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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | Lets say I've found a few areas that hold a decent number of large fish in a large river with a 2-4mph current. I cast I don't troll and jiggin' bores me to death. Any suggestions on tactics to get down to fish casting that are 20-30ft down?
Thanks
Tim
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Posts: 2068
| Well the two things you dont want to do would be the most effective...what about working a mag dawg or jig on a cast (count down) also some cranks can reach 15ft on a bomb cast but dont stay in that zone long... so......Try a "double pounder cowgirl"? 
Edited by IAJustin 6/20/2011 11:48 AM
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Location: Des Moines IA | Countdown depthraider? |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | slow rolling BIG HEAVY spinnerbaits. cast out and let hit the bottom. |
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | C.Painter - 6/20/2011 1:12 PM
slow rolling BIG HEAVY spinnerbaits. cast out and let hit the bottom.
Thats what I've been playing with. I've been using some 3oz with a single #8 willow leaf blade. They aren't bad but I'm thinking I need to get some in the 5-6oz range. I make my own spinner bait but havent been able to find a mold for larger than the 3oz I use now. Any suggestions on a brand name of baits or know of a mold?
Thanks
Tim
Edited by Roughneck1860 6/20/2011 12:16 PM
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Posts: 941
Location: Freedom, WI | Casting I would have to suggestions. One a HardHead and screw some weight on to get it down fast. Two a big spinner bait to get it down. Or take the HardHead and add a couple of blades a couple of inches in front of the nose and you can have both, Leaders and Lures Pulsator (they will build the blade combo you want) or a bulldozer. |
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | A Magnum size BullDawg with the weight of a pounder would be nice as well. I've been playing around with that. The current can be a real good guy though. The smaller profile baits get down easier but I want something with some meat to it still.
Tim
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | Twin Fins sink like a stone. Curly Sues run deeper than Bulldawgs, too. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Other than the Hardhead (fully customizable with the weight inserts in the bait already-front and back), I would say a Big Joe. The Twin Fins will get there quick as well, but I just never had the luck with the Twin Fins like I do with the Joes. I believe ERC has a Pearson Grinder with a monster head on it that gets down quick as well. Not sure if the discontinued it or still have it as I got mine several years ago. Esox Rigs has a magnum double willow bucktail that I threw a bit this past weekend that gets very deep as well if you let it, and pulls a ton. Beast Teaser was also making one a couple of years ago, but not sure if George is still making them. Another option would be casting out a fuzzy duzzit, and rip jig it back to the boat. It does trigger fish. The Red October Big Sexy tubes also get down in a hurry, and stay down there.
Not too many cranks will get down to that level casting, and stay there to be efficient. I have tried. If you want to use a crank go to countdowns. Roger (H2O Tackle) has one that maintains a wiggle at a slow retrieve speed. CD Depth Raiders are an option, but you need to reel fairly fats to get a wiggle if you don’t rip jig (how I fish them) them back to the boat. A CD Shark is a good option as well. You can also custom weight some cranks. I like doing it with ones that are either all wood, or are a solid plastic like Trophy Divers. Key though is to have ones with metal lips so you can adjust the lip angle to help achieve the desired wiggle. They can be a pain to get weighted so that they sink fast enough, but yet wiggle. I have gotten my fair share of “dead” ones. Regardless of what crank you use though they just will not get down nearly as fast as the baits in the first paragraph.
For me, as I fish that depth quite frequently, I am either grabbing a Big Joe or a Hardhead. The big tails (spinners that is) down that deep are still new to me, but I know they work well from the reports I get from an acquaintance.
Edited by CiscoKid 6/20/2011 2:11 PM
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Posts: 458
| Stealth Leaders makes a nice weighted leader and if you contact John he may be able to make you a really heavy leader. I have some of his 1 oz leaders but he may be able to make heavier ones. |
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Posts: 1086
| Roughneck1860 - 6/20/2011 11:31 AM
Lets say I've found a few areas that hold a decent number of large fish in a large river with a 2-4mph current. I cast I don't troll and jiggin' bores me to death. Any suggestions on tactics to get down to fish casting that are 20-30ft down?
Thanks
Tim
Just posting these from this site to show the baits in the photos and the write-up. Don't have to buy these from the UK. These can be found here in the U.S.
http://www.sovereignsuperbaits.co.uk/Lures/Hard_Baits/Deep_Divers/M...
Edited by MACK 6/21/2011 7:48 AM
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Posts: 358
Location: London, England | I would think that fishing a 1-2oz jig head with a not too bulky bit of plastic would probably be your best bet. Spinning gear with 30lb braid would help too. Hard to think how to approach it casting with conventional musky tactics. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Great scott Tim, you brought up a simple but yet very effective lure that I forgot to mention. The good 'ole shad tail with a big jig head that contains a chain stinger treble. Again another rubber bait that is very effective in deep water, and will get you down quick. Only guy I know that routinely uses them is Paul Klein. |
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Location: oswego, il | The hardhead is a great choice as mentioned above. Might want to look at the bondy bait too. |
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Posts: 3242
Location: Racine, Wi | Roughneck1860 - 6/20/2011 12:41 PM
A Magnum size BullDawg with the weight of a pounder would be nice as well. I've been playing around with that. The current can be a real good guy though. The smaller profile baits get down easier but I want something with some meat to it still.
Tim
That's exactly where one of Roger's (H2O tackle) hardheads would shine. You can add some weight to them with the screw in inserts in order to get them heavy enough to get down there. Definitely check them out!
Joes and Twin Fins would do the trick as well. The one thing I like about the twin fins is that they will roll on their side if you give them an easy pull as your retrieving them, giving them a little flash. You can always add some bell sinkers to the split ring to get more weight to them to keep them down there as well. |
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Posts: 358
Location: London, England | CiscoKid - 6/21/2011 1:54 PM Great scott Tim, you brought up a simple but yet very effective lure that I forgot to mention. The good 'ole shad tail with a big jig head that contains a chain stinger treble. Again another rubber bait that is very effective in deep water, and will get you down quick. Only guy I know that routinely uses them is Paul Klein. LOL! How's Shawn doing? Spent a great week on LOTW with him back in 2003. He got his bear license in the end I believe. |
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Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | I think the Red October Tubes would be perfect. This is just what they were designed for. Single hooks facing up to keep from snagging. |
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| With current up to 4mp, I think you are going to need considerably more weight than what is mentioned here. Here is what I use to go deep 99% of time on lakes without current, but again think you are going to need more.
* Hard head's with 3/8oz weight insert in the nose. I find using the small HH with this weight gets it down a little quicker than with the large HH.
* Super D's in mag size used with 1oz Stealth weighted leader. Super D's are a little easier for me to keep deep than dogs. The weighed Stealth leaders are great if you haven't used them yet...
If it was me, I would prbably go to an area where you can contact some structure at that depth and play around with baits and weight. This way you will know what is getting you down there and what kind of cadence you need to stay down there in the current. |
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| Fuzzy duzzit, use it like a crank if you don't like jigging. you'll have no problem hitting the bottom. |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | edalz - 6/20/2011 9:56 PM
Stealth Leaders makes a nice weighted leader and if you contact John he may be able to make you a really heavy leader. I have some of his 1 oz leaders but he may be able to make heavier ones.
Use the one ounce with Mag Dawgs. It not only gets it deeper faster, it gives the Dawg better action. |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
just thinking about this a bit...if the fish are down, say 20 - 30 feet, all you need is something that is going to get down 10 - 15 feet or so...keep it above them by that much. If they are biters, 10 feet is at or just over half the length of your boat... A flick of the tail will have them behind that bait and ready to eat. more negative or neutral fish? then jigging might be the best method.
get some countdown rapalas and give them a 10 count...then start reeling, pumping, what have you...
steve |
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Posts: 3913
| Drill out and fill a granny with oil. Wrap and paint some lead thread on the shank of each treble. Now you have a countdown granny. But not for casting in deep river current.
Troll it to bounce the bottom; many of the very biggest fish hold in primo holes on the river bottom just below the fastest current in the area and unless your bait passes just right above those lazy big fish they will not move. When you find a killer drop in a fast current area roll over it again and again and again.
Here's what I caught after passing again and again and again over a targeted drop for 3 hours....
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Posts: 3913
| Trolling was the only way to put the modified bait way down deep where I needed it in that fast current. |
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Posts: 164
| Tim,
I know a Depthhammer will get down deep and fast just cranking it. At Chicago show in the pool standing by the deep end, it would hit the bottom very quickly, just ask Tom Dietz.
R&H carries them or check out the Sledgehammer website. http://www.sledgehammerlure.com/depthhammer.php
I could also add extra weight to Curly Sue’s when I make them as well.
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| An excellent source for deep diving swim baits is jacksjigsfishinglures.com. |
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | Ranger - 6/24/2011 1:39 AM
Trolling was the only way to put the modified bait way down deep where I needed it in that fast current.
If I'm trolling, which I also prefer not to do I have no problem getting my baits of any kind down to the depths I mentioned. I have my boat equipped with a pair of short boom down riggers. Gets anything down there. I'm just getting stubborn as I get older. I've been trolling for ski's for 25yrs and dont want to do it any more regardless if its "the best" way just like I dont want to jig even though it may be "the best" way. For now I'm going to play with some RO tubes, maybe a couple Fuzzi Duzzits and try casting them. Id like to try a Head Hard but I can't find anyone in Ontario that carries them and besides that we have postal strike going on up here so the mail is out. It would end up costing me $70 to get one and have it UPS'ed direct so I cant see that happening anytime soon either. I'll be out this week if the weather dies down and give things a go and report back if anything amazing happens. That for all the replies guys
Good Fishin'
Tim
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Posts: 1405
Location: Detroit River | The most effective method for fishing that deep in current is vertical jigging. You will not only catch active fish but the neutral & negative fish as well. The Bondy Bait works the best for this. I fish those depths in the Detroit & St. Clair Rivers using a Bondy Bait & its put more fish in the boat for me than casting has.
Go to the video section & watch Jon Bondy's video on jigging musky, it's excellent.
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Posts: 556
| POSTAL STRIKE ---Never heard of that--Postal workers can't strike or they would end up like the AIR TRAFIC CONTROLLERS and be out of a JOB !!! No striking against the postal service anywhere in the U.S.....something else must be up. |
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Posts: 247
Location: Uxbridge Ontario | Nope, Canada wide postal strike is on right now. They were doing a rotating strike from from area to area on schedule until they got locked out. No mail for the last 2 or 3 weeks.
I just think its a way to prolong giving us back our income tax returns as they were due a week or so ago. |
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Posts: 719
| Zib you nailed it. We boated 5 for 6 today vertically jigging. Plus you never pull it out of the water, so it stays in their face longer. And they don't have to chase it down. |
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | Hey Jon. I won't argue with you or Zib over the effectivness of jigging but with all the time we spend fishing near each other do you ever recall seeing me jig. Even if you've had had twice the fish in the boat I've not switched. Maybe I'm stubborn or just plain loosen it as I get old but I can't handle more than about 15min of it. Just like handlineing for 'Eyes's....can't do it. I guess I may be just trying to build a better mouse trap and will come to my senses one day.......but then again I've never had much of it to start with.
Good Fishin'
Tim
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| How deep will the standard 8" Depthraider get? The 9" Grandma? |
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Posts: 3913
| Hey Jon. I won't argue with you or Zib over the effectivness of jigging but with all the time we spend fishing near each other do you ever recall seeing me jig. Even if you've had had twice the fish in the boat I've not switched. Maybe I'm stubborn or just plain loosen it as I get old but I can't handle more than about 15min of it. Just like handlineing for 'Eyes's....can't do it. I guess I may be just trying to build a better mouse trap and will come to my senses one day.......but then again I've never had much of it to start with.
Good Fishin'
Tim
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"If yer not gonna learn what you don't want to know then why ask in the first place?" - Bob Weir
Dude, I spotted a primo drop on the rock bottom in about 18' of fast current and went after the fish I expected would be tucked in there. Current on top was much slower than the current on the bottom, plus the current was swirling down there and no wonder, the river had just come out of a turn and narrowed tight against a rock bluff. Fast and swirling water doing different things at different depths.
Jigging failed because of the current.
Backtrolling the boat to bring the bait to the target area worked somewhat but I had little control against that wall and the bait was hanging up on debris.
The only way I was able to drag a lure on the rock bottom and immediately over the head of any holding fish in that single feature, a sudden drop from 18' to 20', was to use a weighted crankbait and run with the current. Tooks me a whole lot of passes to get the bait in the right place.
In the end you can't argue with results. Look at the pic above. I spent all day targeting a single spot I assumed held a nice fish if I could just get the bait down there in the right manner. And trolling carefully-modified cranks was the ticket. |
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Posts: 963
| Roughneck,
Big joes will be good, but there is a bunch of guys in your area using the Live Action mojoe's casting them getting some huge fish the last few weeks, If you fish them slow they will get get super deep. They are the next size up from the Big Joes and are alot heavier. If you want to use dawgs deep the weighted leaders from Stealth tackle are a must.
good luck,
Jeff Hanson
madisonmuskyguide.com |
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Posts: 115
| I've wanted to try the Sebile Koolie Minnow LL for hitting deep humps. The LL runs really deep. Might work in the river. Otherwise, I'd probably try a large jig with plastic minnow. |
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