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Posts: 501
Location: S.Wisconsin | Looking at all the talk about water temps, bogas and everything else i started thinking about all the things that we do that hurt these fish that we all love. I personally had a fish die on me a couple years ago because it took a rubber bait halfway down its throat ....it was the worst feeling ever but i guess it happens. So should we stop using these baits.....and what about fish that inhale ..double tens? Point is lets just have fun and enjoy what we do and be smart about it.I sure cant wait for these temps to get down as my boat hasnt seen water in a month and i have the itch bigtime |
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Posts: 437
| IMO if we all sit here and overanalyze this stuff we might as well hang up the rods for good. If it is so bothersome about what might hurt the fish, we shouldnt throw lures with hooks in them. I think we all know and commen sense tells us what is bad for the fish. As long as you have proper release tools, a big net, fight the fish fast and keep them in the water as much as possible there is little else we can do. Things happen. |
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Posts: 305
Location: Illinois | We can stop fishing for them when the waters hot. Most do, but some insist they know better. Fishing pretty good for those guys too, with the lack of pressure and all.
We can stop taking a picture of every single fish we catch, especially in warm water. Take pics of milestones i.e. first fish, biggest fish, or any special fish for that matter. Don't take pics because everyone else does.
We can get muskies inc. to support the idea of being particular when taking a photo. It made sense years ago when a pic was better than a carcass. Now that almost every fish is released, the only thing that will kill them is overhandling, yet it is an accepted practice to take a photo of a 32 inch fish? As a community we need to get smart about how we handle the fish. I would much rather have a guy keep a once in a lifetime fish then kill several dozen accidentally by overhandling.
We can bite our tongue and take the high road when something doesn't appear as big as claimed. This encourages people to kill for proof.
If a guy claims to have caught 3 -35 inch fish, believe him. This way he doesn't need the photo and who cares anyway.
We can work better with other groups of fisherman rather than condescend or battle. In the long run we'll all need each other against the PETA's of the world. |
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Posts: 1039
| A personal pet peeve of mine is guys who think that by fishing at night during warm water that they are not hurting the fish. 85 degree water does not magically cool down and become oxygenated at night.
No way to overcome this other than education on these sites. I think that more "newbies" check out this board and others out there, so the more we talk about it, the more educated they become. |
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Posts: 305
| Go barbless. Results in very quick water releases without smaller fish touching a hand or net in many cases. Those few you do want to photograph do better, too. I know this is a culture change for most, but really helps. Bonus is easier to unhook fisherman who get hooked as well. I also like big deep net as an in water holding pen, when a net is needed. |
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | Very well written Husky Jerk |
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Posts: 157
| If a person wants to take a picture of every musky they catch I see no issue with it. |
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Posts: 581
| husky_jerk - 8/5/2011 2:25 PM
We can stop taking a picture of every single fish we catch, especially in warm water. Take pics of milestones i.e. first fish, biggest fish, or any special fish for that matter. Don't take pics because everyone else does.
We can get muskies inc. to support the idea of being particular when taking a photo. It made sense years ago when a pic was better than a carcass. Now that almost every fish is released, the only thing that will kill them is overhandling, yet it is an accepted practice to take a photo of a 32 inch fish? .
If a guy claims to have caught 3 -35 inch fish, believe him. This way he doesn't need the photo and who cares anyway.
Well, we've come a long ways. Probably only about 20-25 years ago that catch and release really took hold and became universally accepted by the great majority of muskie fisherman. Fast forward to nowadays, and we're preaching that anglers shouldn't even take photos of fish they catch. Maybe that's progress. Maybe its being a tad bit hypervigilant. I'll go with the latter.
As long as the fish isn't held out of the water for more than 10-15 seconds, I fail to see what harm a photo would do. (Sean Landsman's study is relevant in this regard...definitely worth a read).
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Posts: 173
| I'm in the group that wonders WHY people need a picture of every muskie. Ego ? Friends don't believe you ? I understand guides wanting pictures for their website --fail to understand wanting multiple pictures of small muskies to put up on the internet. Must be because I'm OLD. Heck I don't even tweet every time I go in a restuarant ! :-)) |
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Posts: 1270
| While I don't want any of the muskys I catch to die, if they do I'm not going to cry or go into a depressed mode. It's a fish and a renewable resource. Is catching them in warm water good for them? Probably not but then again sticking a couple 7/0 treble hooks in their mouth isn't really doing them any good either. Fishing is a blood sport and sometimes the fish dies. |
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| The essence of the modern day muskie fishermen/women in more about judging and belittlement than chase, catch and release. BR |
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Posts: 305
Location: Illinois | Just to clarify, I personally don't get angry when a person takes a pic of a 35. I did it for manyyears. Then I realized while looking through my photos that I really don't need any more pics of 35's. Then I thought of all of the 35's that get caught and photoed for no reason. It just makes sense to me to stop doing it and I encourage others to do the same. I believe if we ALL accepted the culture of being picky when it comes to photographing fish that more fish would be saved. In my opinion, more fish are killed by overhandling than by harvest. If this philsophy is hypervigilant, then so be it.
I certainly would never jump down someones throat for taking a photo. It's been an accepted practice for many years and it is everyones right. It just seems that the next step in conservation and the cpr process is to get rid of the p and focus on the c and r now that voluntary harvest is at an all time low.
I am not trying to take away anyones right to takle a pic, but instead I am trying to reason with them why they shouldn't. I think Muskies Inc. and the leaders in the sport should also endorse this philosophy. It would certainly save a lot of 35's from being suffocated or dropped.
Thanks for the kind words PROPSTER |
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Posts: 501
Location: S.Wisconsin | I will take a pic of most of the fish i get unless i think it needs to be released right away. Yes the fishing is fun...but i enjoy the catch photo release and high fives. Im not spoiled as my pb is 48" when i stop having fun with the "little" fish i will give it up and start carp fishing. Hope everyone is having a good safe season.....and stick a fattie this fall |
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Posts: 581
| husky_jerk - 8/5/2011 6:11 PM
I believe if we ALL accepted the culture of being picky when it comes to photographing fish that more fish would be saved. In my opinion, more fish are killed by overhandling than by harvest. If this philsophy is hypervigilant, then so be it.
***
I am not trying to take away anyones right to takle a pic, but instead I am trying to reason with them why they shouldn't. I think Muskies Inc. and the leaders in the sport should also endorse this philosophy. It would certainly save a lot of 35's from being suffocated or dropped.
It sounds like its not the photo that bothers you, but rather the possibility of overhandling that comes with an extended photo session. That's fine, but there is a distinction there.
As for the reasoning behind taking a photo...for me, it's not seeing the fish that is so important. I agree that I don't need to see another mid-thirty-incher. Rather, it's about capturing the moment and having it for posterity. I happen to enjoy looking back at old pictures, even of the 34"s and 36'"s and remembering the event. That's just me, but I think others see it the same way. For me, its all a part of my enjoyment of fishing. |
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Posts: 225
Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | Can I ask a question about this whole 'water temps' thing? So, I understand higher water temps = less oxygen in the water for the fish to extract. And 80 degrees seems to be the cutoff point where many guys hang it up until fall. My question is regarding surface water temperature vs. water temp several feet down, and how this affects whether or not one should fish. If it's 80 degrees at the surface, but several degrees lower as the water gets deeper (in a large, very deep lake), is it still something to be avoided? Is 80 at the surface essentially a benchmark for the overall water temp to be problematic? I, like most people here, don't want to unnecessarily increase the chances of killing a fish simply by catching it. Having said that, I DO love fishing, and want to go out whenever I can. So I'm looking for an honest assessment by people more knowledgeable than myself. |
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Posts: 413
Location: Madison WI | gus_webb - 8/5/2011 8:15 PM
Can I ask a question about this whole 'water temps' thing? So, I understand higher water temps = less oxygen in the water for the fish to extract. And 80 degrees seems to be the cutoff point where many guys hang it up until fall. My question is regarding surface water temperature vs. water temp several feet down, and how this affects whether or not one should fish. If it's 80 degrees at the surface, but several degrees lower as the water gets deeper (in a large, very deep lake), is it still something to be avoided? Is 80 at the surface essentially a benchmark for the overall water temp to be problematic? I, like most people here, don't want to unnecessarily increase the chances of killing a fish simply by catching it. Having said that, I DO love fishing, and want to go out whenever I can. So I'm looking for an honest assessment by people more knowledgeable than myself.
For me if the surface temps just hit 80 and 5 ft down it is mid 70's and 10 ft down it is even colder than I will keep fishing, it is when the 1st 3-5 ft of the water column hit 80 or above that I normally stop fishing and wait for the temps to come down. |
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| For the Last couple yrs we've fished with a guide in canada that altered my thinking on the subject. This guide has handled 1000s of fish and is quite confident that regardless of how good you think you are handling fish that once the water gets gets warm that taking them out of the water greatly increases your chance of killing them, The bigger they are the more worse this becomes.
We've had a couple trips up there where we hammered them to the point where I don't even like to tell people what we caught because people say we are lying and I don't really care to argue with them about it. Last yr the water was close to 80 so the guides rule was strict, ALL FISH STAY IN THE WATER. At first this was a little disappointing as we were catching some big fish including personal bests and release shots are never quite as good as the regular shots. But at the end of this trip I realized that every fish swam off strong in the warm water, Usually with a tail slap. We were happy with that and I know that fishery is in good hands as those guides are taking great care with those fish, more then your typical angler south of the border.
When I got back to Minnesota of course I went out fishing, Had the fish going pretty good one night on a metro lake, Thought I was being careful with no pics but I did measure them, and again water temps were close to 80 the first two sat at the surface for minutes before finally going down and the third one never did go down and ended up getting filleted. After that I put the boat on the trailer in the middle of great bite. After this night the difference was clear. All three of the fish I caught that night were much worse off then any the fish we left in the water in canada.
I think its pretty hard to argue that our fishing in Minnesota is getting tougher and tougher. There are probably a lot of reasons for this but we've all seen floaters that are there because someone caught it.
Muskies have low populations and are supposed to have long lives, thats how it works with top predators. Metro fish are probably getting caught at least once a yr with the pressure we put on them. I've caught fish that look like they've been in a net a dozen times. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if a fish ends up getting caught 10 times in its life that even with a 95% release rate that it stands a pretty good chance of dying from unnatural causes.
I agree with some posters that we need to do more to protect our resource while its still worth protecting. We have a different situation then the old "kill" days. We have more muskie anglers then ever and not nearly enough water to spread them out on.
I've been fortunate enough to catch plenty of fish and I've seen some die. Like people say its just going to happen sometime but for me when the water get warm (over 75), the fishery is going too matter more then my scrap book. I don't really care if that fish is 40 or 40.5 so a in the water measurement is close enough and I don't need any more pics of me holding a 42".
I'm not going to belittle people for thinking differently but everyone should understand that the risks go up despite good tools and a deep net. People that think it can't happen to them just haven't done it enough times.
We've all seen the swings that happen with nature and how man can mess up a perfectly good thing, Don't we all have a crappie lake that used to be great until word got out and it was wrecked in 3 months. That same thing can happen to muskies with high pressure and hooking mortality. its just going to take alot longer for things to get good again giving the long life cycle. |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | Obviously a quick warm snap will cause the surface to heat up, and most fish will tolerate that fairly well. When I catch a fish in that scenario I only hold the fish boat side for a second as long as it can stay up right then I let her go and watch. With what we have been facing up here the last month is sustained 78-84 degree water temps. We did some tests about 10 days ago, and the water effected greatest by the heat was the top 9 feet. This is the greatest amount of warm water I have seen since '05, however, it has sustained longer this year. Now when we are catching fish at lower temp points during the day, after the fight is won, we have given them slack boat side thus most of them free themselves. If they need to have assistance on hook removal we will bag them and pop them off and lower the net. If a photo needs to be taken, usually an over the side water shot works. But handling is a minimum and on the hand release as long as they can sit upright a good stern push will send them packing. |
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Posts: 2383
Location: Chisholm, MN | I just talked to a resort owner that said some people staying there caught 3 muskies yesterday and brought them all back to the resort for pictures! Why wouldn't they just bring the camera with? We may never know! They were 35, 36, and 41 inchers in MN. He also said he saw another guy staying there came out of the cleaning house with a bag full of a large carcass. He asked what he was doing and the guy replied, "I'm getting rid of the evidence". Why this guy doesn't turn them in for this behavior I don't know but it really disturbs me. Like it was said earlier, there is a lack of education and I think many people just don't care. Out of towners sometimes feel that they are entitled to keep as many fish as they want because they pay so much to get here. If I were present when this went down it wouldn't have been pretty! Oh yeah and the water was 81 degrees! |
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Posts: 272
| I like your post, "guest," but there are just sooooo many different factors there between your guide fishing trip release results and your night up in the Metro that you could be comparing apples to cinder blocks, honestly. |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Here's a great idea,.... if your worried about "hurting a Fish" just STOP fishing for them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!DUHHHHHHH...... |
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| gus_webb - 8/5/2011 8:15 PM
Can I ask a question about this whole 'water temps' thing? So, I understand higher water temps = less oxygen in the water for the fish to extract. And 80 degrees seems to be the cutoff point where many guys hang it up until fall. My question is regarding surface water temperature vs. water temp several feet down, and how this affects whether or not one should fish. If it's 80 degrees at the surface, but several degrees lower as the water gets deeper (in a large, very deep lake), is it still something to be avoided? Is 80 at the surface essentially a benchmark for the overall water temp to be problematic? I, like most people here, don't want to unnecessarily increase the chances of killing a fish simply by catching it. Having said that, I DO love fishing, and want to go out whenever I can. So I'm looking for an honest assessment by people more knowledgeable than myself.
The thing is the water all the way down gets proportionally warmer. As I stated on another site, I do not believe dissolved oxygen is the cause, as most lakes have plenty even in 85 degree water (at least more than you would find in the lake in February. The problem is fish burn through the oxygen in their body faster at the high temps, faster than their gills can replace it. Think of exercising when you are sick.
Dissolved oxygen will not be much if any higher in September. Here's an example of where it's lower in August than July despite the water temp being 8 degrees cooler. This is a normal cycle in lakes, as dissolved oxygen has more to do with plant growth and water clarity than water temperature. Water would have to be over 90f before it starts to be the limiting factor on oxygen.
http://prodoasjava.dnr.wi.gov/swims/public/reporting.do?type=10&act...
And an interesting one from Pewaukee: note that it was probably a windy day when it was hottest out, or had just rained a lot.
http://prodoasjava.dnr.wi.gov/swims/public/reporting.do?type=10&act... |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Water is most dense at 39.? degrees F. and does not get warmer withdepth.Stick your but in a trout lake and tell me it gets warmer the deeper you put it. |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | Top H2O - 8/6/2011 12:12 AM
Here's a great idea,.... if your worried about "hurting a Fish" just STOP fishing for them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!DUHHHHHHH......
It's not "Hurting a fish" by definition that is being discussed, it's depleting (Hurting) the resource and causing a negative long term effect that we're concerned with. Unfortunately, this misinterpretation of "Hurting a fish" is what often gets musky fisherman labeled as "Elitist fish snobs." Most are speaking about musky as a whole fishery, not a single fish. |
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Posts: 2383
Location: Chisholm, MN | I imagine a giant treble hook through your face has to hurt a little bit! What can you do though? I actually feel a little bit bad for every fish I catch. I tricked mother nature and brought down the beast! Poor fish! I'm still gonna fish though......... |
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| Jsondag - 8/6/2011 10:01 AM
Top H2O - 8/6/2011 12:12 AM
Here's a great idea,.... if your worried about "hurting a Fish" just STOP fishing for them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!DUHHHHHHH......
It's not "Hurting a fish" by definition that is being discussed, it's depleting (Hurting ) the resource and causing a negative long term effect that we're concerned with. Unfortunately, this misinterpretation of "Hurting a fish" is what often gets musky fisherman labeled as "Elitist fish snobs." Most are speaking about musky as a whole fishery, not a single fish.
I wish you were right Jerry, but I think you are describing the minority of musky fishermen. BR |
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| I have seen more died fish in the Fall from Live bait fisherman then any hot water temp during summer months. We are doing a great job of keeping this sport growing but for some people it's all about black and white they forget grey. Enjoy your time on the water. |
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Posts: 21
| Muskies will eat regardless if we fish for them or they slam bass/walleye baits. D.O. is not the answer to your reasons of not wanting to fishing, and I'm really not sure what is. Fast retrieve and quick release with a photo or not and 99% of the time if done right your fish will be fine. D.O. is the most overated issue when musky fisherman start to second guess themselves. Note*the deeper you get in lakes the LESS o2 is present. I mainly fish Rivers where water is constantly slammed with o2. Feeder Streams and many #*^@s within the River. Be smart and fish !!!! Do your best in what you know how to do and dont second guess yourself. For some fishing can only be done when job/family/etc allows it so make the most of it!!! |
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Location: WI | The water usually stays cool enough where I fish that it's not a problem. However the last 2 fish I've caught were in temps of 77 and 81. Part of that might be due to the muddy water which warms up a bit. I took a couple pics of the bigger fish (48) in the net and bumped both, and released quickly. I tried to measure one in the net with a floating stick, but the fish was too squirrely, it was actually faster to bump it.
Granted, I don't need to measure every 37" I get, but I register them with our musky club.
Edited by JKahler 8/6/2011 2:42 PM
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Posts: 131
| So the way I see it , are we not better off to be out there on the water fishing . Aren't the fish better off to have a experanced fisherman catch them then all the unprepaired people I see out there . I've counted 16 walleyes 28"s and bigger all floating ,the biggest was 34 and a half it was a stinky job but it needed to be measured . I don't live on the lake but when I'm there which is often I spend alot of time on the water . I havent seen any muskies floating yet nor have I herd of any. But one things for sure there are alot of people with one maybe two lures , a 99.00 dollar combo package pounding the crap out of the water from a pontoon with to small of a net and no tools to take out the hooks . I'd rather be out there to help out if I could, if and when they tie into one . |
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| no sucker!
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Posts: 3913
| So what do you want the future to be? (Nod to Nektar) Jack Lamb, the bass master and excellent writer stressed the importance of C&R in 1937. Today he would be especially proud of the muskie guys.
Here's a not new idea related to this thread, one I really like....
Shining for muskies with a bazillion-power Q-Beam in the middle of the nite is great fun. Not to fish for what you see, just lookin'.
You won't hurt the fish and you'll learn a whole lot about how to modify your usual darktime presentations.
Anyway, another way to play with muskies....spotlights at nite.
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| Reading thru many of these posts it is very clear that we all care about the health of the fish. Everyone has a little different view on what is acceptable with no magic (perfect) answer. Perhaps we should all make that little extra contribution to Muskies, Inc.. They help promote the fish and sport. I know times are tough but for those that can it would help. Perhaps when we catch that fish that will not make it we will know that we are still doing some good. Use common sense and do your best. For me, the second after I get bit, my concern goes to not doing anything stupid that will hurt the fish any more. Yea, I know it sounds redundant but we have come a long way for the sport of Muskie fishing. Teaching others better ways beats ragging on them if they don't do things the way you think. |
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Posts: 720
| Vahntitrio,
I appreciate your thoughts on dissolved oxygen and its relationship to plant grow and decay. But with all due respect and I'm not going to argue this with you, but you're are wrong. Or might I suggest at the very least over simplfying the arguement that you're presenting. DO can change due to many many factors. Wind is a huge contrubutor to adding Dissolved Oxygen to a lake also the time of year in aqutic plants growing season. The decaying of weeds and cabbage will draw out and thus lower DO levels. Like I said there are many other factors. However, one factor that can't be removed at anytime in this disscusion is the "What is the water tempreture?" The warmer the water I don't care if you're on a 400' deep sheild lake or a 8' deep farm pond. The less gas that water can hold or conversely the colder the water the more gas it will hold. Oxygen is a gas and the cooler the water the more DO that water will contain with some exceptions.
Salmonid waters = fish will see moderate to severe production impairment with DO levels between 6 and 5.
Non-Salmonid waters= fish will see moderate to severe production impairment with DO level between 5 and 3.5
Invertabrates= anything below 5 and you start to see heavy mortality.
So during the summer months in the top layers of water on any given lake even with 100% saturation the DO levels may be to low for musky and other fish that swim in those waters. While you make some valid points the arguement will always almost come back to Water Tempreture. I'll say this again the colder the water tempreture the more gas it can hold. As water becomes warmer and warmer the less DO it can hold. |
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| Hunter4 - 8/8/2011 11:13 PM
Vahntitrio,
I appreciate your thoughts on dissolved oxygen and its relationship to plant grow and decay. But with all due respect and I'm not going to argue this with you, but you're are wrong.
Even though it is true that colder water holds more oxygen there are many more factors at play than just water temp when it comes to lakes. With all of the talk on here about water temp I did some research on the subject and many studies seem to back up Vahntitrio post. I think the more improtant factor is that warmer water is going cause the fish to burn up that oxygen at a greater rate as was also stated and that is what is stressing a caught fish. If you can find some studies that would say otherwise I would like to here them I am always looking for more info. |
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Posts: 720
| JK,
I am just addressing the water temp/ dissolved oxygen relationship. I'm not in the position to comment on warmer water causing fish to use more oxygen. What I do feel is people sometimes confuse the "saturation" and "dissolved oxygen" terms. I also like the fact that this disscusion is making me think and study about things I normally wouldn't. Like you I too am looking for more information. Anything to make me a better fisherman all while helping me be less intrusive and harmful to the resource. For that I would like to say thanks.
One quick question. Does anyone know if there is any corralation between water temps and the release/ dispursement (sp) of lactic acid in a capture fish? |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | I wish people in Indiana would lay off the muskie fishing until the water temps came back down. I know of quite a few (including guides) that are fishing right now with water temps in the mid to upper 80's! |
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| along the lines of Huskys thread, + encourage replicas rather then the actual fish.
I've heard people come back with the notion that anybody can have a replica made and not actually having caught the fish, seems kinda of silly to kill a fish for that reason.
I replica with a 8x10 of you holding the fish should alleviate the notion. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | or get orvis to open up some new stores and just build a fashion and home decor pattern around the lore and art of muskies and the equipment used to hunt them and quit hurting them altogether. |
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| Too end this conversation. STOP FISHING WHEN WATER TEMPS ARE SO FUC*** HOT!!!!!! Any thing over 80 degrees and stress to a musky will potentialy kill them. For REALMAN you must not know how long a musky takes to get to 45+ inches..They don't grow them at the DNR for 10 to 15 YEARS!!!! |
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Posts: 3913
| To continue to the real end of this conversation, if you want to be sure to not harm a muskie then don't hook it in the first place. Otherwise please stop shouting at other people about protecting the fish. Muskie police.... |
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things we should stop doing for the muskies health