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Posts: 572
| I received an email from Cabela's (see copy below) about EPA may ban lead in fishing tackle. When I clicked on "clicking here", it took me to the following
Oppose the Proposed Federal Ban on Lead in Fishing Tackle
http://www.capwiz.com/keepamericafishing/issues/alert/?alertid=1635...
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"September 2, 2010
Dear Cabela's Customer:
Occasionally, an issue of such importance arises we feel it necessary to contact our loyal customers. With our fishing rights at stake, this is such an issue.
On August 23, 2010, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency was petitioned by the Center for Biological Diversity and others to ban lead from ammunition and fishing tackle, including sinkers, jigs, weighted fly lines and components containing lead, such as brass and ballast in lures, spinners, stick baits and other fishing products.
On August 27, the EPA denied the petition regarding ammunition, but let stand the petition to ban lead in fishing tackle and has opened a short period for taking public comment.
Such a ban would cause prices of fishing products to skyrocket. Alternative metals can cost from six to 15 times more than lead, and most do not perform as well. For many, fishing would no longer be the affordable sport it is now.
Please join Cabela's and Keep America Fishing in opposing this ban by submitting your comments to the EPA no later than September 15, 2010. You can easily do so by clicking here.
It is a fast and easy way to assure your opinion is heard.
Cabela's is working in conjunction with the American Sportfishing Association and Keep America Fishing to protect our tradition and heritage of fishing.
Thank you for your help.
Sincerely,
Cabela's " |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
So it the jist of the opposition to this is that prices could go up on fishing tackle?
(6-15 times more is not accurate either, alternative metals are used all the time and the price increase is nowhere near that)
I guess we should only change our ways only if it doesn't cause us any "pain"?
JS |
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | I only use brass weights in my lures, use brass worm weights for bass fishing, tungsten and ceramic weights and jigheads. It might be a little more expensive now, but with the market growing pricing will come down. It is the right thing to do to save ducks, loons and raptors. Actually, some of the tungsten and composite materials do a better job than lead. Plus, many of the non-lead companies are American based. WHICH is why our friends at Cabelas are against this. The huge amount of private labeled tackle is coming from China and lead is cheap and high margin. I guess I would support American companies who are using non-lead materials. |
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Posts: 108
| If we are talking about musky tackle, do you really think it will increase cost that much? Off hand, I can only think of the keel weights in bucktails or the heads in soft plastics as being a significant source of lead in musky gear. Why should we fight against removing a known neurotoxin from our fishing tackle? Just seems like there are a lot more "real" issues facing fishing in the coming years that will need our attention and efforts.
-Conservation Guy |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Every glider you buy has lead in it. This little bit of "pain" would basically eliminate an entire class of lures from being manufactured by most of the people out there. Honestly, how is the lead in a 10" jerkbait going to negatively affect the ecosystem? Not to mention that some of these other metals are no safer then lead.
Is there really that much lead being left on the bottom of our waters for this to be anything but an anti-fishing bill? |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
So you can't make a glider unless you use lead?
Is outlawing lead in shotgun shells an anti-hunting law?? Don't think so.
People who oppose fishing may support a lead ban, but we shouldn't be against a positive measure because someone we don't agree with on other issues also supports it.
JS |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | I sent the email. This is an anti-fishing ban. The environmentalists want to ban hunting and fishing. They will come with these "petitions" again and again and we have to stand up to them.
The amount of lead deposited by fishing is incredibly small. It is not like shooting ducks wth lead shot where a hunter may deposit several onces of lead into the environment on any given day. The average fisherman deposits that much lead into the enviroment over their lifetime.
The fact is that most lead in fishing tackle is not even hazardous to waterfowl or the environment. Only the smallest sinkers have any potential danger to waterfowl. That is because the lead has to be small enough to be confused with fine gravel - which waterfowl use to help digest their food. That is why lead shot can be a problem. It is small enough, especially 4 shot and smaller, to be confused with fine gravel. Larger lead shot in the buckshot class actually poses no threat to waterfowl because it is to big.
There have been and will be more attacks on fishing and hunting. For instance, the very strong emissions standards placed on outboard motors in recent years was done so without any evidence that the old style motors were causing any environmental problems. While they were noisy and smelly, they did not poise a threat to the enviroment. The emmissions and oil were simply not enough to cause harm on most waters. Many have claimed that the new emissions standards were designed to eliminate the inexpensive class of outboard motors, increase the cost of outboard motors, and thusly restrict fishing and watersports by making them less affordable.
The attacks from the radical enviromentalists are often masked under "clean water" and "clean air" regulations. But they are attacks nonetheless. And their goal is clear - to restrict the general populations access to the natural resources.
Funny thing is how many of these so-called "environmentalists" like John Kerry and Al Gore who would have us fishing out of row-boats and living in small apartments own very large houses and yachts.
And so it goes. |
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| The only problem I see with this is a need to grandfather in lead tackle that is already out there. There is no way I am going to get rid of $5000 in muskie and walleye tackle over a lead ban. Thats terrible. If its a from this point forward all tackle made needs to be lead free thats a different story, I would support that. The price increase is a poor excuse and is a bunch of BS. Once items are mass produced the cost will not be noticed. Just my 2 cents. |
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Posts: 108
| First a lead ban, then what - stopping invasive species? Those #*^@ liberals. Maybe this will cause a black market for lead weights and shady exchanges occurring at boat landings around the Midwest. Worse yet, that black market lead will probably have a lot of impurities! Do you really think changing out lead weights is going to make fishing inaccessible? I suppose gas prices that will shoot past $4 when the economy recovers is not an issue right? I suppose those same environmentalist will try and make our trucks more efficient too!
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | John, availability of material is a big problem not to mention that the qualities of them are different as well. Would it be impossible to make one? Probably not. Would it effectively stop production for many people? Probably.
I ask again, what harm would a couple oz of lead in a 10" glider or 14" Jake cause? I can see how people wouldn't want jigs and lead weights out there, but to outlaw all tackle with lead in it goes over the top IMOP. Infact there was a do-gooder that came door to door a few years back with a petition when MN was considering the ban. I got a Mag Treat out and asked him if it should be banned. He said of course not but I pointed out to him that according to the language it would be. Needless to say he didn't have an answer for that... |
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Posts: 1220
| This is a copy of the first comment I made on this issue on another site:
I suppose I was a natural to comment on this one. The Junkman moniker comes from 33 years now in the metal business. As commented above, we clearly don't need to make stuff for fishing out of lead. A jig head made of tungsten will be just over half the size, fall through the water column a whole lot faster to where you want to present it and transmit "feel" of the bottom and bites to such an increase in sensitivity that you will NEVER switch back, same for drop shots and many other applications. You don't want lead near where you touch, where you eat, or where you let your kids go swimming. There is likely to be no bigger threat to the ability for a lot of urban kids to learn than the lead in the paint still common in older homes. It is a terrible thing to injest, even though there are still a lot of things that we need to make out lead. If I want to sign something like this Cabella's letter, it's because I don't like do-gooders trying to do good all over my rights any more than the rest of you......but I won't sign it. I'll say the same thing my old man said to me when I was a lazy kid who didn't want to get out of bed and go to work in the morning...."GET THE LEAD OUT"
Marty Forman
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I would agree that the lead used in large lures, spinnerbaits, bucktails etc. would not fall into the harmful category of sinkers, jigs etc. I would think a proper stance on this would be to have a ban on lead products of a certain size.
I strongly disagree with the conspiracy theories out there that claim this is nothing more than an attempt at a fishing ban.
That the same crap the spearers are saying about the muskie fishermen. Slot limits for pike on MN waters are the work of the Muskie Clubs to ban spearers. They don't care about the positive affects of the slots, they can't see the trees through the forest. ( or however that saying goes.)
Herb your statement about the old motors not being any kind of an environmental threat is ridiculous. I remember seeing the oil and gas my old 2-strokes put in the water. Are you actually saying that increasing motor efficiency and reducing emissions is not a positive thing, and it was done specifically to get at fishermen?? Seriously?? Most of the boats sold in the USA are not even fishing boats.
JS |
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Posts: 225
Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | This is a great discussion, and is kind of turning my opinion on it. I was initially (and still am, essentially) against the ban, but maybe that's just me being lazy. I love building lures, and to this point have done all my weighting with lead... tire weights are cheap, I have a bunch of 'em, and can melt and pour them in my driveway. But I don't know anything about working with alternative, less toxic metals. Marty, are there other metals I would be able to acquire that I could work with at home? And if so, could you recommend any sources for them?
I would agree that some kind of grandfathering would make this a lot easier to get behind. Since I started making baits, I find myself using fewer and fewer store-bought lures, but for those guys out there with hundreds or thousands invested in Bulldawgs, etc, this would really be a kick in the pants. |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | I oppose the ban because like it says the data does not support the ban. Lead shot from shotguns in water yes. If there are any bans on lead fishing tackle it should be limited to small ingestable split shot not ballast in lures or large lead weights like down rigger cannon balls. Birds dont eat lures but they can ingest small shot. This ban or law needs to be specific and target only items that can be swallowed by Birds. Smal split shot can easily be replaced. Poured Lead pockets in large lures such as Musky lures can not . I have responded to the EPA through this post thank you. I am also writing both my Senator and Congressman. No more Blanket laws that hurt more then they help. Mike |
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Posts: 1220
| Back to Gus, unfortunately you are never going to make stuff out of tungsten (also called carbide and Wolfram--Wolfram invented it and that's why the chemical symbol is W) in your driveway. It's made from "Powder Metalurgy" where you have to take powder metal, use something like powdered copper for the glue and then bake it in an expensive thing called a sintering oven. It ain't going to work at home. Still, just try using a tungsten jig-head, drop-shot, or other application and when you drag your bait over a rock, you will immediately notice the jaring feel that is transmitted so much more clearly than the dull thud that lead makes. You will know your bottom and your bites with so much better intel that you will simply never switch back. You are also in real danger--even outdoors in your driveway being around molten lead. It is a metal in our environment that we really will do better without. I say, just take the steps you can take now. Please keep in mind, you use lead because it melts at a low temp you can create at home and because it is cheap---not because it is good. All the electrical guys and the plumbers said they couldn't replace the lead they use in the solder---but they clearly have found a way to do it, once they were pushed.
Marty Forman |
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Posts: 1207
Location: Pigeon Forge TN. | We have been using lead for many many years and the human race is still alive today. Everytime the EPA or Government get involved in this crap, It almost always goes wrong and still ends up making us pay for their stupidity. IMO I wouldn't mind banning the small stuff that can be eating by birds or what have, you but the large stuff and so on as mentioned above and also bullets are not really needed to be banned.
Edited by Stan Durst 1 9/8/2010 11:38 AM
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Posts: 225
Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | Marty- thanks for the response. Is there anything else you could recommend for us basement guys? I don't want to turn this into a basement-bait discussion (would you be willing to continue the discussion via PM?) but I would like to be proactive. If the ban happens, I'd like to know how I can continue doing what I love... but even if it doesn't happen, I wouldn't mind 'getting the lead out', as you say. Any suggestions? Thanks... really appreciate it! |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Stan; I would say your blanket statement is a little far-fetched. There are many chemicals/metals that are unquestionably lethal to humans and animals that are no longer in use because of the govt. agencies you are denouncing.
I guess you've never heard of what lead paint can do to children??
Many of them were used commonly in agriculture and manufacturing in the US. I for one am glad that somebody out there can monitor what is going on in the world because you or I can't do it.
JS |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | JS,
Yes, the old motors, if tuned properly, do not put enough oil in the water to cause an enviromental problem. There was no environmental evidence to impose the new outboard emissions standards. Yes, they are unsightly and stinky, but they do not actually hurt anything because there just isn't enough oil left on or in the water to matter.
While the new standards have decreased emissions and the new motors do have improved fuel economy, the reasons provided for the new standards were not valid. The end result was that an entire class of lower-priced outboard motors have been eliminated from the market. Four-stroke and new direct injection 2 stroke motors cost significantly more than the older motors. And that cost increase has made boats, whether they be for fishing or recreational use, more expensive. And the more expensive something becomes, the fewer people there are who have access to it.
I'm not saying that having cleaner and more efficient motors is a bad thing. What I don't like is when something is banned without justification or with invalid justification.
Some things need to be banned, but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere. Almost anything can be dangerous in certain sitiuations. For instance, it can be argued that all hooks should be banned because someone, somewhere might step on an old hook and be injured. Would you be for that? |
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| john skarie - 9/8/2010 11:38 AM
I guess you've never heard of what lead paint can do to children??
John ate lots of lead chips when he was a kid and he's still angry about it! |
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Posts: 1220
| First to Gus, glad to PM anytime, next: about these conspiracy theories....I'd say turn on your TV (any channel) watch for at least a couple of hours (shorter in the late night hours) and you will see one law firm after another looking for folks who suffer from mesothemeoma (asbestosis) due to exposure from being around asbestos. When we were kids, NOBODY could have told you that it was as bad as it was, and it was literally all over your house, from the floor under your feet, the insualtion around the oven your mom used to bake chocolate chip cookies and the insualtion in the attic. Why are the lawyer's rushing to find the guys who actually worked where this stuff was made? It's because everybody (and his brother) now knows that this stuff made people sick and the folks who owned those factories will still pay for the caskets---also because these poor guys are dying before they can even call the lousy lawyer. You have no reason to trust me on this, but asbestos is not even in the same class with something as dangerous as lead. You only need to "touch" it to suffer bad effect. With asbestos, you have to, at least, breathe in very tiny particles that are usually ensapsulated and safe to be around before you get in trouble. When I think about all the lead split-shot sinkers that I have closed around a fishing line with my teeth......well then it's no wonder my wife (and her mom) thinks I'm stupid!! Marty |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Herb your claim that there was no valid reason to make motors cleaner and more efficient is based on what exactly?
Why would we make higher standards for other engines and not marine ones? I suppose there is no valid reason to make any motor of any kind more efficient or cleaner because that may increase the price?
JS
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | John,
I am not saying that increased fuel economy and cleaner motors are a bad thing. Gosh, I own one of the new four-strokes. I have a 115 Yamaha four-stroke and it runs much cleaner and efficiently than my old 48 HP Evenrude did. But I did so out of choice. I would have bought the new four-stroke regardless of any regulation.
The problem I have is the EPA imposed a defacto ban on the old motors when there was no justificable science for doing so. The reasons for doing so were political and not environmental. The EPA, by law, cannot regulate something just because they want to or because they don't like something. By law, they must have justification and they had none. They just did it anyway and no one complained. Boat manufacturers actually liked it because then they could charge more for motors and make more money. And many people like the new motors better. But, still, what they did was eliminate an entire class of outboard motors.
Lead can be a health problem, but nothing like the health risks imposed by mercury. And do you know how much mercury is in those new soon-to-be government mandated light bulbs? Each of those bulbs has enough mercury to make someone seriously ill. Disposing of them is a pain and be careful to never break one accidently. They are an environmental disaster waiting to happen. And the funny thing is that most households that use them actually use more energy because they are less likely to turn off unused lights. People think that because the new bulbs are more efficient there is no need to turn off the lights.
Our goverment in action.  |
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Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | I'd match the number of leadhead jigs I have against most tackle shops. I see that weights & jigheads which are easily lost while in use are a direct source of lead into the H2O. I would even support a over time or exchange type program for some types of lead baits. The lead in crankbaits and other lures is another story in my mind. If it ever came down to the warden checking your tackle box for lead, which is what is desired by some...then we'll wish we would have voiced our opinions sooner & louder. There are no freedoms that someone is not plotting to take away. |
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| I'm OK with a ban on using lead in fishing products. There are other heavy, but yet soft metals available for use that are both easy to work with in making jig-heads, weights and the like...but at the same time have FAR more of a nice look to them. For example: GOLD!!!
First, it's just so darn pretty on it's own that we could save a bunch of dollars on the un-needed paint. And since when you really get right down to it many fishermen don't collect lures to actually USE them anyway, the ones accented with gold weights would only add to the prestige of a fine looking lure collection!
Something to think about... |
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Posts: 28
Location: Sauk Centre MN | I believe that this might clear this one up. It says the EPA denied the petition regarding ammunition but I think going here and commenting might serve better.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/0/48D939B5009411038525778C...
Edited by dmack 9/8/2010 4:08 PM
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Posts: 173
Location: Probably Minnesota that time... | Do you think they will stop at shotgun shells?
-Chris  |
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| I have a question for CONSERVATION GUY. What is like to tow a boat with a Prius?
Troll back on over to MoveOn.org and create your Socialist Utopia somewhere else. |
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Posts: 1207
Location: Pigeon Forge TN. | John, I didn't intend to make a "blanket" statement I know that getting rid of lead based paint and a few other things has saved lots of lives. But the Government still screws things up far more than they do right. I know this is a fishing board but a good example will be to watch the new health care package the Government has installed and see what will become the final result. There just are somethings they should stay out of and leave well enough alone.
A lot of very good examples could be brought up but this a fishing board so this is not the place.
Stan |
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Posts: 108
| Yes, DJS a socialist utopia, where we have more efficient trucks. The point being made is that if you think changing from lead will be prohibitively expensive, think about how minuscule it is in relation to the cost incurred when fuel prices rise. According to your definition of utopia, wouldn't the argument being made for the lead weights be considered a utopian argument? Everyone here is attempting to make the argument that getting rid of lead will raise prices and make fishing less accessible to the masses and my argument is that if this is the criteria, there are some much bigger battles to fight. |
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| I look forward to the day that when I rise out of bed in the morning and I need to call the government hotline so they can tell me the most efficient route I should use on the way to the bathroom and how long I can turn the lights on and how much water I can use for my shower. The above statement is only absurd until it becomes our reality and then we'll all ask, "How did this happen?".
It starts with a ban on lead and then what? Is there a harmful chemical in fishing line? |
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin |
25,000 Boat
5,000 Locators / GPS
4,000 Fishing tackle
5,000 Fishing rods and reels (conservative)
Having to spend 1 more dollar for lead free jigheads OUTRAGOUS!!!!! |
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| The above statement is only absurd until it becomes our reality and then we'll all ask, "How did this happen?". It starts with a ban on lead and then what? Is there a harmful chemical in fishing line? that's the kind of nonsense people used to say about Asbestos and Mercury and DDT and PCBs...and without those "absurd" government regulations and clean-up efforts, no one would be fishing muskies in the Fox River or Green Bay right now. i'm not a fan of government over-regulation unless it's sensible and necessary, which i think it is in this case. i like loons, and i can fish just fine using other kinds of weights in my lures. |
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Posts: 1220
| I think that one of the hardest things to do in life is to sort out what folks are telling you because they have their own agenda at heart, or whether they really care about you. Some folks, like the ones who end up working at the DNR can be more confusing than others. They can seem totally out of touch with reality one minute, and then the next minute you see them do something that puts more healthy fish in the lakes and more healthy deer in the woods. It's no different with politics when you think the Dems are always going to stick up for the unions and the GOP is always going to stick up for the fat cats who own the oil companies. Life presents too complex a canvas to be painted with just one brush. I agee that when somebody shows up and says, "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help," the heapingest teaspoon of doubt is fully in order. On the other hand, they put up stop signs at intersections where your kid might have been hit by a car, and developed a car seat that has kept plenty of them from crashing through the windshield. So, the argument really needs to get away from WHO is telling you to buy a different kind of split-shot sinker, and move strictly into the area of WHETHER it is smart "as and angler" to choose a different product. Marty Forman |
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Posts: 225
Location: Nordeast Minneapolis |
Having to spend 1 more dollar for lead free jigheads OUTRAGOUS!!!!!
That's kind of the question, though... What constitutes a jighead? A Bulldawg/SuperD/Suzy Sucker could technically be a jig, couldn't it? It's soft plastic twister tail cast around what is essentially a giant jig. I'd bet a lot of bucktails have a lead egg sinker behind the hair or flash to get enough weight in the lure. So that's a lead sinker, right? And most every wood bait has some weight buried in it to run properly. While the lead may be more or less 'contained' in any given bait, it still (most likely) has some in it.
If we're going to consider this as something similar to the dangers of asbestos, could existing lures be grandfathered in the same way? My 1925 house has asbestos. It's still intact, not flaking (or becoming 'friable'), and not currently a health risk. New homes shouldn't use it, but mine has it... that doesn't mean I can't use my house.
I'd be much more inclined to support this legislation if there was some clarity on what the ban actually means. If it's that no lures containing lead may be used, that's one thing. If it's that no lures may be produced (after a certain date) that contain lead, that's something else. |
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| If it can be done within a reasonable cost, I am in favor of banning lead. I prefer not to touch the stuff. When I work on my lures in the kitchen, I wipe down the table after I am done, and I am still nervous about it.
Brian
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| seems the critical issue (besides ensuring waterfowl don't eat gravel-like lead pieces) is lead solubility in water. e.g. Does it just sit there as a big inert chunk or dissolve into our water?
from http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/water/lead/lead-and-water.htm bold font is mine
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In what way and in what form does lead react with water?
Under normal conditions lead does not react with water. However, when lead comes in contact with moist air reactivity with water increases. A small lead oxide (PbO) layer forms at the surface of the metal. When both oxygen and water are present, metallic lead is converted to lead hydroxide (Pb(OH)2):
2Pb(s)+ O2(g) + 2H2O(l) -> 2 Pb(OH)2(s)
Solubility of lead and lead compounds
Elementary lead does not dissolve in water under normal conditions (20oC, and pressure = 1 bar). It may however occur dissolved in water as PbCO3 or Pb(CO3)22-. A well-known example of a water soluble lead compound is lead sugar (lead(II)acetate), which derived its name from its sweet nature.
Lead frequently binds to sulphur in sulphide form (S2-), or to phosphor in phosphate form (PO43-). In these forms lead is extremely insoluble, and is present as immobile compounds in the environment. Lead compounds are generally soluble in soft, slightly acidic water.
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| And if the water is slightly acidic, say from sulphur dioxide would lead then be water soluble. On another point is this ban the sky is falling type thing, maybe even initiated by anti-gun proponents as a back door effort to close shooting ranges. Water temps are falling and I am just so darn happy I could just poop.  |
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Posts: 32884
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If there's no lead in fishing, whom shall we follow?
Sorry, had to. Long freaking week. |
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Posts: 69
Location: Pittsburgh | WE SHALL FOLLOW THE FISHING GOD MEPPS SON OF CISCO BROTHER TO LEGEND COUSIN OF WILEY AND LEO GRANDSON OF HEDDON AND RAPALA 
Posts like this is the reason Im called simple
Edited by Simple fisherman 9/10/2010 3:47 PM
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oppose the federal ban on lead in fishing tackle