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Posts: 2361
| How many fish contacts do you feel a good idiot caster(second fisherman), can add to your boat total for the day?
DougJ says, the first guy catches 50% the fish, the second guy catches 50%, and the third guy catches about 10% of the fish.(Yeah, that's what he says, and he is a LOT better at math than most of us.)
I fish almost entirely by myself most of my trips, but I don't really prefer to do it, since I have learned that even with my good positioning, casting and approaches, there are an amazing number of fish that DON'T respond to my offerings. Either the fish ARE that stupid, or I AM MISSING THAT MANY on the first pass through. My guess is that a second fisherman who can cast well and work their baits decently, probably nearly doubles the boat total over time. At worst, increases it by 80%.
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Posts: 553
Location: 15 miles east of Lake Kinkaid | It makes a huge difference patterning fish. I always try and invite someone out if I do not have a good pattern going. This spring I had a buddy throwing the same bait as I was (who had maybe taken 10 casts with a musky rod, EVER) and behind me hooked a high 30's. I had taken 3 casts to the exact spot where the fish came from. In this case that fish wanted a black (not the color I had on at the time, white) bucktail. Many other times I can remember giving a friend and bait and we figured out a pattern from fish responding to what he/she was throwing. When I fish by myself and go through an area where I know there are fish....I often go down back and then down a third time. You would be surprised how often a fish shows itself or eats the 2nd or 3rd time down the same spot. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The second and third angler(given that thier skill set equals that of the first) can be all the action some days, and some almost none. Much depends on how well the fish are triggering, and what the structural elements and approach to/through them might be. Alot also depends on covering 'all the water'. I fish WAY slower as far as moving the boat along than most, and sort of vacuum the opportunities out if there are any at that exact time under those conditions.
About a thousand variables, as usual. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | I don't see boat position as being a major factor. Sure some days the 1st bait through gets 95% or even all of the action, but more days than not, boat position means nothing. |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | Yeah, what MikeHulbert said. The only change I make when fishing 2nd/3rd vs. 1st water is I pay a little more attention to where my casts are landing. Also, you're allowed to cast over the 1st/2nd if they aren't making the casts... especially on rocks. That said, I put the "idiot casters" in front and cast from the back. |
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Posts: 485
Location: On my favorite lake! | I would guess 60/40 if you are fishing fast and 70/30 if you are fishing slower. No doubt the first guy through has a higher percentage but the back guy can too fish out of the other side of the boat and get first pass at those fish. Great for suspended fish. |
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| "Boat position means nothing" Are you serious? |
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Posts: 580
| On some days and on some lakes, it makes all the difference...and it seems to be the case for specific-target-casting situations. If you are fishing a huge piece of midlake structure, a large weedflat, or fishing baitfish schools out suspended over deeper water, I don't think position is as important and having an extra caster in the boat can significantly increase the number of fish contacted.
But fishing shoreline with specific casting targets (small weed patches, individual boulders, deadfalls, etc.), the first cast to the target will usually get the attention of any active fish....which is why, in those circumstances, in my boat the guy with front position will be throwing a high percentage hooking bait such as a bucktail, while the second bait through will use something to potentially trigger a more neutral fish (jerkbait, twitchbait) that doesn't want to chase a bucktail, but might react to an erratic presentation. Still, in casting shoreline-type-structure, the front position typically outfishes the back position by about 70/30 split.
If I'm solo, I always start off throwing my highest % hooking bait, like a bucktail and hope to cover water and find an active fish...and I don't worry too much about missing out on some of the more neutral fish. I think an active muskie will generally find it's way to your bait regardless of whether you've happened to cast to its location exactly. But if I've got nothing going on blades, I'll definitely slow down and try to trigger fish by working slowly and often making multiple casts to prime spots with a slower presentation that incorporates erractic movements and pauses. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | 2T Critter,
No not really, whoever is casting from the front, the middle or the back.....after a few thousand days on the water, I can honestly say that it doesn't matter if you fish first, second, third....I see it on a weekly basis, many times on a daily basis. |
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When I am fishing in the cleanup spot I try to not only cover different water, you don't see it much but a different speed of retrieve with the same bait can make all the difference. I of course try different things but inevitably a slower retrieve seems to be the best percentage over the same water in the 3 hole.
Hard to beat a jig and reaper when everything else in front of fails. |
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Posts: 431
| I would much rather have 2 baits working than 1 bait. Whether or not 2nd/3rd guy is seeing fish depends on a lot of things. I totally agree with the comment about most active bait going through first. Adding somebody just for the sake of adding a body doesn't do much. However, working as a team increases everybody's chances. I fish with my dad 90% of the time and I'm fishing out of the front 98% of the time.. If I have a hot bait I'll hand it off to my dad to use and try something new. |
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| MIke,
When you say boat position do you mean where you are in the boat or where the boat is on a body of water? |
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Posts: 444
| Mike means where you are in the boat.
I'm always the second or third idiot because i dont own a boat. I would say our numbers are pretty equal, with number one maybe getting an extra fish here and there. Maybe. |
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| There is a point of diminishing return when it comes to adding a caster in the clean-up spot IMHO, a third caster does not add 33% to the boat total.
I've logged thousands of hours of casting as well (normally with my equal) and (for typical structure fishing) absolutely the best formula has been to have the guy in front take the best angle and shot at it and let the guy in the back pick up the scraps. Sounds cold? When the guy in the front gets a fish, simply switch positions. This has always been our most productive procedure for casting structure.
I am a big proponent of first lure through, but of course we have also seen times when the guy in the back stumbles into something very productive, rarely though it's because "we think" it has to do with the color of the same type of bait.
I don't see how it can be argued that if both fishermen are equal and using the same bait it makes no difference if you're in the one or two hole IF you are effectively fishing the structure as described. if you are holding the boat away from structure and the second or third lure through is not overlapping, that's basically the first lure through in my mind.
I think a fair comparison can be made to trolling with multiple lines, trolling 6 lines versus 4 lines does not increase your chances by a third unless his open water trolling with a good spread. Sorry Mike, guides typically position the boat optimally so everyone has an equal shot so your input may be slightly off-base.
I would be very interested in hearing what you guys who fish tournaments have found when you find a hot pattern and are both using the same presentation regarding the first lure through. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | if you read my post, I simply stated it doesn't matter where you STAND in the boat...1st person, middle person, 3rd person....I spoke NOTHING of boat position, but a persons position IN THE BOAT. Wow.... |
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Posts: 253
Location: On the water | I fish with my son-in-law and I'm always in the back of the boat (my choice).
The last few years I have caught more fish than him.
What does that tell you, I don't know but I'm alot happier.
Good Luck, Tom |
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| If you are fishing behind a good fisherman who is in the front of the boat, many times they will mop up most of the fish. I have seen it many, many times when I'm in the back of the boat. Yeah if you have rookie fisherman up front, you will probably catch more than they will out of the back of the boat. Ratio is pretty lopsided in my experience.
Edited by Baby Mallard 10/21/2010 11:17 AM
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Posts: 8781
| If I'm in the front, I make sure not to pick everything apart. I'll throw out at a 45 degree angle and purposely leave some fresh water for whoever is in the back, so I'd say it's about even. Now... if whoever is in back misses the nice little pocket, inside turn, deadfall, etc that I intentionally left for them? Well, I've been known to cast back there and pull a fish out of somewhere we just went through. I try not to do that, though, because then everyone yells at me. Hey, I left it for 'ya, and YOU didn't hit it! If I didn't cast back there and catch that fish, NOBODY would have caught it! I'm real fun to fish with, LOL!  |
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| WOW, that is exactly what I was talking about Mike. If you're guiding it probably doesn't make as much of a difference because you are trying to get equal opportunity to each of your paying customers. Even so, there should still be a noticeable difference like what Mallard said (he is a guide too). Even while guiding there should still be different results regarding the first versus third caster through.
When you crawl right on top of the structure (typically weeds) with the front guy basically parallel fishing and grabbing every opportunity in front of the boat there has been no comparison between the front and back guy.
Like I said, this was far and away the best most productive way we found to cover water. It could be argued that you're ruining the water for the guy behind but we we eventually settled on the realization that the guy in front more than made up for any perceived difference the back guy could make up for.
Like anything, there are a million variables. The method I have described is basically for dirty water applications of short type "pitching" versus long type "casting". We still used this method while fishing clear water (with longer casts) with equal success, but fishing reefs and isolated structure (especially on clear water) obviously required a more conventional strategy.
Perhaps another point of reference would be how many of the Bass Masters events are won with guys "pitching" lures versus guys casting. Obviously they both have a place but just as obviously your position in the boat for pitching would make a huge difference. Why would it be any different for Muskie's? Could you possibly envision somebody pitching to the same spot (even with a different colored bait LOL) and having equal results?
If you're fishing structure optimally as I described, the first lure through will get over 90% of the action. If you're hanging off structure where each cast by the third guys is basically hitting fresh water, I consider that the first lure through. that's probably why Steve fishes so slowly?
I also think that most of each cast is wasted over nonproductive water when you're not basically right on top of the structure. I'm confident that most people reading this have fished by themselves and set up right on top of the structure and basically fish in front of the boat because there's nobody else to be concerned with behind them. If you're not doing that, you are not fishing very competently in my opinion anyway.
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| One last thing, just so everyone is clear on this. Getting right on top of structure is something we consciously use to do as a team. We are (actually were) both equally talented at running the boat and of course jumped at the opportunity to get up front.
Our 40" minimum before switching should tell you something, many times I can remember pulling the lower away from smaller fish and then also hoping the fish was only 39". It was a lot of fun, even for a sissy. LOL dude!
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Location: Contrarian Island | for me over the last 4 or 5 yrs averaging 140 fish in per season the guy in front usually gets 60% of the fish in net, and the guy in back 40%. usually the guys w/ me are pretty good anglers..we work as a team, usually mixing up lures/presentations/depths until we figure out "what they want"....now, I also leave them fresh water, some guys move at a crawl pace and in that scenario the guy in front will get a lot more....to answer the original question having 2 in your boat will definitely put more fish in the boat over the course of the season vs. 1 person...that isn't even debatable.
the ratio could come down to how fast or slow one runs the boat...ie, more or less fresh water for the guy in back....guides, well they often times are fishing w/ very inexperienced fisherman..so if Hulbert see's no difference his numbers are a little different than 2 above avg anglers in the boat..
Edited by BNelson 10/21/2010 12:30 PM
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| Just one question...why the feeling by some to debate every point raised? A simple question was asked, a simple opinion was given....isn't that what forums are for? Attacking a post because you feel differently is only going to deter people from posting. I think evryone likes to see posts from new anglers, experienced anglers, guides, tournament anglers... provides a great source of view points...don't chase people away... |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | There is a HUGE difference fishing behind a "well skilled Vaccum" or a beginner....If worrall fishes that slow and picks up all the good spots...then I rather fish in front of him 
But I have also caught a lot of fish being in the back of the boat....like Brad said....if you work together and the guy in front is leaving water...AND...the guy in back is LOOKING where he is leaving water..then it works out fine...its when either the guy in the front isn't leaving anything...or the guy in the back ignores the fresh water and casts to the exact same spot that the effectiveness overall drops.
Cory
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Location: Contrarian Island | great point...one many anglers (even some who catch a lot of fish) don't pay attention to...when I'm running the boat from the back or in the back I watch every cast the guy in front of me makes so I don't cast to the exact same spot....I even watch the guy in the back of the boat as if he misses an inside turn or key spot I point out to him where to cast next....paying close attention to all those details adds up to more fish in the boat.... I don't think even the best angler could ever get 90% of the action over the course of a season (on any given day yes) if the guy behind him is equally as skilled..if he did that would say to me he is basically leaving nothing for the guy in back to cast to
Edited by BNelson 10/21/2010 12:54 PM
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The first lure through may get 90% of the action if you are fishing with no regards to your partner. It's called being a fish pig.
Read BN's post, fishing as a "team", or at least fishing in a way that allows your rear dude to have action is something you have to be cognitive of.
If the front man WANTS to get all the action all he has to do is go slow and not leave any opportunity for his homey, those kind of guys usually end up fishing alone though.
JS
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Posts: 540
Location: MN | I'm pretty sure the word forum is French for bicker. |
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| I think that's an excellent point (and explanation) on boat speed, that's why I said something about how Steve said he moved the boat more slowly. Of course, maybe it's just because Steve is moving more slowly these days too?
I think the point could be argued that the faster you move the boat, the less relevant position in boat becomes, angler talent being equal. I agree that adding an extra fishermen is going to increase the over-all amount of fish in the boat too...provided they don't get in the way too much:).
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| "The first lure through may get 90% of the action if you are fishing with no regards to your partner. It's called being a fish pig." Dude, I agree on the fish pig deal, we've all been there but you completely missed my point about switching positions after catching a fish from the front of the boat.
All I was saying was that for us (working as a team) it was more productive at the end of the day if the first guy vacuumed pitched (I'm talking 20-30' max). Obviously there is some regard given to the guy in the back, but our overall fish catching average was increased when the guy in the front took the most productive spots and angles.
I see very few muskie anglers pitching muskie lures like they do for bass and it's probably been my most productive non-trolling pattern. You can always get the perfect angle and stealth to pitch from the front of the boat (hence the need to be a hog), obviously the guy in the back watches for opportunities and generally makes longer casts with this method.
Not only that, I can't begin to tell you how many times I have dropped the premier spot on spot to someone new in my boat only to watch them decide it was a good time to switch lures or something. We've all been there too? |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | I always try to get my fishing partners some action. If they are casting to one side of the boat, I cast to the other. If we are casting to the same side of the boat, I will put on a different lure. If there is a good spot on the spot, I will give them first cast to it. I have a lot more fun when my fishing partners catch fish than when I do - especially if it is their first or personal best fish.
Go fishing. Have fun.
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Posts: 2361
| Guest - 10/21/2010 12:53 PM
The first lure through may get 90% of the action if you are fishing with no regards to your partner. It's called being a fish pig.
Read BN's post, fishing as a "team", or at least fishing in a way that allows your rear dude to have action is something you have to be cognitive of.
If the front man WANTS to get all the action all he has to do is go slow and not leave any opportunity for his homey, those kind of guys usually end up fishing alone though.
JS
Doesn't work that way even if he "WANTS" to get all the action. I frequently fish small covers, where the fish zone is often within a 10x10 area, and I fish it with the express goal of catching the fish, and it just isn't doable on a regular basis. For some reason, not all fish are vulnerable to a single presentation. I can't even get close to 90% of the fish, fishing in front of myself. Too often, I pick up another rod, with another bait on it, and fish the cover again and find a fish still there, and more than occasionally, pick up a third rod with a third bait on it, and find a doggone fish is STILL sitting there.
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Posts: 305
| In response to arguments breaking out on forums as occured here...as long as they are civil, these turn out to be threads i learn the most from. Listen to the views expressed and maybe toss in yours...all benefit. |
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| I think a lot depends on the body of water and conditions. What your saying 6' could very well be true for that particular body of water. However, I've seen plenty of times when the first lure gets virtually all the fish and there are almost no scraps, even with a jig. Typically this is when the fish are really snapping or some other extreme deal.
It was a bit of an unusual set of circumstances that got us started "pitching and switching". Basically we found a very remote post-spawn absolutely giant weed deal loaded with lots of big fish and no fishing pressure, obviously a dream situation and why they were able to get big. In short, when we found a thick green clumpy weed pile the first accurate cast inside it (with almost any lure) was far and away the best percentage. And that's where the "pitching" came in, you absolutely did not want to get fouled on that first cast so the best percentage was to almost sneak up on it, throw just past it with a large blade and weave your way through.
I can remember one time we were working through an area with beautiful isolated coon tail clumps and I noticing I missed one of them well behind the boat. My boat partner had just caught one so he was in the back, but on the wrong side. I pointed to it, he switched sides, made one cast and got his first 50"er of the day. He ended up with 2-50s" and 10 total that day, his nine others were from the front of the boat, first lure through.
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'How many fish contacts do you feel a good idiot caster(second fisherman), can add to your boat total for the day? '
Seems some folks missed the original question.
I fish slowly so we ( the boat) can cover the water with multiple presentation styles and from several different angles...why? because I'm sure the fish are there or I wouldn't be, most of the time. What BN, Cory, and others are describing as 'teamwork' is the same thing, but dependent on the 'team leader'; the person positioning the boat. EA had an excellent point, too...watch each cast, don't place the same deal in the same place. More importantly, slowing down allows everyone in the boat to present the lure properly and with precision and work it all the way back to the boat instead of ending up with the last half of the cast trailing in the electric's prop wash. Sometimes I fish a 30'X30' spot 5 times from every angle, and right through the middle. Ask Sorno.
I submit that the second guy can add quite a few. So can the third. I think that's what Mike is trying to say. |
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Posts: 2361
| Guest - 10/21/2010 3:06 PM
I think a lot depends on the body of water and conditions. What your saying 6' could very well be true for that particular body of water. However, I've seen plenty of times when the first lure gets virtually all the fish and there are almost no scraps, even with a jig. Typically this is when the fish are really snapping or some other extreme deal.
It was a bit of an unusual set of circumstances that got us started "pitching and switching". Basically we found a very remote post-spawn absolutely giant weed deal loaded with lots of big fish and no fishing pressure, obviously a dream situation and why they were able to get big. In short, when we found a thick green clumpy weed pile the first accurate cast inside it (with almost any lure) was far and away the best percentage. And that's where the "pitching" came in, you absolutely did not want to get fouled on that first cast so the best percentage was to almost sneak up on it, throw just past it with a large blade and weave your way through.
I can remember one time we were working through an area with beautiful isolated coon tail clumps and I noticing I missed one of them well behind the boat. My boat partner had just caught one so he was in the back, but on the wrong side. I pointed to it, he switched sides, made one cast and got his first 50"er of the day. He ended up with 2-50s" and 10 total that day, his nine others were from the front of the boat, first lure through.
Yes, I like many, put a lot of credence in guest posts, thanks for sharing. You guys must be, and in fact are, unbelievable fisherman. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | In this case, the Guest is qualified and certainly has seen that sort of success. Remember, we don't require registration to post here, and many times critical information is passed along that otherwise would not be. |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | One of the fun ways to fish as a team is when the fish are really moving ontails and aggressive and we put the trolling motor pretty high and time the casts so we are leap flogging going along pretty darn quickly...but covering water very effectively. If you have the trolling motor set right you van really cover water and cover it fast and well, given the conditions. |
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| I do enjoy fishing with people, but really do embrace fishing alone as well. I do things different than the current trend of big baits and saltwater equipment. I enjoy a more subtle approach and think fishing alone allows that. I do quite a bit of sight fishing and also working specific pieces of structure. I do not get as many follows and the such, but my catch rate is still good. I do more with a fly out west, and they tigers, but also creatures when I am back east works as well. Also your typical suick or weagles get the same methodical approach. I just enjoy it more this way....BR |
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Posts: 158
| It's funny I just came across this post.
2 nights ago my friend and I worked a weedline...on the way down the first pass I switched between blades and a soft plastic, buddy in the back working his new wades wobbler that he just won. Turned around to start back down the same weedline and I switched up my soft plastic to a different color and he put on blades. About his 5th cast with blades he stuck a 44....that fish had most likely already seen 4 different baits and the back of the boat got the only fish for the night.
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| Hi Steve, I forgot you knew this IP code…
Ben, I think I like the casting part better by myself sometimes too (not so much trolling though). I decided that I definitely prefer the catching part better either way with somebody else though after putting the two biggest fish of my life in the boat (while fishing alone) in early September (both were #35+ class). Both were new exciting experiences for me, but even so, I think I would have better enjoyed the experience with somebody else on board. Not only that, I got extremely lucky with one of them because I absolutely blew the net-job ?. She absolutely humiliated me at the boat!
I bring this up because having somebody else on board definitely increases your chances of a successful net job. On the flip side, one of those fish was caught in a completely new area that I was just checking out because I was fishing alone. How do you add/subtract things like this while assessing how many fish a extra caster will add to your boat total for the day? Heck, another thought would be to count the collective fish the boat gets after the extra caster discovers something that you would not have been doing otherwise. This has happened many times in my boat through the years and I would add all fish caught with the method discovered by the extra caster to the “extra” total.
I would have to say (guessing) a second caster has added about 30-35% to my boat total overall casting threw the years all things considered, just way too many variables to put a percentage total for a single day. Long term…it's pretty obvious an extra caster would certainly have to be beneficial though. To me, musky fishing is a lot like poker in that there is a lot of luck if you look at things only in the short-term. Unfortunately, no matter how good you are at either, a lot of times luck will determine your fate more than skill short term.
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Posts: 897
| I outfished a buddy of mine two summers ago 16 to 1 in his boat with him up front. He runs the boat slow and is a good stick...I just made the right lure choices that summer. Lots of times that year where he'd put down a lure, I'd pick it up and put it on my line and catch a fish behind him! Other times I'd be trying oddball stuff when the "normal" stuff wasn't working and that would get the fish. The following summer we fished out of both our boats when we were fishing together and it was almost an even split between front and back of the boat.
Lots of factors play into this question, but I don't there is that much of an advantage being up front unless the fish are super aggressive and the guy up front is moving the boat along at a slow speed. |
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | Since FSF mentioned my name I thought I'd throw my .02 cents in. First another (or two) fisherman in the boat will definitely add to the total catch in the boat. If you are fishing fairly dark water, with somewhat heavy cover the second or even third cast to the very same area is many times the best cast. What I suspect is that the fish are reacting to the commotion that is created by casting. On the first cast the fish is some feet away and facing the other direction. The lure hits the water and creates sound. the fish is alerted that something is happening and turns and starts to swim toward the sound. The second cast hits the water and now the fish is in the area and sees the lure and strikes. This sometimes makes it look like the fish are selective for a certain lure, but it's probably because the fish is moving toward the area. Same can be said for the third lure through. Fish aren't stationary objects, but react to stimulas and move towards what they think is food. Even a short period of time can change their location greatly. I'm also sure that at times a certain lure type will trigger a fish to bits. Sometimes size or speed seems important. Then casting position in the boat isn't as important as fishing skill. If you are a good caster that can read the water well and cast well you can do well from the back of the boat, even with three folks fishing. I've guided for many-many years and find that good fishermen regardless where they are positioned in the boat can catch fish. I've also had a good number of folks who couldn't catch a fish if you handed them a stick of dynamite regardless where they where in the boat. Just to add to the question some. Here's what happened just a few days ago. I had three folks in the boat and we're trolling. We caught three nice muskies (40,45,49) all on the middle rod, which I wouldn't have out if there weren't three folks fishing. Would I have caught any fish if I didn't have the third rod out? I'm sure FSF will know! Doug Johnson
Edited by dougj 10/23/2010 5:55 PM
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adding idiot casters?