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Posts: 77
| I am in the process of completing my 13 inch bait. I have ordered two different thickness's of lexan, 3/16 and 1/4 inch. I put the 3/16 in and it appears just a hair too thin. On the other hand the 1/4 seems a bit excessive.
Do rocks destroy TRUE lexan as much as I hear? Therefore requiring the extra thickness on lips? I fully intend upon also putting in a steel lip, but I know lexan is pretty tough stuff. I have had a couple guys look at my other baits and love the workmanship, but just wont budge because of the lip. I have never ran a bait beating rocks going at the typical musky speeds. I guess that is why I do not understand some guys issue with lexan.
What are your opinions ? Also what regions, structure types, and speeds are you fishing?
Thank you in advance
Jared |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Any of the suppliers use a lexan/nylon hybrid plastic? |
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Posts: 1529
| lexan is fine in that thickness. with the lip slot already cut. . takes a whooollle lot to break 3/16th. |
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Posts: 422
| I would go the thickest you can get by with without hindering the action. Two weeks ago I was reeling a shallow invader over some rocks, it didn't even get hung up and must have banged a rock just right because half the lip was gone when I got it back to the boat. Not sure what happened with that one, not usually something that happens with those baits, so who knows. Musky baits need to be able to take some reasonable abuse in the water. Good Luck with your project! |
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Posts: 152
| Lexicon is pretty strong when its thick Big Game twitch sticks lips are super durable i had one break today when i ran on a rock but the lip stayed intact while the wood on the head of the bait split. i think they use 3/16 thick i abused that bait and the lip never broke unlike thinner versions. I have changed all my crane lips to plastic fiber which is thick yet light and they will never break and the thickness doesnt seem to bother the action at all. Its great stuff if you dont mind the lip not being clear. The stuff is strong as steel. I wont use anything else ever again |
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Posts: 77
| Thanks guys,
I have heard some people are told the lip is lexan. When in truth, at times the lip is just plastic. ANYTHING can be broken, I appreciate everyones input.
Jared
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| if your taking the time and effort of making your own bait go that little bit extra and make it n aluminum lip. |
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Posts: 184
| People will say this and that. 1/4" lexan is good stuff. Here it is on a 12" bait I do. One thing you will notice Jared is that baits will dive deeper with a thinner lip- its a trade off. As for me I don't like the shine a metal lip gives off but we are all different you know. Just make sure to pin it.
Edited by zach2626 5/30/2011 12:28 PM
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Posts: 77
| Zach,
Does the pin touch the actual lip slot? I have not seen this technique before.
I assume the pin is to keep the bait from splitting when the lip gets lodged in rocks and such. The lip acts like a lever |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I agree, pin it. |
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Posts: 155
| I wish all lure maufactures would consider using .187 material .There is a lot of cheesy baits out there.Aluminum is very good,same thickness.Lures have a great woble,slow rise and suspend some.I realize it,s more expensive but worthy! |
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Posts: 941
Location: Freedom, WI | Perfect Drift - Can do all you mention with lexan lips. I use 3/16 to take the abuse. But like Zach mentioned thinner lips dive more, so on the larger baits that I use 1/4" on I round over one edge to thin the edge of the lip and feel it also goes over rocks better. I can destroy an aluminum lip faster on rocks than a thick lexan. All materials have their place, it all depends on what you want out of it and if you want to sell it how much do you have to charge. |
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Posts: 184
| Jared- you actually drill straight up into the bait in the head, right through the lip and into the top of the bait. You can then either use stainless screws or a piece of wire cut to fit flush inside of this new hole you drilled. Do one hole and "pin" per side. This really makes sure the lip doesn't move. I suck at explaining stuff. Its easy though. Good luck- |
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Location: Pigeon Forge TN. | Zach, You have a PM. |
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Posts: 77
| Zach
I think i have a good idea of how to do it. Thank you for the input, sounds very easy. The 13 inch bait went for a swim yesterday. It needs a bit more lip but, but it thats the easy part. I cant wait for the bait to be complete. One thing i have learned about this hobby. There is no reason to rush, all it has done is caused me set backs and frustration. Or imperfections in baits.
I have a few new walleye patterns in my head that should look excellent. I am guessing 3 maybe 4 weeks till complete a finished painted product. I think i may have a chance to get a dive curve on them this weekend.
I am pushing 2 designs at once right now. Probably not the best idea to get something done. But it will pay off soon. I like making new models. I will certainly post pictures upon completion.
I better write the patterns down, i might forget them!  |
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Posts: 908
Location: South-Central PA | Here's a picture of how I pin the lips on my snake skin lures. Like Zach said, just drill your holes and then insert the pins. I epoxy the lip in first and then drill the holes, cut .062 stainless pins, then epoxy over the hole. Go slow and clean the bit often when drilling the holes, it's easy to break those little drill bits off.
jeremy
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Posts: 1202
Location: Money, PA | I think that one thing people need to realize is that baits AREN'T meant to last forever. Of course, cosumers want and are looking for a quality product...however, keep in mind what we are putting these baits through. First, you are presenting these lures to a predator that has every intention on ripping it apart with razor sharp teeth! Second, many of us are looking to get those baits as close to the bottom as we can and often times banging it to produce more attention.
My goal will be to produce a quality bait, but my #1 focus will be on a thumping/vibrating action that fish find hard to resist. After many years of trial and error and muskie fishing in itself, I have found wood lures to produce the most "action" out of cranks...IMO due to the bouyancy. Now, the other issue with wood, is inconsistency since ALL woods have various densities. You know what though? I'm totally OK with that....its what makes each lure unique and set apart from the others. I've been a big Wiley guy for years, still am, and we all know that Wileys are made simple, BUT good. They certainly catch fish and are on high demand!...I have some with tighter action - they caught fish. I have others with a great vibration and wobble - they caught fish. I guess my point here is there are fanatics in every aspect of life....I'm NOT saying this is how the original poster is, I'm just saying that I've been involved with the lure making business for a lot of years and have seen how some people feel that their $15 to $25 needs to somehow last a lifetime. Not gonna happen! Unless, of course, the lure sits in the box most of the time or never attracts the fish enough to get 'em to bite....And who really wants that??
The lip breaks, I grab another lure....The nice thing about lexan is that it will break....typically never effecting the lure body itself. Therefore being an easy fix/replacement. I've had DDs with thck lips or even aluminum and when they pounded a rock, the impact blew the lure apart or cracked it. So there are pros and cons to everything, just use common sense. IMHO, I feel the pins and screws through the lexan lips are unecessary and overkill...especially if the lip is seated/glued/epoxied into the lure body properly.
Edited by ShutUpNFish 6/1/2011 8:09 AM
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Posts: 1529
| most dont realize.
pulling a bait at 4-5 mph is 8ft distance per second. 8 hours of trolling equates 32 miles of joint clacking pondindaction. lips plastic, lexan aluminum are all decent. expecting lures to withstand rock assualts is asking a pinto to win the indy.
as stated above ALL wooden baits have a life cycle.
if there chewed up whether or whatever lip they have done there job..
most guys know i have been building for a few decades. guys theres just no magic bullet PERIOD |
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Posts: 77
| ShutUpAndFish
I could not agree more. To me $15-25 baits are just that. We all know how much work goes into a bait and how much friction, banging, and biting these things go thru. Sorry, but no one can beat friction.
For the most part I think I have done the best I can do to make the as indestructable as I can. I have been trying to do little things that will improve the bait. I am going to pin a bait or two, and take them up to the big lake. I would like to meet some rocks tougher than avon point. 
If baits could be designed to be unbreakable, i think the price would be in the 400--800 range. LOL. Not enough people would buy them to sustain a business and support the technology. |
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Location: South-Central PA | ShutUpAndFish,
I agree. I don't bump rocks consistently, but I still do on occasion and I also bang around every tree I can find in the river. I've landed some lures on rocks/trees and I've never had an issue with lips breaking or coming out. I realize that I don't spend as much time on the water as the average musky fisherman and I don't bang my stuff on rocks like most do. I've only had one lip break loose from the epoxy and it was on a long bomb cast- my buddy landed it headfirst on a rock. Simple fix with 5min epoxy. I started pinning lips recently at the request of fishermen. I figured, if it makes them happy... If I start having catastrophic lure failures from the pins, I may rethink things and go back to straight epoxy.
jeremy
Edited by bowhunter29 6/1/2011 10:39 AM
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I will disagree with Shutupandfish on the pinning point. That seam takes a lot of stress from the lip. Eventually the epoxy will let loose, and the lip can fall out. Pinning does not increase production time all that much, and adds a lot of durability to a lure.
I have also found that casting and ripping a big crank is actually harder on a lure than trolling them. I don't hear of guys having issues with Hookers, but I have issues with bustingn the heads off while casting. To prevent it I run a screw through the head and lip of the bait. Since doing so the bait hasn't broke. Prior to that I could break a Hooker in an hour of casting.
There are little things that can be done to improve the durability of the bait. Is it overkill? Not if it doesn't add much cost and adds life to the bait. Nothing worse than having the head of your best bait pop off, or the lip fall out!
One thing to keep in mind also is the thinner the lip, the more likely that lip could come out without being pinned. Simply because it flexes more. However like some others said a thin lip has it's place, as do thick lips. I actually prefer thin lips. Better for the caster I think, and to me has better action. Also gets deeper. |
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Posts: 77
| I forgot about the casting aspect. I have been a troller for so long.
Backlashes, loading up the rod. Hitting stumps mid cast, etc.
I could see a purpose for pinning larger and heavier designs.
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Location: Money, PA | Its good to hear all the different responses and all the different suggestions....A good way to learn and try different methods.
Heres my question though on the pinned lips....If the plastic happens to break at the base of where it enters the slot, which is the place they break 99% of the time, how do you replace the lips?? I'm assuming it has to go back to the shop and get cut out??
I've been runnin' Wileys almost exclusively for 20+ years, and can honestly say, that I've had to replace or repair a handful of broken or loosened lips. Dale has never used pinns or screws and I have not seen that its ever been any sort of problem. Trust me, if it were, he'd be the first to correct it.
Overkill or Not Overkill....Thats the question....LOL
Edited by ShutUpNFish 6/1/2011 1:22 PM
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I don’t have issues with breaking lips. I just have problems with either the heads of baits popping off straight up from the end of the lip slot due to the force of the lip pushing up, or have the lips fall out or loosen up. Wiley’s may not have a problem simply because the lip is not large enough to be generating enough force on the slot/epoxy. I also don’t have issue with the baits because I am pounding them into something. It is simply due to the constant instant acceleration of a bait on a twitch/rip which causes a large amount of force quickly on the lip and head. It’s not a slow acceleration and thus a slow increase of force on a lip that you see while straight retrieving or trolling.
If you are worried about broken lips and pinning go to the screw method rather than a pin. I use screws to re-enforce my store bought baits. Personally I don’t care if that ugly screw is there. The fish don’t care, and I know it will be strong…if it is put in the right place.
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Posts: 77
| Cisco and Shut-up. Both of you are talking about baits where the tow eye is not attached to the lip. Instead in the nose of the bait. Unless i read your posts wrong.
How about where the bait and the toweye are run together?
I think a clear distinction should be made between these type of baits. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Same issue on both types of baits. Well kind of. I haven't busted any heads off of baits with the line tie in the nose of the bait. However, those baits also aren't the real deep divers. |
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Posts: 184
| Look at what we started. There are many ways to make a plug. Lots of different and good ideas. Jared- best luck, you make a good bait and I just pointed something out that may help you a little. As for a Wiley style lip? Not as much torque is generated on that type of lip IMO. Styles like Jared and I make take lots of abuse and some serious torque is generated. Plus people are more prone to bump our type of baits off bottom than a Wiley style plug since they dive deeper. Jared- like it was said earlier, screws look better to pin the lip but I use wire most of time. Best luck homeboy and if you ever go to that metal lip- even Dale Wiley pins a metal lip to put an end to that discussion. There are 1,000 ways to do the same thing. As for plugs lasting- thats my personal goal as a baitmaker, to make the strongest, most durable plug I am capable of- as long as they still get the fish to bite and keep their action. Jared- try everything out and see what works for you. We are all different you know. As for Paul's style of baits- I personally wouldn't pin it but thats just me as I wouldn't crunch bottom as much with that type of plug. Wiley style plugs don't perform the same if they are "beefed up". They lose that wonder that makes them so good. Different styles, different production processes. Oh the fun world of making something for fish to chew on!
Edited by zach2626 6/2/2011 7:07 AM
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Posts: 1529
| we do pin the lips in our wire thru lures. the bottomfeeders and the 5 inch minee mee,s.. is it needed ? we just want to avoid issues. |
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Posts: 77
| I am going to pin a few baits and beat them up to see how much they can take. I understand how pinning supports the bait.
Zach,
I am with you in saying i am about making the strongest bait i can. I am on a coninuous mission to make an indestructable bait.
Thanks,
Again. |
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Posts: 1202
Location: Money, PA | Good discussion here boys...Kept civil too.
Oh, don't forget Wileys Fat Body baits, especially the old square lip ones. They thumped hard, with a lot or drag and torque too. They also get down pretty deep....just sayin'
Take Care......
-Paul |
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Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | Good topic & good input. From the water side of life I have several of the same brand and size twitch baits, that not so long ago I was able to RIP back in an eractic retrieve. The lips took a beating after the pause. Every once in awhile a lip would break. Most of the time not though. I've had fish hit boatside and the lip gave up like a French prize fighter. I guess I still put a little on the baits as I always seem to have 6-8 in the repair box at the end of the year. I did some lips with computer board, dense heavy stuff but did not break it. For my nickle it's hard to beat a good PC lip. |
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