|
|
Posts: 532
| I have seen this thread many times, and each time the topic gets brought up, the thread goes to gear ratio of the reel. Each time i keep thinking about that, people are putting the emphasize on the wrong area, the gear ratio. I want to show you that gear ratio is only a small part of the equation of pulling big blade easily, and i believe that gear ratio people should be least concerned about.
I am going to guess the resistance a dc10 has is 3lbs at med. speed. That was a guess, the number really does not matter for what i am trying to show.
So the work we are doing is pulling 3lbs.
The reel pulling this bait was 3 main components that we need to worry about that have effect on pullin in the bait are
1. reel handle length, this is where our input has the effect.
2. Spool diameter, the bigger the spool dia. the more line retrieved per rev.
3. Gear ratio. how many time the spool spins around for every turn of the handle.
Say we have two make believe reels, both have the same length crank handle
1. 1:1 ratio reel with very large spool dia. has 24inch per rev retrieve.
2. 10:1 ratio reel with very small spool dia. has 24 inch per retrieve
Both reels bring in the same amount of line for each turn of the crank handle, with the same resistance from the bait (3lbs) the effort from the human side would be the same. This example shows that the spool diameter and gear ratio of these two reels offset, even through there were extreme opposites. The gear ratio made no difference in this example. If you want a reel to pull blades easily out of the box, get one with a lower line retrieval per crank.
There is going to be trade offs, if you want a reel that will pull blade easily then get one with a lower line retrieval rate, just know if you want to burn them you will be doing much more cranking in rpms. The turns will be easier but you will be doing more of them, that can be tiring also.
Long crank handles will make your effort be less, but will increase the total movement of your crank to be more. In other words you will have to move your arm more per crank (total inches, the circumference of the circle made from the crank) You will have an easier movement, just be doing more of it, to achieve the same outcome.
I have told you about crank handle length, there is another item you can control about your reel. It would be spool dia. if you want an easier pulling reel for big blades. Put less line on your reel, simple as that. That will change the amount of line picked up for each turn of the crank handle. You will be doing more cranking with less effort, but that might save you from having to buy another reel. It really works great, and it is cheapest way to achieve an easier pull.
Gear ratio is the one thing with our reels we have no way of changing ( yes some can but i am talking easily by the masses). Because buying gears and changing them out isn’t a very economical way of getting a easier pull. I feel people should not worry about gear ratio as much. The Spool dia, and crank handle length are both easily changed why focus on gear ratio?
|
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Can U explain why a ABU 6500 with a 5.3:1 gears and a Shimano Calcutta TE with 5.0:1, I think both have about 25" line pickup for both reels, the TE will pull in a DCG10 with ease and a ABU 6500 takes alot more effort ???? both have the same gear ratio and I think the spool Dia. is the same to. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| Pike, i did a quick look the abu has a 25.5 inch per rev. 2% higher retrieve. I think we all can agree that isnt not a huge factor, but still somthing to consider.
You can not have the same spool dia. and same pick up with different gear ratios. Impossible.
Are the crank handles the same length? Liek i wrote in original post, that is a huge factor in the overall ease of turning the crank, but your doing more of it.
You have also brought up another great point i left out in my original thinking. Internal forces of the reels, there is no way i can take in account the internal condition of anyones reel. You might have a super tuned calcuta te tuned by pikemaster that has very low internal friction and you might have an old worn out abu that has cement in the gears and bearings that has the cast control cranked all the tight.
So inlight of this new information another factor in this is the ridigdty of the the components and internal friction of the system as a whole.
Pike can you agree with this: (two different reels) To bring in a bait 24 inches with one turn of a handle, the work done in the same. Work= Force x Distance. Work being pulling in the bait, force is effort pushing the crank handle, distance is how many inches your hands travels to make one complete turn.
|
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Shimano has what is called HG gearing, here is how it works, The Abu 6500 has a main gear that is 30mm in Dia. and the TE has a main gear that is 38mm in Dia, so on the ABU with a main gear that is only 30mm in Dia the Pinion is alot smaller in Dia. then the TE pinion gear, so the TE will have more power then the 6500. So I see it as 4 factors that make a reel have power and high line pickup, 1 - gear ratio, 2 - spool Dia. 3 - Handle lengh, 4 - Dia of main gear and pinion. That is Y a Trinidad with a high ratio of 6.3:1 will have gears that are 42mm is Dia, and a very large Dia spool and a 105mm long handle can bring in 46" of line pickup and have power to spare. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 209
| I'm glad somebody finally brought this up. I think about this all the time, but I didn't know how many guys on here really thought in terms of physics.
And yes, internal friction is a big part of it. Higher end reels have more solid components, so there's significantly less flex on the inside of reel. Less flex means less friction, and less friction means more of the force you're putting into the reel is transferred into the bait. A good analogy is throwing a pounder with a light rod. When the rod flexes too much, it feels like you're working harder. With a stiff rod, the bait slings right out there. Same goes for reels. If the gears are flexing, it'll feel like you're doing more work turning the crank than if the gears are solid.
TE's pull in big blades easily because they have extremely solid internal components and a longer handle than a C3. And like anzomcik said, handle length is one of the most significant factors.
I was thinking about this stuff a couple weeks ago, so I did a bit of an experiment. I took a Saltist 30 and casually reeled for 10 seconds while counting the number of cranks I did, and I did the same with an Abu c3 6600. Even though the crank is shorter on the c3 (much shorter actually), the number of cranks I did while reeling at a casual speed was almost identical. My theory is that with a short handle, your hand has to turn around a tighter circle to complete a revolution than with a long handle. Think of a car driving in a circle. It's a lot harder to go around a really tight circle than a wide one. Same goes for turning the handle crank. This is why a Trinidad 16 with 46 inches per crank is so good for burning blades. The long handle gives you good leverage against the super high line pick-up, and as I explained previously, long handles don't really impede how many cranks per second you can do. So if you reel at the same pace with a TN16 as with a 400TE, the effort will be about the same, but the bait will be moving a lot faster.
So when it comes down to it, the three things that really matter are line retrieval, handle length, and the rigidness of the internal components of the reel. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 547
Location: Oshkosh | Pikemaster, how big is the main gear on the Toro? I found that it works just fine for double tens as long as Im not trying to burn them.
Peter |
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | WI Skis - 4/16/2011 3:55 PM
Pikemaster, how big is the main gear on the Toro? I found that it works just fine for double tens as long as Im not trying to burn them.
Peter
The Toro has a very large MAIN GEAR 39mm in Dia so the pinion is very large to.
|
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Physics I know nothing about |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| PIKEMASTER - 4/16/2011 4:43 PM
Shimano has what is called HG gearing, here is how it works, The Abu 6500 has a main gear that is 30mm in Dia. and the TE has a main gear that is 38mm in Dia, so on the ABU with a main gear that is only 30mm in Dia the Pinion is alot smaller in Dia. then the TE pinion gear, so the TE will have more power then the 6500. So I see it as 4 factors that make a reel have power and high line pickup, 1 - gear ratio, 2 - spool Dia. 3 - Handle lengh, 4 - Dia of main gear and pinion. That is Y a Trinidad with a high ratio of 6.3:1 will have gears that are 42mm is Dia, and a very large Dia spool and a 105mm long handle can bring in 46" of line pickup and have power to spare.
Your number 4 in your list is the same as your number 1, gear ratio is the compairision of the gears in the system and how they relate.
Example i have a drive gear that is 1" dia and driven gear thats 2" dia. ratio 2:1
I havd a drive gear that is 3" dia. and a drive gear that is 6" dia. ratio 2:1
Same thing, only difference would be weight (needing more torqu to turn) but again i feel that factor is not significant in this case.
So to revise you list,
1. crank handle length, more torque for given effort, but will have to swing the handle a longer distance
2. Line take up per revolution, this is a combo of gear ratio and spool dia. Remember spool dia. is ever changing in this system as the further you cast the lower line take up you have, because the line leaving your spool will make it smaller meaning less dia on the spool, so more power less retrieve.
3. Internal forces in the system, power need to move the system over its own friction
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 209
| Well its physics in the sense that leverage and friction are physics. Believe it or not, I've heard numerous people try to convince me that spool diameter and handle length have nothing to do with a reel's crank power. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| I started this thread to inform people who are buying a reel should not be baising their decision on gear ratio alone. I am glad to see people have also though about the topic also and hope this would help someone out in a decision on buying a reel. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Anzomcik,
It's funny, I brought something similar to this up a while back and it seemed like a lot of people chimed in with opinions and theories, and we never really settled on an answer. I agree that gear ratio means nothing, that it mostly boils down to line pickup per crank and handle length. I'm sure internal friction has an effect too but I can't see it being the main factor.
A few guys talked about the SIZE of the gears making a huge difference but could never explain why that would make a difference. The SIZE of the gears doesn't change the amount of work being done (boils down to gear ratio and spool size), so unless that can have an effect on internal friction I just don't see the size of the gears changing much. My guess is that larger gears can have thicker teeth cut into them, and may be more durable.
My guess is the TE comes with a longer than average handle, which helps a lot. I'm sure the TE is also very smooth, which I think can give the sense of pulling easier.
I have been running Okuma Indurons the last few years. The fairly short stock handle on them made pulling a single #8 a chore. After putting a power handle on them I could pull 10's all day without feeling like it was work at all. A very obvious difference in the work I felt was based on handle length and maybe grip size.
What do all the fast reels that guys use for buring have? Long handles with big grips. I think they have big line pickup, but the long leverage handles make it easier to turn the handle.
Will be interesting to see where this thread goes.
Tucker |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | curleytail - 4/16/2011 8:09 PM ...gear ratio means nothing... C'mon... nothing? Like... zero? zilch? nada? All we need to do is put a big, long handle on any reel in the world and all of a sudden we're going to have a reel that will burn Super Models with ease?? I'm no physics major but something just doesn't add up. I'm more curious right now than anything because let's face it, we'd all love to burn DC10's / 13's with ease... but not all of us have a Trinidad budget. ** EDITED: spelling/grammar. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | Only two specs make a significant difference in perceived effort: Handle length and inches retrieved per crank. Friction is a factor, but let's be honest, in high end reels with properly lubed bearings and gear teeth, it's similar in most reels. Gear ratio means nothing by itself. Bigger main gears and pinions only spread out the force over a larger area of the teeth, which then increases the service life of the gear surface. Oversized gearsets are a nice feature, but they don't affect, in any way shape or form, how hard it is to retrieve a bait.
To simplify what a reel does during a retrieve, imagine 30" per crank as the circumference of a circle. Every time that circle rotates, you have rotated the handle one time. The spool itself has actually turned a few times, due to the gear ratio, but that doesn't matter. Now imagine the circle that the reel handle forms as you rotate it. A handle of 4" in diameter would create a circle of 12.57" or so, which is 4 times Pi (3.1415.....). You are moving your hand 12.57" and moving the bait 30". If you double the size of the handle to 8", and change nothing else, you end up with a circumference of 25.132". This evens out the distance your hand moves compared to the distance the bait moves, which gives you an easier retrieve compared to the 4" handle with a 12.57" circumference. 30/12.57=2.39 whereas 30/25.132=1.19. The lower the number, the easier it is to retrieve. Gear ratios are just a step in the equation that can be skipped if you are given the retrieve per crank.
Hope this helps. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| I believe what curlytail means by "gear ratio means nothing" is when you grab a reel that has x.x:1 ratio printed on its side, that information really does not tell you alot, meaning nothing. Line pick up per crank is what counts, like i said earlier gear ratio is only 1/2 the equation for line pick up per crank, and line pick up per crank is what is felt through your crank handle, not gear ratio
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | Wow.... actually, that's awesome!
OK... simplifying it in that manner DOES make sense. But now I want to do an experiment and see this put into action by myself.  How does one go about finding a "larger" handle for their reel? Has anyone else tried this? Let's say you find the absolute WORST reel for pulling double 10's. Measure the stock/standard handle... and then find your power handle, measure it, utilize the circumference equation that knooter mentioned above and see what it's like.
More importantly, if manufacturer's simply need to put a gigantic handle on their reels (while still being ergonomic)... why bother touting the gear ratio of their product if, in actuality, it means nothing. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| PSYS, this would be a cheap solution previously mentioned. Rather than buying a power handle, spool your reel up to half or 3/4 capacity. This would make your spool smaller in diameter, and make it easier to reel in hard pulling baits. You would have to crank the reel handle faster, but there would be less stress on the reel itself.
Also i hope you are joking about the lookin for power handles... they are sold in many places |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | You didn't answer my question about why manufacturer's tout so many fancy-advertising campaigns about gear ratio if it really does mean nothing... =)
And here's another question, and I'm asking not to be a smart azz but because I honestly am curious.
Revo Toro 60 5.4:1... a decent reel for pullin' in double 10's. burning them? hardly. but it works, right?
Revo Toro 60 Winch 4.6:1... again, a decent reel for pullin' in double 10's and tremendously easier than the aforementioned reel. If I'm not mistaken the handle of both reels are identical. So... if the only difference between these two reels is the fact that they have different gear ratios, why is it easier to pull in double 10's with the reel that has the 4.6:1 gear ratio than it is for the reel that has the 5.4:1 gear ratio. I mean, if gear ratios mean absolutely nothing. =) |
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | The larger Dia. that the main gear is, the larger in Dia. the pinion and so the pinion has about 4-5 teeth that are engaged in the main gear so the pinion has more contact on the main gear, on a main gear like a ABU 6500 or a Induron that has a very small main gear 30mm in Dia. now the pinion gear is smaller and has only maybe 2-3 teeth that are engaged in the main gear, so if U put your Power Handle on a reel like that, with only 2-3 teeth taking all the force to move the main gear, the pinion will wear out very fast, and will sound like a coffee grinder. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 209
| PSYS - 4/16/2011 9:27 PM
You didn't answer my question about why manufacturer's tout so many fancy-advertising campaigns about gear ratio if it really does mean nothing... =)
And here's another question, and I'm asking not to be a smart azz but because I honestly am curious.
Revo Toro 60 5.4:1... a decent reel for pullin' in double 10's. burning them? hardly. but it works, right?
Revo Toro 60 Winch 4.6:1... again, a decent reel for pullin' in double 10's and tremendously easier than the aforementioned reel. If I'm not mistaken the handle of both reels are identical. So... if the only difference between these two reels is the fact that they have different gear ratios, why is it easier to pull in double 10's with the reel that has the 4.6:1 gear ratio than it is for the reel that has the 5.4:1 gear ratio. I mean, if gear ratios mean absolutely nothing. =)
The line pick-up per crank in the Winch is smaller, giving you better leverage over the bait. Just to clarify, if two reels have identical spool sizes, then gear ratio means something. Without knowing the spool size comparisons, gear ratio means very little. Gear ratio means "nothing" in the sense that a reel with a 1:1 gear ratio that gets 30 inches per crank (keep in mind that'd be a huge spool) will have less crank power than a reel with a 5:1 gear ratio that gets 20 inches per crank.
Manufacturers use it as a selling point because that's what people are most familiar with. I honestly don't know how many inches per crank my bass reels get, but I know that a 6.9:1 bass reel is fast, respectively. I think manufacturers will start being more upfront about line retrieval in upcoming years because it's becoming so much more commonplace for a buyer (especially in muskie fishing) to pay attention to that aspect than to gear ratio. |
|
| |
|
| My two cents Worth!
Just a few facts on Spool diameter vs gear ratio!
Line retrieval rate is a product of two factors spool speed and spool diameter.
An example a reel with a 6:1 gear ratio and a 2" diameter spool vs. A reel with a 5:1 gear ratio and a 3" diameter spool. In this case the "faster" 6:1 ratio reel will pickup 37" of line for each turn of the reel handle. The "slower" 5:1 reel however will retrieve approximately 47" of line for each turn of the reel handle. So in terms of how fast the two reels can pickuip line the "slower" 5:1 reel actually is about 27% faster than the 6:1 reel. Don't be fooled by gear ratios - they're only a small part of the overall performance of the reel but also consider spool diameter because it has a lot to do with line retrieval rate. There are other factors also to consider a longer handle will add more torque and increase arm movement per crank, and should be less fatique on you hand and wrist. I went to a longer handle it's a lot more comfortable and easier cranking.
Scott M.
|
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Calculating Line Retrieval Length with Gear Ratio:
U can calculate how much line is retrieved for any given gear ratio with this formula:
Average spool Diameter x 3.14 x ratio = length of line per turn of the handle.
4 example with a 30mm spool diameter and a 5.5:1 gear ratio
30mm x 3.14 x 5.5 = 518.1mm of line pickup which is appox 20.39 inches
No matter what a reel's gear ratio, the evaluation of the ability of the reel to retrieve line is called " IPT Inches Per Turn. This is the amount of line retrieved per turn of the reel handle. This is determined by BOTH the GEAR RATIO and the DIAMETER of the spool, there is a hidden factor, the amount of line on the spool, a full spool will increase Dia. and bring in more line as a spool with less line will have a smaller Dia. and will bring in less line. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| PSYS - 4/16/2011 10:27 PM
You didn't answer my question about why manufacturer's tout so many fancy-advertising campaigns about gear ratio if it really does mean nothing... =)
An honest opinion on why manufacturers tout the fancy adds is because they know for the most part people will not read in to what is really being said. People see those words printed and think they have a value. They are using that as a marketing ploy, i would not doubt they are correct with the ratio printed on the side plate. But when you get to the nitty gritty, the vaule of gear ratio is very small part of the equation, and the one hardest to change.
Example: i seen an add on tv selling cook ware... in the add they touted they use "magnetic stainless steel for the bottom of the pans..." For most everyone that seen that must think "oh it must be good because they said it" When in fact magnetic SS is a cheap grade 400 series SS, that does rust. Also stainless steel has a very poor heat displacing property when compaired to outher materials out there, but in this case it was used for cost savings, and they used it to try to make the product look better. most people do not know the difference.
Do you understand what a few people include myself are trying to explane to you when we say the ratio is a part of line pick up, and line pick up is actually doing to the work?
|
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | I just want everyone to understand why the main gear size is very important in a reel. Look at any new Bass reel the main gear case is enlarged so they can install a larger main gear in Dia. so the pinion is larger and has more teeth that make contact with the main gear. If U put a Power Handle on any reel, U are putting more force on the gears and a small main gear like what is a ABU 6500 will not take that kind force to turn the main gears. Penn reels have small main gears but they are made of S.Steel both the pinion and main. Small Brass gears, it will not take much force to bend the teeth and then sound like a coffee grinder. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| I did a little math on a few reels known
Reel IPT Ratio Cir. of spool Dia of spool
Cu300 28" 6.2:1 4.51" 1.44"
Toro60 26" 5.4:1 4.81" 1.53"
Toro60hs 30.9" 6.4:1 4.81" 1.53"
C3 25.5" 5.3:1 4.81" 1.53"
TE400 25" 5.0:1 5" 1.59"
The cir. of spool is also the amount of line taken up on 1 spool rev. Look the reel withthe lowest ratio te400 take up the most line per spool rev. look to the right, it has the largest spool dia. The diameter of the spool made up for the lower gear ratio.
On all three abus in the list they have the same spool dia. in this case ratio played a part in IPT because all other factors were the same.
The curado has the lowest line take up per spool rev in the group but has the secound highest gear ratio, this is where the spool dia being smaller made the higher ratio actually not have as great as an effect.
Look at it like this, the cu300 brings in 28" per crank, te400 brings in 25". The te is 10% slower in retrieve, but the gear ratio is around 20% slower. Spool diameter made the difference the te spool is about 10% larger.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| To add t owhat PIKE is saying the thickness of the gear is a big factor. So if your reel has smaller gears, just spool up less line! No need for a power handle, less line = more power |
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | anzomcik - 4/17/2011 6:42 AM
To add t owhat PIKE is saying the thickness of the gear is a big factor. So if your reel has smaller gears, just spool up less line! No need for a power handle, less line = more power
Help me to understand this one, if U have 2 reels with both the same gear ratio and the same handle length retreiving in the same DCG10, one reel has a full spool of line and the other say has 50% full spool, why would the one with 50% full spool take less force to bring in ????? Both have the same DCG10 both have the same gear ratio both have the same length handle ???? only the Line Pickup will change. |
|
| |
|
|
It wouldn't take less force, or less effort, it would take more.
I use abu 7000 reels for many applications. Having the spool full means I can reel slower to achieve the same speeds than when the spool is say 1/4 empty.
Reeling slower takes less effort.
With a spool 1/2 full you would need to crank faster to achieve the same line pick-up as a full spool. You would be putting out more effort to achieve the same goal.
The thickness of your line also affects your reel performance. The thicker your line is the emptier your spool is after you cast. As you retrieve you will notice your line pick-up increases as your spool fills up and it takes less effort to bring your lure in.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 209
| PIKEMASTER: having a half full spool will decrease line retrieval like you said, which will increase your leverage over the bait. You will have to reel faster to achieve the same speed (obviously), but the force you have to put on the reel crank is less. A good way to think of it is that you can sort of turn a Revo Toro HS into a Revo Toro Winch by leaving the spool partially full. The only real difference between these two reels is line retrieval, and you could negate that difference by leaving the spool of the HS partially empty. I think it's pretty much universally agreed that the Winch has more crank power than the HS model, which supports the idea that a partially full spool will increase your torque. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| PIKEMASTER - 4/17/2011 8:31 AM
anzomcik - 4/17/2011 6:42 AM
To add t owhat PIKE is saying the thickness of the gear is a big factor. So if your reel has smaller gears, just spool up less line! No need for a power handle, less line = more power
Help me to understand this one, if U have 2 reels with both the same gear ratio and the same handle length retreiving in the same DCG10, one reel has a full spool of line and the other say has 50% full spool, why would the one with 50% full spool take less force to bring in ????? Both have the same DCG10 both have the same gear ratio both have the same length handle ???? only the Line Pickup will change.
With your example, lets put numbers to it.
both reels have a 5:1 ratio (ease of numbers)
full spool has a spool dia of 2 inches
1/2 spool has spool diam of 1 inch.
One crank of full spool will bring in 2x3.14x5=31.4 inchs per turn
1/2 spoll will bring in about 1x3.14x5= 15.7 inches per turn
So in one turn the force needed would be half, however it will move half the distance. So you would need to turn the hadle twice as much to achieve the speed of full spool.
Let take it one step further, say the reel handle length was 3". the 3" is the radious of the circle made by the handle making the turn.
on full spool reel you will have to move the handle 18.8 inches (3" radx2= 6" diax3.14=18.4) so your hand moves 18.4 inches at (guess, i have not checked or work any equations to find real force, i am just using a numaric guess) 5 inch/ pounds of torque.
Now with the 1/2 spool reel your travel of hand would be 37.6 inches of travel, much more travel, but your force being applied is 2.5 inch/pound of torque.
For some people it is easier to do more work that is easier than a harder push for lesser amount. In the end the work done is the same. Everything here is a ratio.
|
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Yes I understand that U will have to reel in FASTER to get the same IPT but it does not take any more POWER to do that, just more SPEED??????? Maybe Physics is coming into play ?????????? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 309
Location: Elgin IL | I bought this Trinidad 16na and filled the spool with 80# power pro and I thought it was real hard to pull in my Double 10s. Then I removed some line (photo) and casted better and reeled in easier. I actually like my old Trinidad tn12 filled up spool better than this reel. If you going to remove line to make it reel in easy why not just get the smaller lighter Trinidad 12 with a full spool.
Has anybody used the new Trinidad 10 12 or 14TNa
Attachments
----------------
 16tna_1.JPG (38KB - 298 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| PIKEMASTER - 4/17/2011 9:47 AM
Yes I understand that U will have to reel in FASTER to get the same IPT but it does not take any more POWER to do that, just more SPEED??????? Maybe Physics is coming into play ??????????
In my previous example i showed you must reel twice as fast to achieve the same speed, but the torque needed to reel was half.
Good example of this is a multispeed pedal bike, first gear is super easy to pedal but you must pedal like a mad man to go "fast", this would be the 1/2 spool reel, easily turned with little foward movment.
now start off in a higher gear (full spool reel) you may need only one pedal to move many feet, but your effort to move that distance is much greater.
Making sence? |
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | OK When I got a Trinidad 16N 3 years ago I filled it to the top of the spool with line and could not wind the DCG10, so I took off 15% of the line from the spool and the reel was alot more easy to wind. Thanks I'm alway open to discuss theory on reels.
|
|
| |
|
|
I can understand the less torque needed with less line. But wouldn't say that it's "easier" at the end of the day to have to reel faster. Personally that makes my wrists/fingers get cramper up more, but not everybody has the same issues physically.
One thing about not filling a spool full is it does affect how well your drag works.
Not sure why, but I'm assuming it's because when the spool is more filled up with line as a fish takes line out it doesn't spin as fast, making your drag work better.
They seem to start smoother and run smoother as well.
JS |
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | JS A full spool of line will not spin as fast going off the spool and will build up less friction/heat in/on the drag washers, GOOD POINT. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| Opening another can of worms, the force needed to turn the hanlde would be less, but you are doing more of it, So that in it self like JS stated could wear you out also. Either way you look at it in physics you are doing the same amount of "work"
With that said at the end of the day i can not tell you which one would burn less calories. That is all up to the user, and everyone is different
About the drag, you will have more drag force with a lower spool. Meaning you will not have to have the drag as tight to have the same effect as a full spool. You will have less smoothness than a full spool also. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 209
| I think this thread is the most intellectual discussion ever to hit muskiefirst. Haha. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 358
Location: London, England | Spool size makes a huge difference in practical fishing terms. A Curado 300, with a tiny spool, filled with 80 or 100lb line will barely move a bait at the beginning of the retrieve on a long cast, as the line level will be so low. Easy to retrieve, but you have to work your hand much faster to get the speed. A reel like a ABU 7000 using the same line and casting the same distance will be moving the bait much faster for the same handle turning speed at the beginning of the retrieve and the retrieve speed will be much more consistent from start to finish that with the smaller spooled reel. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | Actually, do you want to know what this lengthy discussion proves? It proves like most things in musky fishing... you should continue to do what works best for you and what is most comfortable to you. There is no right or wrong answer. Having someone tell me on the forum by the use of mathematical equation that the baitcaster made by Brand XYZ is the best for reeling in DC10's isn't going to make me want to run out and purchase that reel. I don't care what the gear ratio is and how much line pick-up it has per crank... if it doesn't feel comfortable in my hands and if it doesn't feel comfortable to cast with - I ain't buyin' it. Period. So after all this chatter... do what feels best to you.  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 209
| PSYS - 4/17/2011 4:08 PM
Actually, do you want to know what this lengthy discussion proves? It proves like most things in musky fishing... you should continue to do what works best for you and what is most comfortable to you. There is no right or wrong answer. Having someone tell me on the forum by the use of mathematical equation that the baitcaster made by Brand XYZ is the best for reeling in DC10's isn't going to make me want to run out and purchase that reel. I don't care what the gear ratio is and how much line pick-up it has per crank... if it doesn't feel comfortable in my hands and if it doesn't feel comfortable to cast with - I ain't buyin' it. Period. So after all this chatter... do what feels best to you. Â
Agreed. Despite all that I've said about torque advantages, the way a reel fits the hand is more important than anything IMO. A friend of mine has a Trinidad 16 DC, and it's got all the power in the world (honestly, it pulls in 13's like 8's), but I still would much rather use my Saltist 30 because its much more comfortable to cast and hold onto. I don't deny that his reel burns in the big blades better, but I'd rather fish with mine anyways. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| PSYS - 4/17/2011 5:08 PM
Actually, do you want to know what this lengthy discussion proves?...I don't care what the gear ratio is and how much line pick-up it has per crank...
This thread has proved one thing (i believe many will agree also) that even if someone "does not care about gear ratio and line pickup" That person will still feel the need to be a contributing member of the conversation about gear ratio and line pickup, even if they have nothing to contribute.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 116
| PSYS - 4/17/2011 4:08 PM
Actually, do you want to know what this lengthy discussion proves? It proves like most things in musky fishing... you should continue to do what works best for you and what is most comfortable to you. There is no right or wrong answer. Having someone tell me on the forum by the use of mathematical equation that the baitcaster made by Brand XYZ is the best for reeling in DC10's isn't going to make me want to run out and purchase that reel. I don't care what the gear ratio is and how much line pick-up it has per crank... if it doesn't feel comfortable in my hands and if it doesn't feel comfortable to cast with - I ain't buyin' it. Period. So after all this chatter... do what feels best to you. Â
amen....just cast the #*^@ thing and don't worry about it |
|
| |
|
Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | If your hand moves 12" each revolution and picks up 30" with a full spool, then with a 3/4 full spool your hand will STILL move 12", BUT the reel will only retrieve around 22" of line. In this situation, you have moved the handle the same, but moved the bait less. Moving the bait less (or slower) requires less effort. I think that's as simple as it gets. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 349
| My take on this (summarizing):
Overall work that needs to be done is affected by inches per crank. Higher IPT means more work to be done. IPT is controlled by the combination of gear ratio and spool size.
Your arm produces the work by turning the handle and by varying the handle length the work can be interpreted differently. Work done is a torque applied by the user in this case and Torque = force on the handle x length of handle. A longer handle requires less force but has a longer cranking circumference. It feels easier to reel with a long power handle but your hand is moving a greater distance. This part really come down to user preferance. Do you want reel easier or a shorter distance?
A lesser factor is internal friction of the reel parts. This is simply affected by the quality of the reel and quality of components used. Internal components are also what contributes to durability of the reel.
The last factor is gear size and that simply affects the durability and the ability of the reel to withstand high force over a long period of time. Best example is a Trinidad. It has a a large spool and high gear ratio requiring lots of work to be done. The extremely long handle makes it feel easy to reel even with the large amount of work being done. The large gears allow this reel to stand up to the abuse it takes. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 116
| a beautiful summary indeed |
|
| |
|
Posts: 70
| excellent post and excellent read
the poster and replyiers are raising important facts
this has shown me that i have been influienced by marketing again
i have a 6500 with a power handle , which will be removed ,
i will look at my other reels
thanks for the eye opener
bob |
|
| |
|
Posts: 127
| I would argue internal friction is a HUGE differentiator in what makes a reel "easier" to use. The more friction in a system, the more work that is required to overcome the friction, thus the less amount of work input that is actually "input" in the gears working (energy "lost" - my old physics professor would kill me for that one - in the form of heat (ie friction)). Flex of the reel also plays a huge roll in reel "ease."
Reels are best viewed, in my opinion, as a system. No one factor can be isolated from reel to reel as the most important or relevant to ease of retrieve (whether the reel being more efficient or the angler having a better mechanical advantage over the reel itself) because so many other variables change as well. IPT, gear ratio, bearings, line capacity, handle type/size, body material, specific gear alloy, machining techniques, tolerances, ect. all vary from reel type to reel type (not to mention individual differences between identical reels). |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| RStien321 - 4/18/2011 4:12 PM
I would argue internal friction is a HUGE differentiator in what makes a reel "easier" to use. The more friction in a system, the more work that is required to overcome the friction, thus the less amount of work input that is actually "input" in the gears working (energy "lost" - my old physics professor would kill me for that one - in the form of heat (ie friction)). Flex of the reel also plays a huge roll in reel "ease."
Reels are best viewed, in my opinion, as a system. No one factor can be isolated from reel to reel as the most important or relevant to ease of retrieve (whether the reel being more efficient or the angler having a better mechanical advantage over the reel itself) because so many other variables change as well. IPT, gear ratio, bearings, line capacity, handle type/size, body material, specific gear alloy, machining techniques, tolerances, ect. all vary from reel type to reel type (not to mention individual differences between identical reels).
I think i can speak for most people when we used the word friction is was a generic term used as a blanket to cover all internal forces of a reel, an example would be as a incredible amount of flex on a shaft holding a bearing that would cause a misalignment issue, ultimitly increase in the effort need to provide motion to the system. For the sake of typing and explaining thats why i used the word friction.
I completly agree no two reel would be exactly the same, as you stated. Thats why when i started this thread i was going for stickly for theory in the examples and not trying to say this reel is better at resistance baits... granted i did use specific reels in a table but that was strickly hard numbers i pulled from websights and did basic computs to. I wanted to stay neutral in this discussion and not have a war over brands or models, and i think with being neutral a few people learned a little bit, and not take what people say for granted.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | Friction is virtually eliminated in high end reels. Want to see, grab a reel off the shelf with no line on it and spin the handle. As long as the handle is balanced, the spool will spin and spin, requiring virtually no effort.
As far as which is 'easier' for each fisherman, you have to choose whether you like to reel slow and hard (higher line retrieval reels, i.e. Trinidad) or fast and easy (lower line retrieval reels, i.e. Toro Winch). Personally, I have both types. |
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | I know alot of Muskie guys that crank down the CAST CONTROL knob on the right side of the reel tight to help with backlashes instead of pulling out more spool brakes, my cast control knob is on the loose side on all my reels so they will have very little resistist/friction from the Cast Control knob, the tighter the Cast Control knob the harder it is to reel in. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 349
| Yes by friction I was referring to the summation of all internal forces that work against you as you reel. It's a much more difficult parameter to measure and comprehend than simple hard data like line retrieval and length of handle. Internal forces are what would explain the difference between an abu C3 and a calcutta TE which have very similar IPT and handle length. It may very well be a huge factor in the work required to move a bait but it is difficult to compute. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 127
| There's a big difference in friction forces with no line, and friction forces with a large load (IE - twin tens). Friction force will increase as the load increases. Little differences in the store can translate into large differences on the water. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 127
| anzomcik - 4/18/2011 3:40 PM
RStien321 - 4/18/2011 4:12 PM
I would argue internal friction is a HUGE differentiator in what makes a reel "easier" to use. The more friction in a system, the more work that is required to overcome the friction, thus the less amount of work input that is actually "input" in the gears working (energy "lost" - my old physics professor would kill me for that one - in the form of heat (ie friction)). Flex of the reel also plays a huge roll in reel "ease."
Reels are best viewed, in my opinion, as a system. No one factor can be isolated from reel to reel as the most important or relevant to ease of retrieve (whether the reel being more efficient or the angler having a better mechanical advantage over the reel itself) because so many other variables change as well. IPT, gear ratio, bearings, line capacity, handle type/size, body material, specific gear alloy, machining techniques, tolerances, ect. all vary from reel type to reel type (not to mention individual differences between identical reels).
I think i can speak for most people when we used the word friction is was a generic term used as a blanket to cover all internal forces of a reel, an example would be as a incredible amount of flex on a shaft holding a bearing that would cause a misalignment issue, ultimitly increase in the effort need to provide motion to the system. For the sake of typing and explaining thats why i used the word friction.
I completly agree no two reel would be exactly the same, as you stated. Thats why when i started this thread i was going for stickly for theory in the examples and not trying to say this reel is better at resistance baits... granted i did use specific reels in a table but that was strickly hard numbers i pulled from websights and did basic computs to. I wanted to stay neutral in this discussion and not have a war over brands or models, and i think with being neutral a few people learned a little bit, and not take what people say for granted.
I agree with your post completely. Lots of good info in here, and a very product/promotion free discussion. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 209
| I'm probably being repetitive, but friction as I had intended it is friction under a load as RStein said. Without pressure on the internal parts of the reel (in the store), all reels feel smooth. When you apply the resistance of burning a double 10, the components of a poorly constructed reel will flex, which introduces more friction to the system. This friction is only present when reeling in hard pulling baits. That's why reeling in a topraider feels the same with basically any reel, but some reels are much better than others for hard pulling baits. That's also why there's a strong correlation between how long a reel lasts and how easily it pulls in the big blades. If it's difficult to reel in the blades, the components are probably flexing, leading to a short life for the reel. If it's easy to pull in big blades, then the components are sturdy and it lasts longer.
And I'll also throw in that I'm glad this stayed away from being extremely product biased, as mentioned. A guy could actually learn something reading this instead of just being subjected to sales pitches. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1184
Location: Iowa Great Lakes | I have owned alot of reels ver the years and the 2 easiest to reteive DCG's were Shimano Corsair they easiest followed close by the Okuma Iduron neither with power handles. Have used Lunas,Curado, Calcutta B's, Salstist, Toros and none were or are as easy as the other 2 were, they even held up surprisingly well and still have and use the Induron as a spare. No fancy numbers to share just first hand experience and my opinion. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 286
Location: VA | Its like your saying that 1000 hp drag car is going to out pull a 100 hp tractor. Thats just not going to happen. Its all about the gears. Lower gears more torque, the easier a double 10 will come through the water. |
|
| |
|
| My two cents worth
Friction Principles
Friction- is a force on substances in contact with each other that resist motion of the objects or substances relative to each other.
Static Friction - arises between two objects not in motion with respect to each other an example would be a DC-10 laying in the bottom of a pool of water. It increases to counter balance forces that would move the objects up to a certain maximum level of force the bodies will sustain before motion occurs.
Kinetic Friction - arises between to bodies that are in motion with respect to each other as for example the force to pull the DC-10 through the water. Between the DC-10 and the water the Kinetic Friction is usually somewhat lower thus meaning more force is required to set the DC-10 in motion than keeping it in motion.
(Also known as drag)
These friction principles can change if acted on by another force.
(Basic Physics)
For example through a baseball static friction up to the release, kinetic friction as the baseball glides through the air, and the baseball eventually comes to the ground after being acted on by another powerful force called gravity.
Therefore we can interpet friction in many different ways and it can also be used in many different ways in equations also.
Scott M.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 793
Location: North Central IL USA | shaley - 4/18/2011 9:13 PM
I have owned alot of reels ver the years and the 2 easiest to reteive DCG's were Shimano Corsair they easiest followed close by the Okuma Iduron
They don't make the Idurons anymore. Is the Akena a suitable replacement? |
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 |
They don't make the Idurons anymore. Is the Akena a suitable replacement?
The Akena is a entry level reel, I would wait for the Isis or Cedros, should be out this spring /summer |
|
| |
|
Posts: 793
Location: North Central IL USA | PIKEMASTER - 4/19/2011 8:25 AM
They don't make the Idurons anymore. Is the Akena a suitable replacement?
The Akena is a entry level reel, I would wait for the Isis or Cedros, should be out this spring /summer
Copy that. Thanks! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 432
Location: Eagan, MN | anzomcik you're absolutely correct... I posted this same thing quite some time back... line per crank, handle length and maybe a little friction, that's it. One other thing I've noticed, while I love my Shimano reels, none of them have ever retrieved as much line per crank as advertised.... and that includes 400, 700te and t14. Not a big deal but something to consider.
|
|
| |
|
| Pikemaster all I can say is that you know what you are talking about. The following is completely wrong. The amount of force applied is exactly the same whether you have half a spool or a full spool. The force you apply will never change since it is a factor of where the line is attached, aka the spool to its center of mass. You need to over take the lever arm with force to achieve torque to turn the spool. Amount of added force will not change whether the spool is full or empty. These items never change whether we are talking about the distance from the center of the spool to the place where line is attached or the center of the reel handle to the end. If this was the case shimano would make the spool thicker and use less gearing in reels to achieve the amount of torque, not force we need to bring in a bait. When speaking in these terms make sure we use the correct terminology. Force is not the same at torque.
having a half full spool will decrease line retrieval like you said, which will increase your leverage over the bait. You will have to reel faster to achieve the same speed (obviously), but the force you have to put on the reel crank is less. A good way to think of it is that you can sort of turn a Revo Toro HS into a Revo Toro Winch by leaving the spool partially full. The only real difference between these two reels is line retrieval, and you could negate that difference by leaving the spool of the HS partially empty. I think it's pretty much universally agreed that the Winch has more crank power than the HS model, which supports the idea that a partially full spool will increase your torque |
|
| |
|
| 62 posts about gear ratio. you guys have out done yourselves.
some guys think think about stuff way more than they fish and you wouldn't need 62 posts to know. |
|
| |
|
Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | 62 ? wow. - 4/19/2011 9:20 PM
62 posts about gear ratio. you guys have out done yourselves.
some guys think think about stuff way more than they fish and you wouldn't need 62 posts to know.
Your post if it had anything of KNOWLEDGE in it would have been #63, but U are right only 62.  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 339
Location: Denmark | gregk9 - 4/19/2011 10:25 AM
PIKEMASTER - 4/19/2011 8:25 AM
They don't make the Idurons anymore. Is the Akena a suitable replacement?
The Akena is a entry level reel, I would wait for the Isis or Cedros, should be out this spring /summer
Copy that. Thanks!
The new Isis is out already, seen it on Ebay, alternatively you could get a Cardiff to the price of the Akenas. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 793
Location: North Central IL USA | Kille
The new Isis is out already, seen it on Ebay, alternatively you could get a Cardiff to the price of the Akenas.
Good point. Probably be better to get a shimano over a Akena. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 272
| I don't know much about much.......but I do know that I had to use my old school Abu 5000 with the 3.8 stump puller gears to reel in a twin-ten for more than 15 casts without being tired and disgusted. Even at that though, the thing was just barely crawling along.
Picked up a Saltist levelwind this spring on eBay. Couldn't help myself so the other day I was out 'eye fishing and I picked up my stick with the new Saltist on it and clipped on a double 10. Heard enough about this phenomenon and just HAD to find out.
What a difference. 6.1:1 ratio, but the thing pulls 10s in like butter. And fast. And fast AND like butter. It's almost like magic.
Like I said, I don't know much about much, and most of the time I'd rather not, but I do know that this reel is the cat's ass for dragging doubles.
-Eric |
|
| |
|
| I appologize up front if I missed this somewhere, but can someone answer a question for me. Say for instance my current reel is 5.3:1 ratio and picks up 24" of line per handle turn. If a went to a reel that had a 4.3:1 ratio but picked up 26" of line, am I correct in assuming that I would be able to reel my bait faster and with more power than my 5.3:1? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1748
Location: Mt. Zion, IL | Guest,
The two biggest factors in making it hard to reel in are line pickup and handle length. If the line pickup is 24" per turn of the crank and the crank is 3" long from the mounting point, it will be harder to reel than a reel that has 27" of pickup with a 2.25" handle. If you give some ideas as to what reels you are talking about, most of the guys on here can tell you if it will be easier or harder to reel in the bait you are using. |
|
| |
|
| RyanJoz - 7/8/2011 11:45 AM
Guest,
The two biggest factors in making it hard to reel in are line pickup and handle length. If the line pickup is 24" per turn of the crank and the crank is 3" long from the mounting point, it will be harder to reel than a reel that has 27" of pickup with a 2.25" handle. If you give some ideas as to what reels you are talking about, most of the guys on here can tell you if it will be easier or harder to reel in the bait you are using.
I currently have a 6500c3 with standard handle but have a power handle ordered. I was looking at switching to the Alphamar or Saltis. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 582
| All i know is that with my Toro winch, i can pull dbl 10's alot easier (on the same rod) as i can with a Abu 6500. There is no comparison. I think the gear ratio has a part in this. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1748
Location: Mt. Zion, IL | A 6500 in any garcia reel is going to be tough to reel in 10's unless you are lucky enough to have an older C4 WINCH. A Revo Toro Winch or a 7000C3 will be much easier to reel in 10's with. I can bulge 10's with my 7000's easily. The secret with them is to fill them to the spool shoulder. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 532
| Guest - 7/8/2011 12:11 PM
I appologize up front if I missed this somewhere, but can someone answer a question for me. Say for instance my current reel is 5.3:1 ratio and picks up 24" of line per handle turn. If a went to a reel that had a 4.3:1 ratio but picked up 26" of line, am I correct in assuming that I would be able to reel my bait faster and with more power than my 5.3:1?
When compairing those two reels you mentioned you have left out other information that is critical for the question you asked.
1.What is handle length of the reels?
2. Are the spools filled to the same dia. with line?
3. This might negate the first 2 questions, are the reels the same brand and model just different ratios? (this can play in the rigidness of the reels ie. Zebco 202 vs 400TE as an extreme example)
But with out that information, to answer your question I must assume everything is equal. You will not get a faster and morepowerful reel with the 4.6 reel. You will increase the length of line brought in per turn, but it will be harder to do. So if you crank the handle at the same rpm with the 4.3 reel as you would with your original 5.3 reel the bait will be moving faster at about 8% faster, but it would be 8% more effort on your part to do that.
My opinion would be in the real world if you had both of those reels in your boat, both had the same dc10 you would retrieve them at the same speed. But if you videoed it and watched the play back you would see you cranked the 5.3 reel more but it was easier, and the 4.3 took less turns but the effort needed was higher. You must remember the reel turns your human force into a straite line pull, and what you feel as a human is the baits drag in the water, so more retrieve per crank will mean more effort to move at a given speed. So the reel must be looked at as a unit, not just one aspect of "gear ratio"
So the 4.3 reel is a faster reel in terms of inches of line per turn of handle, but a less powerful reel because it is faster. When compairing apples, you cant have faster, and powerful in the same package. Everything is a trade off |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1224
Location: Okoboji | pulling blades sucks with any reel.... get a saltist and if you a player get a trini. |
|
| |
