|
|
Posts: 60
Location: Lake Minnetonka | For those that don't know, the bill to allow spearing on Cass Lake is in the MN legislature again. And considering the representatives that are pushing the bill are the heads of the committees from that area, catering to the well-connected MN Darkhouse Association, I'm guessing it'll probably pass this time even though the DNR and obviously the muskie groups are against it.
We complain that we don't want spearing in that lake after all the time, money and effort was put in over the years to grow not only a trophy muskie fishery, but one of the few trophy northern fisheries in the state. Most of the Cass Lake business community is for spearing because they say they are missing out on the influx of money they would get from this tiny minority of people in the state that spear, I think something like 1-1.4% of license sales. While the muskie anglers represent around 14%.
Why is the business community more concerned with gaining 1% than losing 14%? As a business owner, how could that make any sense? Does that make any sense to you if you were running a business?
Here's why:
How can they take us seriously when the PMTT schedules a tournament in the exact community that has been fighting against us. "Those muskie fisherman sure complain alot...but they'll be back."
This is nothing against the people that have been fighting for us to stop this type of thing and doing other things like getting more lakes stocked. I personally know they have been putting in long hours. But as long as we, the average muskie fisherman are all talk, plan on losing these battles just like only getting 2 of 5 new lakes stocked. |
|
| |
|
|
How do you know that "most" of the community is for lifting the ban?
If the muskie community simply quits going to Cass Lake than it would appear that what happens to the muskies doesn't matter, 'cause we aren't going to use that fishery anyway.
Not giving business to places we know want to lift the ban is one thing.
Boycotting the entire area is another.
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 60
Location: Lake Minnetonka | As with anything JS, it's obvious that it isn't 100% one way or the other, and should go without saying. I will happily continue to support those business that are against lifting the ban. I would like to know who those businesses are and to see them be more vocal. The same way the Mayor and other businesses that are for lifing the ban made themselves known when they testified last year.
I would love to hear how else you propose to show that we are actually serious? Because holding a tournament there obviously doesn't send that message.
Edited by PostFrontal 3/26/2011 2:02 PM
|
|
| |
|
| I would love to hear how else you propose to show that we are actually serious? Because holding a tournament there obviously doesn't send that message. Holding a tournament there AND patronizing only businesses that support the ban will send a very loud message. Especially if the organizers of the PMTT were to send a letter to all contestants urging them to do so, and providing a copy of that letter to the Chamber of Commerce. |
|
| |
|
|
Taking your toys and leaving the playground isn't sending a message or taking the hight road. It's just leaving.
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | I have a list of all the businesses that are in favor of lifting the ban. I will make sure participants of the PMTT gets this. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | I will boycott any business that is for lifting the spearing ban on Cass,
resorts, restaurants, bars, convenience stores, bait shops, grocery stores, Casinos, gas stations,.....ect.ect. ect...... and I'll do it without being smug, self righteous, or rubbing it in their nose, kinda way.
I'll show support with my money.
I'd love to have a list thats for the spearing ban.
Jerome
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Post your email address and I will send it to you. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 60
Location: Lake Minnetonka | Kevin-that is a great idea. Especially sending the letter to the Chamber of Commerce so they know what is going on. I wonder if Muskies Inc would do the same thing with the Frank Schneider Tourney...
Alot of friends and I fish the lakes in that area, and I wonder if you would be open to posting that list on here, if you can, so we can all see it?
Thanks~ |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2
| [email protected]
Thanks Kevin, see you Monday night. |
|
| |
|
| Kevin, I end up in the Cass area several times each summer and will be fishing the PMTT. I'd like to see that list.
[email protected] |
|
| |
|
Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Ok when I get home tonight it will go out. |
|
| |
|
| Fred Teal, Teal’s Super Value 218 335-2249
Dean Phillips, Froggy’s Sports 218 335-6800
Steve Ballou, Break on the Lake Resort 218 335-2422
Scott Reimer, Reimer’s Marine 218 335-8835
John Budreau, 371 Café 218 335-2687
Robert Farte, Cass City Pawn 218 335-8441
Timothy Zuelow, Whispering Pines Motel 218 335-8852
Pat Brown, Clem’s Hardware 218 335-6551
Larry Leisner, White Pines Construction 218 556-3474
Ken Bruns, A & B Wild Rice 218 335-8554
Brad Tweten, Cass Lake Condo Association
Jim Bullinger, Mckinnon Co. Inc.
John Low, Sunset Cove Resort 218 335-2480
John Newmann, Headwaters Electric Bemidji 218 444-2613
Mike Bennett, Big Tap Bar and Grill 218 335-2519
Cory Frazer, C & K Guide Service 218 760-2894
Larry Knopp, Junction Bar and Grill 218 335-6324
Marylin Glass, Chucky’s Chicken 218 335-8412
Rick Baird, Cass Lake Metal Craft 218 335-2336
Randy Vickre, Sea Rover Inc.
Steve Loeffler, Austin Properties Cass Inc.
Randy Ellis, Chris Ellis, Carl Ellis, Ellis Construction 218 368-8553
Larry Rifeler, Western Bank 218 335-4131
Lynn Wimme, Lakes Region Insurance 218 335-2473
Mike Thar, MJF Repair Inc.
Jerry Finn, Cass Lake Mini Mart 218 335-2027
Tim Reiplinger, Highland Inn Seasonal Park 218 335-2610
Mike Anderson, Plumbing and Heating
Gary Gehrke, Bill’s Alignment 218 335-6300
Skip Finn, Palace Junction C Store 218 335-2655
Jay Reiplinger, J & L Oil 218 335-2274
Donny Ellis, LeRoy’s Minnows 218 335-6541
J & L Drywall
Norm Penning, R & R Lawns
Terry Larson, Northern Adventure Guide Service 218 335-2078
Darrel Larson, Sail Star Marine 218 335-2316
Vern Barsness, Green Grove LLC 218 760-2142
Jim Bowley, Stoney Point Resort 218 335-6311
Bill Ausk, Auskers LLC H 218 335-6971
Great River Pizza 218 339-7609
|
|
| |
|
| Guest, please clarify. Are those businesses for lifting the ban(business we don't want to support) or are they for keeping the ban in place(businesses we support)
Edited by Ben Olsen 3/26/2011 8:32 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Not sure who posted but this was the list that I was given of people that are for the ban being lifted and should not be given any business by muskie anglers. Feel free to send this to others that vacation/fish in the Cass Lake area. Anglers fishing the PMTT should be given a copy of this list as well. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Another thing to note that Break on the Lake and Sunset Cove are the only resorts that want this. |
|
| |
|
Location: Northern Wisconsin | kevin cochran - 3/26/2011 8:48 PM
Another thing to note that Break on the Lake and Sunset Cove are the only resorts that want this.
Stoney Point Resort as well |
|
| |
|
Posts: 540
| notice that two fairly known baitshops are on there as well, I dont see how they would benefit from this much, possibly sell more suckers for decoys but I doubt it, I know I've bought suckers from froggy's for fishing ski's but I won't be anymore!!! there is even pics of him all over in there holding up big ski's, I don't get it??? |
|
| |
|
| Please don't take this the wrong way. But you can tell most of these comments are from people that don't know much about the area. Cass Lake is a small town, and when I look at the list I see the only grocery store, the only places to get bait, the only places to eat. So I'm just wondering if you are all going to boycot these places where are you going to go? I know you can go to other towns, but you say you will support other places in town. That being said I live on the lake and don't kow I would vote on this issue. I love musky fishing, and I love spearing. The only complaints I hear is that spearers will kill the muskys. I don't think that is true, if someone did it is illeagal and should be handled seperate. How can u ban a sport based on illeagal activity. Don't we have people breaking the law in all sorts of fishing and hunting, we can't just ban all our outdoor sports based on a few idiots doing wrong. Should we ban all summer fishing because a walleye fisherman might kill a musky out of spite. Sorry for the rant, not trying to start anything just don't know wich side I support. |
|
| |
|
| I see you have Sunset cove on the list but on another post someone says he is musky inc guy and supports the ban. I'm confused. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1220
| OK..here's goes my popularity on the Winternet! First I will say this. I don't like spearing fish, the idea that it would be a musky is especially sickening to me. Secondly, I don't usually get into the pollitical debates on the boards, I'd rather be a little on the funny side and a lot on the friendly side. I like hating the Vikings, like reccomending the Zebco 101 as the true reel for pulling doubles, love to talk about being a "big" tournament guy who doesn't win any tournaments and even will talk about my "rod" losing it's stifness but still wanting to be out there in the boat looking at the Bikini parade on the docks. I love the posting and the banter, and I especially love when somebody slips up and lets out a secret that will put a couple more fish in my boat. But....I don't like seeing this list of names. I don't like it at all. There is just no place for making a list of people who you think should lose the ability to feed their family because they don't agree with you. Even worse to see a list published by a guy named "guest." So, you know who I am, I am putting my name here, I'll be at the Cass event with the PMTT, I promise you will not see me do anything that will harm your fishery, act in an unsportsmanlike manner, operate my boat unsafely or rudely, or fail to stop my tournament fishing to help you if you are in trouble.....but I really don't like you guys putting up a list like this, don't see why Steve allows it when he is so quick to get rid of stuff a lot tamer, and if it continues I think it diminishes us as a group. There is a political process for this stuff, if you ask I'll even donate money for it, but a society that lists the names of people who deserve to be punished for what they believe eventually builds camps of some sort to house them....just doesn't sound like America to me. Marty Forman |
|
| |
|
| ...just doesn't sound like America to me. it's simply information, Marty. those people publicly signed onto the effort to lift the ban, and it's the very definition of "American" to publicly talk about opinions and encourage each other to act. that should be done in a civil manner, and i don't hear anyone suggesting anything other than looking for other places to spend money. there are other resorts and hotels available in or near Cass Lake. it would be helpful to also list those folks who oppose lifting the ban; thus encouraging people to seek them out and support them with business. i'm up in that area quite a bit every year, both in the summer and in the winter. i'd like to know it and i will spend my money accordingly. |
|
| |
|
| Marty, I posted the last 2 posts, not the list. I didn't meen anything against Sunset in the last one I was trying to make the point that if people post something they should get their facts straight. I support these places in town wether they are on the list or not. I agree with you these guys are just trying to make a living, and I support them. Sorry for the misunderstanding. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1220
| Obviously more than one person using the name "guest." Go ahead and register, I think it's free! Marty |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | PostFrontal - 3/26/2011 1:59 PM
Kevin-that is a great idea. Especially sending the letter to the Chamber of Commerce so they know what is going on. I wonder if Muskies Inc would do the same thing with the Frank Schneider Tourney...
Thanks~
We did make a change because of this. We used to host the Friday and Sat night events at the local Legion. It's run by the Mayor who was also pretty instrumental to lifting the ban. We took that business to one of the resorts that wasn't a part of CLIFS. So the business that supported the ban lost thousands in revenue and the one who was against it benefited. That's exactly how America works: people have the power of their checkbooks. If the consumer doesn't like your business there's always another one that is willing to fill the gap.
To note, the number of people fishing Cass last year was down by over 1/2 from what I saw. I know that some of the resorts that supported the ban were calling saying they had plenty of room. Once they started to figure out why people were avoiding their businesses they were trying to do and say anything to get back into our good graces again.
For those that don't know, the Frank tournament was originally created by one of our founders who was on the MN tourism board to basically give the resorts in that area another weekend of "summer business." That's why it's always been the weekend after Labor Day. I get the feeling sometimes that some of the resorts either don't know this or take it for granted that we come up in droves year after year. I think some on Cass are starting to realize it though. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1184
Location: Iowa Great Lakes | I don't think they want the ban lifted to spear muskies but to spear the big pike that have been protected for 20 years. This is a pike issue and should be stopped for sure, one of the few true trophy potential pike waters left in MN. The speares want the ban lifted for 1 reason only BIG PIKE.... I don't spear or fish the area but if I decide to fish the area anyone for the lifting of the ban won't see me in their place. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32920
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Marty,
As to why we allow the posting of this list:
From what we can tell it's accurate and these folks are not a bit afraid to be identified as supporting the lifting of the ban and openly support spearing Pike on Cass.
If the list isn't accurate, it will be corrected.
We'd like to see the list of those opposed and willing to say so. Can someone please post that list?
People may encourage support/non support of the businesses that are on either list as long as the discussion remains civil. I know I'm interested in the who, what, where, when, why, and how of this story.
OFM's editorial position?
This issue should not be decided upon by politicians listening to their constituents; fish and game management will forever be too 'hot' to handle in that manner and end up being what's right for the resource. The MNDNR should be solely responsible through the processes they have in place working with advocacy groups of all descriptions for selecting waters for conservation and placing regulation, based upon biological reality and their interpretation of the need (or lack thereof) to create and maintain trophy Pike fisheries and protected Muskie populations. When fisheries management ends up micromanaged by legislators, the entire process is bastardized.
Our only serious concern hasn't materialized; that the PMTT might take undue heat for hosting an event on this water. We do not believe they are in the business of politics. If the contestants are good with fishing Cass, then the event should be run as the PMTT sees fit; the argument those who support the ban have is not with those who wish to fish muskies on Cass, it's with those who want the dark houses out there in the winter.
The anglers should make up their own mind as to where they spend the dollars they bring into that community, and if they object to the event there, they can choose not to fish it.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 60
Location: Lake Minnetonka | Since I don't live up there, but do fish there, I would like it if someone could verify this list to make sure that it is accurate.
Walker is right down the road for those businesses that aren't in Cass Lake.
As a business, if you want to step out and be for or against an issue, that is a consious business decision You need to be accountable for that desicion whether it will be good for business, or there are consequesnces and repercussions. This decision isn't being made by the DNR who is supposed to be making these decisions. It is already being done in the political arena with a certain agenda. While we have a voice through various muskie organizations and the DNR testifying this has fallen on deaf ears. There is no referendum where we are allowed to vote on this. It is being rammed through. How is that American? What is more democratic and American than supporting those groups and causes that support what you are for? And not supporting those that don't? Do you send money to the NRA and PETA?
There is nothing wrong with posting a list of business that are against a cause that we are for. They made their views public already. If you choose to still to do business with them or not is up to you. Noone is making anyone do anything. It's a personal decision. What I do know is that up to this time, people from the Muskie Alliance, Muskies Inc and others have put in long hours trying to fight things like this, as well as, other issues for us muskie fisherman.
Doing this about the Cass Lake spearing issue isn't just about Cass Lake. We need to show them that as muskie fisherman we are a group that needs to be taken seriously. They absolutely don't take us seriously now. What about the next issue that they don't want to listen to the facts and DNR about like stocking more lakes? Or taking money from the muskie stocking program that made Minnesota one of the best fisheries in the nation, to pay for another new park or walking path in Brainerd.
I know we as "the average muskie fisherman" (from my original post) need to start supporting what those from Muskies Inc, Muskie Alliance and others are doing for us with our actions. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1220
| Steve,
As you can see with no problem, we are not on opposite sides of the issue itself. In fact, with my notoriously sick sense of humor, you can hardly imagine the stuff I am tempted to say about what kind of stuff goes on in "dark houses" with guys playing with their "spears." I just don't like the LIST. Way too easy to have a wrong name on a list, way too easy to attract a guy you would regret doing something to someone on a list, way to easy to have an astronaut's wife get shot in the face because she got on a list of "targeted Democrats" when the people who were "targeting" her only meant she should get voted out of office...not targeted with a bullet. Gossip is like a feather pillow that got opened up in the wind...finding all the feathers and putting them back in the pillow is a tough job when you find you might have included a wrong name on one of the feathers. Marty |
|
| |
|
Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | This list is straight from CLIFS. Cass Lake Initiative for Spearing. |
|
| |
|
| Thanks for posting this list |
|
| |
|
Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | So, Is there a positive list of businesses that support keeping the spearing ban.
I don't feel anti American when I support things that are good and beneficial to others or conserving a Trophy water system.
Like someone said,... its my money to spend as I choose, and I won't support places that want to spear more fish on Cass Lake.
Has nothing to do with being a good American , and everything to do with knowing who your going to side with.................... Me,.............. I'm siding with the hard working folks that want to protect Cass Lake Trophy Muskie and Pike fishery.
Jerome |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| When you support something publicly, and you attach your name to it, you take the risks associated with that position. In this particular case, ot's loss of revenue from people who don't agree with your stance.
While the idea of a publicized list of names of people whose businesses you should not support leaves a bad taste in my mouth? This is how things get done. If you can't appeal to someone's sense of "greater good"? You appeal to their sense of financial self preservation. If the people in question want our financial support? To some degree they have to play by our rules. |
|
| |
|
|
Personally I think banning spearing based on the presumption it will affect the muskie population is wrong. It is already illegal to spear muskies.
We don't ban deer hunting in certain areas because some people may or do poach deer.
I do feel Cass lake has benefited from the ban as far as having a healthier pike population. If the ban is lifted there should be a slot put in place that will be similar to some of the changed slots this year, which would allow spearers to more easily identify and spear smaller pike for the table.
This should be a pike issue, not a muskie issue.
I think a lot of people are sitting on a pretty high horse regarding this one.
John Skarie |
|
| |
|
Posts: 60
Location: Lake Minnetonka | Kellet, if you have time, would you please give a synopsis of the reasons why you and others have spent countless hours fighting the lifting of this ban so we can all be on the same page? |
|
| |
|
|
The DNR has said, and I have heard this from Bob Strand himself.
Banning spearing on Cass had little or no affect on the overall muskie population.
The population increased in density during the ban primarily from the practice of C&R gaining popularity in the 80's and even more so in the 90's.
More fish will die from us letting them go on Cass than would die from the spear.
I would be my house on that statement.
This should be fought as a pike issue, and not waged as a war from a muskie standpoint. |
|
| |
|
|
Forgot to sign off on the last one.
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| John, have you thought about the fact that maybe the muskie anglers of the world also want to see the pike populations protected? I think most would agree that when it comes to conservation issues, it doesn't matter whether it's pike, muskies, walleyes, or any other sport fish. We just want to see things moving forward and not backward... |
|
| |
|
Posts: 313
Location: Bemidji, Lake Vermilion | Yes John, it is a pike issue. But its also an ecological balance issue and if in short order the population structure of northern pike in the lake gets whacked, it could have ramifications to everything in the lake from baitfish to panfish to muskies and everything else. I also have heard from a DNR official (unofficially) that there is expected to be little to no impact to the muskie population but that there is certainly fear of the pike population being significantly affected in not very many years (3-5). Doesn anyone know the short or long term affects? No. I think many of us would rather not find out to begin with. I only ask that the DNR be allowed to make the decisions about proper fish and game management and not politicians. |
|
| |
|
| Reasons to fight the Ban being lifted legislatively are basically like a buckshot spread. Its long so just skip it if you really dont care.
1 Muskie size and numbers started going up beyond that of Leech lake (the only similar lake) within 10 years, while angler attitude and regulations on size were the same the fish came back on Cass.
2 Big Pike, this is the reason they want to get back on without a doubt, they want to spear Big Pike.
3 Will Muskies be speared both by accident and on purpose? I believe that 99.9% would never intentionally spear a Muskie although having the name of the guy that attacked Frank on the supporters list makes me uneasy.
4 The DNR supports the ban because it is a true trophy Muskie Lake as well as a trophy Pike lake, it maintains this without any special regulations for any species.
5 As the lake is there are as I mentioned no special regulations and no stocking of any species on the lake; its totally self sustaining and becoming one of our top Walleye lakes as well.
6 Its a top 10 requested lake on the lake finder, its the only one without special regs other than the ban that also receives no stocking.
7 Recent creels 2008 and 2009 report 15,000 and 23,000 hours targeting MUE or about 9% and 14% respectively. Of course a lot of fishing pressure occurs before MUE season. In the peak months for MUE fishing here is the percent of parties reported seeking MUE, July 16%, Aug 20%, Sept 12%, Oct 28%. I'm afraid this will suffer and less people will come to Cass lake. This is also a concern of those pushing this legislation, they know the money is in Muskies when everyone else goes home.
8 The northern population has good numbers of fish in the 26 to 30 inch size range, with a stable or improving size structure.
9 A DNR modeling study shows that if the ban is lifted on Cass without a Slot the harvest of Pike would increase 52% with a reduction of fish over 30 inches equaling 40%.
10. There are better ways to communicate than through the legislature that would have not caused all of these social problems, we have as recently as a couple weeks ago reached out to the Darkhouse assn. through a mutual friend to have some discussions about this issue and the others we have. He was told they were give the authority to use the legislature to do what they want so that's what they are doing.
There will be no winners and more animosity to each group, that is something they want and desire so they can try to add members, they want to paint us as trying to ban spearing and killing their sport.
Truth be told they are dying on their own as told by their legislator Sen. Bill Ingebrigtsen, R-Alexandria, "I represent what I think is a dying sport in Minnesota,'' he told the Senate Environment and Natural Resources Committee, which he chairs. They creating enemies within their own ranks because of their anti-Muskie tactics to stop Muskie stocking and push to remove the regulation we have worked on to make MN Muskies what they are.
Do I want to see spearers gone? NO. Have I or any of the Muskie reps ever done anything to stop or Ban this sport in the past 20+ years? NO. I would like to be able to get beyond the petty $#!+ that is I believe going to do no good for any of us, so till then I sit and wait, for the 1% of spearers that wants to spear Muskies, have no regulations or restrictions, wants to remove all of our Muskie regulations, its states to stop stocking Muskies and we wont need a lic increase (all of which has been declared publicly and through actions, in person at their meetings, public meetings and legislatively; all by the leadership), to talk to people that want to enjoy spearing some Pike for the table, people that want to see spearing live into perpetuity.
So to answer the question, Can spearing be done with little or no damage to the Pike and Muskie population? I think so; as long as everyone understand the need to protect each species to a degree. As its written it will cause allot of problems.
20 years ago along with the spearing Ban; it was negotiated that Muskies would be total C&R, but that fell apart. I think is still a bit of an issue with those folks today.
Told you it was going to be a long one
|
|
| |
|
|
Pretty sure I said the pike population should be protected by a slot if the ban is lifted.
As muskie anglers making this a muskie issue will do nothing but hinder our efforts to expand the numbers of muskie lakes. The spearers will lock horns with us any way they can.
This needs to be publically addressed as a pike concern, which is very legitimate as it is one. There are many muskie anglers out there who profess they are against spearing on any muskie lake and also those that are against spearing altogether. I think that attitude is counterproductive to our muskie interests, and doesn't address the real concern of what spearing can do to a trophy pike population. The MMA has supported not implementing any future spearing bans on new muskies waters, and shouldn't be opposed to this ban being lifted if the pike population can be protected to keep it a trophy pike fishery.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 313
Location: Bemidji, Lake Vermilion | JS - I'm certain someone will correct me, but the advocates of opening the spearing up are also adamantly opposed to allowing a restrictive/protective slot to be put in place to protect the pike. In addition, I believe they are trying to significantly reduce the number of special regulations on Pike statewide as well as to possibly remove any slot adherance for darkhouse angling (spearing). These statewide changes are a lot scarier than just opening up Cass Lake to spearing. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | I think Robert Farte at Cass City Pawn should be supported. With that name, he's had an uphill battle his entire life. |
|
| |
|
| Yes they want to be an elite group of outdoorsmen with no regulations or restrictions (they call us elitists), a group that is more concerned about Muskie season closing on Dec 1 than even stocking new lakes. They feel Muskie angler should be able to fish for or harvest fish in the winter. In other words knock down one more barrier for them to spear Muskies.
Thats the admitted end game. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| Moltisanti - 3/27/2011 6:47 PM
I think Robert Farte at Cass City Pawn should be supported. With that name, he's had an uphill battle his entire life.
|
|
| |
|
|
Thrax;
There are those that are opposed to slots and are trying to say that spearers should not have to adhere to those rules. The logic there is so ridiculous I don't even know where to start with that.
That is another battle that should be addressed seperately. The focus here should be to protect the large pike on Cass for the sake of the fishery and for fisherpeople who want to be able to actually catch pike that aren't hammerhandles.
Supporting a slot on Cass if the ban is lifted should be our main concern. If the spearers want to make that another battle than so be it. Eventually the insanity of them opposing regs that will improve our fisheries will work against them.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | I agree that the spearers are very afraid of having their sport banned completely. They should be for good reason - there are a lot of people who would like to see spearing banned.
I believe the spearers are mistaking a big mistake if they think its only some Muskie anglers that do not like spearing. My experiences indicate that there is a large percentage of all fishermen that do not like spearing. I have seen spearers get chastised by people who were fishing sunfish and know a number of Walleye and Bass fisherman that cannot stand the thought of spearing gamefish. I grew up in central MN where many Northern Pike fisherman simply hated the spearers because of the number of large Pike killed by the spearers every winter.
The fact is that spearing is a "kill only" sport. Its not like fishing where most fish can be released to live another day. That alone bothers a lot of people whether they have any interest in Muskie fishing or not.
I believe that the greatest danger to spearing is not other fishermen. Rather, it is the animal rights groups that believe spearing should be banned because they believe it is cruel and barbaric in nature. If the animal rights people ever decided to campaign against spearing, the darkhouse people could be in big trouble. Their little 1% of the fishing population could easily be overwhelmed by a well-funded campaign.
I believe the spearing organizations are making a big mistake by pushing legislation aimed at expanding spearing. While legislation may expand their spearing opportunites, legislation could also restrict it or ban it altogether. Once the legislative ball starts rolling, there is no way to know where it will end up.
Just my viewpoint. |
|
| |
|
| Honestly, If the majority of people want to allow spearing on Cass, it should be allowed. Isn't that how this whole thing called democracy works? Majority vote? All that sort of good stuff. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | That is a good point. The majority should rule on this issue. If a majority wants spearing, then fine. And if a majority want to ban spearing altogether, then that should happen too - correct?
It is actually a very small, but very vocal, group of that is pushing to allow spearing on Cass. They may have the backing of some in the legislature, but that support is thin and could flip on a moments notice.
I believe that the danger that the spearers are bringing onto themselves is awaking the people who don't like spearing. Before the Pearl Harbor attack on Dec 7, 1941, there were some in the Japanese miltary who were warning against attacking the USA. They feared doing so would only awaken a sleeping giant that would, in the end, defeat them. And that is exactly what happened.
In the same way, the spearers may now be awakening a sleeping giant in the majority of people who don't like spearing. Once that sleeping giant awakens and begins to move against them, who will come to their defense? The Muskie fishermen? No. The Walleye fishermen? No. Bass fishermen? No. The few in the legislature that support them now? Not likely.
The spearers may very likely be sowing the seeds of their destruction. They are currently alienating those that may be their greatest allies, (other fishermen), while awakening those who are their worse enemies (the animal rights groups). Not a good idea.
Just my view. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I couldn't have said it better myself Herb. |
|
| |
|
| Guest - 3/28/2011 10:00 AM Honestly, If the majority of people want to allow spearing on Cass, it should be allowed. Isn't that how this whole thing called democracy works? Majority vote? All that sort of good stuff. NO. Majority vote should NOT decide issues where expertise is required.
We can all have and express our opinions, but there's very very few of us who know anything at all about professional fisheries management. The DNR should be allowed to manage the fisheries without interference from legislators. You'd like them to listen to input from the end users, but ultimately the decisions should be theirs to make. Believe me, you do not want anything to do with a "democratic" conservation congress system like Wisconsin uses. |
|
| |
|
| I think you're missing the point. You're going for the old ,"they're going to protect us from ourselves" mentality. The fisheries are managed for the people. If the majority of people want to be allowed to spear a lake, they should be allowed to. Then, once the majority has decided, it is up to the DNR to implement rules and regulations for managing the fishery based on wha the Majority decides.
I'm not even for spearing. I just think that the majority should be able to decide as long as it is within the confines of the law. Last time I checked, spearing wasn't Illegal in Minnesota. No matter how much we disagree with something, we need to let issues be decided by vote. Its the only fair way. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| Guest...
So if the majotiry of folks think muskies are going to eat all their walleyes, than the DNR should stop stocking them? Or suppose the majority of people think there should be no size slot or creel limits for walleye? Should the DNR then taylor their management practices to the majority? What of the majority of folks think there should be no closed seasons to protect spawning fish?
You have to remember two things here:
1. The majority of folks just have their own self interests at heart. The quality or sustainability of fishieries is something they likely don't understand and don't care about.
2. The majority of folks have no IDEA what the best approach is to something like this. They are driven by emotion, greed, selfishness, and something they heard at the bar the other night.
Just because an idea is popular, does NOT mean it's a good idea. With this, and many other issues, rules and regulations are (and should be) decided by the folks who actually KNOW what they are doing, and NOT by the majority, who likely knows little if anything about the subject. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32920
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | You want what's 'fair' according to a 'majority' vote to determine fisheries and game management?
Be careful what you ask for. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Watch out guest or else the sunfish people could put a halt to muskie and walleye stocking whenever they want since sunfish is targeted by the most anglers in the state. Just saying... |
|
| |
|
| With that kind of logic,I suppose we should simply due away entirely with the whole democratic process in this country. So based on your second point, it would probably be a good idea for people who knew nothing about U.S. foreign policy, nuclear energy, global warming and cooling cycles, as well as almost every other issue to never participate in a presidential election again? So unless youre a retired Four Star General, nuclear physicist, and ecologist you don't have an educated opinion about any of this stuff?
Seriously, the average voter knows next to nothing on any of these issues, but yet we vote for people based on their opinion of them. We elect people, to make decisions on these issues, that know nothing about it. Ever think about that? Politicians are well versed in one area, manuevering around the law. Yet, we have politicians deciding about issues such as health care, foreign relations, and science.
Look at your first point. "The majority of folks just have their own self interests at heart." And what is your stock in this? I'm guessing that based on your screen name, you have your own self interests at heart.
Just curious, in your opinion, what makes someone credible enough to have an opinion about this? Do they need to be a fish biologist, an ecologist, seasoned angler? Or do they just have to agree with you? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32920
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hey, back off a little.
No one said opinions are the issue.
It's an extraordinarily bad idea to invite special interests to override the management of State managed fisheries by bypassing the experts who have been hired to do that job (not elected...and that's an important distinction); the legislature has no business managing fisheries or wild game.
And no, no one has to agree with me or anyone else here, but I'd suggest a far more compelling argument than what you presented if you want folks to agree with you. I didn't let my KIDS get by with the 'But, EVERYONE is doing it, why can't I?'
Presidential elections are, by their very nature, up to the general public to decide. That's why they call 'em 'elections'.
Fish and game management in any State shouldn't be.
As you know ( or at least should know, based on where you are posting from) Wisconsin has the Conservation Congress. I think MN should be happy they don't. |
|
| |
|
| I would seriously challenge you to find an issue that, given enough time, did not come out in favor of what the vast majority wanted. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 313
Location: Bemidji, Lake Vermilion | Steve, thanks for making the important distinction between elected and hired (between legislators and DNR employees).
Wink Wink Guest - I have a BS degree in Aquatic Biology from Bemidji State University (right next to Cass Lake) and have lived here in the greater Bemidji/Cass Lake area for 22yrs. I fish Cass Lake all the time.
I'll appreciate my own thoughts on this one! Plus other professional or at least well informed thoughts! Just not the thoughts of politicians who have no business doing an "end run" around the DNR on MN fisheries management. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| Guest - 3/28/2011 9:08 PM
With that kind of logic,I suppose we should simply due away entirely with the whole democratic process in this country. So based on your second point, it would probably be a good idea for people who knew nothing about U.S. foreign policy, nuclear energy, global warming and cooling cycles, as well as almost every other issue to never participate in a presidential election again? So unless youre a retired Four Star General, nuclear physicist, and ecologist you don't have an educated opinion about any of this stuff?
Seriously, the average voter knows next to nothing on any of these issues, but yet we vote for people based on their opinion of them. We elect people, to make decisions on these issues, that know nothing about it. Ever think about that? Politicians are well versed in one area, manuevering around the law. Yet, we have politicians deciding about issues such as health care, foreign relations, and science.
Look at your first point. "The majority of folks just have their own self interests at heart." And what is your stock in this? I'm guessing that based on your screen name, you have your own self interests at heart.
Just curious, in your opinion, what makes someone credible enough to have an opinion about this? Do they need to be a fish biologist, an ecologist, seasoned angler? Or do they just have to agree with you?
Opinions are fine. Everyone is entitled to one. But fisheries management, like many other things, is probably best left to the people who know it, understand how it works, and DO it for a living. Would you let a roofer tell you how to fix your plumbing? Would you go to a mechanic for medical advice, or hire an electrician to do your taxes? I would hope not.
As for your comments on government? Heheh. Yep, we elect them based on what a majority thinks is best. How's that working out lately? |
|
| |
|
|
We elect officials to run the business of the State of Mn. This includes making laws we all have to live by and hiring people (DNR) to run the state's business.
The democratic process we participate in stops at the point of electing said officials.
If it didn't than there would be no reason to elect them.
I was elected to the position of Township Supervisor. That doesn't mean my constiuents can then tell me what to do as far as making decisions. The job I was elected to do was to make decisions for them based on the trust they put into me by giving me this job.
I could very well make decisions that the majority of my people in Detoit Township disagree with. It's up to them to abide by my decisions or elect me out of office.
JS |
|
| |
|
| Our resources are not voted on by the people just a FYI, angler attitude has changed allot over the past 30 years, for the better. Why? because the people demanded a better fishery with more opportunity for quality fish. They didn't get to vote, they got to make a call.
Democracy of fish? Please tell me you don't vote. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| Guest - 3/28/2011 10:49 PM
We elect officials to run the business of the State of Mn. This includes making laws we all have to live by and hiring people (DNR) to run the state's business.
The democratic process we participate in stops at the point of electing said officials.
If it didn't than there would be no reason to elect them.
I was elected to the position of Township Supervisor. That doesn't mean my constiuents can then tell me what to do as far as making decisions. The job I was elected to do was to make decisions for them based on the trust they put into me by giving me this job.
I could very well make decisions that the majority of my people in Detoit Township disagree with. It's up to them to abide by my decisions or elect me out of office.
JS
You are correct - If you were elected to be township supervisor, you COULD make decisions that the majority disagree with. And it would likely cost you your job. Or, you could act in the best interests of the majority (and the folks who paid for your campaign and got you the job to begin with) and get to keep your job.
In any case, it doesn't matter who hires the DNR biologists to manage the fisheries. What matters is whether or not you let them decide how to best manage the fisheries. Again, my point above - let the people who know what they are doing decide what the best course of action is. Keep the politics out of it, and let the politicians do what they do best.
John, you are talking politcs here. Show me one instance where our political system |
|
| |
|
|
I'm talking politics because the inference has been made that the majority opinion should always be followed.
It's up to the people we elect to make decisions not based on what the people want all the time, but what is best for the people. The theory of elected officials is that they have the ability to make decisions for us that will better our lives, keep us safe etc. We should be electing people that are fair, smart and have the best interest of our State for both the short and long term.
The people we elect are entrusted to make the right decisions, not to make decisions that will keep them in office.
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1220
| OK, let's dive just a tad deeper into the lake...In the MidEast they say, "The enemy of your enemy is your friend." Two tribes sort of hate each other a little but they both hate the third tribe even worse....so they form a temporary alliance and then wipe out the third tribe before going back to fighting with each other. If you go back to the origin of this thread...the mention of the PMTT sort of implies that maybe the tournament guys should stay away from this lake or at least consider it. Naturally, it is not lost on me that some of the guys posting here are not exactly tournament lovers....but they know we are still very much musky guys, probably hate spearing, probably support a pike fishery...i.e. the enemy of the enemy if not the best of friends. So, here is my story: I am a metal guy, I know a lot about lead, I was going to help some groups with the "Get the Lead Out" stuff because I'd rather not see lead in the water. Then I find out the groups don't just want to stop the lead...the want to stop the fishing with the lead just a rest stop on that road. So, I bail on the greenies and tell them F.O.. Why the story? It's because whatever the dumb thing those guys are doing in the dark, and whatever it is I don't like about it....they are Sportsmen of some sort and would probably try musky fishing maybe too and like that as well---probably vote with us on a lot of stuff. So, I am just saying that this stuff is often deeper than it looks. Maybe not a great idea to be targeting a fellow angler even if his idea of angling is a bit on the very barbaric side of the lake. Marty Forman |
|
| |
|
|
Marty makes a good point about fishermen being fishermen, and having more in common than they have not.
Years ago, when muskies were even less dense of a population on our natural lakes then they are now, people tried to find ways to change that.
In the 80's the spearing community agreed to the ban on Cass. They maybe didn't agree with it, or think they were the cause of the low muskie numbers but they realized that concern for the fishery was real on behalf of the muskie guys.
Somewhere along the way the focus shifted from the fishery to the anglers/spearers. Instead of talking about the fish they started talking about each other. I've heard stories about meetings where things got very, very heated, sometimes physical.
Now it's an us against them mentality that quite frankly is being fueled evenly by both sides.
That's to bad, because in the end of this who is really going to win?
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | How about we look at the big picture here?
Lets be clear and understand that it is the darkhouse association who is bypassing the DNR and going to the legislature to get what they want. Its not the Muskie fishermen that are doing that. You can argue all you want about whether or not spearing should be allowed on Cass, but there is no argument that the darkhouse association has brought this issue to the legislature and they are the ones on the attack.
And let there be no doubt that the anti-spearing/anti-fishing people like PETA are watching this and see an opportunity to ban something they hate. While the PETA group and groups like them don't like sport fishing, they hate spearing much more and would love to see it banned.
The darkhouse association has now enabled the anti's to come after them. Before all this started, the DNR stood in the anti's way like a wall. Back when the legislature still listened to the DNR, the anti's had no chance of moving any sort of legislation in MN. But now the DNR barrier is gone and spearing is open for legislation. And don't think for one second that the anti's are going to sit by and do nothing. Do not be surprised to see bills introduced to completely ban both game and rough fish spearing in the MN legislature within two years. The goal of the anti's will be to get a "compromise" and only ban all gamefish spearing - which many fishermen will also support. The big danger after that will be that the anti's would then go after rough fish spearing and sport fishing in incremental stages.
The last thing we needed was for the legislature to start dictating game and fish laws and ignoring the DNR. But the darkhouse association has started it. Its just a matter of time now before the anti's make their move.
And so it goes.
Edited by Herb_b 3/29/2011 12:04 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| Guest - 3/29/2011 10:13 AM
[...]
The people we elect are entrusted to make the right decisions, not to make decisions that will keep them in office.
JS
It's good to be an optimist I suppose... But wow, John. Really? I suppose at the local level in a small town there may be some that just want to do some good. But at the state level? Wow. |
|
| |
|
| EA; I was refering to how it is supposed to work, not how it actually pans out.
It's our job to put people in office that will do the right thing. If we can't than it's our fault.
Herb; The legislature has been going around the DNR for years. Walleye stocking rates were dicatated by legislature at levels the DNR was opposed to. What the MDA is trying to do isn't new and has been successfully done before.
The big picture is that both sides have elements in them that have pushed, and the natural reaction when pushed by many people is to push back.
The muskie guys say "the spearers are the one who ....", and the spearers say "the muskie guys are the one who....". What a great world we live in.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 183
Location: Grand Forks ND | It IS a great world we live in, JS....wouldn't want to live anywhere else!!
Can't people disagree, what's wrong with that. How boring life would be if everyone thought and wanted the same thing. |
|
| |
|
|
This isn't about disagreeing, it's about how people treat one another when they disagree.
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | John,
I think this is quite different than stocking levels or which lakes to stock. Those are not hot-button issues to the anti-spearing/fishing crowd. Spearing is a major hot-button issue with them and now the box is open. Just wait and see what I'm talking about. The anti's have been waiting for a moment like this when the sportsman are divided.
So, how many Muskie fishermen would defend the darkhouse association now? After what those guys have been doing, I certainly wouldn't.
|
|
| |
|
|
The difference is you care. The point is the same. People have been using the legislature to go around the DNR for years, not just regarding fisheries issues.
There are spearers who say they will oppose anything the muskie guys want no matter what. I can guarantee you that muskies speared now-a days are done out of pure spite, it's not accidental.
There are muskie guys who feel the same way about the spearers. They put all spearers into the same group and think all of them want to do nothing but spear all the muskies they can. They woudn't support any cause they had out of spite.
I would guess more muskies are killed now by the spear than were back when they put the ban on Cass just because of the animosity that has been created between these 2 groups.
Think about that for a minute.
JS
|
|
| |
|
| I've missed you John.
SC |
|
| |
|
|
Haven't been hard to find Steve. Haven't learned much either!
JS |
|
| |
|
| Well John nobody will ever say you're shy. Myself on the other hand I have tried to completely disappear yet still have a impact. Disappearing did not work, You see I have single handed attempted to end this debate by eating every Pike in Cass Lake. (Honestly those who know me understand it's all I can catch on Cass anyways) Who knew that Pike are so full of fat! I am now larger that I have ever been. Ginourmous even. Went from a running bull, to a walking bull simply because running is no longer a option. I have become a not quite as old Tony Grant looking guy who hasn't seen his feet in over a year. The only impact I have made is my feet hitting the ground. Whole lot of shaking going on!
I have realized that I can not eat the entire population of Cass Lake Pike. My request is that Pike spearing anglers and Musky crazed individuals find some common ground. Please. |
|
| |
|
| Just look at what the spearing population has done to the pike on Lake Bemidji and that alone should be all the evidence needed to put a stop to this nonsense. They have almost completely wiped the big pike out. Its sad that ten years ago I could catch 10-15 a summer over 40inches and now your lucky if you even hear of one over. This debate shouldn't be driven by the anglers wanting to protect the muskies but by all anglers who love to catch and release all big fish. Cass Lake has a large population of big pike and without a little help that too will be ruined by spearing. What a shame! Mike |
|
| |
|
|
Mike, agree 100%.
Steve, I never knew you could see your feet.
Hook up with Jerry Sondag, he's the Subway dude of muskie fishing.
JS |
|
| |
|
| Check out the fish at 2:00 and tell me that's not a Muskie or a Hybrid. Those guys have no clue and would have speared it if it had been bigger. That is what Muskie Fishermen worry about spearing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goOWlYnqLAc
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | He speared a 16lber that day as well. I thought they only spear the small ones. |
|
| |
|
| Yeah right. Look release. At the rate the MDAA is changing laws in 5 years they will be spearing muskie's claiming they all use "look release".... only spear the eaters. There's a trend going on here. They win this battle they work on removing slots for pike after that they open spearing to any fish, after that they want no limits. They already figured out this worked once. The representatives of Minnesota needs to hear from everyone on these bills. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | The MDAA has opened a pandora's box that is going to bite them. Just wait until the anti's get in touch with all their allies in the MN legislature. There are more than a few in the MN legislature that would listen to them and they will craft legislation banning spearing. It will happen.
If you don't believe me, just look at California. The anti's managed to ban mountain lion hunting there even though those same mountian lions have killed people. Once the anti's come after the spearers in MN, the spearers will be in big trouble. The anti's are well funded and are supported by many in Hollywood. How will the little 1% of the MN fishing population ever stand up to that? Especially when the spearers have alienated the rest of the fishing population? Answer - they won't. They won't even have a chance.
The fact is that the spearers had it pretty good and have gotten greedy and now want more. And now they have left themselves open for attack.
Edited by Herb_b 3/30/2011 11:46 AM
|
|
| |
|
| Thanks for linking to the video. The guy speared three fish over 15lbs. in a couple of days. I am sure that won't have any affect on the size structure of northerns in that lake if that sucess rate is repeated all winter, give me a break. To call that a sport is laughable. Like Herb said, the antis will use the current situation to put and end to this "sport" in no time flat. |
|
| |
|
| I agree, herb has a good point. Kind of scary to think of any anti group that could come in and go around the DNR like the MDAA. This is not a good thing IMO. Can you imagine all the problems the anti's could cause. I just wish the DNR had the ability to set the guidelines for Minnesota's natural resources.
I like the idea of getting proactive instead of defensive on these anti-pike bills. I see no problem in listing the businesses that support the ban lift. I spend my weekends in that area and none of my business will go to these places.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 203
Location: Alexandria, Minnesota | I Agree with you guys. I think it time to take the fight to them and put them on the defensive. We should go for a state wide ban on spearing. If you go by the percentages there are a hell of a lot more of us then them. Watching that video just sealed the deal for me. You get 10 to 15 guys like that on a lake and they could easily effect any Northern population in just one season. What a complete waste of those trophy fish. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | Kevin, if you have compiled a listing of the business that support lifting the ban and those that do not. I would like to get a copy. I get up that way often and have tried not to spend anything up there if I do not have to because I do not know who is for what. I would certainly give business to those that support the ban. I would think anyone who goes there would want the list not only the PMTT guys. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | Also remember the ANTI's believe that hooking fish and letting them go is cruel and unusal treatment of a living creature. They are already on the record against sportfishing in the oceans. I don't believe we have any allies there. Our Problem lies in the elected officials in the Great State of Minnesota. We need to make a list on where they stand and make sure come next election that is in everyone's hands. I don't care what party affliation you believe you are. They have all sold out on our resources at one candidate or another. If we find out who is Pro Muskie and move to support them. In a few years we will make a difference. Nine tenths of the dirty deals on natural resource issues happen because the sportsmen & women of this State cannot or will not organize. It would be different with Muskie People....Muskie People have more passion, fire, and are NOT AFRAID of an uphill battle. Muskie People COULD get it together.
another 2 cents, Jake |
|
| |
|
| Guest - 3/29/2011 5:26 PM
My request is that Pike spearing anglers and Musky crazed individuals find some common ground. Please.
There have been 2 olive branches offered to the spearers in the last 4 weeks. Each time the general response was to go pound sand. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | We sure have allot of GUEST posts on this string. Some have brought up good points. I can appreciate the want to remain unknown but really...step up folks.
I would prefer a list of business that DID support the ban to work from, because I would drive OUT of State rather than support one that wants to lift it. I think this is especially important to me for the resorts. I may not have to stay there but if they have food I'll cross the whole lake to give them my dollars rather than go without or buy from the others. I also will give the list to those that are coming from out - of - state. There's nothing wrong with this, it's my money and the guests I have in my boats go where the capitan takes them. |
|
| |
|
|
Identifying lakes that have trophy pike potential and taking measures to protect them is one thing.
Calling for an allout ban on spearing is another.
Anyone who thinks for one second that it's in our best interest to push for a spearing ban in MN is not thinking things through.
There are more people in MN who have anti-muskie feelings than just the spearers.
No More Muskies was not a spearing group in the begining, but later did ally with them.
Spearers may be a small % of MN anglers, but we are only one step above them.
A lot of MN anglers could be easily persuaded to not support the muskie program and actually work to stop it from expanding, or worse stop stocking any non-native lakes.
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| I often wonder if the anti's are really opposed to having muskies in the lakes, or if they are just opposed to having muskie anglers ON the lakes... |
|
| |
|
|
EA;
Both of those reasons are why we should be careful who we make enemies with, and how far we are going to push.
You can protect pike in MN without banning spearing on all MN waters.
JS |
|
| |
|
| Banning spearing isn't the answer or the problem. If we could lay down a law that wouldn't allow legistrature to go around the DNR. The MDAA is a problem here IMO. I think we have alot going for us with the grassroots campaign. We just need everyone to voice there opinion. |
|
| |
|
|
Another way to look at this;
I we saw a video on u-tube of a couple of anglers catching 20 lb pike and keeping them, would we then try to ban angling?
No, we would focus on protective regs and educating anglers as to why those big pike are important.
Lots of anglers kill big pike too.
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i agree with JS ... that's skarie! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| I'd venture to say that we'd be best served taking a universal approach to making all types of fishing better for everyone. Can't make any enemies that way. Well, except for PETA that is. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 168
Location: Alexandria, MN | I agree that making enemies with non-muskie people is NOT the answer. And while I will NEVER understand why someone would rather spear a fish than battle it with hook and line, an all out ban on spearing wouldn't necessarily protect the trophy pike. Lake specific regulations regarding sizes and limits is a better approach. Some lakes which are overrun with hammer handle pike may actually benefit from spearing. It is unfortunate that organizations like the MDAA chose to take such an extreme, close-minded approach toward laws which would benefit the fishery as a whole. |
|
| |
|
| I think you all missed the point of the video. Did you know that was a Muskie or Hybrid before it turned away or did it look exactly like the pike they were spearing. The point is you can't tell until it's too late.
On the not pushing for banning spearing cause it will make enemies, you must be kidding. It's been tried again over and over and over and we get *&^%$ everytime. Why do you experts think Gil Hamm insisted that stocked Muskie lakes be designated? Because he knew that it was a waste of money to stock Muskies in a lake that was speared. Muskie and Pike make a migration to the shallows at first ice. First ice is when spearers do most of their damage. Now that they have gotten the season increased to Nov 15 instead of Dec 1 they can start up north and spear new ice all the way to the Iowa border. The greed these peeps display is pathetic and they should be banned from their so called "sport" |
|
| |
|
| Also, hook and line anglers don't get to choose which fish eats their bait. Spearers do get that choice and it obvious which fish get targeted. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Here's a short video of the temptation this harpooner is facing. Read the description to the video, that's the scary part. The Minnesota Darkhouse's ultimate goal is to legally spear muskies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT_JsTCz_kA
|
|
| |
|
|
Sled, that's classic.
The idea that stocking muskie lakes where you can still spear is a waste is nonsense.
Case in point, Big Detroit, Pelican, Miltona, Bemidji, Planet. Are you kidding me?
Are you even trying to imply that these lakes are a failure because you can spear on them?? Really?? Have you ever fished them??
I think some people really need to ask the question, who kills more muskies, spearers or muskie fishermen. Be it intentionally or by delayed mortality.
Then put this issue back to the place it should be, protecting trophy pike.
Make this a pike issue and we have a leg to stand on without looking like complete
hypocrites. Protecting pike can be done without banning spearing. It has been on many MN lakes with special regs.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32920
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Cass Lake, Spearing, & PMTT
'I often wonder if the anti's are really opposed to having muskies in the lakes, or if they are just opposed to having muskie anglers ON the lakes...'
'Both of those reasons are why we should be careful who we make enemies with, and how far we are going to push.'
'without looking like complete--
hypocrites'
Interesting.
|
|
| |
|
| I bet was fishing them before you born JS and guess what, they didn't have ANY Muskies in them then but do now through the efforts of people like Gil Hamm and others. If Gil wanted designated Muskie lakes, I'd think he had a well thought out reason why. Let me ask you a question, have you ever speared them. ?? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32920
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | SV/JS,
If you want to fight with John Skarie and Vice/Verse, I can recommend a place to do so, and this isn't it. At the risk of being accused (again) of 'having no class', I'll ask you not to make comments designed to start a fight.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 34
| Did anyone read the DNR's Long Range Muskellunge and Large Northern Pike in Mn? They want Trophy pike -well lifting the Cass lake spearing ban will not improve opportunities for TROPHY PIKE on Cass Lake. What the hell is wrong from angling in a darkhouse? I like traditions but I say get rid of spearing and get rid of them FUC'N nets on Mille Lacs, the lakes it occurs on suffer, Those lakes mentioned above do they have good numbers of Trophy Pike? Wasn't the ban put in place to Protect Muskellunge on Cass, well why lift the ban we don't wanna protect musky anymore? |
|
| |
|
| Dont read this, its long.
Accountability for our impact on the resource; this has been the problem. I'm very happy with what Muskie anglers have done to address their impact, I can say the same thing about Bass and Trout; Walleye and even the Panfish people are beginning to understand this fishery is not endless.
A recent study in MN showed that 11% of DHS just looked at fish through the hole, I can understand that, keeping a 2-3 pound fish for a meal, I get it and do.
Plowing through multiple 10-17 pound fish over a few days, I don't get; be responsible.
Honestly it could be the best tool for getting rid of small over abundant Pike, I always thought it would be a great idea to get the Muskie guys and DHS guys on one of these lakes together with liberal harvest and take as many as possible, let the Legion pickle and have a feed with them.
A Clifs (Cass lake initiative for spearing) guy asked me what our secret to success was, I told him we don't celebrate killing big fish, and if a guy does it we don't fish with him anymore, its not cool anymore. We don't hold contests to see who kills the biggest fish.
We want to protect the Trophy status of Cass Lake Muskies as well as the large Pike, we value the Pike as a creature that keeps balance in this lake with its Walleye and Panfish as well.
We would like to see people continue to fish Cass, maybe with friends and family or in a tournament if that's what they enjoy. We would like to see a better overall Muskie fishery in MN.
They say they want to spear small pike because they wouldn't eat large fish due to the super-fund site, they say they want 3-4 pound fish to eat, they want to spear whitefish.
They recognize no-one has done more for their sport than Muskie-fisherman and would like to learn from us. They say they don't want the Muskie-fisherman to leave Cass Lake, they understand the impact we have on the local economy and they don't want to lose it.
Can "everyone" on either side be happy with all of these wants? nope.
Is there compromise? That requires understanding and willingness.
|
|
| |
|
| Nice post Muskie fool  . |
|
| |
|
|
Nobody needs to explain the history of muskie in MN, the efforts of Gil or any other aspect of MI in MN to me SV. You are barking up the wrong tree there. I will say this, many things have changed in the muskie world since the 70's. We learned that we were our own worst enemies then, and corrected that with the embrace of C&R. I don't think we are done with that journey though.
It's obvious that many people's opinions on this subject are being fueled by an ongoing war with the spearing community.
I can't really make my points any clearer than I have.
We've got 2 groups of people carrying pitchforks and torches and in the end everybody will lose on some levels.
JS
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | If all they want is to spear 2-3 pound fish for the table, they have 9,995 lakes available to them. Why Cass? |
|
| |
|
| John, I like what you have to say. How do you bring the two sides together? Can there be a agreement on these issues? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1220
| One more example regarding strategic planning: It's the NRA. Do you like it-not like it? Either way you have to admit they are pretty powerful, and get their voices counted every single time. Well, how about the high capacity clips in the pistol that shot the congresswoman from Arizona---think we need those to kill our buck next year? Or--the really nastiest looking assult rifle with the 100 shot magazine? You'd think the NRA would give in on that stuff, wouldn't you? But they don't. They don't becasue they see any crack at all in their armor as a crack that the anti-gun crowd will crawl into and make a nest. I think we as anglers can sort of admit we are not quite as powerful as the NRA, and maybe can not afford to open up these cracks either. Would I rather not see the spears? Yea, I'd rather not see the spears! Do I wish to splinter a group that is already very thin on friends? No! Marty Forman |
|
| |
|
| A word I keep hearing thrown around is "tradition". I have to laugh every time I hear it. The word is most often used by those unwilling and or unable to evolve. Everything ever done in the history of man kind could be labelled a tradition. If the arguement for the continuance of spearing as a recreational activity is it's a "tradition" good luck with that. |
|
| |
|
|
Cbrooks;
Not sure if you are asking me or John Underhill.
For what it's worth, here is my opinion.
There will be no sitting down at the table until the labeling and name calling stops by both sides.
Not all spearers want to be exempt from slots, they don't all want to kill every big pike they see and they don't all want to legally spear muskies.
Acting like the whole group is the anti-christ will never lead to being able to sit down and hammer things out.
It also goes without saying not every muskie angler wants to ban spearing, thinks that anyone who spears is a piece of dog-poo or thinks that all spearers will harpoon every muskie they see.
But they way some people talk you'd think all those things are true on both ends.
JS |
|
| |
|
| that's a great message John. it's sad that it's a hard thing to do and most people are content to take the easy path and just paint people with other interests as "the bad guys" when in reality it's probably just a small percentage who are not ethical. albeit a small percentage who can do a lot of damage. but if you want to co-opt those who are willing to adapt and cooperate, you have to be civil towards them first. |
|
| |
|
| Cooperation??? It was decided in the name of cooperation to not fight the spearers on new waters to be stocked in Mn. Spearing would be allowed. What did we get for that move? (A mistake in my opinion) The spearers stir up the public w/ blatant misinformation which ruined 2 of the 4 lakes the DNR had approved for Muskie stocking. Also during this time the spearers got the season moved up to Nov. 15th and has reintroduced the spearing ban lifting on the self-sustaining Cass Lake.
As many of us feared, has come true. Cooperation w/ these people is viewed as weakness on our part and embolded them.
|
|
| |
|
| Also during this time period the spearers got legislation to allow non-residents to spear for a $42 fee. So you will be able "to try spearing" as you suggested recently Lambeau. |
|
| |
|
| Cooperation w/ these people is viewed as weakness on our part and embolded them. "these people"? perhaps you might be more specific: the radical leaders of MDAA, etc.; or the workaday Joe that has a darkhouse and enjoys ethical spearing? i know a few guys in that second category and they're not the same as the small cadre of people leading the political efforts. VERY different groups that you're lumping together as "these people", imho. ignore/fight the radicals, sure; but reaching out to the average, reasonable folks is plain good sense. and yes, i'm quite interested in trying spearing for pike. like anyone else i can do so on many lakes in MN where harvesting of appropriate sized pike is desireable. why shouldn't i want to try that?
Edited by lambeau 4/1/2011 11:35 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| Well, there's no better way to get folks riled up than to start talking about spearing fish that we take great care to release. Not familiar with the local traditions in the Cass Lake area, so the only thing I can relate it to is what I see going on in Vilas County.... Lots of the folks up there, most, in fact, are from N IL. They all bought homes up there during the good years, and now they're faced with severe restrictions on their (walleye) fishing, so the local tribes can spear during the spawn. It's difficult to justify only being able to keep two walleyes per day out of your "own lake" when over 200 were speared, legally, in the spring, especially when you spent half a million just to have a place up there where the fishing and the environment is still unspoiled.
So I can see the "spearing is evil" mentality. I'm sure that there are conservation minded pike spearers, who just take a few small pike for the table, just like those of us who catch them and eat them. While the method of catch might be a little more fatal, the end resut is one less fish either way.
And if you don't think "tradition" is a powerful factor? One needs to look no firther than the motor trolling ban in N/WI. There's no other reason for it other than tradition. Whatever your opinion is on the subject, one could argue that in that particular case, "tradition" is actually helping the fisheries.
So we're worrid about the larger pike and the incidental speared muskie. There's no arguing that a lot of damage can be done, especially on a smaller lake. But I suspect the vast majority of spearers understand that too. They don't want to spear themselves out of a viable fishery anymore than we want to overfish our lakes for muskies. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32920
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | "these people"? perhaps you might be more specific: the radical leaders of MDAA, etc.; or the workaday Joe that has a darkhouse and enjoys ethical spearing?
Which group is active politically especially considering this issue, and how do their actions impact the rest who enjoy that activity? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8821
| sworrall - 4/1/2011 12:06 PM
"these people"? perhaps you might be more specific: the radical leaders of MDAA, etc.; or the workaday Joe that has a darkhouse and enjoys ethical spearing?
Which group is active politically especially considering this issue, and how do their actions impact the rest who enjoy that activity?
Careful now Steve. Let's not let facts get in the way of emotion. |
|
| |
|
|
I just recieved an e-mail from Doug Schultz, the DNR large lake specialist in Walker fisheries office.
Legislation has been introduced to limit the number of lake with special pike regs in MN to 60-90.
Obviously this has been introduced by spearers who feel that the slot prohibits them from spearing and feels it isn't fair.
Now how do you go about fighting this? But heads with the spearers one on one or get the word out to the fishing public in MN that slots work.
By appealing to the MN angling public (walleye, bass, panfish guys etc.) on the benefits of these special regs and the improvements they have made we can gain support to protect pike.
By concentrating on fighting the spearers over a mix of muskie/pike issues we fail.
By making this a political issue the spearers have left themselve very vulnerable to a mass opposition by the fishing public as a whole. Only a very stupid politician would press this issue forward with opposition from throughout the angling community.
It's time to quit having a cage match with the spearers and take the "protect the pike" message to the angling public of MN.
John Skarie
|
|
| |
|
| This ain't good.
I've sent emails about the Cass lake ban lift bill. Should I send another round of emails to the commitee chairs? |
|
| |
|
| As was stated before there were a couple olive branches extended with one last attempt yesterday, we'll see where it goes. I'm hoping the Clifs people are a bit more open to this than the MDAA if in fact they are different? that I cant say.
There will be an easy way for you to contact your legislators on the 60-90 slot lakes deal very soon. Within a day or so. Hold tight. |
|
| |
|
| Guest - 4/1/2011 3:36 PM
I just recieved an e-mail from Doug Schultz, the DNR large lake specialist in Walker fisheries office.
Legislation has been introduced to limit the number of lake with special pike regs in MN to 60-90.
Obviously this has been introduced by spearers who feel that the slot prohibits them from spearing and feels it isn't fair.
John Skarie
No this was Ingebretson trying to find cover after getting destroyed in the Star Trib and ODN.
As long as the spearing leadership has this delusional fantasy that everyone is out to get them we're going to butt heads. Lets face it 10 years ago nobody really paid them any mind. Once they "came out of the dark" (sorry couldn't resist) and started to push things in the legislature that's where they're getting blowback. Quite frankly people in their own organization are very dissatisfied with their leadership and one told me that he was watching the eventual downfall of his sport.
I've personally made 2 attempts to work with them on this Cass issue in the last 4 weeks. I was pretty much told to fly a kite by one and no-joy by the other after he read my amendment. Funny, I wrote an amendment that would 1. address their concerns, 2. protect the large pike in Cass, and 3. calm the waters with the muskie folk. Pretty sad because this could have been the first step towards peace and they're throwing it in our faces. Time will tell what happens. |
|
| |
|
|
Shawn;
If the leadership fails them, do you see a chance of them being elected out and the MDHA coming around?
Possibly even being involved in the Minnesota Muskie and Pike Alliance?
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | In a perfect world yes. Do I honestly think that would happen? No.
They've spread too many lies in their group for me to believe there's enough of them that haven't been brainwashed with the "they're out to get us" mentality as well as the "you have to kill all the big ones so the little ones can grow" line of false logic. The ones who see through their BS seem to either drop out or be ostracized from what we've seen.
I hope I'm wrong because it would be nice to have a truce with them and even better if we could work together from time to time. |
|
| |
|
| We just have to keep looking forward. Focus on Muskies and Large Pike. We are working with some very good organizations that have have the same vision as we do. Provide angling opportunity and get more kids and adults interested and involved in our resources and their sustainability. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 100
Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | I get to hear some chit-chat amongst some of the CLIFS members in an establishment I work part-time at. Last year I was in a discussion that was 1-on-6, me being the only one for the ban. The attitude amongst the group is pretty "redneck" with little known facts actually known and lots of assumptions and fuzzy thoughts directing them. Part of the reason they want this is because Leech Lake band members can spear and net on the Cass Chain, but these rights are not used that heavily in all fairness. There are a few members and fighters for the ban lift that are quite intelligent and really know how to talk and present they're case though. Last night I overheard one member say that doing this politically and going to the legislature is the "only way to get this done." I wanted to speak up but was busy, plus the discussion would turn poor and I see no point in that. Its such a BAD way to do this, letting a bunch of politicians that know NOTHING about this make decisions like this. DNR is there for a reason, right ? It would be another brick in the foundation of bad precedents on how something gets done. I'm almost required to get into the discussion over it at times and my basic response is I dont think anyone needs to spear pike over about 7lbs. What do you do with a 13lb northern that you cant do with 3-4 pike in the 3-4lb range???......and they're are a LOT better lakes than Cass in this area to get those. Many of these guys are not big fans of the DNR and dont take near a conservation-minded an attitude as we do, but to be fair I have heard some individuals present their thoughts in a clean, well-thought out manner, certainly makes for better discussion. |
|
| |
|
| To me this seems like more of an issue of politics. Do we allow the Senators to decided what happens to our natural resources or do we leave that job to our DNR who are qualified to make this decision? Once again, in my opinion if we loose this issue it gives other groups of people a treasure map to bypassing the DNR and getting what they want. Pike and muskies are the least of our concerns if we allow our natural resources to be managed by our senators. |
|
| |
|
| Here is a link for MN residents to provide input.
http://www.votervoice.net/core.aspx?APP=GAC&AID=1356&issueid=24019&... |
|
| |
Cass Lake, Spearing, & PMTT