies under 45" must be kept in water for release and measure and only a pic in the water, Muskies over 45" 30 sec Rule for out of water and NO Bump Boards, Pic only.
My 2 cents
Edited by PIKEMASTER 10/15/2011 8:07 AM
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Location: Ohio | PIKEMASTER - 10/15/2011 9:06 AM $$$ for stocking new water - A Muskie Stamp $50.00 also U must pass a test on line for proper unhooking and release before U can buy stamp, also must have a Net, Pliers, Unhook tool or U will be fined. To Harvest a Muskie a $75.00 stamp, Also if a new lake is stock with Muskies one other fish like Walleye, Panfish is stock to. Deayed Mortality - Muskies under 45" must be kept in water for release and measure and only a pic in the water, Muskies over 45" 30 sec Rule for out of water and NO Bump Boards, Pic only. My 2 cents And now you just chased away 60% of muskie fisherman and new fisherman so there goes any extra money source for stocking new water Who is going to enforce all the above? you would have to hire 100's of new game wardens and that would eat the majority of your money up that would be needed to stock new lakes What about the other species fisherman that catches a muskie, doesnt have these tools, gets a fine and then declares war on every muskie he catches?
Our biggest problem in my area (Ohio) is guys that fish for other species catching a muskie, slitting its belly and throwing it back in the water or hanging the muskie from a tree I do think that trying to let fisherman know how to do a proper release is crucial in saving a lot of muskie though, I just hate having to pay a king's ransom on top of all the money I already have in the sport
Edited by Magic8Ball 10/15/2011 8:25 AM
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Magic8Ball - 10/15/2011 8:18 AM
PIKEMASTER - 10/15/2011 9:06 AM $$$ for stocking new water - A Muskie Stamp $50.00 also U must pass a test on line for proper unhooking and release before U can buy stamp, also must have a Net, Pliers, Unhook tool or U will be fined. To Harvest a Muskie a $75.00 stamp, Also if a new lake is stock with Muskies one other fish like Walleye, Panfish is stock to. Deayed Mortality - Muskies under 45" must be kept in water for release and measure and only a pic in the water, Muskies over 45" 30 sec Rule for out of water and NO Bump Boards, Pic only. My 2 cents And now you just chased away 60% of muskie fisherman and new fisherman so there goes any extra money source for stocking new water Who is going to enforce all the above? you would have to hire 100's of new game wardens and that would eat the majority of your money up that would be needed to stock new lakes What about the other species fisherman that catches a muskie, doesnt have these tools, gets a fine and then declares war on every muskie he catches?
Our biggest problem in my area (Ohio) is guys that fish for other species catching a muskie, slitting its belly and throwing it back in the water or hanging the muskie from a tree I do think that trying to let fisherman know how to do a proper release is crucial in saving a lot of muskie though, I just hate having to pay a king's ransom on top of all the money I already have in the sport
Y would it chase away 60% ???? Hell one muskie bait is over $30.00 plus and U need at least 100's of them to fish for Muskies and that has not stop anyone new or present from fishing for Muskies.
U can't stop anyone from wanting to fish for Muskie that would be un- American but if U want to fish for them U must follow the rules and pay to help restock them.
I don't think a Muskie stamp will keep a True Muskie guy, it would kept a person that has never fished for them before that has no Idea what's he doing from fishing for them untill he commits to the rules of proper Muskies fishing.
Edited by PIKEMASTER 10/15/2011 8:54 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Let's say the density is one adult fish per acre after introduction in a 'new' lake. Let's say recruitment is enough to only sustain half that number.
Fishing will be tougher, that's for sure, but that won't hurt the upper confidence limit for the lake, which isn't realistically established with the introduction population for a number of reasons.
Delayed mortality is a low percentage of year class loss. Up to 30% of a year class of fish can be lost every year with NO angling at all.
Harvest can be a big issue, but needs to be quantified to be identified as a major reason for any actual decline that's real. Year classes of large fish will disappear eventually with no harvest.
If the population begins to drop below acceptable levels due to poor recruitment, and the desire is to maintain a number of adult fish based on what the water is managed for, stocking is the only reasonable answer. If harvest is the problem and stocking is not an option, then harvest needs to be limited. Only way to do that successfully is a size limit that makes harvest unlikely for the majority of the mature fish, protecting them for most of their lives.
Big muskies can and do eat little muskies, but I bet a stomach content study won't show enough to equal what 1/3 the largemouth bass predation on yoy muskie issues are.
The yoy will grow up. Huge chunks of the population from each year class will die from a multitude of causes. Each year class will begin the 'evolutionary process' of adaptation to the environment competing with all the other fish in that water for space and food.
Extremely simplified, but why 'new reservoir' syndrome is evident on some of the waters where the introduced population matured with little pressure and no recruitment issues. Unless fishing is banned entirely, it's likely the water will never see what the peak was again. There's no realistic and reasonably applicable cure for that far as I know.
Pewaukee Lake is near 100% put and take. Upper confidence is about 49" because of water quality and forage base. Pretty good numbers of fish are reaching that and a bit more now because of CPR. The muskie fishing is pretty good for big fish there despite HUGE pressure. It's a Metro Milwaukee area lake in an area with limited local opportunities for muskie anglers. I'd say management of this water is pretty darned good due to our DNR, the Milwaukee Chapter MI, and some other influences. Harvest is down, opportunity for big fish is up. And that lake is 'put and take'. Look to the Yahara Chain for another example that the sky is NOT necessarily going to fall.
Limiting the number of anglers is not a viable answer and everyone knows why. Expanding opportunity is for the long term, so that's a front line issue. Limiting harvest can be done by setting size limits at the upper confidence limit area. NW Ontario did that with HUGE success. Even us morons in Wisconsin are fighting for and winning 50" limits on our trophy waters. It's not easy, but by golly, we are getting it done even with our ridiculous method of deciding what our biologists are allowed to do. Cuts both ways, the CC does.
SO tell me I am wrong...MN's muskie waters have come of age, are now getting the fishing pressure we lived with here in WI for decades, and are moving through the original introduction year classes to reliance on NR and whatever stocking can be afforded and accomplished. Now MN will see what the stocked waters can do. They already know what the monster home waters like Leech and Cass will do, and that isn't bad, having that and other waters that are 10,000 years old as back-up.
Welcome to the reality of managed muskie waters and all the challenges attached. A group of you MN boys beat us WI guys up pretty good over the last decade poking all sorts of fun and abuse at our management, educational, budget, and all the other issues we have dealt with that are now becoming yours. Even called it our 'mentality' to harvest or overfish muskies. Seems that's sort of contagious, I guess.
Welcome to reality. | |
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| sworrall - 10/15/2011 10:19 AM
[...]
Welcome to reality.
There it is, in three words, what I've been trying to say for days...
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| PIKEMASTER - 10/15/2011 8:52 AM
I don't think a Muskie stamp will keep a True Muskie guy, it would kept a person that has never fished for them before that has no Idea what's he doing from fishing for them untill he commits to the rules of proper Muskies fishing.
No offense, but I don't believe this sort of elitist attitude is good for the future of the sport. We face enough obstacles, we don't need to go out of our way to pee off people that may well become strong allies in the future.
Not to mention I doubt the DNR would want to deal with this level of drama every time they are deciding what to stock. | |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Guest - 10/15/2011 1:15 PM
PIKEMASTER - 10/15/2011 8:52 AM
I don't think a Muskie stamp will keep a True Muskie guy, it would kept a person that has never fished for them before that has no Idea what's he doing from fishing for them untill he commits to the rules of proper Muskies fishing.
No offense, but I don't believe this sort of elitist attitude is good for the future of the sport. We face enough obstacles, we don't need to go out of our way to pee off people that may well become strong allies in the future.
Not to mention I doubt the DNR would want to deal with this level of drama every time they are deciding what to stock.
Elitist Attitude ????? Funny don't U have to take a hunting Safty Course to get a hunting licence ??? so Y not a Musky Proper Muskie Handling Course ??????
Edited by PIKEMASTER 10/15/2011 1:31 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The hunters safety course is to protect the hunter and others in the field from getting shot. No danger there for muskie anglers, and no reason any government agency would require a course to protect a fish no matter how we personally value muskies.. | |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | I guess I do have a Elitist Attitute about Muskies LOL LOL | |
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| PIKEMASTER - 10/15/2011 1:29 PM
Guest - 10/15/2011 1:15 PM
PIKEMASTER - 10/15/2011 8:52 AM
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Elitist Attitude ????? Funny don't U have to take a hunting Safty Course to get a hunting licence ??? so Y not a Musky Proper Muskie Handling Course ??????
I believe the main difference is that you don't muskie fish with a gun, that if mishandled can kill you and/or your fellow hunters. Hunter safety courses are about keeping the hunters safe, NOT their quarry. | |
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Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | jonnysled - 10/14/2011 7:35 PM
how bout making everyone buy a stamp ... that'll fix it
hmm...I remember a recent write up on another site saying WI needs a musky stamp specifically citing Indiana and Minnesota as examples of what WI needs to imitate
....I see a thread complaining about MN fishing, and also another in the reports section complaining about Indiana...
I think all 3 states need the stamp
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | sworrall - 10/15/2011 1:36 PM
The hunters safety course is to protect the hunter and others in the field from getting shot. No danger there for muskie anglers, and no reason any government agency would require a course to protect a fish no matter how we personally value muskies..
Ok then a newbie buys his rod and reel for Muskies and his lures, the guy at the store said Bulldawgs are the bait U need so he goes out and nails a 40"plus Muskie on a dawg and the Muskie inhales the bait, as they do and this guy has a small 4" pliers, so he tries to get his $30.00 Dawg out of the Muskies mouth and sticks his hand in the fish mouth and the Muskie bites down ?????? I say 30 stitches, plus the muskies been on the floor of boat for 5 mins ????? Laugh or call me elitist but this happens alot.
Edited by PIKEMASTER 10/15/2011 2:48 PM
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Guest;
My answer to what can be done is a personal choice.
I fish with barbless hooks most of the time. I rarely measure or photo a fish. I prefer to unhook in the net and let them swim.
Those are things most anglers don't want to do.
In your view the majority of anglers are doing things the right way. You think they have the big nets, tools and don't fish when it's hot. I think that is a presumption that isn't correct. How many muskie nets have Frabill and Beckmen ever sold? It's estimateed that something like 100,000 anglers fish for muskie in MN. I doubt that the majority of them have the tools. I watch people on my home lakes take very long photo sessions, multiple poses. Put the fish back in the net, take it out again for more pics after they see the digitals that they don't like. Many of us may have a fish first ethic but IMHO more anglers don't than do.
We can't stock more fish for political and financial reasons. Getting new lakes is met with a lot of opposition and only a handful of muskie anglers care to take the time to go to a public meeting or send a letter or e-mail. Where is the money going to come from? We've been trying to raise money and get more people involved for the last decade. The response is always the same. People can't afford it or they jump on the MI is a bunch of elitists bandwagon.
The idea that we're already doing all we can do is something I don't even have a response for. That is a perception that I don't agree with.
This horse is dead, buried and needs no more beating.
JS
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Actually, no it isn't. If the fishery needs help, folks here need to know that. If there's anything they can do, I bet the majority will do what they can. Hard to know what to do if there's no facts laid out there to act on.
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| Guest - 10/15/2011 3:18 PM
In your view the majority of anglers are doing things the right way. You think they have the big nets, tools and don't fish when it's hot. I think that is a presumption that isn't correct.
JS
No, I think most people are going to get the correct equipment after a trip to the hospital.
Not that it matters, but I live on a lower density musky lake. When I observe people fishing, those that I know are targeting musky do have the correct equipment - or at least a large net - 99% of the time. How it is on more popular waters that have a "hot bite" I can't say. I usually avoid the lakes I hear alot about. | |
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| Guest - 10/15/2011 3:18 PM
In your view the majority of anglers are doing things the right way. You think they have the big nets, tools and don't fish when it's hot. I think that is a presumption that isn't correct.
JS
No, I think most people are going to get the correct equipment after a trip to the hospital.
Not that it matters, but I live on a lower density musky lake. When I observe people fishing, those that I know are targeting musky do have the correct equipment - or at least a large net - 99% of the time. How it is on more popular waters that have a "hot bite" I can't say. I usually avoid the lakes I hear alot about.
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| This is an excerpt from a DNR study:
Although we were unable to produce a valid catch curve regression, total mortality of adult muskellunge in (Lake X) is likely relatively low. We say this primarily because our estimate of the annual exploitation rate for muskellunge was zero. No tagged fish were reported as harvested and the estimated harvest from the angler survey was zero. Also, the majority of anglers who seriously target and regularly catch muskellunge are known to practice catch and release. Additionally, a large proportion (40%) of fish we collected were relatively old (= age 10), and one fish was aged as 15. Casselman (1999) reported modal ages of 8 and 11 for males and females, respectively from muskellunge taken in the Cleithrum Project. The Cleithrum Project analyzed age data taken largely from angler-caught “trophy” muskellunge. Casselman (1996) also estimated 20% and 16% total annual mortality of male and female muskellunge, respectively.
Sounds like we're doing a good job to me... | |
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Posts: 8865
| JS
I think you are largely preaching to the choir in this venue. I doubt that anyone reading here holds muskies in any less regard than you or the rest of us. The serious muskie anglers are not the problem in my opinion, aside from the sheer number of them on your waters. I'm not doubting what you see out there. I'm sure it happens more often than we'd like to think. So that leads me to some questions:
1. For the anglers that aren't handling their fish in a manner conducive to their survival: Is it that they just don't know any better? Proper release methods are no secret - that information is there for the taking, and it is EVERYWHERE. It's in every magazine, on every TV show, every club, and you hear it from every guide and every experienced angler. So if there are those who just don't know better? How do we reach them? How do we convince them? If they are oblivious enough where they have never heard about proper release techniques, what exactly can any of us do to get through to them? I see one solution, and that's to take a rookie fishing and share your knowledge with them, so they start out with a foundation of how to safely release the fish, BEFORE they make the mistakes you speak of. The other possibility is that they just don't care. Not sure WHAT we can do about that.
2. Barbless hooks: That may save a few fish. But how many and how often? Until you can quantify that somehow, I don't see that catching on unless you legislate it and enforce it. Until then, it's a voluntary choice that I suspect many won't even consider. Those who DO try will likely only do so until it costs them a substantial sized fish, and then all bets are off. We're all out there to catch fish, not lose them.
3. Water releases: another method that might save a few fish in the long run. But a big part of the whole experience for many is having that picture of them holding that fish, ESPECIALLY if it's a big one. How do you sell that, exactly?
In the end, I think we have to accept that the fisheries were created for the purpose of public enjoyment. And enjoyment, in the broadest terms, means being able to go out there and catch muskies. There's a fine line between preserving the fishery and taking the enjoyment out of it. And when you take the enjoyment out of it for enough people, there ceases to be a reason to maintain it. Some of what's been suggested has gone beyond ridiculous and travelled well into the realm of assinine. Fees, stamps, classes, mandating what gear one must own? It was less of a hassle to get a concealed weapons permit, something I have to protect the life and safety of myself and my loved ones. That's life and death.
This is just fishing...
When we start suggesting that the safety of the fish themselves is more important than the enjoyment of the folks who fish for them, which was the purpose of putting them in the lakes to begin with? We have graduated from fanatic, to extremist, to someone whose senseless babble simply cannot be taken seriously, because they are, quite simply, f-ing NUTS.
And that, my friends, is NOT how we want to present ourselves if we're ever going to get anything positive accomplished for our fisheries ever again.
So anyone out there who wants anything better for the waters you love to fish? The absolute BEST thing you can do, is to be aware of how you present yourselves. Keep your emotions in check, for **** sakes. Speak in facts. Speak with reason. Speak kindly, be informed, and speak with intelligence. Or shut up and let those who can do that do what has to be done; because some of us, honestly, are doing more harm than good. | |
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Posts: 512
| Wow, i dont know where/how this question took a turn, but i have heard from people and guides at their home lakes that always see a large number of dead muskies..
They also see new muskie fisherman not handling the fish correctly, probably the result of all the floaters.. I have seen many people keep fish out of the water for wayyyy to long..
Disturbing, but not much you can do about it..
Dave
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Considering all the folks visiting here who fish those waters, if there were 'large numbers' of floaters, I'd think we'd be seeing pictures of them and hearing about it regularly. | |
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Posts: 597
Location: deephaven mn | PIKEMASTER is on the right path.....water release with the correct tools, no pictures ( it should be close to the 4 foot mark)
there is no need for law inforcement here just education, spread the word on proper practices | |
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Addict; I agree with your sentiments. I'm not for imposing regs regarding barbless, limiting access or any other such things.
I don't know the answers to how to sell going barbless or water release of most fish.
I don't believe the majority of anglers are uncaring, I think that many of them hear so much in regards to how tough muskies are and how barbless hooks will lose them fish. We're told most muskies are released but I know of several hundred that have been mounted out of Big Detroit, Pelican and Lake Sallie over the last decade. Toad Lake Taxidermy has done 20-30 a year for the last 10 years. That's just one guy.
I don't know why in other circles, take trout fishermen for example, or the trophy pike and lake trout fisheries in Canada going barbless is the norm. Muskie fishermen just don't want to go there. Some ask for proof of how many fish it will save. The common sense answer is that the quicker they get unhooked the better the chance.
Do we need to quantify things exactly to realize the benefit?
I don't begrudge anyone a picture or measuring. I've been blessed with a long muskie career with lots of fish. I just don't care to know exactly how big they are anymore, or need another photo of most fish I catch. I think there are a lot of anglers out there that have caught 100,200 or 500+ fish who still feel the need to bump board and photo every fish. I just don't see why that is more important to some then helping to preserve the fishery. Personal bests or other such special fish I photo them and maybe measure too. I just think some of us are taking it to the extreme.
All I know is what I see on the water, what I hear from DNR in working with them and talking to taxidermists locally. I think many of us want to see a better picture of our fisheries than really exists.
I've always held the philosophy or being proactive rather than reactive in managing fisheries. That's just me I guess.
JS
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | JS,
That's alot of mounts. Ouch. Do the taxidermists offer replicas over there? Is it a cost issue or just not much promoting of replicas? | |
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| I think this article would be a good read for some of the people posting here. Although it isn't directly related to musky, I think it should offer some insight.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366_46403_59159-217012--... | |
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Toad Lake Taxidermy did a replica for me 8 years ago. He does a great job and tries to promote them but they just don't catch on to a certain segment of the fishing population.
Other taxidermists don't do replicas around my area. I don't know how many the lesser known are guys mounting. Mark Arnold at Toad Lake is an outstanding taxidermist and a real artist when it comes to painting. He probably gets the majority of local business.
Unfortunately there is a failrly large number of people who have the idea that graphites are "not real", don't look real and want a dead fish on the wall. That is a personal choice obviously but with muskies we have to realize that there isn't a 50"er for everyone to kill. I would bet most fish that are mounted have been released before.
JS
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Posts: 8865
| Well, John...
There are a lot of things we all can do in our own fishing to make sure our fish go back quickly and safely. Those of us who understand what those things are are going to make their own choices, and one can hope that they are the right choices. As it relates to the dedicated muskie anglers, the folks here, the guys in our local clubs, the names we all know, the guides, the die hards... I am not sure there is much we can do, or much more that needs to be done that can make a significant difference in the fishery with those folks. If your local taxidermists are putting up those kinds of numbers? THAT is something we can quantify, and there's no better way to impact the fishery than take a fish out of the system forever. Essentially, we're yelling at guys who keep a fish out of water for a few too many pictures, telling people to use barbless hooks, and do water releases, to offset the folks who are bonking their fish and keeping them for the wall.
Taxidermists have to make a living too, and I can understand why they might not want to tell everyone who walks in the door that they should get a replica instead. But if those numbers of fish are being harvested? If we're to preserve the fisheries, one sure fire way to do that is to decrease harvest.
Two ways to do that as I see it:
1. Higher size limits. That is something that absolutely will NOT happen, unless and until we can circle the wagons, and show up in great numbers to voice our opinion. That requires people getting off their backsides, and that's a challenge that nobody has solved as of yet. How DO we get people to show up and speak up? That's what it takes. Maybe that's something we tackle at the club level?? We do youth outings and Canada outings, fundraisers, and raffles, tournaments, family night, kids fishing derbys.... Why not organize trips to the hearings? Why not have recriutment at the club meetings for folks to go to the hearings, contact the legislators, make a few phone calls? There is not a muskie fisherman ALIVE that doesn't want better fishing. Where is the disconnect between wanting it and making it happen? I suspect that most just don't know what to do. It's not us changing our fishing that's going to change our fisheries. It's us changing THE fishing. And that's where we fall short.
2. Change the harvest mentality. There's no longer any REASON to get a skin mount. Oh, but it's the actual fish! Horse Hockey! It's the skin, stretched over a piece of styrofoam, and painted. It is no more, and perhaps even LESS accurate than a replica. So why ARE people still keeping muskies for the wall? Perhaps because they just don't know any better? Seems to me we need to focus our efforts where they will accomplish the most. And it appears that harvest is still a very huge issue. I find it difficult to understand why you'd harvest a 20 year old fish you don't want to eat, to get a skin mount that eventually degrades, over releasing the fish and getting a replica that's made to the dimensions of your fish and painted to look like it.
So... Why DO people kill fish and get skin mounts? And what do we need to do to get them to realize there are better ways, BEFORE they actually do it? | |
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| Besides education and focusing on C&R and having the right tools etc, we should push for 50 inch size limits mabe even prohibit anything but replicas when it comes to muskies. | |
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Posts: 74
Location: Brainerd, MN 56401 | YES....you are being selfish. Didn't you learn to share in kindergarden. Quit whining and you'll be happier.
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Posts: 90
Location: Ohio | guest - 10/17/2011 7:51 AM Besides education and focusing on C&R and having the right tools etc, we should push for 50 inch size limits mabe even prohibit anything but replicas when it comes to muskies. Won't work and will never happen on the replica only part
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Higher size limits. That is something that absolutely will NOT happen, unless and until we can circle the wagons, and show up in great numbers to voice our opinion. That requires people getting off their backsides, and that's a challenge that nobody has solved as of yet. How DO we get people to show up and speak up? That's what it takes.'
Wisconsin is getting it done state wide for our numbers lakes and one at a time for our trophy waters. Public participation at the CC meetings voting on proposals brought by special interests for and against. We showed up the last few years in numbers that were sufficient, and we won the day...so far.
A legislator decided to try to meddle with the regs once, and public outcry and lack of cooperation in Madison shut that down. | |
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| I think everyone can improve fish handling, myself included, and make better choices on when to fish to limit stress on them. (i.e. fishing in hot water, or in very high winds, if anyone is interested I wrote a couple of articles in EA years back, one with MN DNR biologist Dan Iserman that talks about fish stress and handling.)
Other than that the answer to reducing pressure on individual waters involves getting more waters. That is something that takes a big voice and organization to do, and that is where we are very lacking as a group. I know many of the people that come here do help, but the vast majority have never been to a public meeting about stocking new lakes. We have to get people to do more on that end. We can't let the lake assc. and small numbers of locals dictate what happens because they are the ones that show up.
We need to get involved and quit making excuses to why some of us don't/won't do that.
A side note, with the new 48" limit numbers of killed fish should go down, that just makes sense. It was surprising to me how many of the fish mounted around here locally were in the 42-46" area.
JS | |
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Posts: 20281
Location: oswego, il | One thing that boggles my mind is why these issues are not brought to light in Muskie magazine. Very rare to see any issues to be voted on or petitioned for in the magazine. I hate to call it fear mongering but other organizations use it to great success. Beat the drum in the magazine then the chest when progress is made in the magazine. | |
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Posts: 90
Location: Ohio | As I stated before I just started muskie fishing but how does "high winds" harm muskie? drying them up while they are out of the water?
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | kap - 10/16/2011 10:30 AM
PIKEMASTER is on the right path.....water release with the correct tools, no pictures ( it should be close to the 4 foot mark)
there is no need for law inforcement here just education, spread the word on proper practices
ha...no pictures unless it's a 48"? That is the "right path?"
Probably the silliest thing I have read on here in a long time...and that's a strong statement | |
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Posts: 797
Location: North Central IL USA | That's right. 46 inches....no picture for you!!! | |
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Am i being selfish??