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Posts: 152
| My thinking is...water temps 80 degrees plus puts a higher strain on lunge safe releases. Should i wait until water temps fall back into 70's or is it ethical to catch and water release fish in this high temp range? Newer to musky fishing am I...feedback is appreciated. |
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Posts: 75
| Just make sure you have ALL the right Equipment for releasing a fish. With those water temps the fish can go down just because of the fight! Make sure you keep them in the water and if necessary cut the hooks and BE READY WITH THE CAMERA. To many photo's make a difference between recovery and death... |
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Posts: 152
| I have all necessary release tools. still leary of fighting, netting , safely releasing fish. dont ever want to kill a ski no matter the size. surface temps here in WI were 82 yesterday. Thinking i should be bass whackin til temps come down some?
Tnx for feedback. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Lungemadness - 7/22/2011 3:36 AM
Thinking i should be bass whackin til temps come down some?
Tnx for feedback.
best to check with Travis first ... he'll let you know when it's good to do it. his research team is assembling the data as we speak. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | 
Edited by CiscoKid 7/22/2011 7:20 AM
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Posts: 20263
Location: oswego, il | Time to let them be. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | Once the temps reach above 80 I stop targeting musky. I often fish a samll river in Northern Illinois (the Fox) and right now I could be killing the ski's if I wanted (literally and figuratively) because with the water being so low they are schooled up in the deeper holes. It stinks because there are still tons of people targeting and catching musky around here and water temps are 85+. But these are also the same people that catch the musky, put them on the ground to get hooks out, and take a million pics before "successfully releasing" them so I guess there is little chance of survival despite water temps.
Does anyone have a good, easy to understand article/website about musky and high water temps so I can try and educate these people? |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I switch to electroshock fishing after dark. Far less stress on the fish, and with muskies, definitely as difficult getting the big girls to stay still long enough to get 'em properly stunned as it is to get them to eat.
And no hooks to remove.
Seriously, over 80 degrees in the top 1/3 of the water column, I stop chasing muskies. Just kidding about the electroshocking. |
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Posts: 3242
Location: Racine, Wi | I would lay off of them for a bit, especially as hot as it's been the past few weeks (this week especially!). I know of a few nice fish that died the past week or two around here unfortunately. Salmon tastes good (to some people), so I'll keep filling their freezers for them (I can't stand eating salmon, but man they are a riot to catch at night!).
Not to be "one of those people", but please go easy on the 'skis down here until the water cools down a bit. Dead 50's don't fight very well. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | water temps are way too high in the Madison area to chase skis..
going to go get something for the frying pan tonite  |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | we'll be chukin' leaches n lizzards at the historic boat-houses on the chain tonight ... good news is the humidity is coming out of the air and it's feeling much nicer outside! have a great weekend boys ... sure wish i was on the boat out on the big pond joel. that was a hoot!! |
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Location: Racine, Wi | Sled, if I get some a week or so before I head up that way again in August, I'll bring some up for ya. Not sure how long they keep in the freezer, but if they keep for the next few weeks, I'll have some for ya.  Dang 'hos are everywhere this year, and are perfect size (lots of 5-7#ers). |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | we can talk geno into smokin' some for us. we'll take all you got, just wish we could get down there soon. |
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| There was a recent discussion on this in another thread. I'll spare everyone a full rehashing.
People way too often say that once the water temps hit 80, they quit fishing but just a day before when temps were 78 they were practicing CPR. This never makes sense to me. So they can handle it in 78 degree water but once it hits 80 you shouldn't even go fishing anymore? Taking a fish out of the water is very likely to be the most stressful part of the whole ordeal. Pretty simple rule I follow, once temps hit 80 I don't take the fish out of the water, not even for a picture. The additional stress of warm temps gets reduced significantly by not making them have to hold their breath for an extended period. 85+ I hang it up, you're not going to catch much anyhow.
If 82 is your mid-day temp then you're not killing fish, just take extra precautions by not taking the fish out of the water. If you NEED a pic, don't go fishing. |
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| Think of it like a threshold the closer you get to 80 the less oxygen the water can hold.Once it hits 80 the top four feet of the water column hold so little oxygen the fish suffocates. So to the second part of your statement water releases near the surface is really not good either. It's best to stop fishing for a while to protect the future of the sport. |
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Posts: 20263
Location: oswego, il | 80 is a.good benchmark. We don't all carry oxygen meters with hs to determine just what condition a lake may be in. Some lakes are in better shape than others when the water gets hot. While 80 is not a set in stone go/no go it is a good rule of thumb. |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | I agree that fish can handle 80+ if handled properly, or not handled at all. I like many others use 80 as my benchmark for taking a break. It's a tough call with guiding as its a job, and i need to make money, however most clients want a good pic or something of that nature to go home with. So when the surface temps start in the AM at 80+, I urge them to reschedule.
Was supposed to guide yesterday and today, but when out on the water testing my new trolling motor, I noticed the water was almost 85 degrees over 20 ft. Too hot! The clients rescheduled, and I greatly appreciate their understanding!
Finally got to do some needed repairs and put the rods down and go paddle boarding great way to enjoy the bath like water!
Edited by Jsondag 7/22/2011 8:55 PM
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Location: Kronenwetter, WI | I avoid the heat of the day and stArt fishing evenings and early mornings. Then only do 'net releases'. The two i got today seemed to like that approach as they took off like rockets.
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| JK, I don't think fish will "suffocate" when temps hit 80. How would any muskies survive in Kentucky, Missouri, Ohio, etc.... where temps are upper 80s for several months? Nobody knows what the thresholds actually are, 80 degrees is a guess at best.
Cowboyhannah, if low dissolved oxygen levels is the biggest danger, dissolved oxygen does not get added to the water overnight (no sun and typically no wind). When the DO peaks in the middle of the day when temps are in low to mid 80s, the amount of DO will only drop from there and will be at their lowest levels at sunrise. So if you think it's fine to fish in the mornings, why not fish throughout the day?
http://www.fl-seafood.com/i/aquarium_do_figure1.gif
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Posts: 132
Location: Missouri | guest 1 - 7/23/2011 9:11 AM
JK, I don't think fish will "suffocate" when temps hit 80. How would any muskies survive in Kentucky, Missouri, Ohio, etc.... where temps are upper 80s for several months? Nobody knows what the thresholds actually are, 80 degrees is a guess at best.
In those states the surface temps are prett irrelevant to their survival as long as the lake is deep enough for the fish to get out of the warm water. The surface temp is not the temp of the entire water column. When the temps get hot the fish go to deep cool water.... If a person fishes for them in that deep cool water bringing them up to the hot surface WILL kill fish.
Why be selfish and try to catch 1 more fish when the water gets hot. Just give it up at 80. So what if not all the fish will die. But why take the chance.?? |
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Location: South Portsmouth, KY | guest 1 - 7/23/2011 10:11 AM
JK, I don't think fish will "suffocate" when temps hit 80. How would any muskies survive in Kentucky, Missouri, Ohio, etc.... where temps are upper 80s for several months? Nobody knows what the thresholds actually are, 80 degrees is a guess at best.
Cowboyhannah, if low dissolved oxygen levels is the biggest danger, dissolved oxygen does not get added to the water overnight (no sun and typically no wind ). When the DO peaks in the middle of the day when temps are in low to mid 80s, the amount of DO will only drop from there and will be at their lowest levels at sunrise. So if you think it's fine to fish in the mornings, why not fish throughout the day?
http://www.fl-seafood.com/i/aquarium_do_figure1.gif
The muskies survive fine down here in the south when the temps get over 80 as long as your not fishin for them. its the stress of catchin them in the hot water which hurts the fish |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | saw a bunch of people out on the chain enjoying some fishing while running errands today ... must be a bass tournament coming up with lots of pre-fishing going on. saw one guy make a solid hookset on a pretty decent fish that must have been buried deep in the millfoil right next to bj's sports (pretty cool). i did see some bulldawgs bein' chucked in savemore bay.
i thinki'll put a light and siren on my boat and go educate everyone. |
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| riverrat, where do they go to escape the heat? Below the thermocline? There isn't any oxygen below the thermocline once the lake stratifies, the deeper you go the less oxygen there is: http://lter.limnology.wisc.edu/slrecent30.html.
muskie_man, I agree that warmer temps = more stress but by not taking them out of the water, stress is greatly reduced. It doesn't make sense that you can CPR in upper 70s buy you can't even CR in low 80s. I'm with you once temps get in mid 80s though.
Jsondag, I understand your position. Tough to tell a client before you go fishing that if they catch anything they can't even get a picture. |
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Posts: 793
Location: Ames, Iowa | When I quit teaching in 9 years maybe I'll become a researcher and get these ?s figured out relative to EsoxM. Ought to be some more great threads and posts in the meantime.
"I was completely confused about the White Album for awhile"
Now that was funny Steve. By the way, doc says I have to go back to just squeezed lemon on the salad (a Sworral invention I think) instead of dressing. |
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Location: oswego, il | So if 80 is ok when is it too hot? |
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| If you handle fish properly 80 is OK; but over this creates problems as all has to go well. I like early morning because temp is usually cooler but not always. As the day progresses temps do nothing but increase in these conditions. |
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| High Water temps push fisherman away and if the only water you fish in is 25' or shallower then leave the skies alone. but you'll notice fish move to deep water this is were you would want to fish. better water for fish and every little stress to fish in deepwater(35'-90') trolling or casting for suspended skies is the place to be in high water temps. I've ntice this year they are fat and alive in the deep end of the lake. |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | Obviously, every lake is different - LOTW get that water into upper 70s touching 80 and the fish go berserk and see to release with vigor - Some of the clearer MN lakes those fish shut off or if caught have a tough time releasing. I have found that the dirtier the water, the fish are more tolerable to the warmer temps, and those cleaner water fish have a slower recovery time.
I agree that targeting open water muskies can be a great technique when the water is on the rise, however, when the upper columns in the water become heated the oxygen is decreased. Lets say for example, the area is 50 ft. deep, Thermocline is set up at 25, and surface temps are 81 degrees. The fish are going to suspend in the area with the highest oxygen levels. Probably the 15 - 20 ft mark on the locator. A fish that is brought quickly to the warm oxygen depleted layers of water will often result in a hard or slower release.
In the past, I have noticed fish that live and thrive in the shallower water seem to fare better being caught in it. The deeper cooler water fish are the ones that have the toughest time with the stress - Just what I observe. |
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Posts: 112
Location: Nielsen's Fly-In Lodge, on Rowan Lake | IMO it is very important to get that fish to some shallow water and let her rest .Don't let them go in deep water they just can't recover and yes have all the right tools |
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Posts: 60
Location: Lake Minnetonka | Sooooooo...is this fisherman theory, or was there actual studies done by professional biologists? Wondering... |
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Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | I would say theory - as most of the things we know about these fish are purely based on theory.
That and time on the water observing.
Edited by Jsondag 7/23/2011 6:51 PM
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Location: Ontario | ...which is worth ten pint glasses full of theory if you ask me. I'm pretty inclined to listen to what a guy like Jerry has to say.
Edited by JBush 7/23/2011 7:15 PM
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Location: Brookfield, WI | Play golf. Or sand volleyball. Save a musky.
Kevin |
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Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | The way I see it, as a good rule of thumb, when I head out on the lake on a hot day, and panfish, baitfish, and the occasional gamefish pops up dead dotting the surface it's probably time for me to take a break. Earlier this week, I was out watching the temps rise and passing dead sunny after dead sunny. Got to an open water spot, and there were a couple dead XL Ciscos. I figured the less oxygenated water was saturating the water columns deeper than the surface. In my boat, it's a time to be conscience and probably do something else. |
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Posts: 317
| I think it depends on where you are and the characteristics of the watershed.
DO trumps temp, and handling trumps both.
It's more of an issue of dissolved oxygen than water temps. Also, and I only speak for my home waters of N. IL, but the strain of fish that we have (Ohio) was chosen for it's warm water tolerance. These fish here are acclimated to warm water, and in fact, they don't really become aggressive until high 70's-low 80's. Fishing in 82 water does not worry me here, especially with the current and oxygen levels. Also, it comes down to handling, and most fish are never taken out of the water. In areas such as WI and MN were water temps are not normally this high, I absolutely agree that fishing should stop at 80, because the fish just aren't used to it. I personally believe the stop level where I'm at is 85. The fish are still aggressive, but a line has to be drawn. Plus, who wants to fish in that heat?
Edited by MuskyStalker 7/24/2011 12:34 PM
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| If you think that you can fish on a Northern Illinois system of lakes in 80 plus degree temps and not stress fish, your kidding yourself. I know the majority of fish that are in that system are ohio strain but what about the spotted fish also present? That system gets some current, but it also carries huge sediment loads when under current as well as heavy bloom at this time of year. Combine that with the weed spraying that typically takes place on this system and your disolved oxygen content can't be good! I guess I can go south and fish (*pick a reservoir*) when the temps are around 90 because those fish are used to those temps and because they are reservoirs and they have current? |
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Location: Missouri | Don't be tricked by fish swimming off just fine and assuming they will live. Its documented with other fish species that heat related stress results in increased delayed mortality.
Also most of the fishes stress comes when fighting them in. While handling makes a difference, even a well handled fish is very susceptible to death from the stress of the fight in warm temps.
Edited by riverrat09 7/24/2011 4:39 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 78/79 degrees in one bay, 81 in another, and warmed on the deeper transducer to boot, not a good sign. Sue and I put away the muskie gear and fished bluegills. Crappies and gills tonight with a bonus bass, and dinner was superb. |
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Posts: 317
| "That system gets some current, but it also carries huge sediment loads when under current as well as heavy bloom at this time of year. Combine that with the weed spraying that typically takes place on this system and your disolved oxygen content can't be good!" This is no longer correct. Zebra Mussles have really cleared the water on the northern lakes and aside from moderate bloom, water quality is quite good. Thermocline is well established around 25', which makes for plenty of oxygenated waterspace for fish. At least on the northern lakes I have not seen any heat killed or stressed baitfish, and it has been quite breezy, even when hot, which also adds oxygen. Like I said:
1.Handling
2.DO
3.Temps |
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Posts: 152
| Thanks to all the replies. thought it was an interesting question to start a thread.
Lots of opinions...think i'll continue bluegill fishing for awhile. We ALL seek monsters
but there is time for that later in the year. No need to unnecessarily kill bigger than average fish just to say "I got 3 more this week"... IMO |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Tying this into the Bassin thread, from what I have found most info is all based on theory. Pretty tough to find any kind of concrete evidence supporting what temps we should or shouldn’t be fishing at for various species of fish. Always an argument for or against it depending on how someone interprets info, and how the same info can actually be portrayed to support or disprove the same argument. In the end it all boils down to individuals ideas of what kind of conservationist they want to be themselves. Each person should have an idea of how well they handle fish, the effects that has on the fish, and in the end should know best when or when not to be fishing.
Not bad to have guidelines though. Of which the musky angling community has adopted 80°…based on what I am not sure. Not sure of other species communities have adopted similar guidelines or not.
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| For me, a better approach to stuff like this is to just take a good look at who the authors are of the various comments made on subjects that tend to get somewhat contentious. Some of the guys who post are clearly "expert" in this field and probably do represent "proven science" based on thousands of hours on the water. If I see six or eight guys I believe to be really "Top Sticks" all sounding sort of the same on an issue....well that's usually good enough for me. That's even more true for me when I see a guy who is a top-tier guide telling me to stay off the water, when it is costing him money to say it. Marty Forman |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | You could be the best musky handler in the world but that doesn't make it okay to target musky in hot water, IMO. Even if you don't take them out of the net or do a water release they are still stressed from the fight itself. You never know if you are going to hook one deep where it requires an extensive amount of time to remove the hooks. And how do you know that DO levels are sufficient on your particular lake when the temp is over 80? Basically everyone, even guides whose income depends on catching muskie, agrees 80 is the stopping point and I'm sure they (the guides) handle musky just as good as anyone.
Edited by fish4musky1 7/26/2011 10:01 AM
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Posts: 224
Location: Madison | fish4musky1 - 7/26/2011 9:44 AM
Basically everyone, even guides whose income depends on catching muskie, agrees 80 is the stopping point and I'm sure they handle musky just as good as anyone.
Everyone except "Guest." It's interesting how many of the people who claim it's OK to fish in warm water seem to be afraid to be ID'ed. |
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| Jsondag - 7/23/2011 9:18 PM
The way I see it, as a good rule of thumb, when I head out on the lake on a hot day, and panfish, baitfish, and the occasional gamefish pops up dead dotting the surface it's probably time for me to take a break. Earlier this week, I was out watching the temps rise and passing dead sunny after dead sunny. Got to an open water spot, and there were a couple dead XL Ciscos. I figured the less oxygenated water was saturating the water columns deeper than the surface. In my boat, it's a time to be conscience and probably do something else.
Just curious Jerry.....and you may have eluded to this already.....but what do you do when you have a trip booked by out-of-staters that have traveled many hrs to fish with you, and the water temps aren't cooperating. Are those clients out their deposit, rainchecked? The reason I ask is that if I schedule a vacation to fish that may be the only days I could get away from work, so a raincheck wouldn't do me much good for that season, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to keep rainchecking days into next year that you could book for full price. Just wondering?
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| Junkman - 7/26/2011 8:18 AM
For me, a better approach to stuff like this is to just take a good look at who the authors are of the various comments made on subjects that tend to get somewhat contentious. Some of the guys who post are clearly "expert" in this field and probably do represent "proven science" based on thousands of hours on the water. If I see six or eight guys I believe to be really "Top Sticks" all sounding sort of the same on an issue....well that's usually good enough for me. That's even more true for me when I see a guy who is a top-tier guide telling me to stay off the water, when it is costing him money to say it. Marty Forman
Just saying, being as though there is no real proven science, couldn't most/all the guides say that 80* is their stopping point just so that people like us listen to them and clear up the summer traffic for themselves? Just saying. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | guest - 7/26/2011 11:45 AM
Junkman - 7/26/2011 8:18 AM
For me, a better approach to stuff like this is to just take a good look at who the authors are of the various comments made on subjects that tend to get somewhat contentious. Some of the guys who post are clearly "expert" in this field and probably do represent "proven science" based on thousands of hours on the water. If I see six or eight guys I believe to be really "Top Sticks" all sounding sort of the same on an issue....well that's usually good enough for me. That's even more true for me when I see a guy who is a top-tier guide telling me to stay off the water, when it is costing him money to say it. Marty Forman
Just saying, being as though there is no real proven science, couldn't most/all the guides say that 80* is their stopping point just so that people like us listen to them and clear up the summer traffic for themselves? Just saying.
ya, they are trying to trick us... better hit the water harder than ever when temps reach above 80 because the 'skis are really biting. |
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| Musky Stalker wrote:This is no longer correct. Zebra Mussles have really cleared the water on the northern lakes and aside from moderate bloom, water quality is quite good. Thermocline is well established around 25', which makes for plenty of oxygenated waterspace for fish. At least on the northern lakes I have not seen any heat killed or stressed baitfish, and it has been quite breezy, even when hot, which also adds oxygen. Like I said:
1.Handling
2.DO
3.Temps..... Ok, sediment load come from the fox river bringing in the "current" you speak of to this system, zebras can't filter the incoming water from the river quickly. If water is clear then current is low. If you have a well established thermocline, then current can't be of any large amount otherwise you wouldn't see a themocline. You keep fishing your hot water and telling everyone that is it ok and justify it any way you want. I will stay home until surface temps get what I feel are safe (sustained 78 degrees or below). 3. Temps are to hot to fish safely in my opinion. 2. Do you have a disolved oxygen probe and meter that you take measurements on this system with? If so i would love to tag along and see your findings or how you come about your theories. 1. handling.... why even fish when for those fish when it's questionable??? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Just saying, being as though there is no real proven science, couldn't most/all the guides say that 80* is their stopping point just so that people like us listen to them and clear up the summer traffic for themselves? Just saying.
Uhh, no, MuSk.
There's plenty of literature out there on the effects of warm water on muskies, and many DNR fisheries biologists will not sign off on a permit for a tournament...even a small one like an MI event...if the water is too warm and during times when it's regularly been an issue in the past.
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| People can and will do whatever they have to rationalize to themselves why it is ok to fish in temps @ or above 80. Sometimes these people are doing it because they are all to concerned with getting those numbers of fish for their yearly plaque or what not. Sometimes its because they love fishing out there when all of the responsible and better sticks are not fishing because they know better.
It always amuses me though that these posters always are the "internet pro" types . The types who post on every message board talking as if they are the best thing since sliced bread and on a great year they catch 5-10 fish. They talk about not taking pictures and water release because its too hot and then theres the photo of the 30 incher. Really? Telling you about how they are superior fish handlers but they catch 10 fish a year if they are lucky. really? Huh?
My biggest concern is for the newcomers to the sport to read posts where people say its accepted behavior to fish when its too hot. If thats their first lesson in this matter , its definitely not the right way to lead them. I guess i'd rather the people that think along these lines to talk to your local DNR or fisheries biologist about delayed mortality. Just because you watched her swim off you tell yourself its OK?. Out of sight out of mind Eh? Not so fast. Have an open mind and learn more before you write that its ok to do on the internet. The tone I generally get from these posts is not that of wanting to discuss, but wanting to stir the pot and rile people up.
At the end of the day its a free country and people will do as they please . I dont fish when the water gets at or above 80 degrees. Its an individual belief of mine, and my wish is that everyone uses their sense of good judgement. Take care and tight lines |
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Excellent points fish4musky1
I agree with you 100% ...... Let's give em a break for a month or so |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Just to clarify I am not for fishing for muskies above 80° if that is the way some took my message. Nor am I for fishing other species, unless they are going in the frying pan, once the water gets *too hot*. I do feel it does beg to question how *too hot* is determined, and thus why there are forums for us all to discuss such topics. |
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Posts: 255
| So here is a scenario: I am able to take one week every year to my family's cabin in Northern WI. We cannot go elsewhere. It has to be the first week in Aug. every year. I have no choice in the matter. I love to fish musky and so do the kids. So if we do not ever target other fish because we prefer muskies, what do you do? Do I just sell my boat and tell the kids "Too bad!"? Probably not a good idea. I am fishing muskies. I handle them properly, I fish at the best times, and I am all about CPR. I guess I am a musky killer if I don't buy a $1000 DO tester or if water temps are too high. |
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Posts: 444
| There was a tournament on Forest Lake in MN last saturday, water temps were above 80. |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Not bad to have guidelines though. Of which the musky angling community has adopted 80°…based on what I am not sure. Not sure of other species communities have adopted similar guidelines or not.'
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Statements in the literature from the leading muskie authorities in the world and the absolute fact leading muskie fisheries biologists will not sign off on a permit for competitive angling when temps are traditionally high ( even just averaging high 70's), and may step in and cancel an event if there's fear temps will be in the 80 degree range or higher. I have spoken with Wisconsin and Minnesota fisheries folks who tell me 80 is a good number at which to leave muskies alone, especially if through the major portion of the water column.
Why not permit a muskie tournament? Social stigma attached to finding several floaters a few days after a hot water event. It's happened, and they won't encourage it happening again. Nothing much to do with the biological damage, it's considered negligible even if a few fish are killed. if the local biologist sees no harm in losing a few fish to temperature related added stress, they may sign off anyway. I'd bet a dollar you won't find one in Minnesota.
Walleyes? Most events are listed as 'kill events' in the heat of the summer. If the event organizers want to try to release fish, the DNR has to be there and has the say on every fish going back into the water. Some states will not allow a transport event during hot water periods at all unless it's a kill event. Some states ban walleye events totally during the summer.
There will be some mortality, mostly due to livewelling for long periods of time, no matter the time of year and water temps. AIM got around that by immediate CRR, which was recently accepted in Iowa.
Bass?
Nothing out there we have seen, and we cover a bunch of the B.A.S.S and FLW Tour events. Talking with folks who run the big shows, no reason for there to be an issue overall, if the fish are handled properly, and many times a local biologist is on hand. There will be some mortality, mostly due to livewelling for long periods of time, which is why there's a serious point loss for a dead fish in many events. Good source, considering those events usually transport the fish in the well for as long as hours, and I'm letting the fish I don't want to harvest go immediately.
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Some have only become experts as no one ever questions the data, and sometimes those that are contentious are so as they refuse to be Lemmings.
Supporting data validates statements…not age or title.'
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At least try to listen to those who have lived and fished in the South in REAL heat, or have taken the time to learn the answers from the right sources or had the personal experience to offer answers. And at least try not to be rude if those answers conflict with your beliefs. Simple stuff. Sometimes being older just means willingness to listen and learn, and discussing things reasonably. Sometimes, it just means crabby. When you get there, and you will, some 'punk kid' will call you out, too. Good luck keeping your demeanor.
From a friend/associate of mine over in Ohio in fisheries:
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The July weather pattern has led to a keen interest in hot lake water and how it might affect the incidence of delayed mortality on muskies being caught and released. The short answer is that the odds for delayed mortality are higher because of the water temperatures and the only way to completely avoid it is not to fish until conditions improve. The fact that State and private fish hatcheries, as a practice, do not deliver and stock even channel catfish in 80-degree water temperatures because of increased fish mortalities serves as a real world example. Can muskie anglers still fish and use methods that reduce the odds for delayed mortality? Absolutely. I have written and presented techniques at seminars for many years on how to accomplish this. Fast water releases are the key technique. However, this post is aimed at what effect higher lake temperatures have on our ability to release healthy muskies that continue to grow bigger and be caught another day not just to see them eventually go-down. Its important to note that delayed mortality may take days and be hardly noticed but frequently it occurs by the next morning after the release.
Delayed mortality may occur from the combination of stressors a fish experiences during a catch and release fishing event along with any associated tissue damage and blood loss. Our lake conditions since the Fourth of July have become a major factor because the sustained hot weather conditions have warmed the surface waters above 80-degrees (morning temperature) and caused that temperature to reach all the way down to the thermocline. The dissolved oxygen at the thermocline depth drops below 4 ppm. This is a key point because once the coolest water available to a cool-water species like muskies goes above the 80-degree range or below 4-6 ppm oxygen, the fish reach a stressful situation. Thats why the odds for delayed mortality go up under these conditions. The fish are already at the point of stress before being caught. A muskie stressed by warm water or low oxygen will continue to feed to a point, making them vulnerable to angling. In fact, being cold-blooded means their metabolism is greater at higher temperatures, but eventually the stress shuts their feeding down and they start to lose body condition.
For example, both Alum Creek and Caesars Creek Lakes currently have conditions where the 80-degree water has reached all the way down to the 4 ppm oxygen levels at the thermocline. With continued hot weather conditions, it will only become worse. The oxygen in warm upper layer the (epilimnion) that doesnt mix with the colder water below it with little or no oxygen (hypolimnion) will continue to reduce in depth, making the thermocline shallower and forcing the muskies into hotter water and even more stressful conditions.
Its no coincidence that some of our best muskie lakes have cool or coldwater sources, whether from springs, ground water, or cold feeder streams. The cold water helps provide summer refuge from extreme water conditions. A side effect of summer stress is reduced growth. The good news is that we commonly start to experience better conditions by the end of August. Alum Creek, for example, starts to de-stratify by the end of August in most years. We were fortunate last year to experience an abnormally cool summer with water temperatures that stayed below 78-degrees in August.
There are a few other facts to consider while fishing during summer if you choose to do so. Years ago delayed mortality was not an issue because most everyone kept the muskies they caught. Anglers quit fishing if they reached their legal limit. As Muskie Inc. members, most of us strive to obtain quality releases and our hopes are to avoid delayed mortality. However, we could be causing more mortality by fishing at the wrong time or with bad releases than someone whose goal is to keep muskies. How many of us stop fishing after just one release?
Immediate, or near immediate, mortality fish are easy to spot because they float belly up in the surrounding area of the attempted release. Fish caught from deep water that cant be released immediately will experience air-bladder expansion which also causes them to float belly-up. If they are too weak to swim back down to neutral buoyancy, they will die in the hot surface waters. Some of you may have seen my muskie presentation where I show a technique that is a last ditch effort to save a muskie that experiences air bladder expansion. I use my anchor rope marked for the thermocline depth and clip the muskie by the front of its jaw using a very short 4 lb test line and a #10 hook and then lower it back down to just above the thermocline. When the muskie regains its strength, it will pop itself free and not float back up. Some key points if you need to try this: you must know the thermocline depth or at least the depth you caught your muskie at. Below this depth there may be no oxygen plus the fish will only reach neutral buoyancy at this depth. Choose a release site that is just shallower than the thermocline so the fish can rest on the bottom. If one releases a fish that is not strong enough to maintain swimming after pulling free from the release hook over open water, the fish can sink like a rock if water deeper than its original depth is present. Water pressure is what causes this effect. More compressed oxygen in the air bladder is needed to remain neutrally buoyant the deeper a fish goes. A fish that drops below the summer thermocline after a bad release will suffocate and will not float. They lay in the cold un-oxygenated anoxic water and are slowly digested by anaerobic bacteria.
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Location: 31 | I think that's kind of interesting on the early morning temps being lower and therefore less stress… but… IMHO, there are some other pretty obvious factors that should be considered besides just the surface temperature. Was the fish in deeper water (like Jerry says), was it hooked badly, is it windy or rough, a long fight, a larger/older fish, Not to mention how experienced/inexperienced the fishermen is at release. All these factors are going to increase/compound an already stressful situation. This past weekend I was trolling by myself and the warmest surface temperatures I observed was 76°, (I point this out because it takes me longer to put them in the bag solo). Anyway, after a couple of successful releases, I decide I want a measurement on about a 4'er. I definitely understand the temp/rough/solo deal and checked out the fish in the bag after unhooking and getting her in a good recovery position. She was flapping her gills, upright without support... every thing was cool. I grab the fish with good belly support and gently set it on the waiting bump board and then right back in the net to recover (15 seconds). I would normally just put the fish back in the lake but when it's rough like that I preferred putting them back in the net no matter what the water temperature is. Anyway, she very freakishly just went belly up immediately and died right there in my arms. There was simply nothing I could do to revive her... the sad part is that I'm confident I could have just let her swim out of the net if I didn't remove her from the water...no guarantees of course. It pains me to admit it, but she died like that because I wanted that stupid meaningless measurement. If someone wants to blast me for admitting I made this mistake, so be it... it certainly will not be my last. I'm just hoping this helps to increase understanding. |
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| I used to guide years ago and never was one for over 80 on water temp. I guided because I needed the money and turning down jobs only hurt me and most clients could not use rainchecks because of their limited time. I almost always was able to talk clients into going out real early or real late when temps subsided and if not able to accomplish this I'd tell them it was just too hot and I'd lose the job. It seems like the bigger fish are more likely to die; maybe this is because they usually take a little longer to land. But if given the choice I don't go out like i'm doing right now; waiting for the temps to cool and they will in a few weeks. I also have better action when the temps are cooler; prefer high 60's. Right now it's not only to hot for the fish but for the fisherman as well.. |
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| MuskyStalker, you state low DO levels as the main reason we need to quit when water temps reach 80+ but I fail to understand this. It seems like an extremely simple concept, generally speaking the higher the water temps the less oxygen water can hold. However, I believe there are so many seasonal/daily factors that determine current DO levels that water temp is actually a poor indication. I present to you more Lake Mendota buoy data. First is DO levels for the month of July 2011: http://metobs.ssec.wisc.edu/app/mendota/buoy/data/ascii?symbols=wt_... . DO levels at the beginning of the month are around 8ppm with water temps at 70. When the heat started pouring on from 7/16 through 7/20, water temps at 0.5m deep hit 80 (26.6) on 7/19 and DO levels were at 12ppm! Then only briefly to they dip below 10ppm and they only do so early in the morning (again, this would be the absolute worst time to fish).
Now, check out October of 2009 after turnover mixes everything up: http://metobs.ssec.wisc.edu/app/mendota/buoy/data/ascii?symbols=wt_... . DO levels are between 6-8ppm for the first 2 weeks! That's half as much oxygen than when water temps were 80. Wouldn't a fish be more susceptible to suffocation in October after a long fight?
Please somebody correct me if I'm interpreting the data incorrectly. Also someone with more biology background than me, can fish survive significantly lower DO levels just because the water is cooler?
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I think the danger zone for DO is significantly lower than any of the readings supplied, but I'm also not sure what part of the water column is measured by the bouy and where it's placed. Keep in mind also Mendota is somewhat of an anomaly.
Please read the piece I posted above, it speaks somewhat to your question and should help you in understanding the difference between DO levels at the top of the water column and the thermocline and releasing a stressed fish, and the effects of multiple stressors. |
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Posts: 317
| This is all very interesting, and I appreciate the calm rational and scientific responses, as opposed to the OMG crowd. I firmly believe that it really depends on the system you fish. I would have serious reservations in fishing on a lake like Tomahawk when the surface temps were 82. Fish in that system would not be acclimated and I'm sure that they would be stressed. I also would not fish Cave Run or Shelbyville because of low DO and heat.
When we fish the Fox Chain, fish are coming out of 3'-10' of weedy water, with temps anywhere from 78-83. These fish are acclimated. They seek out this water. They are aggressive and feisty and release well. If I saw hard releases I would think differently, but I just don't. That's not to say there isn't stress or even delayed mortality, but these are present in a percentage of all releases, regardless of temps.
Being out 2-4 days a week (always early mornings in summer) I pay attention to the water. I notice changes, how the wildlife reacts. I see a lot of fish activity, lot's of baitfish moving, lot's of follows...birds, everything points to healthy water. There were days , last year especially when we did not have adequate rainfall (no current) and extreme heat, where the water just looked wrong. There was no activity. Those days we just went home.
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Consider the entire water column average temperature range and where the DO problem is the largest.
Obviously, 80 degree water is not fatal to Muskies, it takes several stressors to cause delayed or immediate mortality. And no, you won't kill every one CPR'ed in 82 degree water, but you WILL kill 'too many' based upon how long it takes a Muskie to get to legal size in the first place and how many there are in total in any given waterbody. Obviously, Bass (and Bass populations) are far more tolerant to middle 80's than muskies. Reality indicates that clearly when considering permitting tournaments, survival of the fish indicated by successful release rates, etc.
No one is talking about 87 to 90 Plus degree water. I personally have never seen that where I fish Bass...OR muskies, and if I did, I'd not fish either. If water temps got much higher than that, fish would die wholesale with no angling pressure. Doesn't happen up here.
Population density, recruitment, water quality, competition, forage base and much more enter into the debate with Bass and muskies.
Bass have a much higher tolerance to catch and release in water temps at 80 to 82 degrees than Muskies and Walleyes, and fisheries biologists permit tournaments accordingly. I don't fish any eutrophic (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eutrophic) waters up here where DO is below the tolerance during the year and as a result, they perhaps shouldn't be fished during algae blooms and cycles and high temps.
Couple references:
http://www.bassmaster.com/news/new-law-allows-culling-wisconsin
http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/pubs/bassplan.pdf
Texas:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8675%281999%29019%3...
The WIDNR estimated before the new 'culling allowed' rule after studying events that tournament handled bass mortality averaged 5%. Previous estimates were at 25%. Advances in weigh in site technology and better handling because of better livewells and better overall handling dropped the mortality rate. We see similar estimates elsewhere, even in Southern waters.
Estimates in Texas events reflected in the link provided are at less than 2% for immediately released fish...the AIM CRR format so to speak.
Estimated post capture mortality for muskies is higher. Even in cool waters.
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | MuskyStalker - 7/26/2011 11:12 PM
I would have serious reservations in fishing on a lake like Tomahawk when the surface temps were 82. Fish in that system would not be acclimated and I'm sure that they would be stressed. I also would not fish Cave Run or Shelbyville because of low DO and heat.
When we fish the Fox Chain, fish are coming out of 3'-10' of weedy water, with temps anywhere from 78-83. These fish are acclimated. They seek out this water.
You don't think the muskie in Cave Run, Shelbyville, or Lake Tomahawk seek out water that is 3'-10'... I bet they do, they must be acclimated to the hot water so does that makes them okay to target when its hot?
The fish on Cave Run or Shelbyville are used to way hotter water than these Fox Chain fish, so is it okay to target them in 90 degree water if we see a lot of baitfish, birds, and wildlife activity in the area? These are signs of healthy water that the fish can properly recover in after a battle, right?
MuskyStalker - 7/26/2011 11:12 PM
They are aggressive and feisty and release well. If I saw hard releases I would think differently, but I just don't. That's not to say there isn't stress or even delayed mortality, but these are present in a percentage of all releases, regardless of temps.
The Chain muskie are no super fish, they aren't going to survive any better with low DO levels than other muskie. Of course they are aggressive and active when its hot, as water the temperature rises so does the fishes metabolism. They must eat more to survive when water temps are high, hence the reason why you are catching so many.
MuskyStalker - 7/26/2011 11:12 PM
Being out 2-4 days a week (always early mornings in summer) I pay attention to the water. I notice changes, how the wildlife reacts. I see a lot of fish activity, lot's of baitfish moving, lot's of follows...birds, everything points to healthy water.
LOL, bird sightings are a sign that it's okay to musky fish?
And the whole point of not fishing when there are low DO levels is because fish have a harder time recovering after a release. Sure, they may give a good tail kick and swim off but its the recovery stage that does them in. The muskies can survive just fine in hot water, it's the whole part of hooking them through the mouth, pulling them in with a line as they fight for their life, netting them, and most likely in your case taking them out for a picture that causes the harm. They are stressed out after a battle, they have a build up of lactic acid, and need a sufficient amount of DO to recover. I really don't see how you think you are right, pretty much everyone on here agrees the stopping point is 80, but you insist that on "your" water it's 85. Next thing we know it will be 85 everywhere, then 90, because the fish are "acclimated to hot water on this system". |
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Posts: 317
| well then, you might as well quit fishing. I mean, you'll fish in 78 degree water but not? Please... |
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| "Estimated post capture mortality for muskies is higher. Even in cool waters."
Please share, what is the estimated mortality for muskies? I wouldn't have a problem fishing for muskies at 2 or even 4% mortality rate. Heck, birth control is said to only be 99% effective and I'm scoring a lot more often in that category than I am catching muskies! In other words, it's a risk I'd be willing to take. |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Depends on which study and what the parameters were. It's been estimated that about 5% to as high as 10% of the muskies captured using average angling techniques and average release skills will perish.
An excellent recent study by Sean Landsman showed zero mortality. He did acknowledge that zero is very unlikely to be the average.
That number would go up if only multiple treble soft plastic lures were used in the capture of the fish, for example, and less than what we consider average CPR care is taken in releasing the fish. We've come a very long way since the 80's. Water temps in that study were not a factor, from what I could see.
The accepted number is in the 4 to 5% range overall, it seems. That's down from 30% in the past, but those studies were in laboratory, and Sean Landsman's was not.
I've seen estimates at 10% as well, but in talking with biologists, it seems most tend to land in the middle ground of the single numbers, which is good if we are to accept the zero stocking and somewhat low NR on many designated trophy waters in WI right now.
SO you think...hmm. 5% isn't bad at all. Just for the math's sake--Right now we have 136 people online here. If 5% took a deep hook and perished, we'd lose nearly half a dozen. Increase stress by adding extreme heat, and we'd lose a few more.
And so on.
I've killed a few over the years I watched die, even using what would be considered excellent release techniques. Deep hooked and hurt during the battle, fish that seem to just expire for almost no reason, and even one that jumped when it hit a Topper Stopper on a rock bar on the left in the narrows on the way from Sioux Narrows proper to Fire Island, and broke it's back landing on a rock.
l take the position we DO kill fish. Not 'lots', but some, and if the population of muskie anglers keeps growing as fast as it has, and new muskie waters as slow, we may have a bit of a problem on highly pressured waters when intentional harvest is added in to the equation and management using stocking to keep numbers up lessens due to budget restraints and worse.
Read everything you can on the big picture, and make your own decision. I'm off the water until it cools down, except for bluegills and bass, which I will, for the most part....'murder' and eat, and that with great anticipation in the process. |
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| To be clear, you are claiming a 5% mortality rate for immediately released fish? I'm talking about zero out of water time. |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | s,
I'm not 'claiming' anything. Read the data yourself, and make your own decisions. I made mine, justified why I believe what I do when questioned, and provided information as to where to find the info that convinced me, plus offered personal experience. Never said a thing about 100% in the water release.
Yes, I believe there will be some post capture mortality in muskies even using in water release. I described why I believe that already.
If what's been said here is not complete enough, read the vast amount of material out there and make your own decisions. That said, it never was assumed to be a zero sum game. Everyone who fishes muskies knows there will be some post CPR mortality; if you are asking only about what the average is all season long, it's what it is and all we can do is be careful in handling the fish.
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | sworrall - 7/27/2011 9:38 PM
If what's been said not complete enough, read the material out there and make your own decisions.
That is hard for many, if not most. |
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High water temps