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| Ask them to vote no and to remove the policy portion of the Environment finance bill and get our government back to work....
http://www.votervoice.net/core.aspx?APP=GAC&AID=1356&IssueID=25821&... |
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| I just did it. Thanks John for all your efforts. What happened was closed door politics at its very worst.
Tom |
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| Its over, Thanks for all the support this years everyone. |
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | So, does anyone know if the language was removed from the final bill? |
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Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes | From what I have been able to find out no changes were made to any of the bills passed in special session.
UPDATE: Just read through the bill and no changes were made in special session.
Edited by cwestly 7/20/2011 9:43 AM
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Location: WI | Any chance Dayton can veto that language. Pawlenty always seem to pick and choose if I remember correctly. |
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | It's a done deal. Dayton signed off. Sad day for MN fisheries.
Aaron |
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | Looks like time to start working on a ban darkhouse spearing campaign. It sure seems like time to stop trying to be nice or trying to compromise and just go for their throat. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm not surprised, but I am disgusted. |
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | I have already begun contacting my representatives. Partly to communicate my disgust with the legislation and how it was passed and partly to ask for help in introducing legislation in next years session to ban spearing of all game fish in MN.
It is time to return fire and go after the darkhouse association. No more being nice for me. |
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| Let's get spearing banned. Even if we aren't successful it may get them on their heels rather than on the offense. They have shown a complete unwillingness to compromise. |
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| Sad day for MN muskies and pike for sure. A big thanks to everyone that had a hand in trying to save the large pike and muskies in Cass. It has sure been alot of fun going out there and enjoying the large pike and muskies since the ban was placed.
This year we showed the legislators that we have numbers of individuals that care about the resource. Unfortunately in the end it fell on deaf ears.
A special thanks goes out to John Underhill, Shawn Kellet, Rob Kimm, Aaron Meyer, and all the muskiefirst guys. I know Underhill works day and night to protect these fish and a simple thank you doesnt seem enough.
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| Kevin Cochran - 7/20/2011 11:46 AM
A special thanks goes out to John Underhill, Shawn Kellet, Rob Kimm, Aaron Meyer, and all the muskiefirst guys. I know Underhill works day and night to protect these fish and a simple thank you doesnt seem enough.
+1 - it's an honor just to have these guys working for us, MN is proud and thankful of all the hard work these guys have put in. |
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| sad day...its only monday in the spearers week,,,,their going for something else now you can BET on that their on a roll and they AINT stopping..if you want to say were yelling "the sky is falling"look at their past record and recent past record this will eventually end up at opening up muskies for speraring |
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Exactly, Hooker. A quote I saw from them since Dayton signed off on this earlier today:
"The process of returning the lakes of Minnesota to the people who own them has begun."
Makes it very clear they aren't done. They're just beginning.
Aaron
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Location: Minnesota | Very sad day indeed... A Pandora's Box has been opened... and due to stupidity, ignorance, and selfishness, Its going to be all of us that will suffer... |
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | This is why we have to go on the attack. They will stop at nothing to take everything they can from us. So, lets turn the tables on them and let them have some of their own medicine. |
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| They are not trying to take anything away from you. They are only trying to get a little that was taken away. What makes you think there was not other groups involved. There was only 8 yes I say eight contacts made from members of the darkhouse members and over 20,000 email contacts made to get this bill thrown out. Sending the same email from 20,000 email addresses must have seemed a bit frivoulis. I have a feeling you guys are about to show your true colors and your over size egos. I sure hope it does not backfire for you again. ALL SPORTSMAN NEED TO WORK TOGETHER! |
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| Keep having your feeling of projecting empathy to the world lol Try hope next.  |
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Posts: 437
| middleman - 7/21/2011 9:22 PM
ALL SPORTSMAN NEED TO WORK TOGETHER! Perhaps this is the approach that MDAA could have taken to address their concerns? Instead they run full page ads in Outdoor News and other publications, along with backdoor politics to run their agenda.
"Taken from them"? Hardly, because of these regulations the pike fisheries in those bodies of water are very healthy. Try explaining how deregulating them, hamstringing the MN DNR will make this better. Fact is, IT WON'T!
True colors? Funny, the MDAA cards have already been dealt and their true colors have shined through. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | is there a precedent for dark-house spearers mistaking and killing a bunch a muskies?
or are the musky fishermen all-of-a-sudden becoming pike hunters?
i don't get it ... been spearing since a very young age and it's a blast and a tradition that's lasted at least on the waters we use. not unlike any species, there are good years and average years but always action. it's not very hard to tell the difference and yah, there's a lot of people who may not know, but maybe no less than the number who don't know how to handle a big fish when caught out musky fishing.
the purist will always lose to the general use when legislation is in-charge.
i love to catch and release muskies and also love to sit in a dark-house ... so much of this makes zero sense. show me all your pics of monster pike out of cass that you catch ... maybe that will help.
i don't get it and see no reason why both sides can't use the resource and it continue to produce down the line through natural and stocked management. spearing a big pike isn't as easy as you would think. |
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| Sled...i'm also one who believes that there's a middle-ground for things to co-exist, and i think the spearing tradition in MN is worth preserving. there was even a time when i was called "dangerous" by some muskie purists for daring to suggest such a crazy idea. ha! that said, there was already plenty of opportunity for spearing pike in MN. this is just a case of competing special interests, and the "wrong" side won this round through politics instead of science. yes, every spring there are reports and pictures of trophy-size muskies that were "released" under the ice with a line of spear holes across their backs. it's even worse when this is occuring in brood-stock lakes. it seems entirely reasonable (and supported by MN-DNR biologists) to have spearing bans in place on certain muskie lakes, especially those like Cass which are entirely self-sustaining. spearing also does impact pike size structure for pike. the research has been done that shows it. therefore protecting pike on some lakes from spearing is also worthwhile for developing trophy pike. Recreational Darkhouse Spearing for Northern Pike in Minnesota: Historical Changes in Effort and Harvest and Comparisons with Angling. Conflicts between spearers and anglers have led to questions about relative harvests by each group and their effects on northern pike populations. Creel survey data since 1980 show that summer and winter angling account for most of the northern pike harvest. Spearing accounted for 15% of the average yield of northern pike by number, but spearing is selective for the larger fish. In comparison with population estimates, spearing removes a small proportion of the total population and biomass of northern pike but an increasing proportion of fish with increasing size. Recreational angling, by comparison, removes an even greater proportion of all fish sizes in a population.
Edited by lambeau 7/22/2011 9:24 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'that said, there was already plenty of opportunity for spearing pike in MN. this is just a case of competing special interests, and the "wrong" side won this round through politics instead of science.'
That's what is offensive to me.
Politicians running the fisheries programs, under pressure from SI groups...even ours...is inmates running the asylum. Bad idea. |
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| Sled,
For me it isnt about a spearer's right to spear at all or the concern over spearing muskies, really, though that may be an issue.
What it is for me is the fact that the MN DNR has done an excellent job improving the fisheries by instituting slot limits on Pike to get more desirable sizes and reduce the hammerhandles.
This is working VERY well with some real nice fish in the lakes where they limits are imposed.
What MDAA has done now is pushed for spearing and limit the capacity the MN DNR has on managing these lakes. Taking that authority away from them, the EXPERTS and given it to legislators.
I have no problem with spearing in general, but I have a major problem with how this whole thing came about and what it now means for the MN DNR and the lakes impacted. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | that makes sense to me Captain and so does some of the stuff Mike posts ... protection from broodstock lakes as an example. but, if you protect broodstock lakes from spearing, why not from angling too?? having cake with the ability to eat it and pointing at the pot while standing in the kettle has been a dismal approach and i'm not at all surprised to the outcome. disappointment on this subject should not be a surprise.
law-makers driving a fishery ... where have i heard that before??? yah, totally agree that's a terrible precedent and one to be up in arms about.
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| I think it is crucial to push for a crazy slot limit like 26-44 must be released. By doing this it will limit if not eliminate spearing of pike on the Cass lake chain. There are ways to put a hurting to the spearing community, and the DNR is who gets to make the decisions on what lakes get the protected slots not the govt!
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | I was a Northern Pike fisherman long before I ever fished for Muskies. I started fishing for Northern Pike in 1968 when I was 5 years old (1968) and have caught many large Pike in my lifetime. Northern Pike were my first love as I didn't start fishing Muskies until 1985. And Muskie fishing does not affect my opinion of Northern Pike at all.
I consider Northern Pike to be a game fish just like Walleyes, Bass and Muskies. And, as a game fish, I believe they should all be treated in a similar manner. I believe Pike should not be speared at any time of the year.
I believe all this "tradiiton" talk is nonsense. Just because something is considered a "tradition" by some does not make it right. Killing every Muskie was also a "tradition" at one time also. The term tadition has been used to justify many wrongs in the past. Such things as slavery, women not being able to vote, and even wars were all justified by "tradition". Sorry, but "tradition" means nothing to me.
I saw dark house spearing first-hand 40 years ago and considered it barbaric then and still do. I believe that dark house spearing should be banned. And my experience indicates that many other people in MN feel the same way.
We will see what the legisature decides on this issue in future sessions. But rest assured one thing, dark house spearing will come under attack like never before. And at some time in the future, it will be banned. It might not be next year or the year after, but it will be banned.
Edited by Herb_b 7/22/2011 10:10 AM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 7/22/2011 10:02 AM
There are ways to put a hurting to the spearing community
... and with this logo on your forehead you've accomplished what with your efforts?? |
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What we need it to push for legislation the will not allow the gov. to play with fisheries willy nilly.
More power and oversight needs to be in the hands of the DNR.
That should be our goal for the benefit of all MN fisheries.
Not this playgound battle with the spearers.
JS |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | fish = meat ... to many of the general use public. you guys make it out that these guys are out spearing 45-50 inchers at-will! and then wasting them ... holy crap.
barbaric to harvest your own meat by gun, hook and line, arrow or spear?? why?
reminds me of the person who protests the production of animals for the purpose of meat stating matter-of-factly "that's barbaric, i get my meat from the grocery store" ... |
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| sticking the tines to a sub-legal 45" muskie and then pushing it under the ice is not harvest, Sled. it's killing and wanton waste. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | lambeau - 7/22/2011 11:38 AM
sticking the tines to a sub-legal 45" muskie and then pushing it under the ice is not harvest, Sled. it's killing and wanton waste. Â
again, i ask the question ... is there documentation of this being an out-of-control situation and severely depleting the stocking efforts? and if-so where because although i've heard it (presented like you just did) by conjecture.
i've also known musky guides/junkies that hang live pike from the cleats of their boats and treating them less than pleasantly when catching them incidently.
so, is this a topic of who "thinks" the other is worse? or what?? who is the tallest midget in this argument???
Edited by jonnysled 7/22/2011 12:11 PM
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | sled,
Explain to me the logic that it is illegal to spear a Northern Pike in open water in the middle of November. Getting caught doing so can get one a hefty fine. But, add a couple of inches of ice and suddenly its OK. How do you explain or defend that?
And why can you spear a Northern and not a Walleye? One can keep six Walleyes when angling and only three Northerns. And yet one can spear a Northern when there is ice, but not a Walleye. They are both game fish. How can you defend that?
I believe that spearing any game fish is barbaric because, by being "game fish", they are considered more "valuable" than rough fish such as carp. By "game" fish, they simply deserve better treatment.
I have fished and hunted all my life (since I was 5 anyway). I have shot many deer and caught and cleaned more than a few Northern Pike. I see nothing wrong with keeping a few Northerns for a meal. But I do see a problem with spearing game fish of any type. Game fish deserve fair play and should not be killed just because they happen to wander under a hole in the ice where someone is sitting with a spear. And I don't care if it is Walleyes, Muskies, or Northern Pike, they should all be treated with the same protection 12 months of the year.
My opinion.
Edited by Herb_b 7/22/2011 12:37 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Herb_b - 7/22/2011 12:35 PM
sled,
Explain to me the logic that it is illegal to spear a Northern Pike in open water in the middle of November. Getting caught doing so can get one a hefty fine. But, add a couple of inches of ice and suddenly its OK. How do you explain or defend that?
And why can you spear a Northern and not a Walleye? One can keep six Walleyes when angling and only three Northerns. And yet one can spear a Northern when there is ice, but not a Walleye. They are both game fish. How can you defend that?
I believe that spearing any game fish is barbaric because, by being "game fish", they are considered more "valuable" than rough fish such as carp. By "game" fish, they simply deserve better treatment.
I have fished and hunted all my life (since I was 5 anyway). I have shot many deer and caught and cleaned more than a few Northern Pike. I see nothing wrong with keeping a few Northerns for a meal. But I do see a problem with spearing game fish of any type. Game fish deserve fair play and should not be killed just because they happen to wander under a hole in the ice where someone is sitting with a spear. And I don't care if it is Walleyes, Muskies, or Northern Pike, they should all be treated with the same protection 12 months of the year.
My opinion.
1. try open-water spearing and let me know how you do Herb
2. try coaxing a walleye to a decoy Herb
3. 3 vs. 6 = ask your dnr fisheries biologist that's managing the biomass Herb
4. filet knife vs. spear = what was your question Herb? do fish have a soul or something i'm missing?
5. "I see nothing wrong with keeping a few Northerns for a meal. But I do see a problem with spearing game fish of any type" ... Huh?? Herb
6. "Game fish deserve fair play and should not be killed just because they happen to wander under a hole in the ice where someone is sitting with a spear" ... what do you do when that 12-pointer with the 20" inside spread wanders underneath your tree-stand Herb?
any more questions for me? |
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Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | I'm just extremely disappointed at HOW this has been passed. Public input shot this thing down twice, both a republican and a democrat governor heard a loud enough voice to veto it two years in a row. What a shady way to get your way. Throw it onto a bill somewhere in the back that which the public cannot voice an opinion on this time. How easy was it to just hide this in there? This is like a boxer that loses a fight to the same guy twice, but then somehow gets a 3rd fight and wins because the judges are paid off.
What a bad manner to do business in. The name of the person that re-reintroduced this in an attempt to push this through should be made known. I'd like to know what they like to be bought off with next year to put the ban back on. |
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| jonnysled - 7/22/2011 12:42 PM
what do you do when that 12-pointer with the 20" inside spread wanders underneath your tree-stand Herb?
I usually crap my pants thus making any chance at bagging the animal pretty much impossible. |
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| Is no one going to mention how peeed off they are,that our government was shut down. No compromise,no giving ground! And the first day the politicians are together, THIS is what they secretly pass!!?? This is what is SOO important that it had to be pushed through as part of a f#%^*!g deal!!
I am peeed! That is why I brought this to the attention of the media. CARE 11 seemed interested in the ridiculousness of this. We will have to see if Ingbretsen (sp?) and Carlson feel any heat come re election time.
Kevin, I think that you mentioned a list of resort owners on Cass at our last meeting? I would love to get that list so I can email all of them. I would like them to know that,because of their representatives my family and I will no longer be staying at Cass. We go 7-10 times a year.
Of course, I will cc their representatives as well.
There are 10,000 lakes in this state. Only 120 something have Muskies. The rest are open to spearing.
Hopefully MI will take Cass off the list of lakes open to fish in the international .
Joe |
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| JMO here, and maybe its going to sound a tad vengeful, but its somewhat relieving that there's all this drama finally emerging out of MN. Gets a little sickening/frustrating when you read magazines and internet articles for darn near a decade constantly reminding you how terrible your state is at growing big fish, releasing them, spearing fish, stocking the best strains, etc. I don't wish this (or that) on anyone, and I know alot of folks are passionate and frustrated, but the fact that this has gone around... and is now coming around, is kinda funny. Enjoy the limelight, MN. It gets hot up on stage. |
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| "Sled...i'm also one who believes that there's a middle-ground for things to co-exist" Mike
So let's add options #1 and #B to this perfectly reasonable observation..
OPTION #1:
Given the situation, think about this.....
1) Spearers are almost totally locals. People who already live there who are killing the best of what the waters have to offer. These folks bring no new dollars to yer town.
2) Fishermen (and women) who are NOT locals. We bring in money, and lots of it, per my last bar bill. Anyway, we fish and release for others who follow and spend yet more money.
Inform the owners of the local bars and motels and bait shops of yer concerns. Ask them to pass the concerns to local legislators and PUSH the good guy up the creek.
OPTION #B:
Give up. There's alreay too many people chasing the fish of my dreams. And frankly, I've become bored with chasing muskies. Let's allow the muskie fishery go to hell such that I'm back to almost never seeing yet alone hooking a big muskie. That would be ok, for a generation or five. I can handle evolution.
There, two choices, take a pick. |
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| "Politicians running the fisheries programs, under pressure from SI groups...even ours...is inmates running the asylum. Bad idea." - Steve
Look around brother, that is the current situation. The monkeys behind the glass, the one throwing $hit from their arses?, are in charge. And we're paying them to thow $hit and dress very, very well. How did we ever get here? We got here because the average American is a total dumb-$hit.
A nation of idiots; teenagers drunk and playing with bottle rockets.
Folks get what they deserve. |
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| Joe,
The last time I posted the list online I had two letters to the editor written about me and also they had a meeting talking about it. They brought up the idea of taking out a front page ad out in the Bemidji Pioneer slandering me. The list is out there and maybe someone else can post it in this thread.
Sled,
Studies and pictures are out there. Studies referring to the destruction of hammer handle pike due to over harvesting the large ones, and lake specific (Bemidji) spearing data are two that are sticking out in my mind. Lake Bemidji study 52% of all pike taken were taken by spear by 4% of the angling hours that entire year. In a ten year span the average pike size went from 4.6lbs to 1.8lbs. I am pretty sure on the numbers that I listed but would have to look on my other computer to be certain. Just got off the water and kinda tired.
You want pictures...I got them. Also John Underhill has all of them and maybe some more. I catch speared muskies EVERY year on the area lakes that I fish. These are the ones that are lucky enough to survive. There are two hotbeds in the state that speared muskies surface more than anywhere else (Miltona and Bemidji). With Cass being opened up muskies will be intentionally speared. I attended a CLIFS (Cass Lake Initiative for Spearing) meeting where they openly talked about intentionally spearing muskies after the ban was placed on Cass.
Could there be a middle ground? No. The Darkhouse is against slot limits, catch and release on muskies, higher fines for speared muskies, and any regulations put in place by the MN DNR to protect large pike/muskies.
The MN Muskie and Pike Alliance wanted to work with the Darkhouse on this specific case. Our main goal was to protect the large pike and muskies in Cass. Spearing on Cass is not the biggest issue here. Harvesting the largest pike is the issue. Large pike are vulnerable under the ice and without some type of slot protection the big fish will fall.
If you have any questions regarding this issue you can call or email. Gotta get a few hours of sleep 4:30am is right around the corner.
Thanks,
Kevin |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm sure your claims have merit ... it's different than the people i know who enjoy the sport but not unlike some on the other side of the argument who do similar negative things to make the name worse than it should be. sounds like pocket politics is the way of the future in Minnesota, so turnabout is fair play i guess if you have enough money and know the right back door to go into. You could always implement a Conservation Congress and have annual votes (ok, that was a joke ... but a fair one based on how Wisconsin has been treated by our own and what Ranger calls "fishermen who are not locals").
how about the guys who exploit brood-stock lakes on the musky side of the equation? has that come into the discussion during these debates?
also, what is considered a "trophy" pike on Cass? ... 45-50? or 35-40?
i've always considered Saskatchewan to be the location of Trophy Pike ...
every time you politic and sensationalize regulation, restriction or banning you're sending a message to people who love to do that sort of thing. i hope we don't end up running ourselves off of our own water and out of our own woods by the time it's all over ... |
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| jonnysled - 7/24/2011 8:26 AM
i'm sure your claims have merit ... it's different than the people i know who enjoy the sport but not unlike some on the other side of the argument who do similar negative things to make the name worse than it should be. sounds like pocket politics is the way of the future in Minnesota, so turnabout is fair play i guess if you have enough money and know the right back door to go into. You could always implement a Conservation Congress and have annual votes (ok, that was a joke ... but a fair one based on how Wisconsin has been treated by our own and what Ranger calls "fishermen who are not locals").
how about the guys who exploit brood-stock lakes on the musky side of the equation? has that come into the discussion during these debates?
also, what is considered a "trophy" pike on Cass? ... 45-50? or 35-40?
i've always considered Saskatchewan to be the location of Trophy Pike ...
every time you politic and sensationalize regulation, restriction or banning you're sending a message to people who love to do that sort of thing. i hope we don't end up running ourselves off of our own water and out of our own woods by the time it's all over ...
Not sure how guys that fish brood lakes comes into this conversation. If you are implying that this is something that I do you are mistaken. I have fished three brood lakes this year for a total of 8 times.
A trophy pike in Minnesota IMO would be a 35-40. It is not Saskatchewan but pike can grow big in MN when protected. Put a young kid on a 40in pike and see what happens. Can you get the same effect from ten 2lb pike probably not.
Regulations are put into effect by the DNR after they seek input from the public. People in MN are not happy with the pike fishing and want to be able to catch bigger fish.
So what do you do when .8 of 1% of all anglers, MN Darkhouse, want less regulation regarding pike and the ability to take large pike? Do you accomodate the vast majority of anglers in the state or do you bow down to the 14,000 spearers resulting in more hammer-handle factories? Kinda seems like a no-brainer to me. I am sure your friends, the ones that just enjoy the sport, only take the small pike so there is really nothing to worry about.
Kevin Cochran |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i implied nothing ... the implication is that when one special interest wants to force another special interest group of sportsmen either out of their sport altogether or force limits to stay off of selected lakes then expect the same to be asked on behalf of your own interests. you know, the glass house corellary.
35 - 40" pike are sure fun to catch but not trophies by most definitions. i thought you were proposing the protection of trophies? ... now i understand more about why your new pike protection argument isn't getting any traction. is there commentary from fisheries biologists that show the maximum growth rates for pike given the biomass and introduction of other predators to the system? i'd imagine there is a limit and that a 45 + (true trophy) would be a freak out of a Northern Midwestern U.S. lake where they have to share space with muskies.
slots for anglers and especially ice-fishermen are something that makes complete sense and i still have no idea how or why they aren't more popular in the northern states but kicking a group of sportsmen out of their sport to suit you is going to be a tough one.
when will the pike-hunter magazines, pikefirst t-shirts, coffee mugs, hats, outings and auctions get started?? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | the shawano lake hammerhandle factory would be an interesting one to study ... you couldn't find a decent pike if you wanted to. add a higher level predator (muskies) and whammo, big muskies and big pike!!! big (35-40") not trophies ... but a nice change.
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| "1. try open-water spearing and let me know how you do Herb"
During the turn of the century they filled wagons full of open water speared Pike to haul all over the state to sell.
Every year I get photos of Muskies speared, In the 1980's the Muskies on Cass were in trouble and the Pike were in worse shape; The ban is the only thing different on Cass than the other comparable lakes in the area and its also the only lake of its kind with its popularity that stocks Zero fish.
Pike have a huge factor in the quality of the entire fishery. All fish in the system.
Creel surveys show spearing harvests an average of 15% of all Pike summer and winter harvest combined; some waters as much as 51% of the total number of Pike as well as 51% of the total pounds harvested.
Is it too much to ask 1% of the stakeholders that take 10 to 50% of the harvest depending on the water to follow rules? the answer is yes.
Edited by Muskiefool 7/24/2011 4:53 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Muskiefool - 7/24/2011 4:48 PM
"1. try open-water spearing and let me know how you do Herb"
During the turn of the century they filled wagons full of open water speared Pike to haul all over the state to sell.
Every year I get photos of Muskies speared, In the 1980's the Muskies on Cass were in trouble and the Pike were in worse shape; The ban is the only thing different on Cass than the other comparable lakes in the area and its also the only lake of its kind with its popularity that stocks Zero fish.
Pike have a huge factor in the quality of the entire fishery. All fish in the system.
Creel surveys show spearing harvests an average of 15% of all Pike summer and winter harvest combined; some waters as much as 51% of the total number of Pike as well as 51% of the total pounds harvested.
Is it too much to ask 1% of the stakeholders that take 10 to 50% of the harvest depending on the water to follow rules? the answer is yes.
- during the turn of the century ... ok
- again, asking one group for a ban using your argument, be prepared to hold your own with appropriate bans of your own waters where fish are killed by direct and delayed mortality for a wide number of reasons. i could use your turn of the century argument to say that musky fishermen are your own worst enemy and a whole lot bigger threat than the darkhouse pike spearers.
- creel surveys are done to establish harvest limits correct? so, that being said, with harvest limits set ... who cares what % one group is to the next? what point does that make?
- spearers who follow the rules follow the rules ... anyone who breaks them (hook and line, spearers, ice fisherman) have penalties that are held up by law too
what is "wrong" with legal harvest of a managed and renuable resource?? in this case naturally spawning pike managed by creel with limits set and penalties for poaching (limits and other species). note that nowhere here did i say musky.
i understand your argument for people breaking the law by spearing muskies and then the move of this being back-room politics. if you keep it focused on those two wrongs i'd say you'll get support from a broader range of people, but playing the all or nothing and the trophy pike card waters down your position.
it's a shame Greenpeace is so busy in International Waters when they are needed to control the barbaric harvest here in the Midwest.
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Sled you sure seem to know a lot about what goes on in MN for not living here.
Over a decade ago the DNR started using special regulations to see if they could change lakes with large numbers of small pike into lakes with a more balanced population. The important thing was to get a healthier balance of pike, but the end result is also more trophy size fish (IMO MN trophy pike are 40"+, not uncommon Red, Leech, Mille Lacs, Vermillion, Basswood, Cass, Winne). So I guess you could say managing for trophies in regards to pike is also managing for a more balanced population. 2 Birds for one stone.
The DNR took public input and had muskie and pike anlgers help come up with plans and choose lakes to try this on. The result in a nutshell is that the lakes have responded very well in as little as ten years.
The idea that this is just a spearer vs. muskie angler conflict is unfortunate, but undrerstandable when you read the juvenille comments made by both camps on the internet.
The fact of the matter is that the MN public pushed for better pike fishing in MN in the 90's. With public input hearings that happened.
There are many muskie anglers who have been inovolved in the pike changes, and they are not jumping on the bandwagon now regarding this issue.
Cass lake is considered a trophy pike lake. 40" + fish are caught there every summer.
The pike population has changed since the spearing ban took place. The avg. size increased and population shifted from more smaller fish to a better balance of large and small pike.
MNDNR develop bag and size regs based on the impact of #'s of fish killed. This is done with all game fish. On certain lakes special regs are needed, be it walleye, panfish or pike to keep populations in balance.
Adding spearing to Cass would increase # of killed pike. The DNR wanted to implement a special reg to help lessen the impact of adding pressure to pike.
The MDHA would not accept lifting the ban with any new reg. They claim the regs don't work and that they don't want to kill big pike anyway. Which makes no sense, if they don't want to kill big pike then special regs shouldn't matter to them. They also have all the data open to them on the success of the special regs but think that it's made up lies. There is no dealing or compromising with them anymore, which is a lose lose for all of MN.
This issue is about pike, but unfortunately has become a playground gang battle.
As a muskie fishermen I don't care if Cass opens up to spearing, if they put regs on to lessen the increased pressure on Pike.
Anyway sled, this is a pike issue on Cass, and now all over MN if they lessen the number of pike lakes with special regs. Many of the muskie guys out there have been working on pike population changes since the mid 90's. So the idea that all of us are all of the sudden concerned with pike is false.
I just wish people would stop the stupid statements about "sticking it to the spearers", and now we are going to "fight fire with fire" that I see on several different forums now.
What we really need to be cocnerned about is getting more control to the DNR so this crap can't happen anymore.
JS
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Location: minocqua, wi. |
we have a small home/cabin in Minocqua, Wisconsin and our residence home in New Prague, MN. ... we both grew up on water ... for me it wa Cedar Lake in Scott County, MN. and have fished and speared there for many years. I'm engaged to a woman there and we spend split time between both places based on kids' needs and pay taxes in both Minnesota and Wisconsin. She has a MN. drivers license and i have a WI. drivers license and we enjoy multi-species spring, summer, fall and winter past-times from the history of both of our families including on the water and on the ice. We're conservationists who harvest and follow the laws but don't go to extremes either way when we see people who do other than us within the law. Both of us buy hunting and fishing licenses in both states and Canada spending even more time in Montreal it seems than in the States.
and just like with our government we protect our rights when others (gov't or special interest) try to take our rights away from us and come in and tell us how to live our lives.
thanks for your concern JS
you guys have mucked this one up so bad you'll never get support.
Edited by jonnysled 7/24/2011 8:24 PM
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My bad sled, I thought were purely an out of stater, which isn't meant in a bad way, most people who don't live here wouldn't know the history of this development.
Anyway, my main point was this is a pike issue for many of us, and not just a new thing.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 7/24/2011 8:20 PM
My bad sled, I thought were purely an out of stater, which isn't meant in a bad way, most people who don't live here wouldn't know the history of this development.
Anyway, my main point was this is a pike issue for many of us, and not just a new thing.
JS
sucks when that stuff leaks out doesn't it ... comes out so easily somebody might take it for your true honest feelings.
out-of-staters ... lol ... indeed |
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Well for an in-stater you are kind of mis-informed.
Shouldn't be to hard to see how I could have made that mistake.
As far as true feelings, guess you'll never know, but you can have fun pretending.
JS |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm still tryin' to understand how a 40" pike is considered a trophy??? but, it you say you're on a pike agenda and have been since the 90's ... why wait til now to inform everyone. you have no trouble on everything else?? i see the alliance has recruited 49 members ... is that since the early 90's too?? please inform us ...
you really want big pike in Cass ... take away their competition.
mis-informed my a$$ ... |
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Location: Bemidji, Lake Vermilion | Hey JS, your input is appreciated. Its a pike issue. Most guys I know are not "muskie guys" but "esox guys" who appreciate both.
Sled - no reason to remove the "competition" for pike in Cass as they have coexisted naturally with muskies for what is likely thousands of years.
This is really a lot more about cry baby syndrome and poor government in action, protecting large pike (take all you want up to 26 to 28 to maybe even 30in, let the rest grow), and handcuffing the MN DNR who, like them or not for whatever reasons you want, have done a pretty darn good job with MN fisheries for all species. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | thrax_johnson - 7/24/2011 9:56 PM
Hey JS, your input is appreciated. Its a pike issue. Most guys I know are not "muskie guys" but "esox guys" who appreciate both.
Sled - no reason to remove the "competition" for pike in Cass as they have coexisted naturally with muskies for what is likely thousands of years.
This is really a lot more about cry baby syndrome and poor government in action, protecting large pike (take all you want up to 26 to 28 to maybe even 30in, let the rest grow), and handcuffing the MN DNR who, like them or not for whatever reasons you want, have done a pretty darn good job with MN fisheries for all species.
Halleluyah!!
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Well Sled when you make statements about how it's only an issue now, and comment on how muskie guys are all of the sudden pike guys than you are misinformed.
Sorry to break it to you, but lots of folks who fish muskies have been active in fisheries issues of all sorts for a long, long time, and don't only fish or care about muskies.
Pike management has been an issue since the early 90's. It's being sensationalized now by the actions the MNDHA have taken.
JS
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i was responding to Kevin Cochran ...
doubt he was working on the Minnesota Pike thing in the 90's but i may be mis-informed.
i believe it was you who coined it a "Pike Issue" ... i was being led to believe it was an incedental Musky Spearing Issue which should be covered by the law. maybe time to get with the other 48 guys and come up with a consistent story before taking it out to the boards??
your anti's sound disjointed |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | jonnysled - 7/24/2011 7:44 PM
you really want big pike in Cass ... take away their competition.
No need in my book.
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| Nice Hyena-Musky!! That aint no 35-40"er! You should show Cochran your spots! |
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| it's unhelpful to exaggerate. no one started out proposing "pushing others out of their sport", Sled...in fact, the leaders in this effort on the angling side bent over backwards trying to find a compromise that everyone could live with, only to repeatedly be burned and scammed. on the other hand the rhetoric that suggests spearing on Cass will ruin the muskies fishing is simply untrue, though it will kill some muskies and it will affect the pike size structure as the numbers from Bemidji demonstrate. keep in mind that the spearing ban on Cass and other lakes allowed for the pursuit of trophy muskie/pike angling on a certain few lakes and also still accomodated spearing on many many many other lakes. it's only been recently when those attempts to compromise failed and the other side has consistently shown a preference for pursuing win-lose outcomes, that thoughts have turned to using similar win-lose responses. personally, i think there's room for spearing and protected trophy angling to co-exist, but i completely understand the reasons for wanting to switch to more of a scorched-earth approach. there are risks and potential consequences, but i get where it's coming from. imho, the leadership of the spearing advocacy groups is betraying the "silent majority" of the sport with an extremist all-or-nothing agenda...and sadly it may lead to the demise of the sport when the much larger angling interest groups get sufficiently activated to respond in kind.
Edited by lambeau 7/25/2011 10:49 AM
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It's been over 10 years since I was a co-chair of the MMA, now the MMPA.
I'm not speaking for any of them or even know what they are planning to do.
Merely trying to explain the history of pike management in MN and how it started.
The muskie anglers in MN didn't get riled up until the "lift the ban on Cass" movement started. Unfortunately that took the wind out of the sails regarding pike management and shifted the focus to muskie anglers vs. spearers
JS
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Posts: 100
Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | Some of you remember this. To actually portrait this to the public was pretty desperate. How do you deal with this kind of thinking?
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This is a classic example of politics defeating 'form and function' using back door legislation to get it done. The MDAA executed an effective PR campaign,pocketed a few politicians in the process, and what MN has now is the result. The original ban was acquired in pretty much the same manner, but without all the falderal and with the support of the DNR fisheries folks. Shows what a power shift move to gain public support can do, and hang the 'facts'.The average guy can't figure it all out anyway and hard reality is most folks could care less either way.
If one pushes one's chair back, and opens up one's eyes completely, it's easy to see manipulative behavior on both sides of the issue. It's EXTREMELY effective and helpful to exaggerate, as it's rule one in a political conflict (and war) to immediately and JUST within the AVERAGE person's ability to discern between total bull and reality-- demonize your opponent, then work at the center out to the edges of the issue if that campaign doesn't backfire. If it does, do it again, only more believable
That isn't 'scorched earth', that's standard politics as usual.
Two responses are effective, and one needs to ally oneself with an organization to take charge of executing one or the other, because two identities or more are necessary to execute. The truth is a powerful weapon if, as Ben Kenobi said, one is successful at changing perception with the presentation and your 'version' of the truth wins the day. Attack ads and published statements take a close second or should be considered first, depending on YOUR perceptions. That presentation should dovetail the presentation of 'the truth', supplement it, and create severe doubt for any average guy that your opponent is fighting fair and deserves any support at all, while offering an alternative that is believable, seems responsible, and is something one can hang on to as 'truth' once removed forcibly from 'the other side'..
Then hit 'em again with the 'truth'. And again. And again.
That's why it's so hard to separate special interest money and politicians.
Both sides have misrepresented the 'facts', sensationalizing their opponents position. One side just did it better.
I think the viewpoint presented that shows this clearly might be a good place to start to find what an acceptable 'truth' might be. (That was essentially Sled's argument...read it in the context you see here, maybe, that it's easy to demonize, be careful what you wish for as you may just get it...)
And you still might lose.
Fisheries management belongs in the hands of the fisheries professionals, and both sides are guilty of manipulating that process changing 'public perception' using a virtual Mickey Mantle Louisville Slugger. |
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Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | ...Wow. What the heck?! First of all, does that mean there are 3,500 stocked musky lakes in this state? That's a lot of Lake X's!!! |
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Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | The ad really didnt do any good in my opinion except make the spearing faction look bad. A person that doesn't even fish can see the attempted manipulation at work. Makes them look desperate.
Steve W is correct all the way. Deceit is an effect tool for those willing to use it. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | It's a sad thing, for sure, but let's be honest. Spearing pike has been a tradition for far longer than muskie fishing in Minnesota. Most of the many great muskie lakes in Minnesota didn't even hit the radar until the early 2000's. Did the MDAA play dirty pool aka general politics to get the deal signed? Absolutely. But I wonder if there couldn't have been a different approach from muskie anglers?
I don't know everything about Bob Strand. I only fish MN lakes maybe 5 times a year, so I don't have a 100% accurate portrayal of all the "pressure" these lakes get. Those are my disclaimers. But let's call a spade a spade. I have never seen a larger group of elitists than the Minnesota muskie fishermen. You beg us to sign your petition to get lakes stocked at the Expo, and then trash out-of staters in the same breath. You trash Wisconsin fisheries in general. You trash Illinois and Iowa and claim to be better than Canada. You trash spearfishermen. You trash walleye fishermen...even though that's what a large percentage of you were...and then you want their support.
Try eating a slice of humble pie once and appreciate what you have. In many respects, Wisconsin didn't. And we've been paying the price for years.
Edit: This is not all Minnesota guys. I've fished with and befriended many over the years. Some truly great people in Minnesota.
Edited by Moltisanti 7/25/2011 4:15 PM
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| I really dont belive 'heritage/tradition' enters into it,,Pick up an American history book and how much history revolves around Buffalo hunting..buffalo camps became towns that became cities but how many western states allow buffalo hunting or restricted buffalo today because the resource cant take it.
Edited by happy hooker 7/25/2011 4:21 PM
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | Sled,
You are right in that spearing and hunting are similar. You are right that there is no "release" in spearing and it is indeed a pure "kill" sport much like hunting. But fishling is much different. One can catch the same fish many times, but one cannot shoot a deer or spear a fish more than once.
For your information, I have shot over 60 deer in my life and also have caught more than a hundred Northern Pike over 40 inches. (I think a 40 inch Pike is a trophy.) The big difference is every one of those big Northerns were released alive while every deer died. In fact, I have never killed a trophy fish of any species. (I've also caught many trophy class Walleyes and Bass). Hunting and fishing are simply apples and oranges. But hunting and spearing are alike. You are correct there.
Sorry, but your argument makes the case for banning spearing altogther. The fact that spearing is a pure "kill" sport does not help its cause in any way, shape or form.
I think you need much better arguments. Your "spearing is a tradition" and "hunting and spearing are alike" arguments are not so good. |
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Saying spearing should be banned because you kill the fish doesnt' make any more sense than to say hunting should be banned because you kill animals.
Seriously, that is ridiculous.
The method of killing is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how a pike dies, it isn't more noble to angle one for the pan than to spear one.
Managing pike means having size limits, not just bag limits. This is where spearers get testy. The ones that are pushing want no regs in regards to spearing. They want no slots, or to be exempt from them if they spear.
I have no problem with spearing, but if you can't kill a 30" pike with a hook and line than you shouldn't be able to kill it with a spear either.
We all have the opportunity to choose how we bag our fish; angle, spear, tip-up etc.
There is no discrimination with size limits. There are areas in MN where you can't use motors, drive ATVs, can only bow-hunt or can only use single hooks. These rules apply to us all, and we can all choose where and how we fish under the same laws.
This notion that spearer are being discriminated against is false, and people need to stop caving into that idea.
There are also people that need to stop sitting on a high horse and calling for a ban on spearing while they continue to fish with other methods that also kill fish.
JS |
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| happy hooker - 7/25/2011 4:17 PM
I really dont belive 'heritage/tradition' enters into it,,Pick up an American history book and how much history revolves around Buffalo hunting..buffalo camps became towns that became cities but how many western states allow buffalo hunting or restricted buffalo today because the resource cant take it.
You could start buffalo hatcheries...LOL |
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| no. no matter how effective it is, the ends does not justify the means. integrity matters. |
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| I love the Argument that Spearing Pike has been around for so long so lets continue to cater to it thats bull@#$%! The truth of the matter is that Muskie fishing is on the rise across the country because of proper lake management. Something this spearing community could really care less about! Its just like if you have a refuge with giant bucks in it, they are in there because they don't get killed by horn hunters! Open that refuge up to the public for hunting a few years and guess what the BIG BUCKS ARE GONE! Same is true about giant pike. Its the same group of greedy individuals that want to be able to brag about that giant "usually 13-20lb" pike they speared. It literally has nothing to do with revenue generated for a community! ITS STRAIGHT UP GREED! I will be contacting the DNR and legislators and the governors office to get this law reversed or to try and adopt special legislation in years to come for the implementation of very strice slots.. Like the 26-44" slot... As a group we have alot of power when it comes to this stuff. There are many many more muskie anglers then pike spearers so lets work together and keep these lakes true trophy caliber lakes.. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/integrity/
That's why politicians since Abe have been anointed by the general public through proxy with plausible deniability.
Integrity doesn't always equate with morality, decency. and fair play. See especially the section on Moral Purpose.
And, the term is redefined as mores are.
Amazing.
And see discussion number 8. Integrity in relation to Social and Political Conditions.
The truly effective politicians who have redefined (improved?) the human condition over our history as the United States of America did what it took to get the job done. Integrity, as defined in your condition of ends not justifying means, is a highly subjective term.
THAT horse is a long way from the ground.
Then see number 8 in the discussion.
Interesting. As we strive for integrity, all we believe is right can be lost forever.
In politics and war, there is always a crapload of collateral damage.
Ben Kenobi lives.
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| Integrity doesn't always equate with morality, decency. and fair play....Integrity, as defined in your condition of ends not justifying means, is a highly subjective. THAT horse is a long way from the ground. of course it's subjective.
using deceit to get what you want doesn't mean you win. it means you've become a liar. you can dress it up pretty and call it "politics" but it still smells like #*#* to me. and once you take that step, the next step and the one after are soooo much easier until one day you find yourself writing "A Million Little Pieces" and justifying it as a matter of moral relativism.
finding a way to influence others to your point of view without deception is possible, and honorable. for some of us that still matters, and it doesn't preclude taking aggressive steps.
the leaders of the MN Muskie/Pike Alliance and other leading angling advocates attempted to work with politicians, the DNR, and the MDAA to find some compromise. they did so earnestly and honestly while the MDAA lied to them and lied to the public to get their way at any cost. when people discover they've been deceived, the push-back is often fierce. i hope they continue their efforts in an honest way, and i believe it will eventually change this outcome. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | interesting discussion while i was traveling around the globe ... a couple thoughts:
sworrall = spot-on .... we are well on our way to begging someone to regulate ourselves out of a sport
moltisanti = eloquent and to the point (wish i could be as accurate) ... absolutely fantastic assesment of the situation
herbb - did you catch all thos pike on cj spinners? you're my hero man!!!! i just giggle through the rest ...
lambo = indeed the tallest midget in any argument ... is the thesaurus and app? or do you have it built into your pc?
skarie - did you just do a 180? ... holy crap, keep a postion, you flip-flop so much you look like me watchin' a packer vs. viking game ... the last name is fitting :0)
au revoir boys and girls ... have a great sleep.
edit:
- oops, nobody answered me about how come there's only 49 members of the minnesota musky and pike alliance since it's been so active since the early 90's??
Edited by jonnysled 7/25/2011 8:41 PM
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| alot of the musky clubs and groups belonging to the MMPA hold only one membership spot, sled. you are a piece of work. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 7/25/2011 8:52 PM
alot of the musky clubs and groups belonging to the MMPA hold only one membership spot, sled. you are a piece of work.
thanks ... that website gets a lot of traffice eh?? ... it's hard to keep up!
they once had 27 users online at the same friggin' time!!!!!!!
Edited by jonnysled 7/25/2011 8:58 PM
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| Moltisanti-
You know I love you, but to call MN muskie anglers elitist is a little far fetched. I know you aren't referring to me, but just because there are is a small group of outspoken members in the muskie community who portray "elitism", doesn't mean that is how the majority feels or acts.
I have never been spearing, that is my disclaimer. Many believe that Spearing is "cheating", and many spearers argue the talent it takes to be successful in the sport. Ultimately, my belief is that the release of a fish does not exist in the sport of spearing. I believe in the catch and release of all trophy sized fish, regardless of species. I know not everyone feels this way, and I also know that it is the right of others to keep legal fish if they so choose.
What needs to be understood by the masses is the effect spearing and harvesting of any large fish can have on the overall population of a fishery. We all have the legal right to keep 48" muskie in our state. So, if 50 anglers choose to keep 48" or larger legal fish out of lake Miltona this summer, will that impact the muskie population? Whose responsibility is it to look out for the resource? Just because it is legal does not mean that it is what is in the best interest of our fisheries.
The same can be said for the trophy pike population in cass. Just because it is legal to harvest these fish does not mean that it won't negatively impact the overall population for years to come.
I am not a fish biologist, nor do I claim to be, but I trust the educated professionals, our DNR leaders, to determine laws and regulations to protect our resources. I don't think that the recent legislation did what was in the best interest of our fisheries here in MN. This is not a MDAA vs. Muskie Angler battle right now. I am concerned for our fisheries as I have no optimism about what could happen next. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I didn't say to 'lie', I suggested to present our 'truth' in a completely different manner. Your perception of what the Dark House folks did was that it was 'dishonest'. Theirs isn't, they feel the 'public' was deceived by Muskie anglers and used 'selective facts' to try to influence the public to believe their version of the truth, and they won this round. I believe in one hand you said you understand a 'scorched earth' approach now, and on the other condemned the concept.
Perhaps you missed the Ben Kenobi references. Don't tell me you didn't see Star Wars...
Our truth is based on OUR perception, theirs on what THEY believe. What's 'real' isn't either if one belongs to neither group and isn't invested in fighting for Cass to be a trophy pike fishery/protected muskie fishery or a spearing destination; the lake won't empty if it's either or neither, and I didn't hear the 'big pike will make this a destination and it needs to be protected into the future' argument until recently. I believe it was JS who made the point this isn't about Muskies. I've heard the 'other' justification for the ban, and it had nothing at all to do with creating a trophy pike water. Did WE fall for the above advertisement too?
You are, however, following the path described exactly... Demonize your opponent. Problem is, this is the wrong audience.
The actual fight is probably neither. It's the DNR who should make the decision based upon their long range plan for that waterbody, and they did so on Cass, albeit influenced by the Muskie guys. Bad idea to have politicians run the fisheries department, and ridiculous that enough influence can be exercised to get the law changed so the DNR is unable to do the job they were assigned to do. The battle needs to be directed there...don't you think?
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| I would argue that this is the main fact behind all of these arguments. The bottom line is that the DNR put these regulations in place to create a trophy pike fishery and now without their approval it is being removed. Although I would agree that sometimes this message is lost in all of the conversation. Bottom line is that most Muskie fisherman are scared because we know there are a lot of people out there (for ignorance or vengeance) that will chuck a spear at a Muskie and that will undoubtably hurt the fishery. We are even more concerned that special interest groups can get in the right back pocket and push their agenda. Not knowing where his will lead is the icing on the cake for my concern. |
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Sled;
180? No idea what you are tallking about.
Guess you don't really read what I type.
JS |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 7/25/2011 11:11 AM
It's been over 10 years since I was a co-chair of the MMA, now the MMPA.
I'm not speaking for any of them or even know what they are planning to do.
Merely trying to explain the history of pike management in MN and how it started.
The muskie anglers in MN didn't get riled up until the "lift the ban on Cass" movement started. Unfortunately that took the wind out of the sails regarding pike management and shifted the focus to muskie anglers vs. spearers
JS
last time you told me the musky guys have been grassroots involved since the early 1990's ...
i'm confused ... and so, it seems are you. |
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The MMA was started years after the pike special regs were put into place on selected lakes.
The MMA had nothing to do with it. I never claimed they did in the begining. You seemed to think I was speaking on behalf of the MMPA, or it's members and I stated I wasn't, haven't been actively involved with them for years.
It's not confusing, it's really pretty simple. Involvement in pike management changes started before the MMA did.
So that is my "flip-flop"?
You really seem intent on trying to find things in my posts so you can make fun of me rather than taking anything out of them.
JS
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Location: Hudson, WI | Tony-
I knew that post was going to come off a little harsh, and you know I was not talking about all Minnesota muskie guys in general. I'm referring to the small, but very vocal group of anglers that consistently complain about every single thing that may or may not affect a tiny fraction of their muskie fishery...or pike in this case.
Be aware of it, because those folks DO NOT represent you. If you see a greenhorn muskie angler bringing a 49 incher into Mase's to get it mounted, I don't think it's elitist to try to educate him about the benefits of catch and release. It's the right thing to do for the fishery. That's not what this is about. You know who I'm talking about. "Out of state guides are ruining my lake." "Everyone is coming to Minnesota and my lake isn't what it used to be." "There's too much pressure on Big D/Miltona/Mille Lacs/whatever." Pressure? They'd spend one hour on Tonka and their head would explode. "Tom Gelb mounted a 51 pounder two years ago...what an great person!" And on and on and on they go about something or something ruining a fishery.
In the process, that fraction of anglers has made enemies of walleye fishermen, "out-of-staters," "city guys," and spearfishermen. Probably bald eagles and otters at some point, too. Yep, if spearers jab a muskie out of season, it should be punished in accordance with the law. But now it's to the point where they are not going to back down to the MDAA over regulations on one lake...for pike? They pushed too far, peeed on a bee's nest and it backfired big time. I can't think of a worse outcome than legislature (especially Minnesota's) making fisheries management decisions.
Think about it, man. There is a huge difference between caring for the resource and educating whoever you can accordingly, practicing what you preach....and just being intolerant of what some consider a good time. Especially when it doesn't even relate to muskie fishing. |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'You really seem intent on trying to find things in my posts so you can make fun of me rather than taking anything out of them. '
Pot, meet kettle.
And Moltisanti made a couple points that bear consideration. |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | Sled,
I did catch a good number of those on CJs, but not all. I have found CJs to be extremely affective for big Pike on Mille Lacs, Leech, and Minnetonka. However, in-line bucktails seem to work better on LOTW, Eagle, and Cass. Spoons are usually best on Bebee, Waconia, Mississippi and St. Croix rivers, and some of the other metro lakes such as Forest, Medicine, and Fish. I have a few lakes where big Rad Dogs seem to be best too. I have no idea why either. |
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Posts: 3158
| Herb
CJ''s and Raddogs rock but I pinch down the barbs on all mine and look down on people who dont do the same thing  |
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| - oops, nobody answered me about how come there's only 49 members of the minnesota musky and pike alliance since it's been so active since the early 90's??
Not sure who told you there were 49 members? |
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