Posted 6/7/2011 1:46 PM (#501671) Subject: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 726
Location: Eau Claire, WI
I see a lot of tourney guys talk about how much money they pump into local economies. I know it to be true that anglers do spend money.
What I don't know is ALL the types of spending these guys claim to be making and how much that truly amounts to. I know that some individuals will go nuts but for every guy like that there are a bunch that are doing it on the cheap. Not everyone is eating in restaurants, buying lures, replacing parts on their boats, staying in hotels, etc. Also the money that is spent tends to be localized to the hosting hotel/restaurant,etc. So I think it benefits some businesses in the community, its not widespread and it tends to trickle into other local industries as these businesses spend their incomes.
I read a study a few years ago that used, I believe, $75 per angler per day/night to calculate possible revenue for local economy. It was based on a large Bass event in WI.
Anybody have any other data on revenue generated and how to approximate what it means to local economies?
Any tournament anglers able to share how much they spend and on what types of purchases of good/services?
I'm really interested in the economies and business end of tournaments and how they affect local business communities.
Posted 6/7/2011 3:55 PM (#501708 - in reply to #501671) Subject: RE: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 1536
Location: God's Country......USA..... Western Wisconsin
Just got back from a fun trip to Ashland fishing Smallies and only paid $67.00 for the motel. Between the 2 of us we spent $452.00 total for truck gas, boat gas, 2 mornings breakfast, 1 nights dinner and snacks no bait or tackle. 1 night stayed....I think that the figure of $75.00 per angler per day/night is very conservative. Averaged out it will be much more than that.
Posted 6/7/2011 4:25 PM (#501719 - in reply to #501708) Subject: RE: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion
I would say that I spend about $700-$800 per every PMTT Event that I've fished in the last six yrs.
Lodging for 4 days, fuel, oil, food,drinks,license,some tackle,Tips,...ect....
This doesn't include entry fee's.
Some guys spend about $500, and some guys spend $1,200 for a Tournament.......... Some guys spend a week pre fishing and some guys just 1 day pre fishing...... The biggest cost is usually fuel........Unless your Tony Grant !
Posted 6/7/2011 4:32 PM (#501722 - in reply to #501671) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi.
our community goes to church on sundays and then we gather and praise traveling musky fishermen on mondays, cuz if it weren't for them coming to town it would shrivel up and die.
Posted 6/7/2011 7:08 PM (#501751 - in reply to #501722) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI
jonnysled - 6/7/2011 4:32 PM
our community goes to church on sundays and then we gather and praise traveling musky fishermen on mondays, cuz if it weren't for them coming to town it would shrivel up and die.
Well no wonder Phelps is suffering. Now that the WMT can't fill an event there the hardware store has closed it's doors in town.
Not so sure one tournament on it's own keeps a town going. Not even two or three. I am sure general angling brings more money into a town in a year than tournaments, but still not enough. Perhaps part of why towns are beginning to suffer. No real "meat" in a lot of towns anymore to keep them going. Sad deal.
Posted 6/7/2011 7:19 PM (#501753 - in reply to #501671) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi.
family saturday to saturday vacationers are what's missing for a miriad of reasons ... bring them back and the economy returns.
special interest angling is spending but not and never been capable of sustaining the economy of the northwoods. give the resort owners a property tax break for one thing. there is such limited location for people to "vacation on water" anymore due to the property value and taxes that ran out of control that the saturday-to-saturday vacationer has all but gone away and that's what built the northwoods ... now that the bubble has burst the result is lost resorts and what replaced them now typically in foreclosure.
Posted 6/7/2011 8:44 PM (#501760 - in reply to #501753) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 305
With regard to Phelps specifically, one contributor to its demise has been a distinct lack of friendly customer service to visitors in most businesses in town. The gas station near town launch being an exception. Don't need sucking up, don't want rude or at best apathy either. My whole group experienced same over years. Only place we didn't have contact with locals was the hospital. Rarely get that attitude in mino qua...usually very friendly.
Posted 6/7/2011 9:48 PM (#501772 - in reply to #501760) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 1220
I have said plenty on every single board in support of tournament folks, but there is certainly nobody, including me, that is going to claim that they can cure the economic woes of a badly managed economy. It is just a help, that's all. We contribute. If 80 teams spend $500.00 in your town on a weekend, that's forty grand, not the millions it takes to make a tourist industry. It's not any great shakes, but it is still better than not having it. To make more of it would be inappropriate just as it would to make less of it. I attended a tournament this last March in Rogers AK where the Mayor gave us his cell phone number at the meeting. He has Walmart, but still totally appreciated having us too. Marty
Posted 6/7/2011 11:19 PM (#501782 - in reply to #501671) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 1168
The amount of money spent on gas is often cited as money flowing into a local economy and this simply isn't true. Even with $4 gas filling stations are not turning a ridiculous profit on fuel. It's the other stuff that they offer that keeps them going.
My mother manages a hotel and we've talked about what events pump money into the local economy based on her interactions with guests. Anytime you have a large group of outside people coming into town it will help but I agree, tournaments are not the be all, end all. The bigger problem is that so many from those large groups...whether it's a fishing tournament, hockey tournament, Packer games, bowling tournament, etc....take the quick and easy way out with their meals or other shopping needs. They'll go to Burger King, McDonald's, or Taco Bell before the local mom and pop joints.
The hotel industry will benefit simply because they are putting heads in beds but the local economic impact is greater when you move down the money chain. Money being paid to stay someplace is helping a little bit but the bigger boost comes from the fact that if you can fill up a 65 room establishment it gives more hours to housekeepers, maintenance staff, and desk staff who in turn take their paychecks and keep it local because they will be the ones who are more inclined to spend locally instead of paying a national chain for whatever they need.
I don't know what that gripe about Phelps is all about. I've never experienced those things there.
Posted 6/8/2011 6:31 AM (#501790 - in reply to #501671) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 247
Location: Uxbridge Ontario
Dont forget about the draw of the event. The spectator that come to watch awards, weigh in and the media that the event will draw.
There is more to it than how much the participants spend. It is not easy to compete. If you think about it, it is much more enjoyable for a guy and his buddy to go out fishing for the day, weekend or week than it is to fish in a pressured tournament... a lot cheaper too.
silver scale
Posted 6/8/2011 7:32 AM (#501799 - in reply to #501790) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
On the flip side there are those that won't visit an area if they know a tournement is going on so there is lost $ there. Hard to put a number on this but it could be a wash in tournaments versus lost $ from others not coming. This is probably more true during the months of June, July and August. Fall tournaments are probably more to the plus side.
Posted 6/8/2011 8:58 PM (#501959 - in reply to #501799) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 305
My point, Ulbian, about Phelps is that it is dying largely because in this economic downturn only those that compete well for tourism survive. U must be in the minority in terms of your experiences there...if not it would be drawing better and competing well. Why should the northwoods be immune to such factors? We all need to get lean. My group and I will spend our leaner dollars where they are met with a better product. Looks like some tourney folks agree.
local
Posted 6/8/2011 9:45 PM (#501970 - in reply to #501671) Subject: RE: Revenue generated by tournaments?
you have to remember that the folks up north especially in the smaller towns off the beaten path (ie: not eagle river or minocqua) get all sorts of visitors throughout the year including families, arts & crafters, skiiers, snowshoers, bicyclists, bikers, retirees, golfers etc...
you might want to take a look in the mirror because i'm here to tell you the tournament crowd isn't always the top of the list of behavior and the ones they'd "rather have" ... just go to one and answer the question of whether you'd want to invite that crowd into your home.
the "what happens in the northwoods - stays in the northwoods" attitude is what people are getting sick of.
just read the thread on the minneapolis star-tribune and look at the first comment that the "haters" all don't like the musky crowd for this or that reason.
perceptions are reality and the perceptions simply is what it is ... and i hope it changes, but until then you may be received based on how the ones before you left the place, right or wrong and the fishing tournament crew could use an upgrade in behavior. it would help all of us.
Posted 6/8/2011 10:24 PM (#501977 - in reply to #501671) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
OutdoorsFIRST will attend more than 35 tournaments this year as media; in fact this weekend we will have crews at the BASS Elite, the FLW Walleye Tour in Walker, MN, and the Mercury Marine National Walleye Tournament, events that will field well in excess of 450 competitive anglers. The Walleye Weekend Mercury Marine National Walleye Tournament and Festival will draw over 30,000 people a day.
We've spent the last 10 years on the road providing expanding coverage, and the general behavior of the competitors in public is largely excellent.
The importance of good public image is strongly reinforced by most tournament directors at rules meetings, and for good reason.
We don't travel the Muskie events much because there's little interest by the circuits or our audience in covering what's out there, but I do help run two events a year that fill up pretty well, and have never seen any bad behavior at either. One is held specifically as a fund raiser for a major charity and due to the generosity of the competitors and sponsors, sent over $5K last year to a local Ronald McDonald House.
Most of the communities engage the event and competitors. The NPAA, in cooperation with the Walleye circuits, directly engages the communities offering Kids and Family Fishing events that outfit anywhere from 50 to literally hundreds of kids with a rod and reel and basic tackle, and instruction on how to use same, getting hundreds of local kids into fishing. There were over 300 kids at the Bay Mills event last weekend. The JJ Keller Foundation donated $1250.00 to a kids program, and $1250 to Anglers Without Boundaries at that same event. The FLW on Leech in Walker will host an NPAA Kids and Family Fishing Event event this Saturday, and those events are run exclusively by Pro anglers.
So it's not at all accurate to paint all competitive angling with an anonymous, radically exaggerated negative brush.
That said, the Muskie tournament trails don't seem to want to directly involve the community or media as much, and could use a moment's observation on how FLW Walleye and Bass, BASS, and AIM engage the local communities and how the National Professional Anglers Association pays it forward. A great start for most competitive muskie anglers fishing regularly would be to join the NPAA, and attend the annual conference.
Posted 6/8/2011 10:49 PM (#501979 - in reply to #501970) Subject: RE: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 305
Ya, i've heard some colorfull stories of certain teams on the tourney trail. I also have, indeed, had musky tourney anglers in my home and wouldn't hesitate to invite those individuals back. We may well have been 'profiled' as you suggest. My group is respectfull to a man...and that business is gone from that town forever. If all those other non-fisherman you list were supporting the town then why is it dying while many other towns are not? Lack of customer service in an area whose primary industry is tourism. For what its worth, no one in my group is a tourney fisherman. Sure sounds like they might be fun in a setting with people that get what I'm saying. That Kevin Worrall Memorial gets rave reviews...maybe I do see a tourney fisherman in the mirror after all.
Posted 6/9/2011 12:00 AM (#501981 - in reply to #501959) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 1168
esoxlucifer - 6/8/2011 9:58 PM
My point, Ulbian, about Phelps is that it is dying largely because in this economic downturn only those that compete well for tourism survive. U must be in the minority in terms of your experiences there...if not it would be drawing better and competing well. Why should the northwoods be immune to such factors? We all need to get lean. My group and I will spend our leaner dollars where they are met with a better product. Looks like some tourney folks agree.
Go and read your original post about Phelps again. Your gripe was about customer service. Not about a lack of good products. I never implied anything in my response to you about quality of products. I was addressing the way you pontificated about how you've been met with bad customer service. Bad customer service and bad products are not the same thing.
Posted 6/9/2011 12:16 AM (#501984 - in reply to #501981) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 305
Tourism is the major industry. Customer service IS the product in terms of the towns businesses. The gas station near launch understands this. Hardware store...not so much.
Posted 6/9/2011 12:48 AM (#501985 - in reply to #501671) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 1270
The best "test" I've heard of was in Winneconne for a PWT event where one of the promoters in the town got several thousand dollars in $2.00 bills and asked the anglers to exchange their moeny with the $2.00 bills and use them on everything they spent in the community. It was amazing where those $2.00 bills all showed up and how the community is now behind tournaments.
Posted 6/9/2011 6:41 AM (#501997 - in reply to #501984) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 1168
esoxlucifer - 6/9/2011 1:16 AM
Tourism is the major industry. Customer service IS the product in terms of the towns businesses. The gas station near launch understands this. Hardware store...not so much.
So what is it? Customer service or better products? In one post you say customer service is the product. In another you talk about where you will spend your lean dollars. I have yet to find a place where the town's hardware store is the crown jewel of tourism. I go to a hardware store to buy a hammer, not ask or expect a heartfelt episode of Oprah. If I go to a gas station the expectation rises a little bit....perhaps a little conversation is ok if I am the one looking for it. If I go to a tavern then yeah, please be friendly. That's how those places stay in business. You say it's ok at the gas station? Cool, I agree. The hardware store? Again, what are your expectations in places like that? For me it's much, much different than a place where conversational small talk is encouraged. This isn't a Bath and Body Works, it's a Hardware Store.
Posted 6/9/2011 7:01 AM (#502001 - in reply to #501979) Subject: RE: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi.
esoxlucifer - 6/8/2011 10:49 PM
Ya, i've heard some colorfull stories of certain teams on the tourney trail..
unfortunately it's the colorful ones that are rememebered most ...
steve ... the ones you cover are professional tournaments right? having been to both "types" professional walleye and amateur musky/bass ... do you see differences? an amateur bass tournament as an example has become famous in minocqua for all the wrong reasons.
it sounds like an apple is being compared to an orange
Posted 6/9/2011 7:40 AM (#502007 - in reply to #502001) Subject: RE: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 305
My expectiatons and those of my group are apparently in line with the majority or the town would not be in trouble. The proof is in the pudding. By the way, Oprah is apparingly quite the topwater artist, swooshing a mean Weagle. She may get an invitation to our next trip. Johnnysled...the tourney trail i was refering to is a certain pro musky tour that recently changed its name. The stories are not fit for consumption here.
Posted 6/9/2011 7:51 AM (#502008 - in reply to #501671) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Sled,
It's 100% the promoter's issue if there's a 'bad' tournament out there; the folks running the event set the tone and make the rules. Most events we cover have rules about behavior that are very clear. I've never heard a thing, but I only own a home up there and don't live in it much. It's hard to compare anything when talking generalities; my point is it isn't competitive angling at issue, it's a specific event and that a regional bass event, apparently.
The city could certainly effect the permitting of that event by making a case with the fisheries manager who signs off on the event;if he's getting lots of complaints it won't be hard to see to it the event isn't welcomed back, and strict, targeted police/dnr enforcement would help modify behavior if there's issues with infractions.
Let's not confuse tourists/tourism with competitive angling, either. Tourists go to an area because of attractions and atmosphere, competitive anglers because of an event. The Harley rally and other events like it are not populated by either, those are sort of hybrids. Phelps, Land O Lakes, and lots of smaller tourism based burgs are not suffering because some guy in a store was rude. They are suffering because tourism there has always been based on hunting and fishing and the hit the area took in the PR debacle over treaty issues and the total and complete failure to address same was a killer worsened by the limitations on walleye harvest, the poor economy, and more. Opening day used to be a celebration, traffic was crazy heading north on 45 and 51, landings were crowded, and dollars were well distributed. Now opening day is just opening day.
lambeau
Posted 6/9/2011 8:42 AM (#502020 - in reply to #501671) Subject: RE: Revenue generated by tournaments?
i think there's probably a world of difference between major/professional events and local/amateur events in terms of the impact on the community. comparing them is unrealistic as the average angler or teams in those events is pretty different.
i'm pretty sure that the Canadian Bass Championship in Ft Frances has a big impact on the local economy: with a $1000 entry fee and 3 days of competition, most of the 120 teams of fishermen are traveling a long distance and are in town for a full week.
there's no muskie events in existance that compare to this: i wish there was! heck, there are no muskie events or trails that would qualify as primarily professional in the same sense as even the major walleye or bass routine tour events.
when i attend a muskie tournament (i've fished 3 already with plans for 6 more later this year), total for both myself and my partner, i'd estimate $200 spent locally over the course of a weekend: hotel, food, maybe a lure or two. add another $150 in gas getting there and back depending on how far away it is. in most cases i would NOT be fishing there or visiting that location if it wasn't for the tournament...and imho, that is the most important thing for those communities.
Posted 6/9/2011 9:40 AM (#502035 - in reply to #501671) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi.
i totally agree with the last 2 posts ... summarize it very well and help to make many points.
another perspective ... as "tourism" dies outside the larger towns of eagle river and minocqua, the quietness attracts retirees and other people with different interests to fill in the void.
to say it's a bad situation is all relative and based on perspective. as i get older i'd rather not have to wait so long to take a left turn across traffic or hear the person complaining because the line at the grocery store is moving too slowly or that the clerk is not fast enough.
Posted 6/9/2011 2:30 PM (#502096 - in reply to #501671) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 726
Location: Eau Claire, WI
Guys, thanks a lot for your perspectives. I appreciate it. I think tournies do help but agree they are not sustainers for communities and really the benefit is realized most for any business or service with a direct relationship to the event. I've fished a few musky events over the years and I've never spent the kind of money some do but in fairness I'm not travelling a circuit either, I'm staying in WI closer to home.
Thanks again,
Jono
Jono
lambeau
Posted 6/9/2011 4:17 PM (#502108 - in reply to #502096) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
the benefit is realized most for any business or service with a direct relationship to the event
true, but don't overlook the $2 bill example up above!
money that gets spent in a community gets re-spent multiple times within that community. it goes from the grocer to the flower shop to the gas station to the plumber to the landscaper to the car repair shop...
if that money never comes to town in the first place, it's can't get multiplied/re-spent.
Posted 6/9/2011 4:58 PM (#502118 - in reply to #502108) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 1220
Clearly no exact pattern in what makes a tournament angler. Certainly, there is an element of wishing to add a level of competition for some, while many others are just choosing a social way to enjoy their hobby as an organized group activity. There are young bucks in the crowd who are trying to make a name for themselves, trying to prove something to somebody, and there just maybe one or two dumb enough to think that you can make money fishing musky events (you can't---not for long anyway!) It's not the FLW, or BASS or even the higher level Walleye stuff where there are truly pros trying to earn a living. It's just not. There are no big time sponshorships, no free boats and motors, no appearance money and in a lot of events the team that wins 4th or 5th place barely gets their entry money back--if that! And, we are like the general population too--men, women, Democrats, Republicans, different faiths, sexual preferences, and background of behavior. We are not like the Harley Owner's Group coming to town with tens of millions of tourist dollars (I used to be one of those) but we are a lot like that in a much smaller way. We gather in hotels together, eat out together and fish together instead of riding bikes through Sturgis (did that too) and we mostly are pretty well behaved. It's a lot of fun, most of us would stop fishing to help you out of a jam, give you a rod and reel if you lost yours, talk to you for hours trying to help you learn to love and appreciate what we love.....and once in while, like I did two weeks ago, fish or scout too close to where you would rather have the place to yourself. Like I said above, we do not bring the sunshine to a fallen economic model---WE JUST HELP THINGS A LITTLE BIT! Marty Forman
Posted 6/9/2011 9:53 PM (#502157 - in reply to #501671) Subject: Re: Revenue generated by tournaments?
Posts: 87
I dont know if anyone else has posted this fact, but tournaments bring in the vacation people. By that I mean I went to lake guntersville because it was on TV and the lake looked like fun. I went to St Clair because of seeing tournaments on TV. I went to KY lake for the same reasons. In the bass world good tournament results for a lake will bring people in droves to fish it. Who doesnt want to go to Falcon after they see a 3 day total of 5 fish each day close to 150 pounds. (Wow)
I think in the musky world going to outdoor shows does more for a lakes draw then anything else when you see many guides and big trophies from a lake your like, wow I gotta go. Magazines would also be a major factor for going to a lake as well.
I have never looked at PMTT results as the main reason to go to a musky lake, but in the Bass world the Elite series can make a town, city, or lake explode with business.
Revenue generated by tournaments?
