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Posts: 623
Location: Bloomington, MN | This is from the 2010 WDNR Fishing Regulations
“Position fishing”
is fishing from a boat where the fishing line extends vertically into the water
while the boat is maneuvered (forwards or backwards) by a motor used to position or
maintain the position of the boat over underwater structure. Position fishing is allowed
statewide in all waters.
Thought I would bring it up since I'm going to be doing this for the first time in 20 years next weekend, and this seems to always be a topic at this time of year. I take it that if I'm drifting with the wind and using a trolling motor to keep the boat on a breakline and the suckers are under a float I should be legal. Any thoughts would be appreciated. | |
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| I talked to a local warden in the Rhinelandere area this weekend and asked the same question, his response was that if you are drifting with the wind and using the trolling motor to kick the boat back on the edge of structure he would not ticket you for trolling, if you are using your trolling motor and just going around the lake and going against the wind then you would be trolling and he would ticket you.
Dan M | |
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Posts: 8788
| It's all up to the discretion of the warden. If what you are doing gives the warden the impression you are deliberately trying to circumvent the trolling ban? You're getting a ticket. I had a warden explain it this way:
"If you're running the trolling motor wide open on a calm day and your suckers are trailing along behind the boat? You're trolling. If the wind is blowing you across the lake? You're drifting, which is legal." | |
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Posts: 20227
Location: oswego, il | I had a warden in vilas tell me if you have a sucker in the water and your trolling motor is on for any reason, your getting a ticket.
The rule needs to be defined. You can have your trolling motor on constant with a sucker in the water in kenosha county and not worry about a ticket. | |
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| I was out on the water Sunday and in returning to my cottage, I saw three folks in a boat dragging suckers on two rods, moving right along using the troller motor continually. They were also casting, but I think from what I read in the other posts that they might have been in trouble if a warden had seen it. | |
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Posts: 580
| ToddM - 10/4/2010 7:17 PM
I had a warden in vilas tell me if you have a sucker in the water and your trolling motor is on for any reason, your getting a ticket.
I kind of hope I cross paths with this warden just for the sake of contesting this ridiculous interpretation of ridiculously vague and ambiguously-written regulation...
To respond to the original question, the way that I read the reg is that there is one key part to the definition: line has to be vertical into the water. The rest of the definition can be interpreted in multiple ways and could be used to describe either trolling or "position fishing" depending upon how you read it. But if your line is vertical, you can't be trolling, so that's what I think is most important.
Fact is, you can be "positioning" the boat with the aid of the trolling motor, and you can be casting as well. In order to "position" or "maneuver" the boat, it is a given that you will have to be in forward motion. So why isn't it "trolling" when the boat is in forward motion? Or, what truly differentiates "trolling" from "position fishing"? Again, my interpretation is that it's the verticality of the line into the water. Forward motion with trailing line/bait behind the boat: trolling.
Physically, it is nearly impossible for a boat to be in motion while your line is perfectly vertical. But as long as the line is vertical the majority of the time, and the boat is being moved forward in short bursts (rather than in an uninterrupted pattern), I think it's "position fishing" rather than trolling. | |
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| this is the dumbest thing i have ever read. there is a HUGE difference between trolling and moving around a lake with the trolling motor and dragging suckers. youre telling me you will get ticketed for doing this up north? tell me how this is not ignorant. | |
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| what i meant was using the trolling motor while you cast AND drag suckers. | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That's an easy one. No trolling allowed up here, so you can't drag suckers around the lake...that's trolling. Drift and position the boat, you won't get a ticket. Drag the suckers around the lake, you will. | |
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Posts: 383
Location: SE Wisc and Vilas County | just keep your suckers vertical and you will be fine, no need to have them way behind the boat. | |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I agree w/ Matt, I keep my suckers vertical and have yet to come across a warden..it's a dumb rule that is written poorly, huge difference between using your motor to position your boat and cast to structure with suckers straight down and flat out trolling...big difference...I'll keep doing it the way I've done it up there for the last 15 yrs and will hire Matt as my attorney should I get a ticket! 
Edited by BNelson 10/6/2010 9:47 PM
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Posts: 20227
Location: oswego, il | The vertical thing is crazy too. The wind moves the boat and I am "positioning" with my trolling motor and my lines are not not vertical. Not legal but if I say add another 2 oz of lead so that doesn't happen, then I am legal? You could ask a dozen questions about where "positioning" ends and "trolling" begins and it's completely discretionary and totally undefined. | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | We go through this every fall.
It's intent, basically, the warden will look to as far as interpretation goes. If you are obviously pulling your suckers around you will get a ticket. If a warden gives you a ticket and you are NOT pulling your suckers around and are actually controlled drift position fishing, you will win in court. Precedent has already been set.
As far as I can tell, no one has ever posted here about actually getting a ticket for position fishing with suckers. | |
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Posts: 614
Location: Michigan | Clark A - 10/4/2010 9:26 AM
This is from the 2010 WDNR Fishing Regulations
“Position fishing”
is fishing from a boat where the fishing line extends vertically into the water
while the boat is maneuvered (forwards or backwards) by a motor used to position or
maintain the position of the boat over underwater structure. Position fishing is allowed
statewide in all waters.
Sounds like the rule is perfectly made for walleye fishermen who are vertically jigging and use the motor to stay right on top of a sunken hump. Definitely needs some clarification for the musky guys. I am just glad I fish in Michigan and don't need to worry about any of that. | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It isn't complicated at all. If you pull the suckers around, you are breaking a no trolling law. The law has been reaffirmed by a couple Conservation Congress votes over the years. It was once changed to allow backtrolling, but when the muskie guys started backtrolling 9 boards, changed back to NO trolling...the majority apparently want this traditional approach to remain in force up here.
You may control a drift or hold position over structure against the wind, adjusting back and forth, but you can't troll.
That's the law.
It's been voted on several times up here, and the muskie and walleye guys who wanted to troll many N WI waters lost that vote, big time.
At least we won the larger size limit issues for the most part. | |
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Posts: 580
| The problem with the reg, as written, is that it defines "position fishing" to include "maneuvering" with a motor to "position" OR "maintain a position". Note the key word: "OR".
To "maneuver", obviously a motor of some sort has to be "on"...which implies that your boat can be moving forward (or backward). But, when and if the boat is moving forward (or backward), your suckers will be "pulled around" or "dragged" and therefore not on a completely vertical line....which, as you say Steve, seems to be "trolling" and not legal...yet, the position fishing definition seems to allow it....hence, the ambiguity.
Controlling a drift in the wind with short bursts of a motor, or holding position against wind with use of a motor would seem to clearly be "positioning" rather than "trolling", but what if there isn't any wind that would necessitate a controlled drift? Do you have to pull your suckers up just to move forward 5-10' along a breakline while casting so that the suckers aren't "dragged" or "pulled around" for any period of time? Or, isn't that really just "maneuvering" the boat for purposes of "positioning" over underwater structure (which you are casting to), which seems to be legal by definition?
Again, like I said above, I think as long as the lines are vertical the majority of the time, and you are "maneuvering" forward via short bursts of the trolling motor, I think you are fine. And, my guess is that most wardens are pretty sensible about this, and I haven't heard of anyone actually getting a ticket. But every now and again I hear second-hand comments such as the one above where a warden says that "if your suckers are down and your trolling motor is on, you're getting a ticket...", which makes me scratch my head.
Anyways, sorry. Don't mean to go on and on. But, I really don't like how the reg is written, and I don't think it's accurate to say that it isn't complicated...more to the point, personally, I think the actual problem is the fact that there is a "no trolling" rule in the first place, from which has spawned this silly reg. But, that's just my own opinion.
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Posts: 2361
| No wind. Fishing with suckers. I don't see any way that use of the trolling motor could be considered anything other than trolling. The electric trolling motor is clearly propelling the suckers. Trolling. Simple stuff.
I would expect it is an easy case to make in court.
You can't propell a sucker with the trolling motor against the wind, or on a windless day. Vertical or strung 100 feet behind the boat=trolling.
They make oars. | |
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| SO if you don't have oar locks in your boat or your boat is too large to reasonably use a paddle you can't fish with suckers on a calm day unless you want to fish one exact spot , pull in the suckers, move to another spot,drop the suckers. Meanwhile the $5-7 suckers die from being hauled in and out of the water multiple times. Does that make a lot of sense?? I use short bursts on my trolling motor, let the suckers swim around, another burst, suckers swim. This is considered trolling? compac | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yes.
What many of you are missing completely is the fact we WERE able to backtroll a few years ago, and the DNR was just fine with that. A group of vocal, very active anglers reintroduced the trolling ban and the sportsmen and women...NOT the DNR, passed it and it was put back in to law.
The majority of the anglers up here want a no trolling atmosphere. Democracy at it's finest.
I'm not one of them. But, I'm fine with it because that's how things are supposed to work in the good old USA. | |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Terrible, ridiculous law.
But, after all, it is Wisconsin. Go string your single hook rigs along a half-mile of shoreline and don’t worry about a thing.
Just please, by God, don’t move a sucker with an electric motor.
JS | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | You should have voted to keep back trolling legal when we needed that vote. If you did, OK, but most of the people bitching about this have no clue what actually occured to get this clarified to the point is is now. Blame the other fishermen in WI, not the Warden or DNR. They are simply enforcing a law the majority wants. | |
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Posts: 2361
| Guest - 10/7/2010 6:04 PM
SO if you don't have oar locks in your boat or your boat is too large to reasonably use a paddle you can't fish with suckers on a calm day unless you want to fish one exact spot , pull in the suckers, move to another spot,drop the suckers. Meanwhile the $5-7 suckers die from being hauled in and out of the water multiple times. Does that make a lot of sense?? I use short bursts on my trolling motor, let the suckers swim around, another burst, suckers swim. This is considered trolling? compac
I'd write the ticket. That's what it is. No one makes anybody USE suckers, nor do they make anybody use them where it is illegal to troll. Nor does anyone make you buy them on a calm day, nor do they make you fish out of a big boat, and besides, on a calm day you can probably row a big boat around.
An awful lot of people seem to wander around this site wanting some justification for illegal and unethical behaviour. The rules aren't that difficult to understand. | |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Maybe my memory doesn’t serve me right, but wasn’t position fishing (backtrolling ban) an implemented DNR law? I don’t remember a vote on it (Vilas/Oneida). I could be wrong. Doesn’t matter, if there was a vote, or would be a vote, it would get shot down. But higher size limits are also routinely voted down (I do remember those landslide votes). Nice system we have up here, pretty cool having our laws decided by such brainiacs.
I know that if I see a boat with guys working a weedline with an electric motor, casting while a sucker hangs off the side of the boat those sobs are trolling and could really damage our fishery.
Bottom line, it is the law. Don’t let your motor move the bait/lure.
JS | |
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| Cmon.... I dont live in Wisconsin but this law is rediculous.
I agree with J.Sloan and that there are some real rocket scientists voting and making fish laws there. The position fishing law makes no sense to me or many of the guys I fish with. Matter of fact, many of the fish and game laws in the Wisconsin northwoods make zero to no sense to me.
Most of the people I fish with from Wisconsin feel that SOME of the laws are brainless.
In my opinion there is definately room for improvement. | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | J S, I agree, it's a goofy law, but it's what is wanted by the majority. I just don't thnk trolling of any sort is a problem, but many many do including a number of regulars here.
Yeah, pressure from the traditionalists and the CC had everything to do with the change back to no backtrolling.
Herbie screwed it all up for the rest of us...:)
JT, If these 'rocket scientists' who you fish with want the laws changed, they can get their whiny butts up off the stool and get involved in the CC process to get it done. They have a vote and the right to be heard, but if they don't participate in the democratic process, they are the problem, not those who actually DO.
NO trolling is legal ANYWHERE in Wisconsin unless that body of water is on the list allowing the technique. Why is that significant? The law is in place so the waters have to be approved rather than trolling being legal statewide and prohibited on certain waters. Think about it.
Here's the DNR's position. Same as mine and Mr. Sloan's, I think:
http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/faq/trolhist.htm
Why is everyone insulting the intelligence of those who don't want trolling up here? They are traditionalists who have reasonable arguments that DO make some sense when presented well, and they currently are the majority and are currently enjoying the law as they want things up here to be, soooooo-- we are smarter than them how? I bet those folks don't think our 'improvements' are needed.
Bitching form the sidelines is just plain weak. The folks I see voting I'll listen to. Those who don't participate in the process or have the slightest clue how the CC system (which I feel is a patently ridiculous way to manage game and fish) works, might as well talk to their OWN hand. | |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Steve,
Yes, I also insulted the intelligence of those who vote no to trolling, no on higher size limits, and celebrate single hook sucker fishing. This is one crowd (with exceptions, of course), that decides our fishing regulations. Just look at those who wanted to repeal the 50” on Pelican this year. I’m probably being too blunt, but I’m tired of it. Maybe wrong with the the insults, it’s just frustrating. I digress.
And no, we’re not sitting on the sidelines, but have been trying to get this tilt changed so that just maybe (long shot, we know) a fish biologist’s opinion is taken a little more seriously than a tavern patron when it comes to fishery management.
Am in full agreement that bitching on a message board is worthless, get out and get it done!
JS
ps - any good deer on the trail cams? | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | My point exactly, J, I know I preaching to the Choir with you. We can change this, there's enough support from the DNR, but the REAL support from the very folks who want the change if you ask them... isn't there when the vote is taken...why I have no idea.
The guys who tried to get the Pelican 50" limit repealed were a very small minority...and they were very quick witted for the most part and almost got a viable audience where none should be.
Yup, one very nice buck visiting the food plot and a couple borderline shooters, but it's just too warm to hunt them, at least for me. The deer ticks are unreal right now and mosquitoes not any better. 72 degrees tomorrow...this is nuts. | |
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Location: Des Moines IA | 80 degrees in Des Moines Saturday, gonna put a real wierd twist to Iowa bowhunting that's foresure ................. | |
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| "It is what the majority wanted" What if the majority doesn't want the natives to spear? It isn't a Democracy Sworall it is a Constitutional Repbublic here in the good old USA. I'll keep saying it until you figure out it isn't majority does whatever it wants. | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | DJS,
In this case, it is a simple majority vote that will get the proposed rule change or new rule accepted or rejected. Conservation Congress meetings, across the State. It's democracy, majority vote. Attend a meeting, maybe.
As you already know, the Federal Government entered into the Treaties with the Tribes. It's the Tribes RIGHT to fish. It's our PRIVILEGE. We can't vote away the treaties entered into between two sovereign governments.
If you don't take the time to get involved in the process or vote, you got nothing to say. Simple.
I never said the majority does whatever it wants.
That's a ridiculous comment.
Take the rest elsewhere, not interested in a bull#*#* argument over our government.
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| An awful lot of people seem to wander around this site wanting some justification for illegal and unethical behaviour. The rules aren't that difficult to understand.
1st 6 feet,
You make a pretty bold statement for not having a clue who I am. The position rule as stated by Matt above says you can maneuver your boat with a motor over underwater structure. The motor must be on. I am not turning the trolling motor on constantly. Using a paddle to move my "huge " 16.5 foot Alumacraft would be like stirring a drink with a hair. I use suckers to give my 6 and 10 year old sons, my nephews, and my inexperienced friends a chance to catch the fish that we all love. I teach ethical behavior to my students in my class and my Outdoor club which gives kids without the means to experience fishing. If I wasn't concerned that I was doing the right thing I wouldn't have posed the question in the first place. This isn't about voting down back trolling. (Anglers were setting out a string of planer boards and just going backwards .) This is a question about how a warden is going to interpret a vague and ambiguous position fishing rule. With any set of wardens, half of them would think it is legal and the other half would give you a ticket. What is wrong with this picture? | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This is what you posted anonymously:
'SO if you don't have oar locks in your boat or your boat is too large to reasonably use a paddle you can't fish with suckers on a calm day unless you want to fish one exact spot , pull in the suckers, move to another spot,drop the suckers. Meanwhile the $5-7 suckers die from being hauled in and out of the water multiple times. Does that make a lot of sense?? I use short bursts on my trolling motor, let the suckers swim around, another burst, suckers swim. This is considered trolling? compac'
No idea what compac means, but the simple and obvious answer is yes, you would be trolling; you are pulling the suckers around the lake. The point of discussing the backtrolling law was that for awhile, we were able to move about the lake freely pulling suckers so it has EVERYTHING to do with this discussion, added to the fact the DNR sees nothing biologically upsetting about allowing trolling of any kind. Now we can't troll, because a change in the rule was engineered by traditionalists.
Doesn't matter who is fishing or what your motivation is to get them a fish...if it's calm and you are pulling suckers around the lake, you are trolling. Short answer, don't do that, short bursts or in any fashion.
You'll also notice no one has stepped up and said they were ticketed and what they did to get that ticket...in years of talking about this.
There's nothing vague about the rule unless one wishes to stretch or question the interpretation and hope pulling a sucker around the lake isn't trolling, which I think was FSF's point. Don't pull suckers around with the boat, use your electric to control the boat holding on structure or doing a controlled drift (same thing but the weedline is the structure) and you are fine. Yes, if it's calm, you will pretty much have to hold steady.
I believe the question was answered, and I do not think FSF was addressing only you.
What's wrong with the picture is the DNR has done all they can to allow you to fish live bait and move about, but still are required to enforce the law. | |
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| Steve,
Read Todd M and Dan's posts at the start of this thread. Both supposedly from wardens but totally different interpretations of the rule. That is what I am talking about. I never stated I was pulling suckers all over the lake . I moved the boat about a boat length and then had the suckers swim around usually in a slack line. It took me 2 hours to fish 100 yards of a weedline.
Just because I posted and didn't type my name in it is fine for FSF to blast my character and make it personal and you have to defend him. That is BS. Don't worry I won't inconvenience this site again. | |
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Posts: 123
| Not a resident of WI so I don't know, but are most WI fishermen ok with the trolling ban? Has anyone tried or are they currently trying to repeal it? How many fish would really be effected by removing the ban on trolling? I'd increase the minimum size to keep muskies and lift the trolling ban. People are flocking to MN to catch some huge muskies right now and can troll 24/7 so I can't see how anyone can think lifting the ban on it would decimate the population of fish, unless you have a 30" minimum length restriction and a lot of uneducated anglers who are consuming them. MN doesn't seem to have that issue at all. Interesting topic. | |
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Posts: 2361
| J Lund - 10/7/2010 11:18 PM
Steve,
Read Todd M and Dan's posts at the start of this thread. Both supposedly from wardens but totally different interpretations of the rule. That is what I am talking about. I never stated I was pulling suckers all over the lake . I moved the boat about a boat length and then had the suckers swim around usually in a slack line. It took me 2 hours to fish 100 yards of a weedline.
Just because I posted and didn't type my name in it is fine for FSF to blast my character and make it personal and you have to defend him. That is BS. Don't worry I won't inconvenience this site again.
LOL!! 
Who said this site wasn't entertaining anymore??
#1 I certainly don't need Steve to defend me. Obviously your posts irritated him enough to respond.
#2 How can you accuse me of making it personal when YOU posted as a "guest"?
#3 I did not ever attempt or desire to "blast your character", and in fact I would consider it quite a challenge to do so. | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | lambeau,
No. read the DNR position link I posted. trolling has been illegal in WI since the 20's. the majority has voted against DNR proposed changes consistently since that time, with the exception of the backtrolling law, and that raised enough hell to make sure the majority will see to it the no trolling ban stays firmly in place into the future....unless a larger group chooses to educate the masses and take them on in the CC process.
The no trolling law creates the problem. I said that, clearly. The DNR then defined position fishing to allow controlled structure fishing with an electric motor so it would not be considered 'trolling'. So, no, it isn't a by product of poorly written regulations, it's a by product of a ban on trolling. Another integral portion of the law change was pulling spinners and bottom bouncers for walleyes, but if you don't fish them much, you wouldn't have heard much about that.
It's 'poorly written' if you can't do what you want to, I guess.
J Lund,
Both supposedly from wardens...the law is written allowing you to control drift and control over a structural element. It actually DOES seem some folks want to stretch it, you actually said you ARE or intend to in practice. How is one supposed to address that? All I did was my best to answer the question and indicate best as I can it isn't the DNR's position on trolling that's at issue here. Again...no one has ever come here and said they got a citation. Rampant misinterpretation of the law isn't happening in enforcement, obviously. And as I said, if you are behaving within the law, and you get a ticket, you should easily beat it in court, precedent was set years ago.
The issue was even more clouded a few years back, so the position fishing rule was crafted and was refined a few times, too. Why is it everyone says it's poorly written? I get it, reading it one time. You can't pull any presentation...suckers, leeches, night crawlers, artificials...anything... along with any of your motors because that is trolling and trolling is illegal. You CAN hold position against the wind as long as your line holds a vertical position..moving forward if you are blown back a bit is OK as long as the duration of that move against the wind is not rampant trolling. So drift and allow the wind to move you along making adjustments, and you are fine, Hold over a piece of structure, and you are fine. Pull your suckers along behind the boat if it's calm, against the wind, or obviously faster than the wind would move the boat along, and you are trolling.
There are hundreds of thousands of walleye and panfish folks who seem to have no problem interpreting what the law means, working their presentations, and staying within the law, and it is never a concern at all. Our wardens are faced with live bait use like this daily on any water where walleye and bluegill/crappie fishermen want to use a vertical jigging technique. I don't think this has come up on WalleyeFIRST in several years, and those folks use live bait all season long.
That includes me. I fish deep crappies and gills vertical jigging all late summer and fall. No issues, and I've been checked by a warden while fishing that technique several times. | |
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Posts: 580
| sworrall - 10/8/2010 8:25 AM
Why is it everyone says it's poorly written? I get it, reading it one time. You can't pull any presentation...suckers, leeches, night crawlers, artificials...anything... along with any of your motors because that is trolling and trolling is illegal. You CAN hold position against the wind as long as your line holds a vertical position..moving forward if you are blown back a bit is OK as long as the duration of that move against the wind is not rampant trolling. So drift and allow the wind to move you along making adjustments, and you are fine, Hold over a piece of structure, and you are fine. Pull your suckers along behind the boat if it's calm or against the wind, and you are trolling.
Steve, the problem with the written definition of "position fishing" is that it is written more broadly than how you've defined it, above.
You keep saying that you are ONLY allowed to use the trolling motor to HOLD your position or control a drift. But that's not what the definition says. As written, the definition says that you are allowed to use a motor (forward or backward) for "maneuvering" in order "to position" OR "maintain a position". Therefore, maneuvering forward or backward for boat positioning, with a motor, over underwater structure aptly describes BOTH "trolling" AND "position fishing". Do you not see that ambiguity?? And the definition is even more problematic which you consider that it is virtually impossible to keep a sucker line COMPLETELY vertical while a trolling motor is on (whether attempting to hold your position or control a drift)...so the definition basically defeats itself.
For a few years, I kept in my tackle box an email that I received second-hand from someone who contacted a warden to ask about whether they could legally cast to a weedline with suckers over the side of the boat, while using a trolling motor to move along the weedline. The warden's response (don't remember who it was, but if memory serves, it was a female warden) was that it was OK, as long as the sucker line was vertical the great majority of the time and the trolling motor was used only intermittently rather than in "constant on" such that the boat's forward movement was uninterrupted. (I wish I still had that email...don't know what I did with it).
That warden's response has always seemed to be the most reasonable interpretation of the position fishing definition...(although it does seem to be inconsistent with the notion that you can ONLY use the trolling motor to HOLD a position or control a drift).
Bottom line for me: I'll continue to hang a sucker over the side of the boat in conjunction with casting, and even on calm days I will continue to use the trolling motor intermittently while I move along the structure that I'm casting to.
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| trolling has been illegal in WI since the 20's. the majority has voted against DNR proposed changes consistently since that time, with the exception of the backtrolling law, and that raised enough hell to make sure the majority will see to it the no trolling ban stays firmly in place into the future....unless a larger group chooses to educate the masses and take them on in the CC process. i agree that there's strong opposition to trolling...although that's mostly limited to the NE portion of the state. it's the "state" law, but pretty much everywhere else in the state has passed exceptions to allow it. what i'm suggesting is that opposition to trolling is likely different than opposition to dragging suckers...and that because it's difficult to craft language in the law that separates them, the result is that dragging suckers gets lumped in with other methods of trolling. my belief is that if someone crafted language that separated them more clearly, there would be adequate support to allow pass the CC and clarify that it's ok to drag suckers with an electric motor while casting. in the meantime, i'll keep doing it because i believe i'm following the intent of the law. heck, even some wardens agree! if i bump into one who sees it differently, oh well. | |
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| Here's an instance, this past Sunday there was hardly a bit of wind to get the boat drifting at many times it was flat. Everybody was dragging suckers and going in different directions. I would cast a few times, hit the trolling motor and continue casting. Others had their trolling motors on constant while casting and draggin suckers. Even though I was intermittently using my trolling motor just to move us a few yards. What does a guy do in a situation like this? | |
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| Has anyone even been questioned by a warden, let alone get a ticket?
... just shut up and fish! | |
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Location: Racine, Wi | Matt,
I definitely see what you mean. So if you can use the trolling motor to maintain position on structure, who defines what the structure is? I could be fishing a 100 yard long weedline or a rock hump and moving around the structure. I'm pretty much using the trolling motor to maintain position on the structure from how I see it.
I personally don't have too many concerns on this law as most of the waters I sucker fish, I can troll too. However, obviously something needs to be done regarding clarification of the law.
With all of the interest this topic generates every year, I would think finding a group (similar to the Pelican Lake 50" boys) to get some grass roots effort to get clarification, or perhaps a repeal to the back trolling (or forward trolling) law. There can't be too many old timers up nort der left to fight the repeal of the law. ;). Like was said above, much of the state allows trolling outside of a few Northern counties for the most part (of course there are other counties with lakes you can and can't troll, but in general). I would think we could get support for this. Would take some effort, but it is possible. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The law is written so that you cannot legally pull live bait rigs or lures around with your motor.
"As written, the definition says that you are allowed to use a motor (forward or backward) for "maneuvering" in order "to position" OR "maintain a position".'
"You CAN hold position against the wind as long as your line holds a vertical position..moving forward if you are blown back a bit is OK as long as the duration of that move against the wind is not rampant trolling.'
Position fishing. The same thing.
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'aptly describes BOTH "trolling" AND "position fishing'
No, not at all. Pulling your lure behind the boat is trolling. Whatever else you do along with pulling your lure around the lake with your motor to position yourself, you are trolling, no matter how fast or slow you are going. If you are position fishing, you are basically holding on structure or performing a controlled drift. HUGE difference, and we all know what it is.
Look up the definition of trolling on the DNR website.
“Motor trolling” is trailing a lure, bait, or similar device used to attract or catch fish
from a boat while being propelled (forwards or backwards) by a motor or a sail or while
being towed by a boat being propelled by a motor or sail. Motor trolling is illegal except
in some counties and waters as listed in the section titled"
That means you are pulling the lure behind the rig, not adjusting your position on a reef or controlled drifting a weedline. The MOTOR is pulling along your suckers, not the wind, and/or you are not sitting still holding against the wind..
Don't pull suckers around the lake. If there is no wind, you had better not pull suckers along no matter how slowly if you want to remain within the law. You are risking a ticket if a Warden sees you doing that. Structure is structure. Following a weedline as the wind blows the boat down it, "using a motor (forward or backward) for "maneuvering" in order "to position" OR "maintain a position" is legal.
The position fishing rules were written so you CAN 'position fish', but CAN'T troll.
lambeau says we need to get special rules for pulling suckers. that's really what everyone is saying here. They would have to apply to ALL live bait presentations. We would be trying to legalize trolling, just going slowly. That would be an interesting read on what's 'slowly'. .8 to 1.2 is perfect for pulling slow death on boards. That's slowly.
It isn't 'old guys' railing against trolling on the no trolling waters. It's a cross section of all who vote at the 'town meeting' style CC hearings, and the vote, when the attempt has been made to open more waters across the state, has been a small majority state wide, not just locally.
Our best chance to get the law changed to allow trolling is on waters over 500 acres. Even better would be waters over 1000, but that is going to leave out a ton of good muskie lakes. | |
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| I don't know why everyone gets so bent out of shape over this year after year after year. There's a big difference between trolling suckers and working a reef/point/hump/weedline/etc. You know it, I know it, and the wardens know it. If you try to circumvent the trolling ban, you will probably get a ticket. If you're trying to stay within the law (i.e. NOT trolling) you probably will not. If you're just that up in arms about the trolling ban, there is a way. Build/buy a row troller, and get yourself a set of oars. You can work your suckers as fast as you can row. You can even drag around a Depthraider or three. | |
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Posts: 580
| sworrall - 10/8/2010 7:13 PM
Pulling your lure behind the boat is trolling. Whatever else you do along with pulling your lure around the lake with your motor to position yourself, you are trolling, no matter how fast or slow you are going. If you are position fishing, you are basically holding on structure or performing a controlled drift. HUGE difference, and we all know what it is.
Look up the definition of trolling on the DNR website.
“Motor trolling” is trailing a lure, bait, or similar device used to attract or catch fish
from a boat while being propelled (forwards or backwards) by a motor or a sail or while
being towed by a boat being propelled by a motor or sail. Motor trolling is illegal except
in some counties and waters as listed in the section titled"
That means you are pulling the lure behind the rig, not adjusting your position on a reef or controlled drifting a weedline. The MOTOR is pulling along your suckers, not the wind, and/or you are not sitting still holding against the wind..
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Very sorry to those sick of this topic, and I don't mean to go back and forth ad naseum, but I think we’re hung up on the definition of the words “maneuver” and “position” within the “position fishing” definition.
“Maneuver” (v.) is defined as “a controlled CHANGE in movement or direction”. (Emphasis added)
“Position” (n.) is defined as “a place or location”. “Position” (v.) is defined as “to put in place or position”.
So, “maneuvering” for “position”, as is legal per the position fishing definition, would include use of a motor for more than simply HOLDING your position against the wind, or CONTROLLING a drift with the wind: you are allowed to CHANGE the boat’s movement; you are allowed to CHANGE the boat’s direction; you are allowed to CHANGE the BOAT’S PLACEMENT; you are allowed to CHANGE the boat’s LOCATION over underwater structure….you may do all of these things with use of a motor, as long as the line remains vertical from rod tip to water.
The whole problem is that, typically, when the angler changes the boat’s location over underwater structure by moving the boat forward, e.g., trying to “position fish”, the motion of the boat “pulls” the sucker that is hanging over the side. As you point out, “pulling” the sucker via forward motion of the boat with a motor causes the sucker to trail, and since it’s trailing, but propelled by the motor, it’s also being “trolled.” And therein lies the rub. The angler can at the same time be attempting to “position fish” within the definition, yet at the same time be illegally “trolling”. It's simply unclear where "position fishing" ends and "trolling" begins. I previously thought most everyone (including myself) knew the difference, but after reading this thread I don't think that's true.
OK, sorry again, I am done going on and on and on.... | |
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Location: The desert | I think they should allow the Native Americans to troll. That might cause the site to overload. | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Matt,
Read the definition of trolling. That's your problem in understanding the position fishing rule. If you adjust position drifting along a weedline, the suckers will not 'trail behind the boat' for any length of time. It's obvious when a boat is position fishing allowing the boat to drift because of the boat position, where the lines are, etc. If that boat suddenly takes off in any direction and doesn't stop, they are trolling...boat position changes, suckers stay to the rear of the boat, and are pulled along.
On calm days, no matter what, you are probably trolling. But if you move along very slowly, and are obviously working a weedline or other structural element, you more than likely won't be ticketed. I think that's why we don't have a bunch of ticket stories told here.
Pointer,
They already can. | |
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| Pointerpride102 - 10/8/2010 11:29 PM
I think they should allow the Native Americans to troll. That might cause the site to overload.
They can spear, what the hell do they need to troll for? | |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "my belief is that if someone crafted language that separated them more clearly, there would be adequate support to allow pass the CC and clarify that it's ok to drag suckers with an electric motor while casting."
Dragging suckers is trolling, its a trolling ban or nothing. This would make for a way more difficult enforcement task than even trolling offers. Ok, a guy gets a backlash, changes rods, changes baits...do they have to pull suckers because they aren't casting?
There's a million places to troll in Wisconsin, if you want to troll, pick one of those lakes that allows it. I'm not understanding why people, while ignoring or making up phantom interpretations, have to troll up in Vilas county. The regs are pretty simple really. The "what if, and "But" crowd is doing nothing but trying to legitimize what they're doing. | |
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Posts: 580
| sworrall - 10/9/2010 9:13 AM
Matt,
Read the definition of trolling. That's your problem in understanding the position fishing rule. If you adjust position drifting along a weedline, the suckers will not 'trail behind the boat' for any length of time. .
Steve, thanks for the tip, but I've read it and I assure you that I thoroughly understand it....and I'll continue to suggest to you that "maneuvering" your boat for position over underwater structure (which is legal) contemplates more than simply making adjustments while drifting a weedline or holding your position against the wind...and by definition should allow an angler to use their trolling motor intermittently while casting with suckers over the side regardless of wind or no wind.
And by the way, lest everyone think this is a totally unimportant discussion, I have just been contacted by a person who was ticketed for "trolling" suckers...so everyone please be aware of the law and make sure you try to understand the differences in the definitions as best as you can.
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Location: The desert | My guess is he was ticketed because he broke the law. Pretty cut and dry. | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | '.and by definition should allow an angler to use their trolling motor intermittently while casting with suckers over the side regardless of wind or no wind.' Which it DOES with the exception of a calm day because of the straightforward definition of trolling. No wind--- pull suckers along with a trolling motor--- you are trolling. I can't help but continually get the same message from this discussion...folks want to find a way within the current regs that allows them to pull suckers along with a electric motor while casting. That's not going to happen.
Trying to define trolling to make it fit won't get it in court, either.
Stay within the spirit of the law, and you should be OK. | |
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| I've been out fishing with others in situations where one could attempt to justify what we were doing by calling it "position fishing". But when your suckers are parctically surfing behind the boat? We could have, and probably SHOULD have been ticketed for trolling. I don't think it's all that complicated - if your suckers are vertical, you're not trolling.
I agree with GMG - the people who are up in arms about this are trying to legitimize a method of fishing that simply isn't legal. Matt brings up a good point about where position fishing ends and trolling begins. If you want to split hairs, YES, moving the boat with suckers out is trolling. Any time the line is not vertical, that could be interpreted as trolling. I'd be willing to bet, though, that wardens aren't out there writing tickets for the occasional burst of the trolling motor that causes your lines to trail for a moment and then return to thieir vertical position.
It's like speeding - technically you ARE breaking the law if you're going 1 MPH over the limit. But even at 5MPH you aren't likely to get ticketed or even stopped and questioned. If you're working your boat in such way that allows your suckers to be vertical most of the time, I doubt you have anything to worry about. | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The position fishing law was written long after the definition of trolling specifically to allow anglers to use their motor to position a boat while holding on structure or on a controlled drift. There's no splitting hairs...everyone knows the difference between holding on a reef edge, staying on a drift line, and pulling a presentation along behind the boat. The last paragraph applies if the angler is 'pushing' it...but not blatantly trolling, and that is what everyone seems to want to be 'OK' to do. Push it a bit, you are probably OK but still outside of the law. Push it too much, and just like EA's example.... | |
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| Seems fair enough to call it at least an ambiguous law, or their wouldn't be so much discussion over it. Every year you get this discussion again. Seems like there is the 'letter of the law', and then there's a tolerance applied. I've been in more than one area guide's boat that does hang a live sucker over the side of the boat while slowly trolling along the bank or over a hump somewhere. We've never been on the receiving end of a ticket yet...but there's always that possibility if Barney Fife is on patrol one day.
The written law in several states only allows for a 55 mph speed limit on most 2-lane highways. But it's not uncommon to pass of troopers all day long while doing 62 and not get ticketed. Was the law broken? Yes, as it's written. But there seems to be some reasonable tolerance allowed for it under some circumstances. The same seems to apply to Wisconsin position fishing---but it's a roll of the dice.
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| sworrall - 10/9/2010 2:27 PM
'.and by definition should allow an angler to use their trolling motor intermittently while casting with suckers over the side regardless of wind or no wind.' Which it DOES with the exception of a calm day because of the straightforward definition of trolling. No wind--- pull suckers along with a trolling motor--- you are trolling. .
Steve,
I respect your opinion a great deal, but I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
Fact is, there are no exceptions to the position fishing rule for calm days. Position fishing is legal on all waters of the state, 100% of the time. Period.
The non-trolling rule does not trump the position fishing rule...and vice versa. Laws don't work that way. Instead, if possible, a court will interpret two conflicting laws in such a way that neither are rendered superfluous or invalid. Regardless of how simple you say it is, there is a grey area between these two definitions.
As I said in my first post on this thread, I think the key concept is keeping sucker line vertical the great majority of the time, and the trolling motor is only used intermittently. If that is the case, with or without wind, both the "position fishing" and "trolling" definitions can peacefully co-exist without conflict.....KUM-BA-YAH.... | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Trolling is illegal in Wisconsin except for waters listed. No trolling means no trolling, and that's that. Position fishing is allowed holding on a piece of structure or executing a controlled drift. If you are not drifting...you can't do anything but sit still, unless you use your motor to move down a breakline...right? By definition, you'd then be trolling. You had better not go faster than the drift would carry the boat. If there's no wind to move you along on a drift, and you pull your suckers along, no matter how slowly, you are trolling by the definition in the law. The position fishing rule was put in place to allow live bait fishing while holding on structure and drifting while making adjustments to control your position on a piece of structure keeping your line vertical or nearly so the majority of the time. If the wind is blowing out of the west, and your boat's pointed to the west, the only adjustment allowed is holding on that piece of water, eg. moving back west a if a gust of wind pushes you east a bit off the structure.
If you are drifting to the east on a breakline, you may adjust a bit to the north or south to control the position of the boat's drift, but you cannot trail the suckers behind the boat with your motor heading east faster than the drift would allow in the process...because if you do you are trolling. If you take off trailing the suckers going ANY direction for any length of time, you are trolling. A warden watching you with field glasses will watch for bursts of movement down the breakline indicating you are trailing the suckers behind the boat using your motor. Trolling.
Your intent needs to be to NOT to pull the suckers along behind the boat if you wish to remain within the law.
lf you pull your rigs around the lake on a calm day and a warden is watching, you risk a ticket. | |
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Location: The desert | The problem lies in people trying to interpret the law for more than what it is. Just like speeding, the law is exactly what it is. Will every cop pull you over for any mph over the posted limit? No, some will pull you over for 5 mph, 10 mph, 15 mph...all depends on who is patrolling on a given day. | |
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| sworrall - 10/9/2010 5:49 PM
Position fishing is allowed holding on a piece of structure or executing a controlled drift. .
That is not how its definition reads. Perhaps that was the intent of the reg. But it reads much more broadly to include any maneuvers with the boat for positioning over underwater structure.
If the definition of position fishing was intended to be as narrow as you are defining it, it could very easily have been drafted as such. It could have drafted nearly verbatim to how you are defining it. But it wasn't.
I do agree with your examples, forward maneuvering on a calm day implicates trolling for sure. That's my whole point, and that's why there is a problem with the position fishing definition. An angler can both be obedient to the letter of the position fishing rule and also breaking the the non-trolling law at the same time. Same act can be considered legal and illegal at the same time. Neither reg should have precedence over the other...but where it apparently leaves us is with varying interpretations from warden to warden as to how much "positioning" can you do before you start "trolling"...
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| Pointerpride102 - 10/9/2010 6:09 PM
The problem lies in people trying to interpret the law for more than what it is.
Sure.
Or, you'd agree, people trying to interpret the law for LESS than what it is. | |
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Location: Waukesha, WI | The last time that I drifted a sucker, that darn sucker keep passing my boat. I was obviously breaking the rule that the line needed to be vertical. So I guess I was eligible for a ticket.
food stamps or pay checks.
gene | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | “Position fishing”
is fishing from a boat where the fishing line extends vertically into the water
while the boat is maneuvered (forwards or backwards) by a motor used to position or
maintain the position of the boat over underwater structure. Position fishing is allowed
statewide in all waters.
I have no idea how that could be more clear.
Trolling is trailing a lure behind a boat using a motor, sail, etc.
Also very clear.
Not much more to be said.
Matt, agreed, spirit of the law. Pointer, agreed, some want to push it past the intent the law. I wouldn't, but that's me. | |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Lunkerhunter,
If the sucker is passing the boat, then it is NOT being trailed behind by a Motor. But you already know that... | |
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Position Fishing