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| I've never used curly sues personally, but does anyone feel like there's a noteable difference between the two? |
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Location: Oshkosh | MADE IN THE USA!
Peter |
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Location: Iowa Great Lakes | Like all baits they have their time and place, both do something a little different so one won't replace the other, just another tool to use. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | Curly sues are made in the USA and are very durable. They will last you many fish. |
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| shaley - 2/20/2011 12:45 PM
Like all baits they have their time and place, both do something a little different so one won't replace the other, just another tool to use.
Do you have any examples of how you use the two differently? |
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| Curly sues have moe of a hopping action. |
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Location: Iowa Great Lakes | I don't use them differently, sometimes the fish prefer one over the other. Curlies have a little more profile and fit inbetween a mag dawg/pounder, maybe they give off a different vibe in the water I'm not sure, can't answer why somedays a mag dawg will get all the action and a curlie or Super D won't get a look, or why some days they only want the Super D over any of the others.. |
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Location: Denmark | Generally I think the Sue's works i little higher in the water column than the Dawgs, using the same speed. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | MADE IN THE USA!
Yet the computer and monitor, keyboard and mouse you used to post your comment probably are not. |
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| sworrall - 2/20/2011 4:59 PM
MADE IN THE USA!
Yet the computer and monitor, keyboard and mouse you used to post your comment probably are not.
Is there anyting wrong with supporting american jobs whenever possible? Finding a computer made in america is alot harder than finding a musky lure that is.  |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No, actually it isn't. |
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Location: Hayward, WI | Well, the Shack Attack baits ARE made in the USA by a great guy who is a great guy to support. Bulldawgs aren't made here, and are mass produced. Tackle Industries aren't made here either, but the company is owned by a very honest upstanding guy, who is also worth supporting... I don't ONLY buy my baits based on where they are made, so saying that:
Curly Sues are amazingly durable. You'll no doubt catch several fish on one before having to retire it. I have a blue/silver that I'm not even sure how many fish I have caught and lost on it, and it just keeps on going. They have more of a straight hopping action, but can be made to walk the dog a little. I think in their stock form they fish a little shallower, but you can bend them down slightly and they will fish quite deep. They come in sizes frm very small, to regular Dawg size, to between Mag and Pounder size, and also a Monster one...
Dawgs are good now too. Used to have very low quality, but that has now changed. They will usually catch several fish too before falling apart. Not as durable as the Curly Sues but pretty good. They have a little different action. Can be made to walk the dog underwater fairly easily.
I don't know if I could give a scenario where I would use one over the other, but Bulldawgs, Curly Sues, and Super Ds are all different and worth having.
curleytail |
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Location: Michigan | I personally do not like the Curley Sue and would definitely recommend getting some SuperDs, Dawgs, and HardHeads before getting Curley Sues. As people have said, the action of the baits are different and it just seems the fish like the action of the others a lot more than the Sues. I have also had great customer service experience with James from TackleIndustry, Roger from H20 Tackle, and the people from Musky Innovations while my experience with Shack Attack has been not great. All that said, buy some of each bait and work with them this year and see which ones you like to fish and which ones the fish like. |
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| A few years ago i was also on the fence as the original poster. What i did was went to the ohio musky show (closest show to me, still a 4 hour drive...) and actually felt both brand of baits in my hands to make my decision. After i felt the difference it was a no brainer for me, Shack Attack all the way. I do not have the budget to buy alot of similar baits so i went with the maker of quality baits. That is how I made my decision.
Try to get each brand in your hands (however you can, store, friends, buy one of each...) and feel them, its your money. Buy the one you like more.
While |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Imports don't have much to do with our economic troubles right now.
I find many things made in China to be of equal quality and sometimes better quality when compared to items made here. The quality achieved is up to the company having the product built.
I find it very interesting that outboard motors, televisions, computers, clothing, food items, automobile parts, tires, and many other higher priced items don't even get a second look as to where they are made, but Muskie lures suddenly become a critical economic force.
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| Steve,
No disrespect intended, but it is attitudes like yours that are not helping the economy.
The reason musky lures get mentioned on here and not computers, TV’s etc is because this is a musky fishing website, but I am sure you already know that. This is what guys will talk about and is part of the subject being discussed.
Musky lures ARE a critical economic force to a lot of people and their families. What would happen if the likes of Phantom Lures, Suick, Drifter Tackle and some of the others sent all their products to China? There would be a lot of people out of work and it would be more than just a handful, it would be in the hundreds. Now tell these people that musky lures are not a critical economic force.
Unfortunately we don’t have a choice on everything we buy to make sure it’s made in America, but in the world of musky lures, there is a little glimmer of hope.
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Location: Musky Country | sworrall - 2/21/2011 8:30 AM
Imports don't have much to do with our economic troubles right now.
I find many things made in China to be of equal quality and sometimes better quality when compared to items made here.
Cool than Lets send more jobs oversea's GREAT IDEA!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| Never had a suzy sucker that rolls. Did you store the bait so the tail hangs more to one side? Because that can cause it. |
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| MartinTD - 2/21/2011 10:35 AM
sworrall - 2/21/2011 8:30 AM
Imports don't have much to do with our economic troubles right now.
I find many things made in China to be of equal quality and sometimes better quality when compared to items made here. The quality achieved is up to the company having the product built.
I agree 100%. In today's global economy it is a no brainer why companies are sending work overseas. Thank your labor unions in the U.S. for that one! Besides, the companies that are having their product made in China are owned and operated by Americans; How many people do you think Musky Innovations has on their payroll in the U.S.? I would bet more than Suick! You can't blame them for wanting to be competitive. If sending the production work to China means making $3 on each lure instead of $1.25 for an equal quality lure, after selling the volume that companies like Musky Innovations do in a year - big difference in amount of profits to be made. It's a business like any other. The companies that ARE still making lures in the U.S. I feel are either, behind the times a bit OR small enough that they are mostly family owned and operated. Just my .02
BTW, I live in Antigo, WI - home of Suick and Mepps.
With regards to Curly Sues - I do not like them due to the fact they seem to turn on the side all the time. Same is true with the suzy suckers. I feel like the tail has good action and everything but when I get it close to the boat, I can see them coming in on their side which is annoying. As if their is not enough weight on the bottom of the lure. Not sure if anyone else has experienced this...
Martin,
Perhaps I am a little behind the times and should get everything made in China, then I can sit back and drink cocktails all day long and count my money. I will stick with the way I am doing it, as I respect the people I help make a living supplying me the materials I need to make my lures.
As for who employs more, Suick or MI, think about it, Suick make all their own lures and thus have to employ people to do it. MI has their stuff made overseas, so how many people does that take? You live in the same town as Suick and Mepps, perhaps you should do some homework and find out how many people in your area would be affected if these two companies sent everything overseas. I don’t know the answer to that, but you could find out and let me know.
By the way, I am in no way here to bash any other lure companies and how they conduct their businesses.
Also, if you have a problem with any of my lures, just send them back to me and I will take care of you and make sure that you are happy with my products. Seeing as I make the lures, I only have myself to blame if they don’t work properly and I am always looking for ways to improve my products.
this is my last post on this subject, as I don't have time to spend in front of the computer, I have lures to make. |
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| I have been on both sides of this table, and have so much to say about this, but this isn’t the forum for me to do so. I do just need to say though that I have worked in manufacturing my entire life and I have seen countless jobs, businesses, and heck even towns disappear due to work being outsourced offshore so someone can make a few extra bucks. I think that is a shame. It was manufacturing that made this country great and the continued loss of it has VERY much to do with the economic times we are in right now. Yes it is hard to find “Made in USA” in all products, but when it comes to musky tackle, I have the ability to and the preference to buy and source it local, and I will continue to do so. |
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| http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/world-news-made-america-challenge-g...
this looks like an interesting experiment |
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Location: Freedom, WI | I am with mrichardson on this one as I think he has a better handle on it than I do.
Martin do not blame one thing as the problem, there are lots of them. One big one most overlook or do not know is the money changers on Wall Street and the laws that where in place, companies had 2 choices, putting money in aging infrastructure which cost money and not a fast return or going off shore to help their bottom line look good. |
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Location: Hayward, WI | It must REALLY be the middle of winter if even Worrall is debating economics in a thread about rubber baits. 
Why don't we get back at it and discuss the effectiveness of these baits, not where they are being made.
Regarding those rubber baits rolling over on their side, maybe they just had to be tuned (bent) one way or the other? I have several of them and never had one that couldn't be tuned to run just how I wanted it. Most if not all ran true on the 1st cast.
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| Shack Attack - 2/21/2011 9:18 AM
Steve,
No disrespect intended, but it is attitudes like yours that are not helping the economy.
The reason musky lures get mentioned on here and not computers, TV’s etc is because this is a musky fishing website, but I am sure you already know that.
Thank you. |
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| sworrall - 2/21/2011 9:30 AM
Imports don't have much to do with our economic troubles right now.
I find many things made in China to be of equal quality and sometimes better quality when compared to items made here. The quality achieved is up to the company having the product built.
I find it very interesting that outboard motors, televisions, computers, clothing, food items, automobile parts, tires, and many other higher priced items don't even get a second look as to where they are made, but Muskie lures suddenly become a critical economic force.
amen to that
i would also add the following
more than 80 % of musky lures dosnt create a single job,the owner build his stuff so what the difference if the bait is made in china or usa?
btw if china economy is bad usa is gona get in trouble,they lend lots of big $$ to usa,like it or not.
i want something that caught fish not a lure that have stars and stripes or in my case a red maple leaf |
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| I respect everybody's opinions here, but I'm really just interested in which one works better and why. Thank you to those of you who actually answered my question instead of showcasing your economic brilliance. |
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| I threw the dawgs for many years until the and they went to the initial solid wire internal harnesses and in my opinion the quality of the lures declined. I then moved away from throwing soft plastics.
I then found Shack Attack lures and found the quality and durability to be much higher. However, the fish did not respond to my presentations accordingly. Basically, where the bulldawgs would fall apart on me, while attracting muskies....the Shack Attacks held up perfectly, but I could not get the fish to react to them. I caught fish on dawgs which fell apart on me. The Shack Attacks were indestrucatable but I caught no fish on them.
Last year I went back to giving Musky Innovations a try and found that the pro dawgs attracted fish, but ran poorly with anything but a very slow pull-pause retrive. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | I fish alot in Canada, and I use the Curly Sues and the Suzy Suckers, and the Muskies on the Lakes I fish will inhale them. They do have a different action/fall rate then a M/I BullDawg, which I will not buy. Thank U Andy for a Quality Bait. U can't work all baits the same, take some time and work with the bait, somtimes a different leader will change the action of a bait. |
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Location: MN | Both are good baits and both catch fish.
Here's a little mod. If you fish any lakes with ciscoes, you can move the eyes of the Curly Sue up forward and make it look similar to the eye positioning / head of a ciscoe. Not sure if it makes a difference, but my "Suzy the Cisco" (as she's named) has had some awful big Vermilion & Mille Lacs muskies look at her and this little guy wanted to mate with her. Pic below shows the new eye positioning.
Attachments
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 Suzi the Ciscoe.jpg (31KB - 241 downloads)
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| PIKEMASTER-"sometimes a different leader will change the action of a bait"- That is so true, Try a weighted leader from Stealth tackle on either bait you will be amazed at the increased action. Gives both alot better hop, triggers more strikes and gets the bait down where it needs to be. Adding a splitring to front of the bait will help with action as well.
Jeff Hanson
madisonmuskyguide.com |
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Location: Denmark | sworrall - 2/21/2011 8:30 AM
Imports don't have much to do with our economic troubles right now.
No, but It's a global tread to all western economies on long terms(because of full scale liberalism), mainly that Production and Engineering etc, is being outsourced to India and China. The full effect of this might not be affecting our generations, but those to come.
What will come, I'd rather not think about, hopefully I will be dead by then.
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Location: Detroit River | pepsiboy - 2/21/2011 4:04 PM
i would also add the following
more than 80 % of musky lures dosnt create a single job,the owner build his stuff so what the difference if the bait is made in china or usa?
The difference is that the guy in the US making his baits by himself spends that money in the US, which contributes to other US businesses & adds tax revenue to pay for welfare programs etc.
I can't comment on the baits as I have yet to use the Curly Sues but have wanted to try them. I thought they were going to be at the Michigan show but I thought wrong.
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Location: Land of the Musky | I hate to comment on this but there are different sides to this story...
Speaking of greed: In past years my average tax paid to the US gov. on every $1 of profit was almost $0.70! Yes, $0.70 on the dollar of my net profits. I think I am doing my part here feeding the tax man. There is no tax max for a small business BTW. You want to know who has "greed"? The US government! Just to add, when I used to make all of my baits in the USA 6 years ago I almost went bankrupt because I listened to people saying "make it in the USA". I did make them in the USA and nobody bought them including retailers due to the higher wholesale/retail I had to charge. Plus I have yet to find one lure comapny in the USA that has the quality control and can keep up with my order quantities. One company in WI took OVER 1 year to make me only 360 Grunts and every one went to the burn pit thanks to a crappy job on the paint they did. I now use Dutch Fork in PA and he has top quality controls and workmanship but can not do 5000+ a year for me and I have almost 30 lines of lures right now. So, I now make most (not all) overseas and I can finally keep up with demand and with very detailed attention to raw materials and quality control they are top notch baits. I have found that people say one things but when they open their wallet they say a different thing.
In short, the US government needs to dump some of the tax burden off of small companies in the USA or every job will be outsourced soon. To be competitive our government needs to stop the waste, stop funding other countries, dump some or all of the employee taxes businesses have to pay and make our country more competitive vs the rest of the world. It can happen.
JMHO
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| They are both good baits, the Sues are built better though. Being a factory worker, I do like the MADE IN AMERICA part. The 11 inch curly sue definately takes more out of a guy than a mag dawg in a 12 hour day. LOL................... |
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Location: WI | MuskieMark01 - 2/20/2011 12:43 PM
I've never used curly sues personally, but does anyone feel like there's a noteable difference between the two?
I'd recommend having a few. I fish w/ curly sue's, superD's, and bulldawgs and they all have there differences. It's nice to be able to switch between them when your moving the fish but just not getting them to eat. I don't really think there is a difference in quality either. I had my issues w/ M.I. in the past, but I seems they have things figured out and I've some dawgs go through hell and are still putting fish in the boat. |
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| raftman - 2/21/2011 8:37 PM
MuskieMark01 - 2/20/2011 12:43 PM
I've never used curly sues personally, but does anyone feel like there's a noteable difference between the two?
I'd recommend having a few. I fish w/ curly sue's, superD's, and bulldawgs and they all have there differences. It's nice to be able to switch between them when your moving the fish but just not getting them to eat. I don't really think there is a difference in quality either. I had my issues w/ M.I. in the past, but I seems they have things figured out and I've some dawgs go through hell and are still putting fish in the boat.
What exactly are superD's? I'm not familiar with the name. |
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Location: Michigan | Check out http://www.tackleindustries.com/ |
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Location: Iowa Great Lakes | C Wulf - 2/21/2011 7:16 PM
They are both good baits, the Sues are built better though. Being a factory worker, I do like the MADE IN AMERICA part. The 11 inch curly sue definately takes more out of a guy than a mag dawg in a 12 hour day. LOL...................
Yea but your a sissy.... LOL |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Shack Attack - 2/21/2011 9:18 AM
Steve,
No disrespect intended, but it is attitudes like yours that are not helping the economy.
The reason musky lures get mentioned on here and not computers, TV’s etc is because this is a musky fishing website, but I am sure you already know that. This is what guys will talk about and is part of the subject being discussed.
Musky lures ARE a critical economic force to a lot of people and their families. What would happen if the likes of Phantom Lures, Suick, Drifter Tackle and some of the others sent all their products to China? There would be a lot of people out of work and it would be more than just a handful, it would be in the hundreds. Now tell these people that musky lures are not a critical economic force.
Unfortunately we don’t have a choice on everything we buy to make sure it’s made in America, but in the world of musky lures, there is a little glimmer of hope.
Attitudes like mine? How does looking at the economy realistically cause any issues? What I said is reality. It's a global economy out there, and our economic survival depends on it. You make your own lures. Good for you, that's a good thing. If you lived in Bolivia, you'd make them there. Hire 150 people to build your lures to meet the demand and decide to build a $1 Million dollar factory, and then let's talk.
Let's talk reels a minute. That's different somehow? Nope. It's OK to throw a Suzy Sucker and holler MADE IN THE USA!! and toot the freaking horn like it's the end of the world typing on the computer made in China that the reel needs to be a Shimano? How does THAT work?
Hundreds...that many folks are in and out of work in the USA in moments. Muskie lures are NOT a major economic force out there in our economy; in fact the majority are considered cottage industry or smaller. I submit the reason some lure builders stay in the USA is because they have not hit the volume and are not filling the SKUs that would cause them to look at the options seriously.
I co-operate a business that's 100% USA based. That doesn't make me a Patriot.
Reality is, some folks prefer US built goods. That's cool. Many, however, don't look for the country of origin, they look for customer satisfaction, customer service, and more and buy accordingly. All of those folks are the main engine of our economy, and thier choices to buy and be taxed on that purchase is what drives our base economy.
Our great state is busted. Yet they drive manufacturing out of the state by taxing them to near extinction, and in some cases chase them clean out of the country.
Capitalism...it's a wonderful thing with plenty of pitfalls.
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Jeff Hanson - 2/21/2011 5:07 PM
PIKEMASTER-"sometimes a different leader will change the action of a bait"- That is so true, Try a weighted leader from Stealth tackle on either bait you will be amazed at the increased action. Gives both alot better hop, triggers more strikes and gets the bait down where it needs to be. Adding a splitring to front of the bait will help with action as well.
Jeff Hanson
madisonmuskyguide.com
The weighted leaders from STEALTH TACKLE ( MADE IN U.S.A.) are great, I tried them out and use them alot now. Also the size/weight of the hooks will affect the actions of baits to. |
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| x2 to what James said. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Curly Sues ARE made of a more durable material, that said, they are also tougher to sink teeth into and IMO, less appealing for a musky to keep their jaws clamped down on. In addition, when a fish can't sink its teeth into the rubber, like they can a Bulldawg or SuperD, driving the hooks home on the hookset can and HAS been an issue I've expereinced with tougher rubber. Another case and point; I have said this before and believe it makes enough difference for you to consider when you're buying rubber, the rounder the head, the more water the lure will displace. While the SuperD has a slightly more aerodynamic head than the Bulldawg, it's not that far off. That said, the Curly Sues tend to have a narrow head, making them very aerodynamic, such that the glide and pull is easier and the invisible water displacement cannot contend with rubber built with rounder, more stubbed heads. One would have to imagine that in the depths of the basin where you're ripping big rubber, visibility may become more of a second hand "calling power" of the lure, while "feel" may be the primary "dinner's ready" whistle.
I'll add that when you buy into MI rubber, bare in mind the differences in the glide and pull based on the harness. The flexy 7 strand tends to favor a curve off to one side of the other on the rip - I prefer to tune my rubber so that it glides perfectly straight, so I lean towards the wire harness'. The only time I want to see belly rolls or curving off to one side or the other is when I make the lure do it - I want to be in control of the lure and know what it looks like every time I sweep my rod, even when it's 40 feet out there.
FYI - If I'm not mistaken, Brad Ruh has incorporated American Made hardware onto his Dawgs in the last couple years... and thanks Prof., for the correction on my spelling error. |
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| The term is aerodynamic or in this case I’ve seen it advertised as “hydrodynamic” lol. Water displacement is a factor of volume; shape has nothing to do with it. When moving through the water, the shape of a lure determines its vortex generators that cause turbulent flow; this is what a musky can sense.
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Thanks Prof. Peabody, so a Curly Sue being thicker then a MI Bulldawg will generate more turbulent flow, over a MI Bulldawg. Funny, so the nose of the Dawg has nothing to do with hydrodynamic. THANKS |
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| Kinda, it’s more about pressure waves and creating them. Volume of the bait, shape of the bait, and the force applied to move it through the water are your factors there.
A streamlined glider will have a wide swing, a bull nosed one will not. If they have the same volume they will have the same water displacement. Do they create the same detectible pressure wave? Do the muskies care? Yes and no, No and yes
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Prof. Peabody - 2/22/2011 9:06 AM The term is aerodynamic or in this case I’ve seen it advertised as “hydrodynamic” lol. Water displacement is a factor of volume; shape has nothing to do with it. When moving through the water, the shape of a lure determines its vortex generators that cause turbulent flow; this is what a musky can sense.
The vortex, or "tracks" that a lure leaves behind in it's path is certainly a factor of the water displacement and I pleasantly disagree at this stage in this discussion, that a wider blunt nose doesn't push more water... What I need to see is a ballistics gell demonstration of a round vs narrow bullet.
The blunt head of a straight traveling lure means everything in the way of waking up a sleeping giant with a lure that has little more than a fluttery tail for action, then again, this is my theory - let's take this a little further. I believe aerodynamics of a narrow lure with limited action, other than it's tail, will create less of a vortex, as you put it, than something with a wider/rounder head.
I would venture to suggest a wider tail, like Storms version of BIG rubber, would push more water in more directions than that of a thinner tail, like MI, TI and SA. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | I have no problem being wrong, so long as I learn something. |
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| Water is incompressible and is fluid (obviously). Ballistics gel is not comparable. Less do this… Say you have water flowing downstream and there is a projection from the riverbank creating an eddy. The eddy itself would be the turbulent flow or “trail”, the distance the projection sticks out from the bank would be the size of the bait or it’s “volume”. When the water flows around this point and is pushed out or “displaced” out into the river, does it matter if it was a smooth transition or an abrupt one? I think not, the displacement will be the same. Does the location of the felt “displacement” change with the different shapes? Possibly, but on a musky lure it cannot be more than a few inches or few seconds apart.
I’m not a professor, but I did stay in a holiday inn express last night, just theorizing myself here too…
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| I know what you're saying Peabody but in the fishing world, "water displacement" is a commonly used term for what Sam is describing. Now, the amount of water a bulldawg pushes and the amount of water a sue pushes is obviously going to be different. I would agree that it would be very minimal, however, the wider head of a dawg IS going to move more water. That's just common sense. It's like holding your hand out the window while driving; hold your hand straight forward, then turn it so your palm is facing forward. More surface area is going to create more turbulence. Whether or not "water displacement" is truly the correct term; Who cares! Point taken Sam. |
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| Sam Ubl - 2/22/2011 8:36 AM
Curly Sues ARE made of a more durable material, that said, they are also tougher to sink teeth into and IMO, less appealing for a musky to keep their jaws clamped down on.
What does this have to do with catching a muskie? What about a suick, plastic twitchbait, etc. Generally, don't we set the hook immediately after we feel a strike? Are you telling me with Curly Sues the muskies hit, feel that it's hard rubber, and let go before you have time to set the hook? |
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Location: Hayward, WI | This thread has taken some pretty interesting turns! I do know that I own Curly Sues, Bulldawgs, and Super D's, and have caught fish on all of them. No bait really stands out over the other in terms of productivity in the long haul. I do have to agree with Sam somewhat in that a blunt nosed lure probably pushes more water than a slender nosed one. However, curly Sues also have bigger fins on them as well, which have to do something. I would bet that to a musky, all the rubber baits being discussed can be heard, and that they also all sound slightly different.
Also, Sam, I respect your opinion but do you really think Shack Attack baits are so hard that they feel unnatural to a fish? If you pick up a sucker, walleye, crappie, etc. the real thing is harder than the plastic of a Dawg in my opinion.
Good discussion. A little bit of fluff to pick through but there is some good stuff in here.
Tucker |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Guest - 2/22/2011 12:14 PM Sam Ubl - 2/22/2011 8:36 AM Curly Sues ARE made of a more durable material, that said, they are also tougher to sink teeth into and IMO, less appealing for a musky to keep their jaws clamped down on. What does this have to do with catching a muskie? What about a suick, plastic twitchbait, etc. Generally, don't we set the hook immediately after we feel a strike? Are you telling me with Curly Sues the muskies hit, feel that it's hard rubber, and let go before you have time to set the hook?
Good question. What I'm conveying is that a softer rubber, like that of the MI Dawgs and TI SuperD's, is something to 'sink your teeth into', similar to real forage. Consider a bass fisherman who's smallie just got chomped by a musky. Have you seen any YouTube vids on how long these fish will hold on before letting go? Sometimes you can get the ski in the net after an intense battle without ever setting hooks into the fish. Case and point - some guys will hang a hookless sucker for ski's in the early spring and in the fall. . Once they sink their teeth in, they don't want to let go.
Take a harder or stiffer rubber and sure you have durability, BUT, you also have something that when I musky grabs on, it feels foreign and isn't forgiving to the pressure of their chomp.
So yes, I believe two things happen here.
1) They clamp down and are quick to spit it out
2) When you set the hook, the teeth won't slice through the rubber as easy, allowing for you to drive those hooks home into that hard boney mouth.
This isn't always the case, sometimes they hit it just right and there's little they can do to avoid getting hooked, and in some cases you wouldn't have even needed to set the hook because they hit it just right. For consistencies sake, I prefer softer rubber - fish bite and don't let go, plus you have that hook setting advantage. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | curleytail - 2/22/2011 12:41 PM Sam, I respect your opinion but do you really think Shack Attack baits are so hard that they feel unnatural to a fish? If you pick up a sucker, walleye, crappie, etc. the real thing is harder than the plastic of a Dawg in my opinion. Good discussion. A little bit of fluff to pick through but there is some good stuff in here. Tucker
Tucker, for the most part, I believe it's predominantly the "driving the hooks home" with ease of the teeth slicing through the rubber as you set the hook more so than the natural feeling, however, I don't discount that possibility. It's a theory more than anything, but I have to imagine it's true to some degree.
Consider this for a moment; A fish bites down and sinks the teeth in with ease - I suspect the musky might believe her hunt is over and she's the victor, thus she's less likely or willing to let go. Kind of like a war.. When an opponent senses their winning, they press harder, but if they feel like their effort is making only a pin prick, they might back off a little. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Sam Ubl - 2/22/2011 1:18 PM
Consider this for a moment; A fish bites down and sinks the teeth in with ease - I suspect the musky might believe her hunt is over and she's the victor, thus she's less likely or willing to let go. Kind of like a war.. When an opponent senses their winning, they press harder, but if they feel like their effort is making only a pin prick, they might back off a little.
I wonder if fish have enough brain power to think about that ?????
Look at all the fish caught on Hard baits or Metal Spoons, DCG, I don't see fish spitting out Hard baits anymore then Soft baits. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Prof. Peabody - 2/22/2011 10:25 AM
Kinda, it’s more about pressure waves and creating them. Volume of the bait, shape of the bait, and the force applied to move it through the water are your factors there.
A streamlined glider will have a wide swing, a bull nosed one will not. If they have the same volume they will have the same water displacement. Do they create the same detectible pressure wave? Do the muskies care? Yes and no, No and yes
A blunt head bait has more water reresistance then a narrow bait, so it is the size of it's body, the volume / size that what makes a bait displace water. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | I want to clear something up regarding my points on rubber texture: soft vs hard. To be clear, the rubber on the older Shack Attack baits, at least the Suzy Suckers (not so much the Curly Sue's) seemed to get harder over time, or weathered may be the better way to put it. From what I understand the plastic that is used by Shack Attack has been upgraded to a higher quality material that's proven to stay a consistent texture for the life of the lure. To be fair to Shack Attack Lures, I would suspect the tail action on these baits would stay consistent for the life of the lure as a result of the improved rubber, where as some of the older ones with the older rubber would harden up and show a stiffer tail wobble. Either way you look at it, it's very apparent that these three companies, Musky Innovations, Tackle Industries and Shack Attack have taken into account both the positive and especially negative feedback from us consumers and it shows by their constantly improving lures! |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | PIKEMASTER - 2/22/2011 1:57 PM Sam Ubl - 2/22/2011 1:18 PM Consider this for a moment; A fish bites down and sinks the teeth in with ease - I suspect the musky might believe her hunt is over and she's the victor, thus she's less likely or willing to let go. Kind of like a war.. When an opponent senses their winning, they press harder, but if they feel like their effort is making only a pin prick, they might back off a little. I wonder if fish have enough brain power to think about that ????? Look at all the fish caught on Hard baits or Metal Spoons, DCG, I don't see fish spitting out Hard baits anymore then Soft baits. It isn't so much a "thinking" thing for them I suspect, so much as it is a natural reaction. I don't know that comparing blade baits or spoons is very reasonable - you have lures with hooks trailing the bait, and in the case of a DCG, you have two trebles, one mid-section and one trailer, so often is the case that their is little time for a fish to spit out the lure before you lay hooks into her. Now hard baits I can definitely say I've had fish absolutely crush them, literally, so that's a little more of a fair game of comparing apples to oranges. I have pre-fished tournaments with hookless hardbaits on a couple rare occasions when I was first getting into competative fishing several years ago and found out quickly they don't hold on for long, even with minimal resistance. You have to assume a musky has more bite down power on a soft rubber bait then a hardbait. Sure I have some tooth marks in wood and hard plastic lures, but I have inch deep gouges in my rubber baits. Maybe it's just not easy enough for them to let go because of the teeth being burried in the rubber - I think it's fair to say that. With layers of teeth clamping down, a fish would have to open wide and avoid the hooks to spit it out and even then the rubber may stick. You can come up with all the BST's you could care to come up with on why softer rubber may be better than hard, but the MAIN point to consider is redundant of what I've been saying all along - driving the hooks home. I remember a fish that was potentially one of the biggest I've seen eating my MagDawg whole, five feet from the boat. I ripped back but in a couple headshakes, to my dismay, out popped the Dawg... How could it be?? Some of the softest rubber out there but still not soft enough that my hookset drove in those hooks. What I had left was a vivid memory and a tattered bull dawg... Boohoo, it happens. |
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| Zib - 2/21/2011 7:08 PM
pepsiboy - 2/21/2011 4:04 PM
i would also add the following
more than 80 % of musky lures dosnt create a single job,the owner build his stuff so what the difference if the bait is made in china or usa?
The difference is that the guy in the US making his baits by himself spends that money in the US, which contributes to other US businesses & adds tax revenue to pay for welfare programs etc.
I can't comment on the baits as I have yet to use the Curly Sues but have wanted to try them. I thought they were going to be at the Michigan show but I thought wrong.
do you think the owner of tackle industries and musky inovation owner are spending their cash in china? |
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| do you think the chinese workers of tackle industries and musky inovation baits are spending their cash in the US? |
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Posts: 32924
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yep. Levis, Mickey D's, and a plethora of other Capitalistic wasteland items the poor and downtrodden lust for.
There's a business out there in the USA called 'Importing'. Amazing numbers, big dollars to be made if you know the ropes.
There's also this dealybob called exporting. Has to do with GDP and all that sort of stuff, you know, as part of the total.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Press-Release/current_press_rel... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'If they have the same volume they will have the same water displacement. Do they create the same detectible pressure wave? Do the muskies care? Yes and no, No and yes '
Run a piezoelectric device comparing the differing shapes and what happens when they are moved through the water. Then let's talk. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | So what is a Piezoelectric device ????
can U explain ???? |
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Posts: 32924
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hydrophone. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Piezoelectricity means electricity resulting from presure, How does a bait produce energy ????? |
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Location: Detroit River | pepsiboy - 2/22/2011 4:41 PM
Zib - 2/21/2011 7:08 PM
pepsiboy - 2/21/2011 4:04 PM
i would also add the following
more than 80 % of musky lures dosnt create a single job,the owner build his stuff so what the difference if the bait is made in china or usa?
The difference is that the guy in the US making his baits by himself spends that money in the US, which contributes to other US businesses & adds tax revenue to pay for welfare programs etc.
I can't comment on the baits as I have yet to use the Curly Sues but have wanted to try them. I thought they were going to be at the Michigan show but I thought wrong.
do you think the owner of tackle industries and musky inovation owner are spending their cash in china?
My post was regarding made in US vs. overseas. Sure the MI & TI guys are spending the money they make from selling their lures in the US but they are also supporting those 5 yr-olds in China as well. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 5 year olds?
Here you go, PIKEMASTER:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophone |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Bottom line to the question...... Curly Sues (Biggest ones) run more shallow,... and glide a bit more than the Pounders, but both move fish..... I personally boat more fish on the Pounder because I use it more than the Curly Sue.....
5 Year olds ??? ..... Come on..... get real dude.
Jerome |
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| sworrall - 2/22/2011 5:42 PM
Yep. Levis, Mickey D's, and a plethora of other Capitalistic wasteland items the poor and downtrodden lust for.
I'm not taking sides, I'm just curious at this point. Regardless of whether or not you're "right" with the side you're taking here, you seem to have done some research, and I enjoy debates with people who actually know what they're talking about.
So, at this point I'm just curious: are you making a case for Socialism with these arguments? |
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| As for the pressure wave/shape/volume debate, the same volume will absolutely not mean the same pressure wave. Two differently shaped baits can give off completely different pressure waves despite having the same volume. How elastic or firm the bait is can make a big difference also. |
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| MuskieMark01 - 2/20/2011 12:43 PM
I've never used curly sues personally, but does anyone feel like there's a noteable difference between the two?
Buy one of each of your best color and try them out yourself....
You decide "everyone has their own opinion".. |
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Location: Detroit River | Top H2O - 2/22/2011 10:26 PM
5 Year olds ??? ..... Come on..... get real dude.
Jerome
Apparently you never heard about the child labor camps in China? |
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Location: Eagle River, WI | Zib - 2/22/2011 11:03 PM
Top H2O - 2/22/2011 10:26 PM
5 Year olds ??? ..... Come on..... get real dude.
Jerome
Apparently you never heard about the child labor camps in China?
I guess if I was a 5 year old in China I would rather be making musky baits than sewing together Nikes.
I find it amazing that our national economy is hinged on where/or who I buy my baits from. I know I buy alot of baits but I didn't think or national economy was founded on it.
Anyways, back to the buy/sell forum. Is it ok if I buy baits from Canadians? I don't want to be solely responsible for bringing our fragile economy to it's knees during these tough economic times. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Zib, I would bet my favorite reel Muskie lures are not built in child labor camps.
'So, at this point I'm just curious: are you making a case for Socialism with these arguments?'
No. Capitalism. I like the concept and do my best to do well at it, and am somewhat amazed folks participate wholly without at least a rudimentary understanding of the process and how our economy actually functions within the 'world economy'.
Isolationism never worked for poo, and for sure won't get it done these days.
It wasn't religion or politics that brought down the wall. The USSR basically went bust. I guess 7.62X39 ammo doesn't eat very well.
SO buy how you want, and I'll buy how I want. Look at the link I posted above. |
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Location: Denmark | sworrall - 2/23/2011 12:18 AM
Zib, I would bet my favorite reel Muskie lures are not built in child labor camps.
'So, at this point I'm just curious: are you making a case for Socialism with these arguments?'
No. Capitalism. I like the concept and do my best to do well at it, and am somewhat amazed folks participate wholly without at least a rudimentary understanding of the process and how our economy actually functions within the 'world economy'.
Isolationism never worked for poo, and for sure won't get it done these days.
It wasn't religion or politics that brought down the wall. The USSR basically went bust. I guess 7.62X39 ammo doesn't eat very well.
SO buy how you want, and I'll buy how I want. Look at the link I posted above.
There is sound capitalism, or capitalism of the multinational corporations,(where I have been working a great deal of time). A lot of them are outsourcing not only their tasks, but also large parts of their corporations, to avoid the different taxes or social security fees applied to them by western governments.
Multinationals backed by private owed banks, are actually undermining healthy capitalism as well as the whole western democracy, handling over the initiative of the world economy to "communist" countries like China. Ironically we could claim that the ultra liberalists, are actually the greatest supporters of communism today ;).
And I totally agree with James, that with the tax pressure we have in the West, outsourcing sometimes is the only way smaller companies can survive, but with the recurses I have seen wasted by some Multinational corporations, efficiency and regulation, of both wages and profit could prevent outsourcing in many cases.
But of course to put it simple, we do all gain from each other, I make profit in Europe by outsourcing engineering tasks to Asia, for later using some of the money to buy US made musky stuff, so things is not B&W.
But more power to the small entrepreneurs, especially those making musky lures!
PS. Every ideology can be abused be by those in charge of it, Capitalist and Socialist alike.
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Location: Land of the Musky | I have been to China a few times. You want to see Capitalism at its best? Go to China! Makes the USA look pathetic in terms of Capitalism. Most building cranes I have ever seen in the cities. I bet I saw well over 2000 cranes last time I went. In Minneapolis I see maybe 2-4 downtown and in Beijing at least 600-800. The United States Government has literally tied our hands to a cinder block and thrown us into the river. If you want to get upset, go email your congressmen or Senator and tell them enough is enough. I have talked with my Chinese partners about this and asked them how they get support from their government. They get 0% loans, factories are built on credit from the government, same with equipment, and local taxes on profit and employees are waved for up to and over 10 years. You know what I got? A letter the second year in business from the IRS basically calling into question why I did not make a profit and my accountant saying I am now on the "watch" list and I better turn a profit in 2 or 3 years or to expect a full visit from the IRS. I am taxed 5 times (YES 5 times!) on each $1 of profit. Some are called fees but when the check is written out to the US government its a tax. I know where my government wants me to do business because they have made it impossible for me to build a large lure comapny here in the USA and honestly it disturbs me a lot. My lures last year were made on credit with two of my partners in China for 0% interest. Took me an act of God to get my SBA loan with my bank and I have the honor of paying 8% on that loan now. Then on top of this I get to pay and extra few thousand $$$ this year to pay for peoples health insurance who simply don't want to work! Now I get to make up for that tax burden and I already work 80+ hours a week and have for 6+ year! Give me a break.
Not to harp on the lures made in the USA but ask these companies where they buy their hooks from... I bet well over half buy hooks made in China or overseas (Mustad, VMX, Owner, Gamatsu, etc.) because USA hooks are too expensive. Ask your top brand of double 10 bucktails where they get their flahshabou skirts made, I bet its a place called Haiti (not on American Soil) but they tout made in the USA and per FTC rules they are correct. I know way too much about other companies so I will not bring in brand names but you would be surprised how other lure and rod companies can keep the cost down all while not doing business in the USA and still tout "Made in the USA".
Good times ahead!
James |
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Location: Detroit River | sworrall - 2/23/2011 1:18 AM
'So, at this point I'm just curious: are you making a case for Socialism with these arguments?'
I would NEVER make a case for socialism. I just hate crap that's made in China. Unfortunately there's no way around it these days. China has been buying up all the manufacturing equipment from the companies that have been closing up in the US. If the US keeps losing its manufacturing base our national security becomes a serious issue. Manufacturing brings about innovation & I want to see that innovation happening in the US.
Most diehard trollers on St. Clair won't even look at a China bait let alone fish with it.
For now I'm stuck using my made in China Dawgs & Super D's until I get around to making my own.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Zib,
You buy 'crap'? Do you farm? |
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Location: Freedom, WI | James - I am with you on the tax thing and making a profit, it is a good thing I do it myself then it cannot be called slave labor. How about a flat tax, everybody pays the same percentage and get rid of all the loop holes? Maybe I would be able to do my own taxes then.
You do a good job at making sure the stuff you get from China is built right. All my stuff is made with components made in the USA, one exception might be one of the tails I use , I know who makes them but they have one plant in the Caribbean and am not sure if made there or the ones here. Quality is my main concern with anything I use with made in the USA a close second, but that is my choice. |
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Location: Land of the Musky | h2os2t-Agree 100% on a flat tax. 15% for anything above $20k and a sliding scale below that. Same for health care but its not up to the government to implement, its ours! If I want health insurance its a luxury and I can have it or not. I could rant for pages here... On the comment of labor cost in China, the gov in China has more than doubled wages in the last 3 years for the "middle" class. Used to be about $4k and its up to around $10k now and believe it or not there is a labor shortage in China now.
As for the "island" connection. I know who that is and I want to make a few lures with him. Would be nice to finally visit a factory on his island paradise. Take the family as my "pro" staff and fish for a few days and play on the beach...oh and visit the factory for an hour or two If and when the profits start to role in I will make a musky sized jig with him and go see how production is going in the summertime. |
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| sworrall - 2/23/2011 12:18 AM
'So, at this point I'm just curious: are you making a case for Socialism with these arguments?'
No. Capitalism. I like the concept and do my best to do well at it, and am somewhat amazed folks participate wholly without at least a rudimentary understanding of the process and how our economy actually functions within the 'world economy'.
Ok that makes more sense now. I misunderstood part of your argument.
I agree with you completely.
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Location: Detroit River | sworrall - 2/23/2011 9:07 AM
Zib,
You buy 'crap'? Do you farm?
I only buy American made "Crap" for my farming needs.
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Location: Denmark | Tackle Industries - 2/23/2011 7:24 AM
I have been to China a few times. You want to see Capitalism at its best? Go to China! Makes the USA look pathetic in terms of Capitalism. Most building cranes I have ever seen in the cities.
Good times ahead!
James
I forgot mention that China's prisons is full of human beings tortured to death for being members of the spiritual Falung gong movement, as well as thousands of people every year sentenced to death for opposing the their political leaders or stealing a bicycle. China is the most cruel regime since facist Franco here in Europe, that has been perfectly described by (US)heroes like Ernest Hemmingway, or Frank Tinker who fought fascism. If you want sources(China), just go to the website of amnesty international.
China=Capitalism at it's worst, IMO, so please US send the Chinese leadership to Guantanamo, cause they deserve it.
But let's close it here, we are off topic
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I only buy American made "Crap" for my farming needs.
Allot of that right here in this thread.
By the way, the US supports all SORTS of not-very-nice-folks out there in the world with huge weapon sales, large sums of money and more, all in an effort to protect our 'interests'...translate that to economic well being.
China's government is it's own worst enemy.
I remember in college decades ago I attended a couple summits on Sino-Soviet relations. Remember all that? Communism ain't what it used to be, and continues to morph, just like our way of life.
The US CONSUMERS are demanding goods made there, and in ever increasing volumes. Why is that? Good overall quality possible at lower prices. That's how it works. Price yourself outta a market in this world, and you are...outta the market.
China's government is it's own worst enemy. We as consumers are, to a degree, assisting in fueling that demise one Conex box at a time. it ain't fast, but it works better than bombing them back to the stone age would. that tends to pee off the population. Starve them out, and they look to the Gov't to save them. Let's take a lesson from the Japanese, and buy 'em out.
We used to be in an economic war with the USSR. We won. China has changed beyond belief over the last two decades, and continues to change. The faster the populace finds opportunity to see what reasonable comfort in life means, the faster they will demand same. Happening all over the globe, slowly. The largest enemy is religious fanaticism driven by an ever growing segment of the globes population who cannot have the comfort they see us US based softies enjoying at their country's expense; can't even get a decent job, and as a result, are easily recruited.
Not that long ago Japanese durable and consumer goods were considered cheap and of poor quality for the most part. Things change, driven as much by economics as social elements...in fact the two are connected at the hip. |
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