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Location: Oshkosh | So it looks like the 40" size limit is going to go through in WI next year, which I am all for. My question is, after watching Keys Outdoors today about the PMTT up on the Chip, I noticed that a lot of the fish were under 40". Will these be legal fish next year for the tournament? If not, I believe tournaments will be a lot harder in WI. I'm not a tournament fisherman but know a lot of people here are, how will this affect all of you?
Peter |
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| Good question....In WI, the Pro-Mac, formerly WMT, would also be affected as a "transport" tournament I'm assuming??? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | According to permitting regs, the fish has to be of legal size to take it into possession. If it's transported, it's in possession. |
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Posts: 215
Location: Twin Cities | It will be nice to see WI step up to the minimum for size limits. Tourney results will definetly be hurt from this as there is definetly alot of fish registered under the 40" mark in WI touneys. Either way, this is good for the fish and good for the fisheries of WI.
Edited by The Dogger 4/30/2011 11:12 PM
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Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | Tournaments need to step up and quit the transportation stuff, plain and simple. It's not great for the fish, and just really seems unnecessary in this day and age. The photo format seems to be working out just fine from the ones I have participated in and seen...Maybe this will be the spark that finally gets those wheels in motion once and for all |
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Location: WI | PMTT isn't transport is it? The Chip was already at a 50" size limit for the last year or two. |
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| 44 would be better. at least they get to spawn. |
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Location: oswego, il | I thought the chip had a 45" limit. The PMTT does not run a transport tournament formatt so posession rules do not apply so a 30" fish can be credited for points. |
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Location: 31 | Musky Brian - 5/1/2011 12:08 AM
Tournaments need to step up and quit the transportation stuff, plain and simple.
I wholeheartedly agree, especially regarding muskie tournaments. The upcoming increased size limit should effectively do away with these future transport tournaments. |
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Location: APPLETON, WI | Jerry Newman - 5/1/2011 8:39 AM I wholeheartedly agree, especially regarding muskie tournaments. The upcoming increased size limit should effectively do away with these future transport tournaments.I hope so, as well. I don't fish tournaments at all. At least, I've not had the pleasure of doing so as of yet. But regardless of what the facts and studies say, I simply don't agree that it can possibly be of any benefit to the fish at all. |
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Location: Birchwood, WI. | Musky Brian - 5/1/2011 12:08 AM
Tournaments need to step up and quit the transportation stuff, plain and simple.
+1 !!
Cant believe that this is even happening in our sport . SAD, SAD, SAD !!
Edited by jerken jimi 5/1/2011 9:49 AM
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| OK, here's a reality check for this! The PMTT held two weeks ago in Kentucky where the size limit is now 36 inches, still registered 30" fish. In fact, the winner of the tournament caught and registered an exactlly 30" fish on the first day. Then he followed up the next morning with two more fish including the super-tanker that we all stood in awe of. The reason he could register that 30" fish, as well as the fish registered in last years championship on Minnetonka, and the event on the Chip is that the angler DID NOT TAKE POSESSION of the fish. You can net a fish, take the time required to properly unhook the fish, snap a quick photo and take all the time you need to make a good release WITHOUT taking posession of the fish. The way you do it is to immediately get your partner to call for a judge boat, and have the judge get there before you have exceeded the time a DNR warden would allow and let the judge see the measurement. If the judge were not able to get there, the PMTT allowed you to take your own photo on a pre-approved bump-board. As to the WMT, (now Pro-MAC) they only allow fish to be measured that are legally able to be kept---so the transport thing does not violate anybody's rules. They also have judge boats available for anybody who either does not have an adequate livewell or prefers not to transport their fish. Marty Forman |
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| I have fished an average of 10 tournaments a year for the past 3 years. By far judge boats are the way to go! I hate transporting my fish 3 or more lakes away from where i caught it. Pro Mac strongly disagrees with judge boats and will only use the transportation method from what I was told last year by Tom himself.We will see if he changes his tune when nobody shows up for some of the tournaments. |
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| seems a little contradictory to spout off that we care so much about the musky & then put them through that kind of process all for the name of a tournament. getting hooked up & fighting the fish is one thing. dumping it into a livewell & transporting it several miles to a separate lake for judgment is a whole other issue. heck, most of us tout the fact that we need to handle the fish the least amount as possible & keep it in the net & IN the water. transporting it for the sake of competition does not seem like a healthy, viable solution for the fish. we can't do one thing - and say another as musky fishermen. we need to gain credibility to the sport. |
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Location: SW MI | Maybe I'm a little nieve(sp) here but what about giving everyone registered in the tournament an item unique to that specific tournament that has to be highly visible in the pic of you and the measured fish. That way, there's no need for a judge boat and the Muskie gets released even faster. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | In Ontario a fish under the min size limit must be released imediately so it could not be held for a judge boat. A couple of CO's told me they could if they so chose lay a charge if you kept it long enough for a picture and they definitely would if you spent an excessive amount of time taking pictures the same would aply to a conservation licence which allows none in possession. One proposed tournament in Ontario had to change plans when the MNR pointed this out to them.
Edited by horsehunter 5/1/2011 5:41 PM
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| There is a clear economic aspect to this argument that many, outside the tournament circle, don't see. I love the PMTT atmosphere with a bit more of the pomp and circumstance as well as having 12 or more judge boats ready to race right over to measure and photograph your catch. On the other hand, the WMT (now Pro-MAC) has a very similar payout schedule for about one half of the entry fee. Honestly, at my age, and with the fact that I come more to angling to spend rather than make money, I don't care all that much. But, $320 per team versus $600 per team for what is likely to be a larger purse for the winner (based on the field fishing) is hard to push aside for most of the guys for who money is pretty scarce these days. The Pro-MAC will be the biggest tour with the most events, angler teams entered, money paid out etc. They also have a remarkable record for healthy release (over 99%) and a sound policy of a fifteen minute lockdown after release of a fish. So, yes, I prefer strict CPR tournament formats, but I certainly understand the economics that exists in this debate. |
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So what you are saying Marty is the important thing is the economics of the tournament scene. Not that they are transporting fish which will result in more delayed mortality than using a judge boat format, or pics like the Hartman format and Frank S. tournament in Walker.
JS |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | JS,
You know what our take on this is and we editorially do not necessarily disagree with you...but;
I have a long memory, and your behavior then precludes you from this discussion now. |
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| Honestly, John....I find that I agree with you on more things than not these days, and really tried to explain this thing as best as I could. I am not saying that just because the judge boats add a lot of cost to the event means that we should not have them. I think I said I clearly prefer them, enjoy having them, and believe they contribute to a more "honest" atmoshphere on the water. I am just being straightforward with the fact that the sheer numbers of those who compete and make these choices are certainly reacting to the economics of the world as it is. I will toss out there for you that I have seen guys who could not get a fish to swim off (not a tournament--just guys on the water) and I have come over, put the fish in my 50" livewell with the pump on high and a healthy 1/4 jar of Rejuvenade and saved more than a few fish. Not at all saying putting them in a livewell is the preferred method...just not always the worse thing in the world either. I recognize this discussion will go nowhere good....it's just that while the Pro-MAC as well as everybody else I know is flawed....they are not terrible folks and the anglers I have witnessed there are often every bit as careful with a fish as I know you are. |
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Posts: 243
| Sounds like my initial question was answered by Mr. Worrall. If the regs in WI are approved---and I certainly hope they are---either the format of "transport" tournaments would need to be changed or the minimum size for fish that are registered would be bumped up to 40".
Last year at the WMT event on LVD not one legal fish was registered in the tournament and they had to draw names out of a hat for the winners---that, I believe, was the only WMT event where a 40" size limit was in place (because LVD is border water MI/WI and that is the legal size limit). There were several fish landed between 34 and 39 that would have counted if we had been on a different body of water. I guess my point is the increased size limit would be a big change.
I fish several WMT/Pro-Mac events and agree with Marty's take on the situation that there is some gray here that those who have not participated in the tournaments are aware of. No one is being forced to fish any of these tournaments and those that do make significant efforts to take care of the fish they catch. That being said, it sounds like the format for judge boat tourneys has been effective, so maybe that is the best format moving forward for any musky tourney. |
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Posts: 393
Location: Hopefully on the water | Yes if it changes things to a judge boat format it could change a lot more things for tourneys. Like the example of LVD with the 40" size limit. Not sure but it MAY loow for a fish that is 34" to be counted because it would not be transported. So it would not have to have the winner pulled out of a hat. There is this flip side to it also that MAY change things in tourneys also. I personally have stopped fishing the WMT and got tired of seeing lack of fish caught in theis 1 particular body of water when they light them up 2 days later on another body of water 15 minutes away. That is not why I have stopped fishing the WMT just other commitments.
Now I fish the Hayward Muskies Inc and frish the KVD last year and will contimue to do so. I do like having judge boats out on the water or having another boat come over to witness your catch. It is generally quick and you don't have to leave your spot to come back and see 10 other boats in it. It would be my preffered method for a tourney but that again is just my opinion. |
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| Just FYI, I fished in that tournament last May on Lac Vieux Desert, and did not mind at all the way the big Swede won on a drawing. I don't think I heard a single word about anybody thinking the way they awarded the money was anything but fair. I am also really, really happy to see 40inch (or bigger yet) for Wisconsin and gave my sincere message of admiration to those responsible in another thread this week. Either you will just have to catch a bigger fish to get counted in the tourament with the rules as they are....or the tournaments will adjust their format to the new reality as it unfolds. Either way, I am totally fine with it. My tournament winnings to date is total proof that I enjoy doing it, catching a fish or not! No question, there are some young guys out there trying to make a name for themselves, but by-and-large, this is a social thing done for enjoyment by those who like a little competitive action---not unlike those who go to horse shows, dog shows, dirt track racing, or any of the many pastimes that allow for group travel to fun places where similarly minded folks join in a common and shared love of some sort of hobby. I love being on the water alone with the eagles as the only witness to my catch, and I love trying to see if I can catch a fish before you do sometimes too! Really, I just love it! |
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| WI tourneys have come a long ways from allowing plastic tupperware totes to be used as livewells, but I think going to a judge boat format would be another great improvement.
The Best of the Best tourney on Green Bay does this. You almost have to on a huge body of water like this with a 50" size limit. In the last 5ish years since they started the BOTB, I can only think of a tiny handful of "legals" that have been caught during the tournament. To be honest, only one fish comes to mind right now. Anyway, I would like to see them use a size limit slightly more reflective of the body of water. Allowing 30" fish to be counted on the Bay of Green only serves to pad the numbers. I don't think 36 or 40" is outside the realm of reasonable, but that's just MO.
I think judge boats serve to kinda keep everybody honest too, especially where there are fishing boundaries in play, etc.
If the worst thing that comes about from the 40" increase is that the WMT, or whatever its called now, needs to make some hard decisions about what waters they fish and/or how they conduct the tournament, to me that's more than acceptable collateral damage for the sake of the state's fishery. Been a long time coming and I'm happy its here.
-Eric |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Judge boats have their flaws. On a big body of water it can take them a while to get to you. In fact the radio chasers show up and start beating the water to a froth around you while you sit and wait for the judge boat.
Using digital photos along with some judge boats on the water....to look for shenanigans is the way to go. |
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| 2 years ago we had un-fortunate issues on the detroit river tourney. for the life of me. i dont understand undersize fish being allowed measuring. someone has to stand up to uphold the laws of the state or province.
seems money takes precedent over resources.
now i said it i feel better. |
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| Lvd could have been 34" but the participants voted to keep it 40" if 34" yeah theyd need to go to the judgeboat format. I hope to see the WMT stick with 34" and go judgeboat format acrossed the board. BTW LVD is not on the tour this year. |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | What exactly is the reason for NOT having a judge boat in the WMT, or other tournies? Too much hassle trying to coordinate having judges?
Last time I registered a fish in the WMT I had Tom run out to me. That was for a 41" fish. |
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Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Another very good reason to have judge boats in the ProMac/WMT is: The anglers can catch fish all day instead of sitting out the rest of the day after two fish and hope someone doesn't catch two fish bigger than the two they already caught. Most of the fishermen still on the lake already know what they have to beat so they can fish for the win or decide on the water if the second fish they just caught is big enough.
Let us fish all day and the best anglers will win. Take some of the luck out of the two fish only crap. Judge boats will solve that issue along with the transport issues.
Edited by Mikes Extreme 5/4/2011 9:02 AM
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Location: Hopefully on the water | Marty, I have fished the LVD WMT 4 years in a row in the early stages of it being started and have seen the remaining spots filled by draw out of a hat. People haven't had a problem with it and agree that is the way it is. It gives you hope after a tough day on the water. I also enjoy the competition portion of it also to challange myself and the people you meet are very good people. I just wish they held the tourney the day after it was already fished ( I know it is not possible). But sometimes you hear a lot of info after tourney hours...lol
I guess what I was getting at is if they are to go to the judge boat or digital format it could change on any body of water that could allow smaller fish to be counted pending on how the tourney directors choose.
As far as seeing what some teams out there could do without having to leave the water because they have caught 2 fish could be real interesting. There are some very good sticks on that trail.
As to Travis with the judge boat question. It is tough to orgnaize quality people, boats and locations for tourneys. It costs a person time and money to be a judge boat. Some of the people that are judge boats are because the tourney has been filled or looking for more info on a particular lake.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | CPR with the boards works very well. Paul Hartman used that system for years very successfully. Yeah, the boards are not free, but a $4K investment into the resource that lasts for several years isn't that tough a pill to swallow. One COULD charge the cost of the board and the Team keeps it at the end of a event, too. Probably less an investment than half a tank of gasoline each if the boards are purchased in numbers. Muskie Bumper treated us really well....and builds a great product.
Maybe there's a fear folks won't enter if they have to pay for the board. In 5 events, if the entry fee is raised by $10 an event to cover the boards, it's paid for.
Maybe even $10 is too much, I don't know.
I don't understand why events don't embrace the format. |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | sworrall - 5/4/2011 7:41 PM
CPR with the boards works very well. Paul Hartman used that system for years very successfully. Yeah, the boards are not free, but a $4K investment into the resource that lasts for several years isn't that tough a pill to swallow. One COULD charge the cost of the board and the Team keeps it at the end of a event, too. Probably less an investment than half a tank of gasoline each if the boards are purchased in numbers. Muskie Bumper treated us really well....and builds a great product.
Maybe there's a fear folks won't enter if they have to pay for the board. In 5 events, if the entry fee is raised by $10 an event to cover the boards, it's paid for.
Maybe even $10 is too much, I don't know.
I don't understand why events don't embrace the format.
Perhaps a cut into the bottom line (and not for the anglers)???
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Location: Lincolnshire, IL | I have responded to a few posts.
Muskie Addict says...Anyway, I would like to see them use a size limit slightly more reflective of the body of water. Allowing 30" fish to be counted on the Bay of Green only serves to pad the numbers. I don't think 36 or 40" is outside the realm of reasonable, but that's just MO.
-Muskie-Addict- the BOB is a Muskies Inc. tournament, I think the lunge log for MI is 30”? Maybe 32”. Therefore that is the minimum measurement. And if everyone is playing under the same set of rules..what is the difference what the size limit is? Most of the tournament guys want to catch and register a bunch of fish. Just scroll down a few posts past yours and read the comments.
Mikes Extrems says..Let us fish all day and the best anglers will win. Take some of the luck out of the two fish only crap. Judge boats will solve that issue along with the transport issues.
-Mikes Extreme-Is there anything in the WMT rules that says if a legal musky is caught it has to be registered? If not, why not release the smaller musky and fish for a larger one to register? Roll the dice and work within the tournament format.
Musky Brian says...The photo format seems to be working out just fine from the ones I have participated in and seen...Maybe this will be the spark that finally gets those wheels in motion once and for all
sworrall says...CPR with the boards works very well
-Musky Brian/sworrall-The photo format on the surface may be best for the health of the fish, BUT, Who verifies the “live” release. After all, it is a tournament and in some of them high dollar amounts are at stake. If a fish is not released alive, in many formats that angler and or team is done for the day. I think points are deducted in some circuits as well. Credit or points are given for a verified “live” release.
Travis says...Perhaps a cut into the bottom line (and not for the anglers)???
-Travis-Yes, a definite cut into the bottom line. And if I had job of a tournament director, I would want to make money. Therefore, the cost would probably be passed along to the tournament anglers. I am OK with the tournament directors making as much money as they can and applaud them for the competitive angling venue. As an angler, if I feel the payouts aren’t in line with the entry fee, I wouldn’t fish that tournament.
If the format of the WMT is changed and the great “sticks” are allowed to catch more fish, won’t that lead to higher mortality? More fish caught, more fish handled, etc. etc. Which is better or worse? 2 fish handled, transported, verified live release and the day is done or 8 fish handled and released unverified alive in a CPR format? I don’t know, just asking…I would venture to guess that the more fish that are handled the greater the risk of mortality.
Judge boats are great but costly and on a large body of water given weather conditions can become ineffective.
I get it. Everyone wants the format with the best payout on a fair playing field where we can catch as many as we are able to that won’t harm the fish. Or we are simply anti-tournament.
Choose the tournament format that best suits your needs and ethics and enter them. If the numbers dwindle for certain events, the tournament organization will have to change the format or cease to exist.
Edited by Wisconsin Wade 5/5/2011 10:31 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'If the format of the WMT is changed and the great “sticks” are allowed to catch more fish, won’t that lead to higher mortality? More fish caught, more fish handled, etc. etc. Which is better or worse? 2 fish handled, transported, verified live release and the day is done or 8 fish handled and released unverified alive in a CPR format? I don’t know, just asking…I would venture to guess that the more fish that are handled the greater the risk of mortality. '
I have yet to see a fish that couldn't swim away with either format. I have seen some fairly serious post catch mortality in one event, and it wasn't a WMT.
Short answer is no, and an 8 fish day would be....outstanding; I won't even go into the fact on any other day on the water they are CPRing everything caught, and NOT transporting a single fish. No objections there...right? Look up the average mortality rate on artificials, and decrease that by the fact Muskie tournament anglers are very good and very fast at releasing the fish. Add transport, and call your local biologist and ask why a transported fish is reduced to possession and a immediate CPR'd fish is not.. |
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Location: Lincolnshire, IL | sworrall - 5/5/2011 10:34 AM
'If the format of the WMT is changed and the great “sticks” are allowed to catch more fish, won’t that lead to higher mortality? More fish caught, more fish handled, etc. etc. Which is better or worse? 2 fish handled, transported, verified live release and the day is done or 8 fish handled and released unverified alive in a CPR format? I don’t know, just asking…I would venture to guess that the more fish that are handled the greater the risk of mortality. '
I have yet to see a fish that couldn't swim away with either format. I have seen some fairly serious post catch mortality in one event, and it wasn't a WMT.
Short answer is no, and an 8 fish day would be....outstanding; I won't even go into the fact on any other day on the water they are CPRing everything caught, and NOT transporting a single fish. No objections there...right? Look up the average mortality rate on artificials, and decrease that by the fact Muskie tournament anglers are very good and very fast at releasing the fish. Add transport, and call your local biologist and ask why a transported fish is reduced to possession and a immediate CPR'd fish is not..
This thread morphed into a tournament thread, not any other day on the water, but tournament day on the water, which is much different because money is at stake. So my simple question is.."Who verifies the live release in the CPR format?" You would concur that some badly hooked fish will die not matter how fast they are released...right?
Edited by Wisconsin Wade 5/5/2011 10:56 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Perhaps. Not enough to make it anything other than a random and basically moot objection. Ask Tom how many have died during his competitions TRANSPORTING them before release. 99.999999999999% will swim away.
The issue is-- immediate release is better for the fish than waiting for a judge boat or transporting is.
The WI and MN DNR biologists I have spoken to agree.
Even with immediate release some waters are regulated where putting the fish on a board to measure if it's obviously not a legal is taking possession, and is technically not legal.
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If you livewell the fish at all, in most areas you have taken possession of the fish.
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Location: NE Wisconsin | sworrall - 5/5/2011 6:41 PM
Ask Tom how many have died during his competitions TRANSPORTING them before release. 99.999999999999% will swim away.
99.9999999999999% of deer gut shot with a 30-30 also will run away, but how many survive after a few days. |
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| 99.9999999999999% of deer gut shot with a 30-30 also will run away, but how many survive after a few days. ummm...last time i checked we aren't SHOOTING the muskies. delayed mortality is a real factor and needs to be considered, but it's not the same as THAT. i hope the new regs in Wisconsin push the WMT to change formats. personally, i'd like to see it go to digital photo as it's the most fish-friendly verification method. however it looks, the change will be good for the fish, and i suspect it will actually also be good for the WMT...i know i'll fish more of their events once they do!
Edited by lambeau 5/5/2011 10:10 PM
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Posts: 1220
| The simple fact is that we keep getting better. More folks, read the magazines, follow the message boards, attend the seminars.....they use better equipment able to get a fish right to the boat, have the tools ready to make a good release, better understand the kind of net that allows for a fish to relax a bit better during the struggle. We do a beter job educating anglers to develop an appreciation for the resource and I see little or no opposition among us for the higher size limits that will guarantee a healthier and more challenging musky fishery. We clearly have some pet arguments about tournament regulations and what kind of rod and reel are best for pulling double cowgirls.....but by and large, I sense that even the most tournament skeptical among us sort of know that the guys who are fishing these things are musky guys first, and can make a proper release on the water with pretty much the same sort of efficency that you notice when they simply are putting thier boat in or out compared to the occassional anglers we all have to scratch our heads and wait for at the ramp. I guess what I am saying is that, "We are doing pretty good, basically" and we will do even better! Marty Forman |
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40" size limit