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Location: NorthCentral WI | We all know you should figure 8 on every cast but for how long is the question? I fish mainly stained water lakes and during the year it can be difficult to even see a follow. Many times you will just see a quick flash of its side once it nears the boat. So, when I know I've had a follow but only caught a glimpse of it, should I do 10, 20, 40 figure 8s? What is the longest you've done the 8 before the fish came back to eat?
I consider myself a novice, only a few years into the sport and I have NOT caught a fish in the 8 yet despite a couple of very good opportunities.
One fish last year followed in my showgirl and disappeared under the boat. After around 30 figure 8s she came back out, took a swipe and missed, then bolted away.
A different day last year on a very stained lake I didn't see the fish following and she ate on the 2nd turn unexpectedly. Locked down drag snapped my line after one headshake because I wasn't thumbing it. I felt horrible for days especially because it was a big fish and all I could see was bucher mag tinsel hanging from her mouth.
BTW: I have since turned down my drag so some line can be taken and really practiced engaging the spool at the start of the 8. With abus it is a real pain the engage with pressure on like a dbl 10. Has not become total habit for me yet though.
Edited by MartinTD 3/22/2011 4:21 PM
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | well i fig 8 on every cast at least 3 times now if im in deeper water it will be more, these fish can see and feel the bait from a far distance and cruse up and check it out . and i have seen fellow fisherman and clients blow it by not doing enough. they do one or 2 quick ones or even a L and pitch another cast out then look down and there is the fish. so i make it a point to teach everyone to do enough fig 8's it will better your odd's doing it |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | How long should you figure 8? As long as the fish is there, DON'T STOP!! LOL.
Ok, all kidding aside, we've had days where you wouldn't even see a fish until 2 full figure 8's. Even in 4' of clarity, the fish was following somewhere where we couldn't see. In the middle of the 2nd figure 8, a fish would show up and eat! Weird. Sometimes, you can see them go under the boat vs back where they came from. We've then snapped on something else and just started F-8ing that. The fish would come right out from under you. Now, there are days where I'm power fishing, and will only do an L-turn. If there's no fish hot on it, it's on to the next cast. These are situations when I don't have a lot of time, but the weather is perfect, and I'm just trying to find active fish. |
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Location: NorthCentral WI | That makes sense. There's got to be guys that have say; had a big fish follow in and figure 8ed for 2-3 minutes, or 60 figure 8s before it came backor something. No? |
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| Martin, I hope you haven't been figure 8ing after each cast for years.
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Location: SE Wisconsin | I would get a sore back and plain ol' burnt out if I did full circles or 8's, whatever you want, after every cast, so I tend to go at it hard for the first while but then slink into the lazy L's. That said, for the most part I draw an L at the boat and fire away, but there ARE times when something just feels fishy and I'll find myself putting more into it. On darker water I give it a couple solid 8's before casting again, so more effort and better sleep at night.
When I see a fish coming, it's a learned technique, but it's something I've gradually or instinctually adapted to and that is pressing the thumbar with my thumb joint and pressing the pad of my thumb on the line to prepare for action. Once I hook up on the eight, it's simple to thumb out a little line pending the circumstances and when she's out far enough to have time to get the net or whatever the circumstance calls for, I can click the reel and handle business..
While I'd say 75% of my hook-ups on the 8 happen in the first turn or two, I don't give up until I'm out of breath in most instances.. I had a buddy figure 8 so long after a follow I thought he was just having fun with it after a while... Suddenly, "FISH ON!!". That was just crazy but I had to hand it to him.
Another time, my other buddies father who's aged a bit and can't keep up with the constant flinging of big baits, decided to figure eight for a while as a means to keep his bait wet while he rested. My bud had a follow from a mid-40 and the fish flared off and gave his dad not only his first musky, but his first legal, first figure 8 fish and biggest catch-to-date.
Edited by Sam Ubl 3/22/2011 5:12 PM
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Location: APPLETON, WI | I do it religiously after every cast and I do it at least (3) times. I don't believe there's any hard /fast rule and I'm no veteran by a long shot. I've yet to catch a fish on the 8, but I'd kick myself if I blew that opportunity. I did have an aggressive follow last year on a TopRaider and at boatside, I figure-8'd for what seemed like several minutes until I'm certain the fish was either gone or simply lost interest. *shrug*
I've not seen any videos of anyone figure-8'ing for several minutes and then finally hooking up a fish... it does seem that most fish seem to hit violently on the 1st or 2nd turn... not on the 14th or 15th. I guess that's why I picked the number 3 for me. I figure 8 a total of (3) times and then it's back into the cast.
Kinda cool to see how everyone else does it though.  |
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Location: NorthCentral WI | Well, of course not. I'm plain too lazy for that. I usually at least do an L turn or one circle though.
Question is more referring to a following fish, or like I said on stained water I have just seen a flash as the fish darts to the side and out of visibility. You know the fish has to be close yet most of the time. ? Give it 3 figure 8s and keep chuckin or what?
I remember seeing a video a while back where I think a fish had lost interest in the 8 yet it was close so he was slapping the water with his bucktail to attract it. F'd up!
Edited by MartinTD 3/22/2011 5:29 PM
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| it would be tough for me in a dark water or nightfishing situation to cast again without doing at least 5 figure 8s. yeah it slows you down and it's physically tough to do all the time but looking back at the fish caught the past couple seasons that i never saw (i usually fish at night) most of them hit on the 3rd full loop and a good number of them ate on the 4th or 5th. during the day i'll keep at it until i'm confident the fish is gone. lots of times if you get one of those fish that requires dozens of 8s before it eats it'll show itself a few time during the process to let you know it's still there. |
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Location: Oshkosh | I think this is what your talking about Martin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O-UXmO1fME
Peter
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| That vid makes me crazy!!!! Watch those figure 8's....snore! That fish would have eaten a proper f8 every time in the first two turns. Ask yourself as you watch that vid: "Is that how a fleeing bait fish would move?" There were no triggering aspects whatsoever! The answer to your question is about "reading fish," and that can only come from experience. IMO it's less about "how long?" and more about "how well?" you f8. Think about this vid. IMO it demonstrates the mindset of good f8ing better....the simply fishing vid is what not to do. Watch as the activity becomes more and more frenzied as the chase goes on! I always tell my clients: The fish will do what your bait does. If you slow down, the fish will slow down; If you speed up, so will the fish. If your f8 is boring the fish will reflect that attitude!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHWiteoP3DU |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | MartinTD - 3/22/2011 5:21 PM Well, of course not. I'm plain too lazy for that. I usually at least do an L turn or one circle though. Question is more referring to a following fish, or like I said on stained water I have just seen a flash as the fish darts to the side and out of visibility. You know the fish has to be close yet most of the time. ? Give it 3 figure 8s and keep chuckin or what? I remember seeing a video a while back where I think a fish had lost interest in the 8 yet it was close so he was slapping the water with his bucktail to attract it. F'd up! Flash offs don't always mean the fish is gone, as a lot of times they will flash off in a hurry but turn back around and stop to watch. When you see a fish follow your bait, you always give it its dues.. Meaning, you don't get follows after every cast, so when it happens, treat even flash offs like it's your best shot because it just may be. Whether you do an L turn or give three full revolutions on the blind 8's, treat a follow, even a flash off, like your trip depends on it. If nothing happens and the fish doesn't reappear after a while, throw right back to where she came from and/or whatever direction she went and often times you may be able to get her attention again. As a last resort, remember the spot and return for another chance later on. As for how long to blindly figure 8 after a follow and not seeing the fish return, well, that's up to you... Every instance is different and is more of an innate instinct IMO. If I don't see the fish return after a little while, sometimes I get the itch to fire it back to see if she'll come up again. It's up to you my friend.
Edited by Sam Ubl 3/22/2011 11:00 PM
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Location: Nielsen's Fly-In Lodge, on Rowan Lake | you know the term fig 8 is just a term in all my years i have learned that the bigger the fish the bigger the circle slow up some on the corners and pic up the speed in the stright away small fish the 8 is ok but BIG fish cant make the turn and they are looking for it then it comes back around again and they pick it up.its lick trying to turn a semi truck around in a mcdonalds parking lot they cant make the turn you must give them room to manuver this is just what i have seen over the years |
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Location: Minnetonka | I usually stop figure 8ing when the fish bites. 
I'll just piggy back on what Ben said, and add that if there's one piece of advice I give figure 8 newbs it's "Make a good first move". Most times, when a fish wants to eat on the figure 8 and doesn't, the angler could have done a better job at making their L-turn transition and initial, sweeping "high-and-outside" to trigger the fish right away. Or they just plain flinched and spooked the fish... expecting the follow every time is another big advantage you can give yourself to catching 'em on the figure 8. IMO the first impression is paramount in mastering the 8.
Edited by Hammskie 3/23/2011 12:23 PM
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Location: APPLETON, WI | Awesome points, everyone!
I think a lot of us learn as newbies that regardless of whether or not you actually see a flash, so to speak... we should still be going right into a figure-8 after each and every cast. A lot of time if we're fishing dark, stained water or even deeper water - we may not necessarily have the ability to spot or see a follower at any given moment. I think that's why it was embedded in my mind as I began to truly attempt to figure-8 at least (3) times after each and every cast.
But again, the cool part is everyone kind of does their own thing and adds their own personal flair to this part of musky fishing. I'm not certain if there's any right or wrong way or exact science... what works for you during any given situation, may not work so well for someone else.
...and that's musky fishing. |
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Location: Sycamore, IL | If you are getting alot of "flashes" at the boat, try going as deep as you can with your figure8...this seems to work when the fish are pressured or spooky. Good luck!
Matt |
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Location: Nielsen's Fly-In Lodge, on Rowan Lake | psys you are absolutly right THAT IS MUSKIE FISHIN |
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While a figure 8 or L turn is the way to finish every cast, doing multiple 8's after each cast may put an occasional extra fish in the boat at the cost of fish you can catch by making more casts per hour.
After dark 2 full circles (I never 8, always oval) is worth the time to do.
In daylight I'd bet the house you will catch more fish by getting your lure back out there vs. making multiple 8's at the boat. |
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Location: Warroad, Mn | I agree 100% with guest! I've fished muskies on the dark waters of the LOTWs for 45 years and have never caught a muskie on a blind figure-8. I've guided for around 30 years on the LOTWs and have lots of clients who think they should blind figure-8 three or four times after every cast and so far none of them have ever caught a fish on a blind figure-8. I watch them do this for a half a day and then ask them how many fish they've caught doing this and the answer is almost always "NONE". As far as I'm concerned it's one of the biggest waste of time there is in muskie fishing. If you do a well executed "L" and watch your lure for fish during the retrieve and at the boat and cast again, you well catch more fish than stirring the water at the boat with out seeing a muskie follow. I suppose the exception would be night fishing when you can't see your lure. I've fished with lots of very good fishermen many times, Pete Maina, Doug Stange, Dick Pearson, Mark Windels, Jack Burns, Chad Cain, Crash Mullins, Doc Cotton, Roger Halverson and lots of other very good muskie fisherman and there's not one of them who does a blind figure-8. However, we do catch lots of fish on figure-8's. I'll bet that I have personally caught 300-400 fish on a figure-8, and in the boat I'll bet it's pushing the 1,000 mark (remember this is the LOTWs, and 45 years, at 100 days plus/year). What we do is to watch for follows. If you are watching and know what to look for you will see most of the fish that are catchable (some aren't). It's also possible at times to turn a relatively neutral fish into a biter with a well executed figure-8 (or zero). Long rods help. Don't give up early, I've caught lots of fish after a long time of 8's. Sometimes they go away but not too far, and they came back again. If you do it a lot you'll be amazed at what they do! Learn how to figure-8, as it'll put lots of fish in the boat. Learn how to spot a fish that's following as that's the key. But don't do numerous figure-8s after every cast, because you read it somewhere! Just my personal opinion!!!! Doug Johnson
Edited by dougj 3/23/2011 6:41 PM
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| Don Pursch - 3/23/2011 11:02 AM
you know the term fig 8 is just a term in all my years i have learned that the bigger the fish the bigger the circle slow up some on the corners and pic up the speed in the stright away small fish the 8 is ok but BIG fish cant make the turn and they are looking for it then it comes back around again and they pick it up.its lick trying to turn a semi truck around in a mcdonalds parking lot they cant make the turn you must give them room to manuver this is just what i have seen over the years
Which part of a circle are "corners" and "the straight away", Don? |
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Location: Contrarian Island | Doug J wrote:
Location: Warroad, Mn I agree 100% with guest!
I've fished muskies on the dark waters of the LOTWs for 45 years and have never caught a muskie on a blind figure-8. I've guided for around 30 years on the LOTWs and have lots of clients who think they should blind figure-8 three or four times after every cast and so far none of them have ever caught a fish on a blind figure-8. I watch them do this for a half a day and then ask them how many fish they've caught doing this and the answer is almost always "NONE". As far as I'm concerned it's one of the biggest waste of time there is in muskie fishing. If you do a well executed "L" and watch your lure for fish during the retrieve and at the boat and cast again, you well catch more fish than stirring the water at the boat with out seeing a muskie follow. I suppose the exception would be night fishing when you can't see your lure.
I've fished with lots of very good fishermen many times, Pete Maina, Doug Stange, Dick Pearson, Mark Windels, Jack Burns, Chad Cain, Crash Mullins, Doc Cotton, Roger Halverson and lots of other very good muskie fisherman and there's not one of them who does a blind figure-8.
However, we do catch lots of fish on figure-8's. I'll bet that I have personally caught 300-400 fish on a figure-8, and in the boat I'll bet it's pushing the 1,000 mark (remember this is the LOTWs, and 45 years, at 100 days plus/year). What we do is to watch for follows. If you are watching and know what to look for you will see most of the fish that are catchable (some aren't). It's also possible at times to turn a relatively neutral fish into a biter with a well executed figure-8 (or zero). Long rods help. Don't give up early, I've caught lots of fish after a long time of 8's. Sometimes they go away but not too far, and they came back again. If you do it a lot you'll be amazed at what they do!
Learn how to figure-8, as it'll put lots of fish in the boat. Learn how to spot a fish that's following as that's the key. But don't do numerous figure-8s after every cast, because you read it somewhere!
Just my personal opinion!!!!
Doug Johnson"
I'm actually shocked to read that actually...we catch and get hits from quite a few fish in the 8 per year that I had NO clue were there, and I know what to watch for......and I'm talking during the day....I guess I fish with lots of good / great fishermen too who have caught fish that came out of nowhere and hit ...maybe I'm misreading your post? In fact I've had some 50s in the boat by me and others that pounced on the lure from below the boat and there was zero chance anybody knew they were there...and had others hit (one still haunts my buddy DanO) that again, came out of nowhere and hit on the 8... so to say that fish aren't caught on blind 8s to me is crazy...if water clarity is 3" how can you know what is a foot below the bait? or 2 feet behind it...? you can't....simple as that..do I do a full figure 8 on each cast, no, but have had enough fish hit out of nowhere to know there are times and water clarity I do a figure 8 on each cast ...is it worth doing 2 or 3 on each cast ..no, but fish are caught on the 1st 8 that were "blind" and we didn't know were there... some lakes it seems they pounce out of nowhere at times and I know for a fact fish will follow lures some distance below the bait, waiting for the first move to pounce...again, maybe I'm misreading Dougs post but to say all those guys haven't had a fish hit on a figure 8 they didn't know was there? ! ? ! seems impossible.
has happened quite a bit in my boat alone...
Edited by BNelson 3/23/2011 8:15 PM
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Location: APPLETON, WI | BNelson - 3/23/2011 7:22 PM I'm actually shocked to read that actually...we catch and get hits from quite a few fish in the 8 per year that I had NO clue were there, and I know what to watch for......and I'm talking during the day....I guess I fish with lots of good / great fishermen too who have caught fish that came out of nowhere and hit ...maybe I'm misreading your post? In fact I've had some 50s in the boat by me and others that pounced on the lure from below the boat and there was zero chance anybody knew they were there...and had others hit (one still haunts my buddy DanO) that again, came out of nowhere and hit on the 8... so to say that fish aren't caught on blind 8s to me is crazy...do I do a full figure 8 on each cast, no, but have had enough fish hit out of nowhere to know there are times and water clarity I do a figure 8 on each cast ...some lakes it seems they pounce out of nowhere and I know for a fact fish will follow lures some distance below the bait, waiting for the first move to pounce...again, maybe I'm misreading Dougs post but to say all those guys haven't had a fish hit on a figure 8 they didn't know was there? ! ? ! seems impossible. has happened quite a bit in my boat alone... I agree. I was fairly shocked to read it, as well. That's why I don't believe there are any true right or wrong answers. Everyone has their own opinions and everyone has their own way of executing this part of musky fishing. I've fished with a few great fishermen and 2 out of 3 that I've had the pleasure of fishing with figure-8 after each and every cast. Period. Perhaps to some it may be a chronic waste of time, but they HAVE caught fish on the 8. And I know for a fact it isn't because of any one specific fish they thought was following their bait. You can't possibly be scanning the water and the depths and have the ability to know where every fish is at every given point in time... so, if you can't see a fish, then there must not be one there? False. Again, it's interesting to me to read everyone's viewpoints. I still consider myself a newcomer to the sport/hobby of musky fishing. I think gathering as much information as you can and then applying them to your own techniques is what makes everyone a musky fisherman. 
Edited by PSYS 3/23/2011 8:09 PM
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| BNelson catches them just letting his bucktail hang in the water vertically while talking to people too! Sometimes when he doesn't get a follow he will try that stealthy move and be rewarded!
I think you have to read the fish and what they are doing and adjust your presentation to the fish activity. If you are having fish pop up late like when you are in mid-cast on your next cast, you better start figure 8ing after each of your casts. If you don't think that is a good idea...that is OK too... there are guys like me that will come in behind you and catch them.
Also, if you are on a spot where you really think there should be a musky, or you are going back to one you raised earlier...it is a really good idea to do a blind figure 8 even if you don't spot the fish following.
I agree to do them after every cast is a waste of time and I think a good "L' turn is a must..but there is also a time when I think you want to be sure you give that fish a little extra time to react to your presentation.
I think Infishermen did a show with a camera down and were shocked to learn how many fish came in that they didn't see with thier polarized glasses. Makes one ponder a bit...they are down there more than we realize.
Brett Waldera
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Just an opinion..
I believe it's 'wet line time' over the long haul coupled with boat position/fish location/structural elements fished, etc.
If one 'blind' figure 8s once after every cast, the lure is in the water about 6 seconds at boatside. 12 seconds on two. That's a quarter to half a cast depending on the presentation and if the boat isn't moving fast, the bait spends more time in that area than any other. Spend that time with the lure in the water on a retrieve, your average may do what Doug suggests. Spend that time with your lure doing eights, and your average may do what Bn suggests.
How far can you cast? How far away can a muskie sense a presentation? How fast can a muskie swim? Figure eights don't only catch fish that are boatside. Any serious Ice angler who fishes artificials and uses a camera (especially a long range prototype) for Pike can tell you Esox will charge in from yards off in a blur and smoke a presentation that is pretty stationary in 'orbit'. A case could be made that ALL you need to do is figure 8 and you will catch fish if your rig is in the right place.
I'm with Doug on this one, but that's me. |
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I think what DJ was meaning is that doing multiple blind figure 8's isn't productive.
Doing 3 8's after every cast? At night, maybe.
During the day how many of us have every caught a fish on the 3rd 8 without seeing the fish?
I'm sure that DJ and people he knows have had fish hit on the 8 that they didn't see at the end of the cast, but they don't keep going and going if it doesn't happen after one round.
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Location: Warroad, Mn | Well, I figured that would get a few replies! No BN you're not reading my reply wrong! I sort of supect that the lakes that you are fishing will make a lots of difference. Almost all the fish we get on the LOTWs are coming off structure from a shoreline. I've never had a fish out of open water (I've tried) On the LOTWs (and all the other Ontario lakes I've fished, many more) you'll see the fish that you'll catch on an eight. Like I've stated I've had many guys do blind figure-8's and no one has ever caught a fish (maybe a few, but not many, 30 years guiding and 100's of clients). I can think of a couple, but not enough to worry about. We've caught a good number of 50"fish on figure-8's but only after we've seen them following. We've caught many a fish on the "L", but you if you are watching you can see the fish coming. Just because there's a lots of folks who think it pays to do an extensive blind figure-8 there must be people who catch some. But I'll bet that if you could figure out a way to measure fishing success. I.E. Catch/unit/effort (how long does it take to catch a fish), I'll bet that the folks who do a "L" and that make another cast to another spot rather than stirring the water with a figure-8 would be far ahead. I think there's been too much emphasis put on the blind figure-8 at boat side. Your are much better off making another cast to a new location than stirring the water at boat side! Personal opinion!!!! Doug Johnson |
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| DougJ, off topic but do you believe in feeding windows or lure color making a difference? |
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| Thought about this a lot as I was reading this thread. Even I couldn't come up with a good answer!
I read Doug's post, and I thought "what?? My biggest fish was one I didn't even see until I was in the middle of a figure 8!" Then I remembered I was looking the other way and B.S.-ing in with the guys I was fishing with. The I thought about the fish I've missed by just doing an L instead of being relentless about my figure 8's. Maybe I just didn't see them when I should have?
How long do I figure 8?? It depends on if I see a fish. It's like asking someone how long they pee.
I think the point Doug J and Steve W are trying to make is that you can spend a lot of time and energy doing figure 8's, and catch fish you otherwise might not have. But you probably will be better served in the long run throwing that next cast instead.
Reminds me of a joke about an old bull... |
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| Interesting to read the differing thoughts on this....
While a good majority of fish caught in the 8 are seen before the figure 8 maneuvers take place, I firmly believe that there are fish we dont see following. Those fish we dont see can make or break a day on the water or a long trip.
Maybe I'm reading some of the posts incorrectly, but I think doing an 8 or at least a good solid 'L" turn each cast, acting and thinking that a fish is there will surely result in more fish in the net for you. A fish does not need to be behind your bait in order to strike it, they come from all directions. My first 50, came out of BNelsons boat and was on a 'blind' figure 8. It was one of the coolest muskie strikes Ive ever witnessed. I had no idea a fish was there, but reacting and executing like a fish was there resulted in a fish in the bag.
Who knows, just my opinion.
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Location: Duluth, MN | I fish alot of stained water. When you have an average chop to no chop I always figure 8 two times. When there are big waves stay with the figure 8 four to six times and watch for the fish coming back from under the boat. I have had 4 to 5 fish days with everyone of the fish coming back from under the boat and never have seen fish.
Edited by yooper 3/24/2011 1:37 AM
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Location: Nowhere near where I should be | Along the lines of ben and hamskie if the bait is put into an enticing (enough)motion, 8, 0, L, D, Z, whatever, this should get a fish to eat. I mean If it came that far, and depending how "hot" she might be the right seasoning should help seal the deal. In my opinion there are far to many variables to put a single number, or motion, on your after follow figure-letter. As far as blind 8's go hows this, casting our way down the weed line, at a decent pace I got the edge, dogboys chuckin' deep, ciggy break and a drink (maybe 7 min). I pick up my rod all amped up again and bust right into a figure-8. No cast, just make my phantom swim around up down all around more so playing my bait like there was one following it. I would say about a minute and a half or better and having written the alphabet with my bait, one last wide turn to the surface and a fish just appears out of no where on my bait and smashed it, lots of laughs after that i mean, i was just screwing around. right time? right place? right offering? right motion to pull her out of the weeds? Anything goes,Fish don't think an L is more attractive than an 8 they react when motion is made off the original straight line. Just be ready to do what you have to to get the job done, if shes round 6 times on the X and hasn't eaten are you gonna stop and give up, or are ya gonna offer an O.
Edited by figure8out 3/24/2011 6:45 AM
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Location: Smith Creek | I tend to side more with Doug J on this one. However, there is time and a place for everything, including multiple figure 8's after every cast (deep, slow, cold water fishing in my experience). |
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Location: Madtown, WI |
I think Brett gave a little more insight into what him, Bn and Scotty are talking about.... there is a TIME AND A PLACE to do blind figure 8s. I know for a fact they don't do them all the time... Brett eluded to if fish are coming slow and late... might not be a bad time to try blind 8's. Also right at dark if fish have been moving but not committing... another time to try it. I think lake style has a LOT to do with it. LOTW you are in SHALLOW water. A lot of the bigger MN/WI lakes the fish can follow 6-8 feet down and you don't even see them.
Interesting perspectives anyway.... |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Occasionally when I'm drawing simple L's after every cast, ripping the bait out of the water and firing away, I have sworn out loud when I looked down and saw a late arriver show up wondering where in the heck the lure went.. It's when an instance like this happens when I start putting a little more into it and giving it a full circle or two just to see if anyone wants to sneak in and crash the party fashionably late |
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Location: Minnetonka | dougj - 3/23/2011 6:16 PM
Learn how to spot a fish that's following as that's the key.
Pithy knowledge... great advice. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | You can always come back to those fish if they're worth catching. How many fish south of Canada and east of Minnesota actually hit on an 8? And of those how many do you get hooks into? I love to watch em follow and strike on the 8 but where I fish it just isn't the best use of your time on the water if your goal is putting fish in the net, IMO. |
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| I think you guys that only do an L are missing the chance at fish. I do think there is a limit to the total number of times around, and you are right in saying you may be missing fish by doing too many. I personally do one oval and transition into an actual 8 after every cast. I will keep it going a few minutes if I see a fish, but I think two is a good minimum most of the time. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | "learn how to spot a fish thats following thats the key" ????
um ok, yah, water is in full summer bloom and you are working a dawg 6 feet down and I guess I don't Superman vision that can see into the water with 3" visibility...or how about a flowage with muddy water... great tip I agree for water clarity that allows you the ability to actually see follows as we have all fished with guys who we have to point follows out to more times than not but to say it's as simple as learning to spot follows...not true. not even close. some fish will come straight up from the bottom at the boat to pounce on your bait...fishing some lakes where you are in 25 feet of water casting to and over weeds in 10 feet of water and there can be active fish from 10 feet to 25 feet of water and come out of nowhere to hit the bait on the first move in the L...I wish it were just as simple as "learn to spot a fish"....well on many waters other than LOTW there are more variables than casting at a boulder sticking up and bringing a fish in from that rock.
... too many fish have found the net to say you just have to learn to spot following fish.
my 2 cents.
Edited by BNelson 3/24/2011 8:46 AM
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Good points Brad. Those suspendos definitely have a way of coming straight out of nowhere below you when you're least expecting it! They shoot up like a rocket to the moon, roll on your bait and dive straight back down..
After every cast with a Bulldawg I'll rip it upwards to the boat and when it's a few feet down I'll flip it by ripping up and rolling the Dawg at the peak of the rip by coming back down with the rod, so as to stop the bait from porpoising at the last minute.. I give it some hang time and go out and around with it in a big circle nearly every time.. I couldn't count how many times I've had a fish shoot up out of nowhere to grab the bait at the moment I roll the Dawg and give it a second of hang time... You'd never see those fish coming.
So we have to refer to instances to justify our methods.. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Learning how to spot a fish following IS a major key in figure 8 success. I have quite a few very accomplished anglers fish we me every year as well, and I'm surprised how many times I find myself saying, "Hey, you have one coming."
Take this advice or leave it, up to you...please lose the sarcastic, antagonistic tone. We have some very knowledgeable folks unwilling to post to a thread you have an opinion posted to because if you disagree with them, you frequently seem to try to do your best to try to openly insult or belittle them. Maybe a reason for lack of what should be due respect.
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Location: SE Wisconsin | sworrall - 3/24/2011 9:07 AM I'm surprised how many times I find myself saying, "Hey, you have one coming." I love it! That's one of the best parts of fishing with someone... You get to watch for their follows, too I do the same thing.. It's vicarious, but instinctual - I can't help it and I don't wanna.... ... Except when it causes me to miss an opportunity of my own, lol. |
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Posts: 1141
Location: NorthCentral WI | While learning to spot followers may be a major factor, I've fished plenty of lakes where you can't see a bright orange bucktail right under the surface, let alone see ANY follows. I know you can't deny that.
Although there may have been some confusion, my original question was when you KNOW you have had a follow but the fish seems to have lost interest or took off right away, then how long will you continue to 8, O, or whatever you like to do?
My 2nd question was for stained waters like I'm referring to where you can not see your lure once it goes under the surface.
On the other hand, it may be that my first move or L is not as enticing as I'd like to think. Not sure. I feel like it is better than the guy in that simply fishing clip though. Either way, I have had plenty of follows where the fish takes off as soon as it reaches the side of the boat. The idea with starting the thread was to be able to convert a few more of these fish.
Which brings me to another question. If a lot of you guys are saying you usually get them to eat in the 2nd or 3rd turn... What if they don't? If the fish seems to dodge off some, do you just stop? I wouldn't think so.
Good information though all around!
Edited by MartinTD 3/24/2011 9:52 AM
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Well first things first - why the flash-offs? Maybe they saw you or you flinched, or maybe the got close enough to the bait to realize it 'felt' better than it looked when they saw it up close..
There's a couple things to consider when your nearing the boat at the end of a retrieve and that is to draw the eye away from you and the boat. Generally, if I'm in the front of the boat I'll angle my rod out towards the front when the lure is about 15' out, or if I'm in the back of the boat, I'll manuver the rod to point towards the back.. This initial change in the direction of your bait that can sometimes induce a strike before they ever reach the boat and at the very least convert a window shoppers direction away from your silohuouette. Doing this also sets you up for the big oval.
Say you're in the front of the boat and you angle the rod towards the front so as to draw the lure away from your feet at the last 15 feet of the retrieve or so.. Now as you get closer in, with a clean sweep you can dig down and sweep past your feet on the inside of the oval.. This draws their eyes down so they still don't see you. On the first outside turn, you bring the bait up and around the outside of the oval and when you're ready to make the third turn and bring her back to your feet, you drive that bait right back down. In essense, you're attempting to keep the fish from seeing you through and through.. This helps with the flash offs.
So you have three things working for you with this method. 1) Direction change can induce a strike before your bait reaches your feet, 2) You're drawing their eyes away from you - not distracting their focus on the lure, and 3) You're setting yourself up for a big oval comfortably and with ease.
Edited by Sam Ubl 3/24/2011 10:45 AM
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Location: Contrarian Island | sorry, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or belittle anyone but I stand by the major points in my posts...if I came across the wrong way to Doug or anyone I apologize....
Learning to spot follows is key but there are times and fish that give you no chance... and I don't care who it is ...they won't see em coming... |
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Posts: 897
| dougj - 3/23/2011 9:10 PM
Well, I figured that would get a few replies! No BN you're not reading my reply wrong! I sort of supect that the lakes that you are fishing will make a lots of difference. Almost all the fish we get on the LOTWs are coming off structure from a shoreline. I've never had a fish out of open water (I've tried) On the LOTWs (and all the other Ontario lakes I've fished, many more) you'll see the fish that you'll catch on an eight. Like I've stated I've had many guys do blind figure-8's and no one has ever caught a fish (maybe a few, but not many, 30 years guiding and 100's of clients). I can think of a couple, but not enough to worry about. We've caught a good number of 50"fish on figure-8's but only after we've seen them following. We've caught many a fish on the "L", but you if you are watching you can see the fish coming. Just because there's a lots of folks who think it pays to do an extensive blind figure-8 there must be people who catch some. But I'll bet that if you could figure out a way to measure fishing success. I.E. Catch/unit/effort (how long does it take to catch a fish), I'll bet that the folks who do a "L" and that make another cast to another spot rather than stirring the water with a figure-8 would be far ahead. I think there's been too much emphasis put on the blind figure-8 at boat side. Your are much better off making another cast to a new location than stirring the water at boat side! Personal opinion!!!! Doug Johnson
I've been on LOTW a total of 9 days and already have one on a "blind" figure 8, well, actually an oval. Hit on the third turn and came off shallow structure, boat was in 10'. I've also caught a number of fish on other lakes that I never saw until they ate at some point during the oval. I think a person should be doing at least one complete 8 or oval at the end of every cast, regardless of water clarity (never know when that fish is gonna attack from under the boat, or is coming from the side or behind), more if you're getting late follows. Sure you can come back on fish, but that doesn't always work and you may only get one shot at an active fish before it feeds or leaves the area. |
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Posts: 580
| Just in reference to LOTW, I completely agree with Doug J on this one. I believe that 95%+ of the muskies that are catchable in 8 are seen well in advance of the start of the 8. Sure, in a week's time I might catch 1 fish doing a bind figure 8. But I believe that I might catch 3 or 4 or more by having made more casts to likely targets because I'm not fussing around with a full 8 after every cast.
If I'm on LOTW for a week, for me, it's a simple matter of percentages and efficiency...I want to contact as many fish as possible and the way I do that is by making as many casts to likely targets as possible.
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| A figure 8 in dirty water is like a figure 8 after dark, you can't see a #*^@ thing! I do two, but as Doug Johnson said, it is just my opinion. I don't think there is necessarily a right answer and I don't think there is necessarily a wrong answer. Valid arguements for both sides, so I would do what you have more confidence in. I would do at least one full 8 regardless of day, night, water clarity, fish spotted, or no fish spotted. Just my opinion |
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| I would figure 8 for a couple minutes if you have spotted a fish and it is no longer visible. There was an article by Tom Gelb that said he would keep it going for four or more minutes. I have seen fish come back after two or three, so I am convinced it works. Personal opinion - 5 minutes max. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Fish are weird, no way around that.. It's up to the angler to read the fish if she comes in. If you get a chance to lay eyes on her, you probably have an idea what kind of mood she's in and it's up to your "in the moment" experience to take the lead. Musky fishing is all about trial and error, which I'm sure will last us all a lifetime. |
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Posts: 444
| I have also caught fish on LOTW's doing a blind figure 8, fish came from underneath the boat, fishing mid lake reef...
I agree with BN on this one (it's not possible to see every following fish) and i myself try and do 2 nice big figure eights after every cast...seen to many missed fish with doing a lazy L... |
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Posts: 8782
| I don't think anybody has said you can't or won't catch fish in those situations. I've caught two that I never saw. I think the point Doug is trying to make is that you're wasting time doing figure 8's for a fish that's not even there, and likely passing up the opportunity to make another cast at a fish that just might be. More casts=more fish, essentially. Sure, you might miss a late arrival, but how many of those lazy low and slow fish that came in late do you actually convert? |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I guess I look at it like Scotty T said...imo that ONE fish you do convert by executing a fig 8 (not 3 8s) and it comes out of nowhere to smash your bait could be THE fish that makes or breaks a day/trip/season..his first 50 came from below the boat in stained water (shallow too) to pounce on his "Oprah" bucktail in a blind figure 8 situation...so that fish, made his day, heck made my day/trip to see the look on his face when it hit and went in the bag some 5 yrs ago...had he not done it...he wouldn't have had his 1st 50 in the bag to smile about .... imo doing a figure 8 in some situations and water clarities is the difference between going home with a 50 in the net or going home w your tail between your legs...where I fish...doing at least a partial 8 will put more fish in the bag over the course of a season than firing off 100 more casts ... i get what Doug is saying and I get it.. maybe on LOTW it is different but the waters I fish it makes more sense to do it than not...too many experiences and big ones in the net or missed chances to ever think otherwise....but that's just me. do whatever works for you and puts fish in net..i know what works for me
Edited by BNelson 3/24/2011 12:16 PM
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | I think my point was the same that MartinTD was trying to make. I fished the Petenwell Flowage several times last year. Have any of you fished it? It's like chocolate milk out there. I could hardly see my fluorescent pink Pearson Grinder Spinnerbait a few *inches* under the surface of the water much less anticipate or make a visual on a following fish. It is impossible. Completely impossible.
That's why I think there are so many variables and different varying opinions with no hardfast right or wrong answer. |
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Posts: 17
Location: Park Falls, WI | Living and fishing in northern wisconsin last year I can honestly say that over half of the fish I caught last year were on the blind figure 8. The waters around me last year were very dark due to high water to add though. Gets me thinking either my retrieve sucks or my figure 8' are good!! |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Yeah, Petenwell is a murk pool. It is also poor figure 8 water compared to the grand scheme. Its' backyard so has gotten biased attention over the years, and while we get an occasional, it is far from high % 8 water. The following fish tend to be quite boat shy. Over the past several years, more and more fish are showing up at the boat however. Only thing that's changed much is pressure. Got two on eights there last year in May alone, which is a higher than typical number for a month of fishing here.
To simply blanket categorize dark water fish as being better blind 8 water is a mistake. Every lake is different, no matter the water clarity/type and it can vary from one flowage to the next on the same river. This is not a rule but far more often than not, our good eight lakes in WI are quite clear compared to the 'non' 8 lakes in a given county/region etc. Do I miss a few hits not doing a complete 8 on my 'non' 8 lakes every time(I still do an L)? Perhaps, but not enough for me to blind 8 every time. On the other hand, there are just as many lakes that finishing is as important as the rest of the cast.
I've only fished a handful of Canadien waters, dark and clear and all have prven higher % 8 lakes than my local pond. One I haven't fished that is similar to Petenwell in clarity, is Wabigoon. Is that consistantly great 8 water like Eagle, just down the road?
Edited by Reef Hawg 3/24/2011 4:12 PM
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| Can you catch a fish "blind" on LOTW? well sure....BUT you will catch many more by watching your lure come to the boat, do a correct L , nothing there - fire the next cast. Doing a full 8 after every cast is a waste of time and 3 well that is just silly.
Night fishing MN 3 full 8's make total sense. |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | For me, it depends on several factors:
1. Water clarity. In very dark or stained water, a figure-8 or at least a circle or "L" can make a big difference if no fish are seen.
2. The mood of the fish. Sometimes the fish are hitting close to the boat or following far befind and then coming in and hitting on a figure-8. I have seen times when the fish don't show up until one does at least one full figure-8.
3. The type of structure. I am more likely to figure-8 if we are fishing deeper water or a deep edge where the fish are more likely to come from under the boat. In shallow water, I am more likely to do an "L" if no fish are seen. On deeper areas, I will often do a big circle if no fish are seen.
4. How many fish we are seeing and where they are coming from. If they're all coming from far out, then not so much. But if fish are coming from under the boat, then a full figure-8 on every cast.
5. My mood at the time. I usually don't figure-8 so much if I feel particulary tired or lazy.
Now, if I have a big fish up near the boat, I will figure-8 until my arms are about ready to fall off.
Edited by Herb_b 3/25/2011 12:06 PM
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How long do you figure 8?