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| As I fish alone most of the time, it can be a challenge at times to tune in on baits to use.
I usually reduce things to a pretty simple choice on colors, going with chartreuse in green, chartreuse, orange and brass/gold/copper in stain, black and white in clear, and white/chartreuse in milky. Not a big deal to me, colors matter but you can come close most of the time without worrying too much. I always believe there is a BEST color, but don't believe you have to find it to catch fish, it can just help you catch MORE fish and get MORE hits.
What causes me to chew my lip much more than color, is bait choice. Why double 10's vs fluted blades vs single colorado 8's vs bootails vs funky chickens vs mepps #5's short or tandem? Why burts vs reef hawgs vs suicks vs gliders vs crankbaits vs something way too stupid for WI fish to bite on, like a believer? Why top raider vs tallywhacker vs Lee's Chopper vs Hi fin teaser tail vs surforenos vs hawg wobbler vs other surface baits I'd rather not publicize?
I have no angst about most of my choices under difficult water conditions, if the waves get up I am probably going bucktail or Lee's chopper, because those two choices run well and don't continually lose water contact, amd my contact, and thus(imo) fish contact. And in still water I have no qualms about going very slow or very fast, with something a little more subtle.
Of course, most of my fishing has conditions somewhere in between these extremes, and I think it is interesting how people #1 choose and #2 what they tend to do when fish show but don't go. I will put in something on this, #1 I usually start with whatever I feel is the fastest retrieve I can use in the conditions I am fishing(alright, I'm ansy) and often it will be the last bait I was successful with, and #2 if fish are following a bait and not hitting, usually after two visuals, sometimes 3, I am changing baits and going away from the follow baits. | |
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| Here's my take on lure selection:
Generally speaking, in clear to light stained water, I prefer natural colors. If it's muddy or there's a bad bloom, I'll brighten things up -- reds oranges, firetiger, etc. I like black/orange during overcast conditions, but when the sun comes out, orange goes away.
I go for the hungry ones first - fast moving lures. If I start getting follows and no eaters? I figure I've got their attention, so I don't stray too much. I might use a different color, or upsize/downsize. Might fish a little faster or slower.
If they're coming in slow and lazy, then I go with something I can run deeper and slower, something I can keep in their face longer.
Days when nothing is working: I used to go nuts changing lures until a wise old guide said "Why are you changing lures? How many fish have you caught on that bait?"
I said: "I don't know. 4? 5? At least..."
He looked at me and said "Well, if you don't want to throw it, give it to me. When these fish decide it's time to eat, that's the lure I'd want to be using..."
It makes so much sense I never thought of it. If you want to experiment, do it when the fish are showing themselves, not the other way around.
Now as for surface lures? That one is a mystery. 5 tail props, and they want THAT one. Why? | |
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | Muskies are like women. The instant you think you have then figured out, you find out you have no clue. Once you're on to something they like, try to stick with it until their mood changes. And rest assured that their mood will change. Its just a matter of time. It might take minutes, hours, or days, but their mood will change.
And like women, why one thing works better than others is often times a mystery. It is usually best not to question why, but to see what seems best at the time and go with it. And often times it doesn't matter what you do, you can't get it right. You just have to accept that sometimes the fish aren't interested.
Its just the way they are. Why? No one knows. Anyone who claims they do is just kidding themselves - or trying to sell you something. | |
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Location: Hugo, MN | I'm much more of a one lure guy now than I was when I only caught a handful of fish a year. I found baits that did what I wanted them to, and stuck with them. I don't find that color is the most important factor in getting bit. Most of the time it is a matter of keeping a bait at the right depth for cover conditions, and moving the right speed for the current activity level of the fish. Don't get me wrong, color preferences are important, but I don't think they vary too much day to day, or season to season. Bright colors when overcast, flashy metallic baits in full sun. If fish like a chartreuse bait on your lake in June, they'll likely eat it in October, too.
I do find that there are certain baitfish that muskies key in on at certain times of the year. I try to throw something that mimics that baitfish's color or profile when it's obvious what they're eating. For instance, in the late fall I see thousands of crappies schooled up in milfoil patches, and see muskies chasing them quite often. When that happens, I find it's effective to throw similar size and color baits. Gliders seem to swim very similarly to a fleeing crappie, thus are effective in those situations. I might also see carp darting around the thick milfoil, and to mimic those I will throw shallow dawgs and big tubes in browns or gold hues.
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| esoxaddict - 2/8/2011 12:13 PM
If I start getting follows and no eaters? I figure I've got their attention, so I don't stray too much. .
I have decided over time this is absolutely the wrong course. I don't get much gratification out of follows at the end of the day. I will go all the way through the A team before coming back to a follow bait. | |
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| firstsixfeet - 2/8/2011 1:17 PM
esoxaddict - 2/8/2011 12:13 PM
If I start getting follows and no eaters? I figure I've got their attention, so I don't stray too much. .
I have decided over time this is absolutely the wrong course. I don't get much gratification out of follows at the end of the day. I will go all the way through the A team before coming back to a follow bait.
I tend to think that if they're following and not eating that you're doing something right, but not right enough, if that makes sense. You've got them interested, but your lure is too big, or too small, or too fast, or too slow, or maybe even the wrong color. I'll change baits for sure, but I stick to something similar. Sometimes it's the subtle changes that make the difference.
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| esoxaddict - 2/8/2011 2:24 PM
firstsixfeet - 2/8/2011 1:17 PM
esoxaddict - 2/8/2011 12:13 PM
If I start getting follows and no eaters? I figure I've got their attention, so I don't stray too much. .
I have decided over time this is absolutely the wrong course. I don't get much gratification out of follows at the end of the day. I will go all the way through the A team before coming back to a follow bait.
I tend to think that if they're following and not eating that you're doing something right, but not right enough, if that makes sense. You've got them interested, but your lure is too big, or too small, or too fast, or too slow, or maybe even the wrong color. I'll change baits for sure, but I stick to something similar. Sometimes it's the subtle changes that make the difference.
See, as usual an optimist just doesn't have a grasp on the whole situation, and thinks his glass is half full.
My view is that if they are only following you are doing something wrong. I don't make subtle changes.
Edited by firstsixfeet 2/8/2011 3:14 PM
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| Been called a lot of things in my life, most of them unmentionable. But this is the first time I have EVER been called an optimist! | |
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Location: Bemidji, Lake Vermilion | I prefer the radical change point of view myself. Especially if I know I've gotten multiple follows in a small area, from either different or even the same fish on a bait. I have a pronounced tendency to get slow if I can, or slower than I was. I have never had great luck getting faster although I know plenty of guys who have, just doesn't seem to work for me. In my own boat I never have less than 3 rods with different baits ready to go, and sometimes more and I'm not afraid to make a quick grab for a totally different kind of bait. | |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I guess I'll agree with firstsixfeet...I guess 1 thing that always makes me go "huh?" is when a guy tells me they had 20 follows or something and not a single hit...to me that says he was doing something wrong...not right...
do you want to get follows or hits? sure follows are nice but imo it tells you a couple things....1 where the fish are...and 2 what they don't want to hit... or you're just bad at triggering them.... 
Edited by BNelson 2/8/2011 8:22 PM
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| I usually get pretty discouraged or irritated is more the word when I get lots of follows and no eaters, they obvouisly followed the bait more than once so they are more than just curious wich means yes I know where they are but I havent found what they exactly want so this is when you throw the exact opposite and quick as you can after a follow. Sometimes it might be somewhat similar like if your throwing a single prop bait and a fish explodes behind it and you get nothing you could throw a double prop back over and rip it faster | |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | BNelson - 2/8/2011 8:21 PM
I guess I'll agree with firstsixfeet...I guess 1 thing that always makes me go "huh?" is when a guy tells me they had 20 follows or something and not a single hit...to me that says he was doing something wrong...not right...
do you want to get follows or hits? sure follows are nice but imo it tells you a couple things....1 where the fish are...and 2 what they don't want to hit... or you're just bad at triggering them.... ;-)
So Brad,
How do you go about converting a bounch of SLOW following fish into eating your presentation ? (Vermilion is famous for "low and slow follows" and "small feeding windows") I've been on the end of seeing 20-25 fish in a 12 hr day with only a couple of "HOT BITERS"
Changing lures works sometimes but speed or the lack there of seems to be a bit more successful...... and of course coming back at night time hrs.
What do ya think?
Jerome | |
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Posts: 8772
| I'm not saying to just stand there blindly throwing the same lure all day when all you're getting is lookers. That's just stupid. But I still think that if you're getting follows, say on double 10's for example, that you're better off changing colors, or going to a double 8, speeding up, slowing down, etc. before you toss the 10's aside and start throwing a completely different stype of lure. Throwing back at a specific fish, that's when I'll go from blades to a topwater, or vice-versa. I have to say though, I've had very limited sucess changing up after a follow and getting that same fish to go, no matter what I've tried. I think the best bet there is just leave the fish alone for a few hours and let 'em get stupid again. | |
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| Over the years and a ton of follows later. I've taken a different approach. Instead of lure changes I've really try and pay attention to lure depth, lure speed and probably most importantly lure angle. If I'm getting a consistent follow on a bucktail that I'm running at 2' to 3'. I'll speed up to running a 1' under the surface or if its a low and slow follow I'll try a slower and lower retrieve. But the thing that has helped convert some followers into boated fish has been changing angles.
The nice thing about follows and maybe the only nice thing is the fish has given away its position. Where possible I try to change the cast angle by at least 45 degrees. I'll pull back off a spot and make my approach from a different angle being mindful of how I ran the bucktail or jerkbait on the last approach. I know the lure has done its job by attracting the fishes atttention. I'm not going to change my lure yet. That will come on the next time through the spot after giving the fish sometime to settle down and get back into a more stable frame of mind. I usually will wait 2 hours. Then its back to the original approach to the spot with a different style of bait. | |
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Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | Yeah, fishing alone you are pretty much screwed when it comes to finding out what "the" hot lure is. Trial and error is the only way and that usually takes more time than you have.
Really, I don't worry too much about it. I just change lures to find one that makes me happy, you know, one that runs at the depth I want, the speed I want and looks good doing it. I figure if I'm happy the fish are probably going to be happy too. You trust your gut feelings based on your experiences. There are always multiple patterns happening at the same time, you only need to figure out one to be a winner in the musky game. | |
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| Muskie Philosophy! I Freakin Love it! Keep it coming Fellas! Now this is how you handle the winter Blues! Great Post FSF!
BRIAN  | |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | For me it's following a few rules of thumb and a little bit of what I have confidence in throwing on the side..
On a windy day I'll assume the fish will be less aggressive near the surface or upper portion of the water column, so I'll tend to dig for them. Then again, there are those days where it just "feels right" to throw the chopper on the top when it's choppy, but there's a limit to how choppy we're talking.
As for color, I think from it matters little to the muskies preference from lake to lake, rather what sort of light/sky conditions you have versus water color. I used to try and match the hatch but have learned it isn't the difference maker. It's been said over and over again that 'feel' is the attention getter, but the calling power of visibility is a difference maker. Fish see a blur, so I think if you're going to use a two-toned color on say, a crank or jerk bait, consider what color you'll get from blending the countershades together and imagine seeing that color from below and from the side - will it blend with the sky or water ceiling/surface, or will it "pop"? You want it to pop!
I think with blades, the difference of 'feel' doesn't come so much between fluted and cupped, so much as it does from blade style - i.e. Willow or Colorado. Hammered or fluted blades are more for the "flash effect" IMO, which makes little difference to the fish as far as I believe, however, understandably others may oppose that opinion. Hell, I throw solid colored blades to match the skirt at times to create a more 'sound' silohuette or more defined profile.. Like black on black or purple on purple, red on red, etc. | |
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Location: Madtown, WI | Hey Jerome I will throw out a suggestion I have seen work for slow and lows...
If I see a slow and low quite a ways from the boat I will actually dive my rod down in the water to get the bucktail more on the fishes level. Then where I have seen sucess is when you get to the boat I do a HUGE upward and outward sweep with a LOT of speed.
I have seen slow and lows REALLY engauge with this escape move. Sometimes they engauge and you can get them to eat...some times not. Some times they just keep right on swimming under the boat.
But, the point is this: I have seen far more fish get "turned on" in a blink of an eye when you do an escape move with speed then trying to baby them into eating with slow movements.
Cory | |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | it tells me i'm either too tight to the spots or working bad angles. make a boat position change ... speed kills, try to take the bait away from the stupid fish if it doesn't want to chase it then see what the fat, lazy beeeotch does about that.
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Location: Contrarian Island | Jerome,
Vermilion is a different nut to crack during the day... so not sure my advice will help but I have seen a couple things work.
if I am getting slow and low follows on a bait that is a straight retrieve like a bucktail I switch to something I can work erratically with pauses and something that gets deeper than the bait that was getting follows. (a wise Mud Duck once told me if they won't come up you gotta go down to get em)
Cory speaks of fish on Eagle being triggered at the boat which might not translate too well to the ski's on Vermilion.
sometimes slow and low follows simply are not going to eat until something changes and the feeding bell goes off but imo simply throwing the same lure only to get more follows is not the best option...I want to make sure I throw things I think will trigger a strike, not a follow....switching to an erratic bait or going to one end of the speed spectrum is a better option...
Edited by BNelson 2/9/2011 9:44 AM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | BNelson - 2/9/2011 9:16 AM
I switch to something I can work erratically with pauses and something that gets deeper than the bait that was getting follows.
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a phriggin glider smellie? | |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I love gliders! ;o) no was thinking more along the lines of dawgs and cranks like a triple d or grandma...
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| Hunter4 - 2/9/2011 12:28 AM
The nice thing about follows and maybe the only nice thing is the fish has given away its position.
Not disputing your technique of possibly changing depth or angle, but after considering follows over a number of years, I have come to the conclusiong that a follow on water I know is not that good a deal.
I already knew where the fish was, it isn't a surprise. It is a bad thing because I have pulled the fish off his favored spot and brought him out to see the boat. If you fish where I fish, this is often something fish seem to find VERY UPSETTING. If the fish seems hot, I will try and re encounter it with the same bait fairly quickly. If the fish seems upset to see the boat, I usually figure I'm screwed.
When I posted I was thinking more in terms of a follow here, and another follow there rather than dealing with an individual fish. My bait switch that I am talking about is coming after a follow here and another follow there, and PROMPTLY after another follow over there.
Follows are useful things when on a new water or a new spot. They tell you that you've found the ballpark, but, they're still follows. | |
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Sometimes it's a matter of strike zone, how close a lure needs to be to a ski and how long a lure needs to be in it before a fish will commit.
In other words, on low and slow follows get a bait in front of them that they don't have to chase very far to eat. Then play with speed and action.
JS
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Location: Madtown, WI | I like Brads adds....I agree if your getting follow after follow I would go with his approach. What I suggested has worked on eagle...as well as other places.....never fished V....and I have heard its a tough nut during the day..
If you keep getting follows and no converters...I too like the change ups...
if they aren't eating...a trip is the only way...out fom the boat liek Nelie suggests, or at the boat with speed.
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Location: Warroad, Mn | Never could understand why folks wanted to use lures that they considered "search" lures. I never really wanted to locate fish as I all ready know where there where lots of them. I mostly wanted to catch them. However, different fish do different things. Not all fish are catchable regardless what you use. I suspect a lot depends on how long it's been since the fish ate last. Not all fish feed at the same time, there's always some fish available. Some times this works and some times that works. I generally go small and fast, big and medium, or twitchy and slow. They all work at times. Doug Johnson | |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | dougj - 2/9/2011 8:10 PM
Never could understand why folks wanted to use lures that they considered "search" lures. I never really wanted to locate fish as I all ready know where there where lots of them. I mostly wanted to catch them. However, different fish do different things. Not all fish are catchable regardless what you use. I suspect a lot depends on how long it's been since the fish ate last. Not all fish feed at the same time, there's always some fish available. Some times this works and some times that works. I generally go small and fast, big and medium, or twitchy and slow. They all work at times. Doug Johnson
Now thats whats i'm talking about !! I love WISDOM ! Way to keep it simple Mr. Johnson.
Stupid fish !!
Edited by Top H2O 2/9/2011 9:53 PM
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| Perhaps my approach is skewed. At this point in my fishing I know how I like to catch em. Topwater and quick strike rigs. I start with that. Then I choose body of water, time of year, etc around that in planning the year. No action on top?...toss out the suckers, too. slow down. No go..I didn't plan correctly. Last resort catch some small pike or pans and use as alternate live baits. No luck..have a brew and do better research next time. Your priorities may be very different..a tournament guy cannot use my approach for most tourneys if they want to be in the money. key is knowing what fun/success in musky fishing means to you and your group...start with that. | |
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| "When I posted I was thinking more in terms of a follow here, and another follow there rather than dealing with an individual fish. My bait switch that I am talking about is coming after a follow here and another follow there, and PROMPTLY after another follow over there." Firstsixfeet.
I understood that. My point was you know the lure you're thowing is prompting the fish's attention. Before switching baits I consider a few other things before changing up a lure that I know is at least peaking their interest. Hey, there are a ton of folks on this site that know way more than I about these creatures. I was just trying to answer your question with some of the things that have worked for me. Sorry about that.
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Very confusing.. I thought this was about Lake "X" and why bait "A" would work over bait "B"... Lure color options, how they vary pending the body of water you're on and something about fluted vs non-fluted blades. | |
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| Sam Ubl - 2/10/2011 8:38 AM
Very confusing.. I thought this was about Lake "X" and why bait "A" would work over bait "B"... Lure color options, how they vary pending the body of water you're on and something about fluted vs non-fluted blades.
Not that difficult, people honed in on this paragraph and that is where the discussion went, with most considering point #2,
"Of course, most of my fishing has conditions somewhere in between these extremes, and I think it is interesting how people #1 choose and #2 what they tend to do when fish show but don't go. I will put in something on this, #1 I usually start with whatever I feel is the fastest retrieve I can use in the conditions I am fishing(alright, I'm ansy) and often it will be the last bait I was successful with, and #2 if fish are following a bait and not hitting, usually after two visuals, sometimes 3, I am changing baits and going away from the follow baits."And here's something else to chew on, as far as #1 what I choose to start with, it is never a glide bait, because over time, I have recognized that glide baits are follow baits | |
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| FSF... Glide baits are "follow baits" for two reasons, BOTH of which took me years to figure out:
1. People tend to use them in the wrong conditions. I did this for the better part of two seasons -- mid summer, water temps in the 70's, follow after follow after follow... Of course! A slow moving bait may get their attention, they may look at it, but thw whole food chain is active. Burning a bucktail or ripping a Depth Raider, sure. Walk the dog lures, tail props, sure. But those fish are actively chasing baits, and eating them when you make it look like it's getting away.
For me, at least? A glider is for late fall cold water conditions, when fish just aren't moving a whole lot, and you want to put something in their face that will get their attention, and hang there long enough for them to commit. Now... They don't typically hook well, which has cost me several fish. But there are certain times where gliders are what they want. Those times just aren't when most of us do most of our fishing.
2. People don't work them right. That nice rythmic side-to-side cadence? WORTHLESS. Well,okay - if you want to SEE a fish, that's fantastic, but it does NOTHING that is going to get them to come unglued. If they wanted it, they'd have eaten it long before you saw them. Continuing that slow side to side glide? You're going to get the same thing at the end of your cast that you did at the beginning. A follow.
I actually believed the "gliders don't catch fish" nonsense for a while, but that's just not true. It's a tool. And in the hands of someone who knows how and when to use it, it can be very effective. But if you're not using gliders during the right conditions and the right time, and working them in a way that actually makes fish want them?? Well... Again, it's a tool. You're pounding nails with a screwdriver.
The only thing that I really haven't figured out with gliders is what to do besides bigger hooks and t-ing your hooks to keep the fish pinned on them.
Now... There are other lures, like a DDD for example, that you can crank down and work pretty slow, giving it a few taps and jerks that will work in those conditions as well. In that case? Well, DDDs are more like vice grips. You can use them for what they were designed for, but if you need to pound a nail, or you're too lazy to go get the right sized wrench? They'll get the job done. | |
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| Glide baits are follow baits, eh? Lol. I'll gladly take all of your gliders off your hands if you have such disdain for them! | |
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| Its interesting which posters go on and on about glide baits. I'm in favor of everyone else using them all the time. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm not. I do pretty well on them. | |
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| I doubt you'll find those guides around here, guest. They charge $350 - $400/day for that knowledge. Why would they give it away for free to jerks like you?
Now that I think about it? Well, why should I give any information away, either? 7 years, 100 or so guide dates, $350 - $400 a pop. Seminars, club meetings, books, magazines, tournaments... I paid a good chunk of change for everything I've learned, and an even bigger chunk of time. Helping other people, who might not have the time or the money to go hire the best guides? Hmph. Seems kind of stupid now that you mention it! Ah, you know what? Screw 'em all. Youself included. You want to know anything about muskie fishing? Shell out the $400 yourself and hire a guide.
Edited by esoxaddict 2/11/2011 6:24 PM
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Funny thing but , ah, Ya know those big ol Pounders..... well when you pull on them ,....they kinda,.... dare I say it ......GLIDE....... thru the water.
Caught a bunch of fish on hellhounds,phantoms, perka's during tournaments last year..... But your probably right...... They Suck !
Only double 10's catch fish these days.
Jerome | |
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| Top H2O - 2/11/2011 6:33 PM
Funny thing but , ah, Ya know those big ol Pounders..... well when you pull on them ,....they kinda,.... dare I say it ......GLIDE....... thru the water.
Caught a bunch of fish on hellhounds,phantoms, perka's during tournaments last year..... But your probably right...... They Suck !
Only double 10's catch fish these days.
Jerome
That is so great! Keep throwing those buggers, and while your at it, cut the tails off those pounders so they don't give off any excess vibration, and glide even better. | |
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Lake X, but why bait A instead of bait B??